K,<P>Where do i find this "lovebusters" questionare? I can't seem to locate it.<P>never mind... I found it. Thank you!<p>[This message has been edited by StevieB (edited May 11, 1999).]

StevieB<BR>I agree, you need to get some counseling. Someone you both are comfortable with. Someone unbiased. My H & I are doing so right now. The first thing we had to do was to forgive. True forgiveness is to forget. Very hard to do! The first step was to write down everything that our spouse has done (no matter how long ago) that hurt us, made us mad, irritated us. My list was 2 pages, his was only about 5 things. (I'm a more detail person anyway, his were general things) We were told to be as specific as possible. We have hurt each other deeply over the years and especially over the last 2. The next session, I read my list. Then I was asked if I could and did forgive him for them. I had thought long and hard about these things for the previous week and realized how petty so many were (I will say my H had an affair). I said I did. Then my counselor - christian counselor - told me to ask God's forgiveness for my carrying this unforgiveness for so long. The Bible tells us to forgive. It also says that if you don't forgive, you are also not forgiven. Can't remember the verse - John I think. That was quite an eye opener. I felt the betrayed and the victim before but after reading HNHN and so many other things on this website I realize there is so much room for improvement. How many of us on this web site have said if I only knew what I know now so much unhappiness could have been prevented.<P>At least your wife is willing to stay with you. But she also needs to know that she has work to do also.<P>Good luck

Update!<P>She's even madder today. She says the more she finds out about the whole situation the more she hates me. She is extremely pissed that I got postal mail from her too. She said that if she had ever found it i would be dead. I think things are going to take a turn for the worse. I think I know my wife pretty well, although she would say I don't right now, and I think all signs are pointing to the big "D". She's asking me questions that I don't want to answer. I don't want to lie to her either, but to answer the questions she's putting in front of me will just make matters worse. I honestly don't remember a lot of what happened. I tried to block it out, but she doesn't believe me.<P>I tried to get a hug before she left for work and she said no. I don't know how hard I should keep trying.<P>She had checked my e-mail for me today too. Something she has never done. I own a domain and am a webmaster and she knows how many e-mail accounts I have, She checked them all. Granted I have nothing to hide from her anymore (big relief there) but for her to do that show just how little she trusts me now.<P>She was more furious today I think. I'm going to lose her. I know it.<P>She wants to confront Kim I think. I'm not sure if I should help her with that or discourage it. Kim is pissed at me for lying to her, but understands that I love my wife unconditionally. She says all I had to do was tell her Heather and I were doing better and she would have left me alone. But I was worried she was going to go ballistic on me. Heather wants the ring I gave her in a BAD way. She says if she doesn't get it, she'll hunt her down and take it. I've never seen this side of my wife before, I don't like it.<P>How do I answer her questions? She's grilling me and i don't know how to handle it. When we had our problems she kept saying "go get a girlfriend then...." THAT is NOT my excuse though!! But I was stupid enough to tell her "I took your advise and went and got a girlfriend..."<P>I don't want to give my wife details about my affair. I know it will only hurt her more. But what do I do if she demands to know? All hope of rekindling our love seems lost.<P>I hate myself for doing this to her. I know she never meant what she said. And i never planned on acting on it either. One thing lead to another and before I knew it, I was spending a lot off time doing and thinking things I should not have.<P>She's going to leave, I know she is.<P>Sh*t.

