Hey, anyone answer this. What do you do when he doesn't care to make this marriage thing work and we live day to day just going by the motions to get thru it for the kids? When you REALLY dont love him and he doesnt love you? But he doesn't care to counsel, work it out or try, just go on day to day? Its driving me NUTS+

You thank your lucky stars that he's staying there with you, where you can have an influence on him, first of all. Then you either get counseling for yourself, aimed at helping you learn how to change your marriage without his help, or you get the mini-library of relationship help books that I've purchased over the last few weeks. I'll list the titles/authors I have purchased:<p>"Give and Take" and<br>"His Needs, Her Needs" Dr. Willard Harley Jr.<br>"Divorce Busting" Michele Weiner-Davis<br>"How to Get Your Lover Back" Blaise Harris MD<br>"The Five Love Languages" Gary Chapman<br>"Overcoming Relationship Impasses"<br> John L. Duncan PsyD, Joseph W. Rock PsyD<p><br>I have borrowed "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" and "Mars and Venus In Love" by John Gray, PhD. And I have "Surviving An Affair" by Dr. Willard Harley Jr. and Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers.<p>I have so far completed "How to Get Your Lover Back" and "The Five Love Languages" and am about halfway through "Give and Take", "Divorce Busting" and "Surviving An Affair", while being about 1/3 of the way through "Men Are From Mars ..." I'm not going to read "His Needs, Her Needs" until I am done with some of the others. Since my husband is supposed to be leaving this week, I won't have to worry about meeting his needs for a while <p>I would suggest you first read "The Five Love Languages" and "Give and Take" very first of all. And for you, "His Needs, Her Needs" might be a really important one to read, too.<br>All of the relationship books I am reading believe that one person can change the direction of a marriage or other relationship by changing how he or she acts.<p>Good luck...<p>terri

Thanks Terri - I have bought a lot of books and some have helped me; some not. (or they do for a time) - and I have already done the counseling thing (twice) FOR ME. Nevertheless, I continue to find myself being the ONLY one to break down the barriers and make things better. I think he knows that and I think thats why it doesn't bother him; becuase he KNOWS how faithful and committed to this marriage I am - he has nothing to worry about because he thinks I'll never go anywhere. Why SHOULD he change?

cndy (Terri too)<p>I know that "love" doesn't deal in threats and ultimatums, but what do Dr. Harley's books say about a partner who won't "negotiate"? I know with affairs, he does say to separate until the straying partner gives up the lover. <p>I wonder if informing your H (in as loving a way as you can muster) that since he is not participating in making your marriage "real" and refusing to negotiate, that you WILL pursue separation and divorce would be effective. He did make a vow to you, as well as you to him. I think that his refusal to communicate and negotiate is breaking his vow.<p>If all else fails (your attempts to work with him) then would this be an option? Wouldn't telling him that you're entitled to happiness be appropriate? I don't think being miserable would be good for your kids anyway. <p>If you said to him: "I love you and want to work together to live the way God intended husbands and wives to live. If you don't want that, then maybe we should separate." What would he do? <p>Do you really *not* love him anymore? Or are you just so hurt and angry because you *do* love him and he's hurting you so?<p>It sounds to me like you've really tried hard, and been honest with him. If you're miserable, the kids will know it. <p>I wish you the best! Please keep us informed.<p>Val<p>[This message has been edited by V (edited 11-10-98).]

Val - what you say is what I should do - and should have already done. <br>BUT, let me explain. Yes - I do love him. I do not love the way he treats me or love the way our relationship has ended up. But I would love more than ever for him to smell the roses and at least "try" at what could be and once was a good marriage. I hate, truthfully HATE having this one sided relationship and letting my kids see that. BUT, here's the flip side. <br>Divorce. I have been there. 9 years ago. And have two kids who have felt the effects of it (though me and my ex have a decent relationship as well as he and the kids) - and I vowed after 3 years of being single and getting remarried that I would NEVER, EVER go thru divorce and the pain again. For myself or for my kids. They were torn, I was torn, we were financially struggling, we went thru a heck of a lot of fear, emotions, and tears. And we survived and went on. They are great kids and straight A students; they have great friends; they are in good groups, and they love our life. We have a nice home, they go to good schools. <br>Since that time I have remarried and this has been 6 years. I don't even know if the kids could handle it again (though I "think" I could better than they),<br>If I gave him the option of telling him that if he WILL NOT work with me on us then I will leave or divorce - I believe he would take me up on it. (he once DID tell me he would go to counseling with me but not during his work hours (8 am - 9 pm and not on weekends) leaving no time to really do it. I tried to find appointments late; but to no avail. (which I'm probably sure he knew). I think he would be the man with the chip on his shoulder and say "I bailed out" and not him. I think he would try to make "our" sons life miserable. I also know (because he has said this) that he wouldn't leave my home. He would make ME be the one to leave. And honestly, I am not giving up another home with my kids for any man again. I don't know the answer anymore. I have sat up at nites explaining to him that I love him very much and WANT this marriage to work; but that it takes two and he has to open up to me and let me know whats wrong and what is bothering him; etc. I do believe one issue has always been that he feels a little funny about me and my ex's relationship (we get along "fairly" well - and he sees the kids a lot) - but I have more than assured him that he has no reason to resent or be jealous of that past relationship and I have to be fair to him for the kids sake. He seems to understand that all, but I question it. <br>My biggest problem is that he WILL NOT talk to me. To him, everything is fine - or will be fine - and I don't want a divorce. I want him in my life and in the kids life - so I'm fighting myself really and not him. I always swore in my heart that I would never mention the DIVORCE word - - and in 6 years haven't. But, I think he would let it go and try to be a man about it and say that I walked out on the marriage. I don't want it back in my face. <br>But I know what you mean. If it won't work, it won't work and I just wonder how much more I can take before I get to that point.