Talk about a roller coaster ride....<P>I send heather a virtual florist gift earlier today while at work. Here's the link is you care to check it out:<P> <A HREF="http://www.virtualflorist.com/pickup/?KLZ69181" TARGET=_blank>http://www.virtualflorist.com/pickup/?KLZ69181</A> <P>Just about 20 minutes ago I logged into my work server to check my mail and I had this from her:<P>Isn't it a little past the point of giving it your all? I don't know.<BR>I guess I'll believe it when I see it.<P>I started to well up and then wrote this to her:<P>Heather,<P>As long as you give me the chance for you to see it. I WILL show you! I know words mean little or next to nothing from me right now, but I promise to you my wife, I WILL be the husband you married and so much more... the husband you deserve.<P>Thank you for not leaving yet. Thank you for giving me this chance. I can only hope and pray that you don't change your mind before I can show you just how much I love you, how much you mean to me, and how much our children mean to me.<P>I'm so sorry for what I've done. I don't except forgiveness or understanding. I know what I did was wrong. I never wanted to lie to you, or hurt you. You changed my life when you accepted my hand in marriage. I don't want to lose you, now or ever. I want to grow old with you, share things with you, watch Megan and Jared grow up around us. Brag about our grandchildren together. I want to share my lifetime with the one I love more than anything in this world, and that's you Heather. <P>If you look back, you know we were going through some pretty rough times and that I have changed a little quite recently. Being more loving towards our kids and not so tempered as I was when we first met. I know I have a very long way to go, but none of it will be worth it without my family intact. <P>I stood my ground and took the slap across the face like the man that deserved it. I was waiting for more actually. You order me not to cry as I should feel no remorse for what I did, and I tried to hold it back. I can only imagine how you must have felt when I told you. I never want you to feel such horrible pain again, and I swear to you on our children I will not allow that pain to ever come back. <P>My only regret is that I do not have the courage to say this to you face to face. Although I know that you feel as I, that writing things down seems to help. I have every one of your anniversary cards that you have given me. They sit in my office at work and once a week I sit for a while and read them. I remember each year together and what impacts we had in our lives. When I saw the new cards in the trash, I felt a fraction of your pain. I took them to work too.<P>Since the very day that I got a "love certificate" from you good for 1 backrub daily for 1 month, I have left it next to my computer at home. Well my dearest wife, I would like to give you my own love certificate. I want to certify that my love for you will do nothing but grow each and every day, and I will not rest until you believe in it again. Even when you do, I'll find new ways of showing it.<P>I screwed up as bad as any man possibly could. I betrayed the trust of my wife. I know that I will never gain full trust again and I understand that. I know that you and I were meant to be together. My life was a whirlwind until I met you. Since then you've shown me it's ok to open up, to trust in someone, and to love unconditionally. All that I can possibly ask from you right now is a chance to redeem myself. I know you loved me with all you were at one time. I hope there is enough left for you to stay and give me that chance.<P>Humbly,<BR>Your Husband.<BR>Steve<P><BR>Plain and simple, not much thought involved really. Just straight from this heart of mine...<P>I still think I'm going to need lots of help. And I still hate the thought of counseling. There HAS to be another alternative.<p>[This message has been edited by StevieB (edited May 11, 1999).]

Dear Steve,<P>Please convince your wife that Kim is unworthy for her to be contacted. She would only hurt her feeling even more. Believe me. I just been through the same path. Contacting her would only deepen the scar that already there. She is not important. And if she kept on scolding her she would not only degrading her self but also gave Kim a chance to backfire her and telling her more cruel things. Beg her to stop. Tell her that you don't want to see her hurted even more.<P>Go and see the counsellor. K is so right. I think it is good if your could show Heather that you'd been able to put aside your reluctant in seeing counsellor because then she would think that you are really serious in solving problems. If you don't want to see counsellor for your self then do it for your wife and kids. I thought you said that you would do anything to fix thing. Why this is not included seeing a counsellor? That is not a hard thing to do, isn't that?<P>I wish you all the best.<P>

Heather hates me. She looked right at me and said it.<P>There's so much to say but it's getting all bottled up and I don't know how to get it out. She wrote me a letter lastnight. Neither one of us were ever really good at talking to each other when we were mad.<P>After I read her letter, she demand I tell her everything about my affair. And she wanted details. I just sat there with pretty much a blank stare on my face. I was thinking to myself that I didn't want to relive what I had done, never mind tell her in detail. She was hurt enough, I saw no need to make it worse. She asked me things, and I answered them honestly. It killed me to watch her cry while I answered.<P>She said that she was calling WIC (??) in the morning and every other govt. agency to help her support herself and as soon as she found a fulltime job and a day care center she was leaving. ..."No! YOU are leaving, the kids and I are staying here Steve, you're the one who needs to look for a new home..."<P>I asked her to read her mail, the mail I sent to her that's in my last post. I was feeding Jared on the couch while she read and cried. As she wiped away her tears I wispered how sorry I was. I saw a very little "light" in her eyes of compasion or something for me when she finished reading. I told her about how I had come here, to this web site and told her how to find what I've been writing. I told her that here, I had no reason for lying. I want to save my marriage and lying here will do me no good. She read through the posts, that's when I remembered the questionaire. Jared had fallen asleep so I layed him down in his crib and got both copies out of my motorcycle jacket. Sh easked me what they were and I asked her to just keep reading, that she would find out what they were. As she read, I filled out my questionaire. THAT is when I truly realized what a big fat stinking jerk of a so called husband I was.<P>There are 5 Love Busters? Well guess what, I have only 2 that I could fill out about Heather. And one of them I realize is totally unfair of me. Annoying Behavior. She smokes, I dislike that very much. But she has smoked since way before we met. I'd do anything to be with her so I was blind to the fact that I always stopped dating a girl once I found out she was a smoker. Hetaher "slowed down" a little because she knew I didn't like it and for a long time she even only smoked when I wasn't around. Not to keep it from me, just out of respect for me. She quit cold turkey when she found out she was pregnant with Megan. I was so proud of her. I thought she had quit for "US", herself, then baby, and me. Later I found I was wrong, she quit for the baby. And that hurt me. I guess in a way I resented that. I'm constantly telling her that I WANT her to stop, and that I know she can becuase she did it for Megan. (After reading her questionaire about me I realize that telling a WANT her to stop is wrong of me). Slowly she started smoking more and more around the house (never indoors) and when we went on day trips somewhere, anytime we stopped for food or whatever, she had to get have one. Even if it was for the few steps out of the car to the door of whatever building we were going into. And stupid me would comment as such. The other thing is more personal and NOT stereo typicall of "men".... I'll just say that she doesn't "sleep" with me nearly as often as I would like. I know her reasons, but it doesn't help how I feel about it.<P>Both of these things are the only "Love Busters" I could think of about my wife. And looking back now, I see that they are quite selfish of me and petty.<P>On the other hand, my wifes was filled with 6's across the board. All except selfish demands, she says they are more like "digs" than demands so she skipped over that one.<P>Embarrassingly and regretfully, about 3 to 4 months into our marriage I showed my wife exactly how bad my temper can rage. And over what? We lived in Montana and I bought dirtbikes for us to ride through the Mountains and explore the wilderness. She couldn't make it up a hill that I thought was nothing. And I went off on her. Not thinking for a moment that I had been riding for about 10 years and this was one of her first times ever on a bike, never mind operating it. Since that day, a day I will never forget or forgive myself for, my wife has been afraid of me. I hate that. I don't want her to be afraid of me, I'd like her to feel comfortable know that no matter what she does or says that I will feel compasion for how she feels or what she's thinking. My love for her has helped me to control my rage as I don't like the thought of instilling fear into her. And since the birth of our beautiful little girl I think I have calmed down alot. A lot! But I know I still fly off the handle sometimes. Now with another newborn, I really need to stop using my strength whenI get angry. I don't know what I am going to do about it, but I know I will find a way not to get physical.<P>I can't believe that something so stupid like washing out my milk glass before leaving it in the sink can impact my marriage so greatly. It makes me sit back and wonder what else I may do to add to this sort of thing. I'm sure there are mor e than a few and I hope I can catch them all before they need to be pointed out to me. I want Heather to know that I'm not trying to correct myself because she has asked me to, but because I want to... for her, for us. <P>I'm so glad I came to this almost a year ago, my regret is that I didn't do anything about what was said to me before. I'm glad I remembered the web address. And I'm glad that my wife, Heather has enough love for me to give me a second chance. She says she's scared and I don't blame her. I begged her to just give me the time to show her I'm sincere. Time is all that I have, and a little of her love. Hopefully with more time, I can win back more love.<P>Just no, I realized something. I took her for granted. Wow. Lastnight after we talked about things she let me hug her. I picked her up and held her, which is very big for her allow me to do. She hates when I pick her up, but I had to. I wanted to hold on forever. We kissed (shortly) and thenI told her "A little over 4 years ago, I took a vow. To end each night by saying I'm sorry or I love you. So, I'm sorry, but I love you!" And went to bed.<P>Heather, <BR>if you do end up coming back to this web page I want to make ... no I'd LIKE you to know, That I did not say any of this for "your benifit". This is how I feel, and this is what I plan to try to accomplish. I told you last night that for our 5th year anniversary that I would be buying you a two months salary diamond ring. I mean that. I know you don't care about material things but I would LIKE you have a ring that symbolizes how much love I have inside me for you and because of you. Unfortunatley I cannot spend a lifetimes of money to buy a diamond ten times the size of the universe, so a small rock will have to do.<P>I love you Heather. I'll never stop. And I promise to try my best to show you how much, each and every day.<BR>Steve<P>Sorry for the typos in this message, I can't spell to well whenI get nervous.<P>Heather and I have agreed that we will try to work things out on our own, (and here for me), if that doesn't work then YES, I will go see a counselor!<p>[This message has been edited by StevieB (edited May 12, 1999).]