If you have ANY PROBLEM on your marriage the solution is simple if you have all the alternative with you. First thing first, GOD love is everything. You will not<br>find love for yourself or someone else if you don't have a solid base for true love. GOD love will give everyone hope, faith, strenght, forgiveness, and live meaning.<br>Once you start looking on that direction you will have the understanding that will bring the Holy Spirit to look in the following books: <br>-BIBLE (1-Corithians 13)<br>-Divorce Busting "A Revolutionary and Rapid Program for Staying Together" <p>Don't worry to much on why it happend or how just act toward knowing how to solve it. May the solution is a divorce after all, but a divorce from you old marriage<br>and the beginning of a new one. <p>It is possible to change your marriage just <br>by yourself. Usually a set of action-reaction events are build. If you change the part that is your contribution then the reaction of the other part is not longer valid and he will need to think how he should react. Another thing is that you may able to find on yours experiences together what set of action from your part has a reaction on him that is the one that you are looking for rigth now. Try the book that I just mentioned and you may able to find there little hints that take you to big changes.<p>Try all, don't give up, GOD bless you! <p>OUR FATHER KNOWS WHAT'S BEST FOR US, SO WHY SHOULD WE COMPLAIN, WE ALWAYS WANT THE SUNSHINE, BUT HE KNOWS<br>THERE MUST BE RAIN. <p>WE LIKE THE SOUND OF LAUGHTER, AND THE MERRIMENT OF CHEER, BUT OUR HEARTS WOULD LOSE THEIR TENDERNESS, IF WE<br>NEVER SHED A TEAR. <p>OUR FATHER TESTS US OFTEN, WITH SUFFERING AND WITH SORROW, HE TESTS US, NOT TO PUNISH US, BUT TO HELP US MEET<br>TOMORROW. <p>FOR GROWING TREES ARE STRENGTHENED, WHEN THEY WITHSTAND THE STORM, AND THE SHARP CUT OF THE CHISEL, GIVES THE<br>MARBLE GRACE AND FORM. <p>OUR FATHER NEVER HURTS US NEEDLESSLY, AND HE NEVER WASTE OUR PAIN, FOR EVERY LOSS HE SENDS TO US, IS FOLLOWED BY<br>A RICH GAIN. <p>AND WHEN WE COUNT THE BLESSINGS, THAT GOD HAS SO FREELY SENT, WE WILL FIND NO CAUSE FOR MURMURING, AND NO TIME<br>TO LAMENT. <p>FOR OUR FATHER LOVES HIS CHILDREN, AND TO HIM ALL THINGS ARE PLAIN, SO HE NEVER SENDS US PLEASURE, WHEN THE SOUL'S<br>DEEP NEED IS PAIN. <p>SO WHENEVER WE ARE TROUBLED, AND WHEN EVERYTHING GOES WRONG, IT IS JUST GOD WORKING IN US, TO MAKE OUR SPIRIT<br>STRONG.

Cndy,<br>You ask, "Why SHOULD he change?" It sounds like you're thinking that he has nothing to lose if your marriage ends. Maybe this notion deserves further thought. Even if he's just "going through the motions for the sake of the kids", it shows that he cares about the relationship.<p>I can imagine how frustrated you must feel, "...being the ONLY one to break down the barriers and make things better." I wonder if your H reported his feelings what he might say. Probably he is also frustrated, and perhaps frightened, about what's happening, and maybe he doesn't really know how to deal with it. Maybe he's hoping that you can "fix" things. Of course, this doesn't work without his cooperation, but he may not realize it, or want to believe it. Perhaps he's afraid of appearing incompetent in your eyes in trying to deal with these difficulties, and doesn't want to admit his fears. Instead, he makes excuses and avoids dealing with it at all -- like his excuses for not having time available for counseling. <p>As others have suggested, try reading Harley's book, "Give and Take". It offers helpful advice. The first step is to eliminate the "love busters" -- no "disrespectful judgements" or "angry outbursts". Then talk with your H, in a caring manner, about your emotional needs and ask about his. Discuss how adopting "the policy of joint agreement" ("never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse") would be beneficial for both of you. This policy will force both of you be thoughtful of the other's feelings, even when you don't feel like doing it. If you both agree to adopt this policy for even a "trial" period of one week, you'll be on the right track to resolving your difficulties.

Inreally don't understand the comment about "by going thru the motions for the kids shows he cares about the relationship" - I too, MANY TIMES feel that I have hung in "this long" for the kids. Actually, I know I have. If I didn't have kids (though some of these problems wouldn't be the way they are now) - I think I would have given him that option of working it out or he would need to leave. Having the kids has stopped me from doing that - becuase regardless of him; I do NOT want to see my kids hurt and go thru divorce more than myself. I do care about the relationship and he does too - it boils down to JUST HOW MUCH does he care? Enough to let us get a 3rd opinion or advice or help? I'm going to try. I will probably try with him till the day I die becuase its VERY important to me. But I can say that in being rejected in trying to make this thing better (I don't expect perfect) - its hurt more than a lot of other things have hurt me.