\<BR><p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]

I just want to say that I am a very lucky man. I know that I'm not even close to resolving this with my wife. But I want the world to know how grateful I am that she is willing to give me one more thing. Time to prove myself to her. <P>I know my fate lies in my own hands, but I can not start it with out her consent. My wife is beautiful! Physically, she's a star! In spirit, she's the most unselfish, caring, and understanding person in the whole world. I can only wish to be half the person she is.<P>I know I won't get a new begining, or a fresh start. But I have a solid foundation built with our relatioship, and with that I can and will accomplish my dreams about her. I'll stop at nothing to be that person she fell in love with 4 years ago. I took pride knowing that my wife could count on me and I desperately desire those feelings back. My goal during this life is to make her and my kids as happy and as proud as can be, and by doing so I will be happy. <P>I've taught myself a lesson at the expense of my wife's trust in me. A lesson very well learnt with a very high price. But a lesson that I know I will never need to learn again. At least not ever in the same manner.<P>She says she feels like a mother of three. And I admit to being a child a lot of times. I'm 29 and I need to grow up, take resposability for my actions, and takes steps to ensure that mistakes like this never happen to us again. I know what I did wrong, and I have no one to blame but myself. <P>4 years, 5 months, and 7 days ago was a day I will always remember as the day my life turned for the better. The very first time I layed eyes on Heather. It was love at first sight, we both knew it then, and know it now. ( I do anyway ) <P>I won't let her down, I won't let myself down. Or my kids.<P>Thank you Heather! Thank you so very much...

Steve:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know I won't get a new begining, or a fresh start. But I have a solid foundation built with our relatioship, and with that I can and will accomplish my dreams about her. I'll stop at nothing to be that person she fell in love with 4 years ago.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I see a lot of good words coming out of you. But what's the plan? What action(s) are you going to take?<P>That's what matters the most.

I'm going to show my wife that I do know what love is. By being the husband she desrves. I would say by helping more around the house, but I don't really help at all. So, I'm going to start! I did the dishes last night. I know it's not much but it's a beginning. I'm going to listen to what she has to say to me, she's has always listened to whatever I talked about with sincere interest in what I was saying, even if the topic was something mattered very little to her. I'm not going to ask what's for dinner anymore, I'm going to ask her what she'd like for dinner. I know how to cook some things... I'm going to TRY to do some laundry...we'll see how that goes. I'm not coming home and start "b*tching about what a horrible day I had at work", I'm going toask how her day was. I'm going to show her that I am genuinely INTERESTED with how she feels, what she thinks, and what she's done. <P>I'm going to show her that deep inside me I am still the man she fell in love with, and that I can bring that man back to the surface where he will be very easy to see.<P>My wife has given herself to me in more ways than I can fathom in the last 4 years, I'm going to do the same for her!<P>To write down the exacts about it.... I'm not sure I can really. I'm just going to do the best job of being a loving, caring, listening, understand, and giving husband that I can.

Steve:<P>No offense, but you appear to have boundless enthusiasm without much of a clue as to how to harness it effectively.<P>I still think you would be a thousand times better off in this process if you would make an appointment with Steve Harley here at MarriageBuilders (888-639-1639). But if you're not willing to do this, let me tell you what "the PLAN" was for me:<P>1. You've got to establish new behaviors. And a consistant track record with these new behaviors. Its extremely important that you don't start doing stuff that you're not planning on doing for the rest of your life. You start doing laundry now---it's for life. Mopping the floors every week?---for life. Because if you don't, these changes that you're making are going to seem temporary to your wife. And if those are temporary, how permanent is your newly-professed love and fidelity going to be??? Get the point? Don't establish a pattern in the next few weeks that you're going to burn out on. Make real, lasting changes.<P>2. First place to start---LOVEBUSTERS! Your wife told you all the "lovebusters" that you do that make her feel lousy. If she ranked them, you should discuss with her the top one or two lovebusters, and you should eliminate them. Check with her for her input on HOW to eliminate them. Have her hold you responsible for these changes. If you screw up and have a lapse, apologize. But you will not be able to help your wife fall in love with you if you're lovebusting on her---all the good things you do for her will go unnoticed with the use of these thoughtless behaviors. I suggest that you buy the book "Lovebusters" from this site and read it.<P>3. You seem to be willing to go "hog-wild" to meet your wife's needs. But until you ask her, you may not know what those are. There is an "Emotional Needs Questionnaire" available on the website. I don't think that you're ready for this yet---you need to demonstrate new behavior through the consistant elimination of lovebusters. But when your wife is ready, she should fill out the form and share it with you. You should discover her important emotional needs, and if she's willing to let you meet them. Then discuss with her how she'd like them met. And execute the plan. She may be unwilling to let you meet her need for affection right now---I see you "pushing" for physical contact through hugs and caresses. Don't mistake your need to try to be close and make up to her for HER need for affection. If she needs affection but doesn't want it from you, don't push. Work in the areas that she's willing to work in, and show her that you do care (and that you can listen).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm just going to do the best job of being a loving, caring, listening, understand, and giving husband that I can.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, that's a great goal (especially if her's is the same for you). But I still think you could use a plan, and a coach. I really believe that you'll benefit from the counseling.

It's given that my behavior is going to change! And of course I know it's for life! Do you honestly yhink that I would just do something for a little while until I thought she felt better? To me, these "temporary changes" ARE for life. For my life with my family. Just becuase I don't say exactly what my plan is doesn't mean I don't have one.<P>I don't mean to come across as upset here, just that I know I'm an idiot, but not THAT big of and idiot....<P>I know I have a lot to learn about marriage, trust, love, friendship... and all other relationship "skills". But guess what else I know. I have the worlds greatest teacher of these such things! My wife. Throughout our marriage she has taught me, I just wasn't listening hard enough. I'm going to now, and I'm going to try to remember all that she taught me in the past.<P>Nothing is temporary. Not even the pain that she feels now. I MAY be able to subside it one day, but I know it will never go away.<P>I have a lot to talk about with Heather. I want to be her friend again.<P>I want to thank all of you who have tried to help me. Now that I have a chance to save my marriage, I'm going to do just that, and hold it sacred forever.

.<p>[This message has been edited by HJF (edited July 16, 1999).]

It doesn't matter anymore.<P>My damn sister gave Heather "her" e-mail address and they have been talking....<P>Heather now thinks that I was feeding her bullsh*t tuesday night when we were talking and I showed her this site.<P>I gave "her" a stupid cladah (sp) ring and told her that I wanted to marry her "someday" Heather wants that ring. She wants to give it to my daughter when "she's old enough". <P>I can't even say her name anymore so... the "OW" wrote back to Heather some stuff and in her PS she worte: "P.S. I WILL NOT send you MY ring. I'll always have it to remind me of the look on Steve's face on Thanksgiving when he asked me to marry him someday!"<P>I don't know why I had to go and buy her a stupid ring, I knew all along that I would never want to marry her. I thought that my marriage was pretty much over and I was scared of being alone I guess. I honestly think that's why I did it. But Heather now refuses to believe anything I say.<P>Here read this....<P>Heather:<BR>One last thing before I let you off the hook... I want the ring that Steve gave you. When my daughter is old enough, I'll give it to her and tell her the story behind it. Maybe it will help her make intelligent choices in her search for "Mr. Right". Maybe someone should have done the same for you<BR> (and me).<P>My address is .... If you have any remorse<BR> whatsoever, you will send it to me.<P>OW:<BR>Oh, that would be a real nice thing to tell your daughter! Why do people use their children like that? I KNOW your address... I've used it. I WILL respond to your last letter when I get the chance. And by the way.... I couldn't care less whether or not you "let me off the hook"!!<P>Heather:<BR>You know what, you little piece of trash? I decided not to rip you a new @sshole for all of this because I considered you a victim in some small way. But now I can honestly say that you deserve to burn in hell. Don't you DARE criticize me for what I tell my daughter. I will do everything I can to<BR>make sure she doesn't end up like you... gullible, desperate, and willing to<BR>pursue a man who lied to her and then blew her off. How am I "using" her anyway? What do you know about what it feels like to have a child, and love them, and be afraid for their future? Screw you. Don't bother responding to my last letter, either. It was not meant to be responded to.<P><BR>OW:<BR>"Piece of trash???" No, no, no, I don't think so! Like I said before, I DON'T<BR>CARE what you think of me- you don't know anything about me so don't pretend to.<P>As far as criticizing you about what you tell Megan? Well frankly, I'm entitled to my opinion. I think it is the worst thing in the world for parents to play a child against the other parent. I don't need to have children to know that it's wrong for one parent to bad-mouth another! That's a child's mind you're messing with- talk<BR>about having a little respect!!<P>For your information, I was not, nor am I currently pursuing your "husband". I remained fiends with him because that's how we started out and I felt he needed someone to talk to. Our relationship was over when I found out the truth about you, so I saw nothing wrong with remaining friends.<P>As far as feeling remorse?? I have nothing to feel remorseful about- I did nothing<BR>wrong. The only regret I have is that I trusted and loved too easily.<P>P.S. I WILL NOT send you MY ring. I'll always have it to remind me of the look on Steve's face on Thanksgiving when he asked me to marry him someday!<P><BR>Heather:<BR>Do you realize what a psychopath you sound like? You obviously don't<BR>comprehend what you read, because you didn't grasp any of the points I was<BR>trying to make. I did say when Megan is OLD ENOUGH, I will tell her about<BR>this...I obviously wouldn't badmouth her father, either. She adores her<BR>father (too bad it will have to be from afar in the near future, though)<BR>I'd only be telling her the truth about why she was raised by me alone.<BR>That, you lousy excuse for a person, is not using a child. That is simply<BR>telling the truth to a grown woman. And yes, you did do something wrong.<BR>You knew Steve wanted to try to work things out with me, so you should have<BR>left him alone. Plain and simple. But you apparently are in denial. If<BR>you "love" him so much, why don't you get your [censored] down here and get him?<BR>Do NOT send me any more mail. I will not read it. You keep saying the same<BR>ridiculous things over & over, so what's the point of me even reading<BR>anymore? Besides, I've got better things to do, such as "using" my<BR>daughter. Ha! Thanks for the laugh anyway. Talk to me again when you get a<BR>life AND a clue.<P>OW:<BR>Apparently you are still getting a different "version" of the story... but i do not feel<BR>the need to explain myself further. Your problem is not with me, but with your<BR>husband. I myself have better things to do... this chapter of my life is over and,<BR>believe it or not, I have started my life over back in February when Steve said<BR>he moved back to Montana with you....<P>as far as megan? i really don't care what you tell her... she's a sweetheart<BR>and i was just hoping you two would keep it that way. If you have any more questions, ask your husband. I'm getting sick of your attitude.<P>Heather to me:<BR>Steve,<BR>I thought you should see this. The top one is my reply to "her" email from<BR>tonite, which is the last entry. I thought a lot tonight at work about what<BR>happened the night before and I couldn't help feeling like I've been<BR>suckered somehow. I think I gave in to your tears a little too easily. I<BR>hate myself for that. In any case, even if I had been feeling more<BR>forgiving toward you(which I wasn't), her latest e-mail knocked the crap<BR>right out of that. Now, why was it that you gave her this "promise" ring,<BR>when you were bull****ting her about your feelings for her? I don't remember<BR>what lie you concocted about that. Refresh my memory. Also, thanks for the<BR>mother's day present & message...was that supposed to be your way of<BR>admitting that you lied about the real present? I'm too disgusted to even<BR>type any more. One last thing, though, make sure you read everything below<BR>carefully. Especially the P.S. the ***** wrote. Also, seeing how she's so<BR>concerned about Megan, and how I'm using her, maybe she can repair some of<BR>the "damage" as Megan's stepmom? Actually, I'd never let her near my<BR>precious babies. Have a nice day.<BR>---------------------------------------------<P>When I realized what I was doing, and I how stupid I was being, I tried to tell "her" to leave me alone without getting her upset and trying to tell Heather about this. ( Back in Februaury ) From then on just about everything I told "her" was I lie just so that she would not try to get in touch with Heather. I stopped talking to her, period. And yes I stopped thinking about her too. I told "her" whatever it was I thought she wanted to hear, just so I might be safe at home.<P>I poured my heart out too Heather on tuesday night. I told her I was sorry for all of it. She knows that our marriage was having problems back a year ago, but I told her that was not my excuse for what I did. Now that this ring thing has come up and bit me, I'm afraid Heather's stubborn mind will not allow me back into her life. NOW I know that there is nothing I can do to save our marriage. Although it's the only thing in my life right now that I know I want. I'm dead. I need Heather to at the very least want to listen to me, but now it's quite obvious she has no intention of that.<P>Guess I desrve this though.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by StevieB (edited May 13, 1999).]

Heather and I have plans to go see her Grandmother in NY this weekend. Should I wait til then to try to talk to her or should I call home and ask her if I can go home and talk to her now?

Steve, <P>First of all let me say that I can both relate to and understand where Heather is comming from. Second...If you can pull this off, get a sitter for your children and sit Heather down and TALK TALK TALK. If, for some reason, you haven't been totally and completely honest with her, now is the time to start. Don't 'sugar coat' anything to 'spare her feelings'. My H wanted to 'lie' to me about details because he thought they would only hurt me more. But what he didn't realize is that it was the lies that hurt more than what he 'did'. Heather loves you, that's obvious from her reactions to the OW...however, Heather may not LIKE you much at this point, and that's ok. I tell my kids all the time "You always have to love mommy, but you don't always have to LIKE me." There is a difference. <BR>Don't start a complex conversation on a drive to NY unless Heather brings it up. This is a 'vacation' for her, and she is looking forward to seeing her grandmother. Use this time to show Heather your love for her...be loving and kind, supportive and attentive. Let Heather decide how far she wants to go at this point. But no matter what...don't leave...even if she tells you to. <BR>Steve, I am sorry...my kids are screaming and fighting..I have to go for now..I will finish this post a little later.<P>Hang in there!

Steve,<BR>Why don't YOU ask for the ring back? (Heather by your side of course) Right now two women are fighting over you. Your wife needs to feel protected and you shattered that protection when this OW started telling her she doesn't know her own husband. A wife wants to feel like she knows her husband the best but, when she finds out she doesn't it can and is hurtful. I'm not Heather nor do I know Heather, but I can only imagine how she feels. I have the idea that Heather wants you to stick up for her, take a stand to this OW by telling her or admitting that yes I did say those things, but I did not and do not mean them. Tell the OW that you didn't know what you were thinking by giving her that ring when you knew all along that you never wanted to marry her. Admit you were selfish and scared of being alone. Make it clear to her that you do want to be and work things out with your wife. <BR>One way is Heather wants that ring back. Get it back for her. Tell the OW you want and need her to give the ring back. You made a promise to the OW and I think and this is just my opinion that Heather wants you to take that promise back and that ring symbolizes that promise. <BR>This is all my opinion and I'm not an expert. I agree that we all have the same goal here and that is to save our marriage or relationship. You and Heather are in my thoughts and prayers. I hope the two of you can and will work things through. Good luck.<BR>

Hi Steve!<P>This reply may contradict some other but listen to this.<P>I have been on both sides of so-called betrayal, and now I understand that this shouldn ot be called this name.<P>You had reasons to start an online conversation, didn't you? You did it because your life was missing something, perhaps your wife just never claimed a particular side of your personality, which found a response with Kim? Don't blame yourself for this -- expecially for so long. Feeling guilty never did any good to anybody, especially, when there are two people involved. If you regret what you did, fine, from this point you simply know why you'll never do it and that you won't. Enough. YEs, you had reasons for doing this, and you had reasons for stopping this. You were not far-sighted enough to see teh consequenses -- but who is free of guilt? Take it as a mistake and valuable experience.<P>Next, I'll tell you a little of my own story and how a woman feels when a husband, feeling guilty, goes out of his way to please her. I felt awful. I felt, everything was not because he was feeling this way and had had changed in an instant but was kind of bribing me. Unexpected flowers, perfume, restaurants, getaways... Yes, I enjoyed it and hoped he had changed -- I still felt it was insincere, and it was. Why? Because he was not giving those signs of attention happily and proudly, but as a opunished dog, unsure of himself and of the result of his actions. It is so difficult to accept gifts, given this way. And I was nasty to him, I was laughing at him, and so on. YEsm cruel, and I was punished for htis later, and I went the same way, walking in his shoes and doing exactly same things.<P>And about a card torn. When I was going through a difficult period, I also exterminated some of his presents -- not because I suddenly started hating everything related to him, the opposite: they were such a vivid reminder, so cherished memory of our good times and of him and my love to him, I could not have them around -- and not have what I no longer had. Yes, I said many harsh things to him, when he gave me a carefully selected birthday gift in those hard times, I said that he should have realized, I wouldn't be able to use it because he was doing those things to me -- and giving presents, like a hypocricy. I did not realize at that time that it was not.<P>As a woman -- one advice. Try it, if it doesn't work, discard.<P>She is hurt, and her pride is hurt, and the trust is damaged. Words don't work -- use actions. It will take some time, but words and actions should match each other. Don't try to prove anything -- simply do it, and trust and understanding will come.<P>If you know what it is, use NLP techniques to work out the best way to interact, to find what will help to improve communication.<P>------------------<BR>m145i@theglobe.com