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#54863 09/02/99 11:21 AM
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My fiance and I have been engaged for 1 month. Recently, I began talking about when to have kids with her. She is 32 right now, and I'm 29. My aunt was 37 when she had her baby, and her kid (my nephew) has Down's Syndrome. My fiance's co-worker had health complications, and also had to have a C-section when she had her baby. the co-worker is 37.<BR>I have tried and tried to persuade my fiance to agree to have kids before she's 35. But, she refuses to listen and instead, accuses me of using her as a baby making machine. Also, she wants to finish her school program, which means 6 more courses. It would take at least 2, probably 3 years to finish that. Her insistence on finishing the school program leads me to believe that having kids is not a priority with her. My reasoning is that if we go on the assumption that having kids is a priority, then it would make sense to want to minimize the health risks as best we can. She doesn't want to have kids until at least she's 35 and probably 36. She won't budge. I feel no more hope in this. I have told her from day 1 that if she doesn't want kids, to please be honest with me, because that is the one issue that is most important to me which I am not going to compromise on.<BR>Can anyone offer any insight/suggestions?<P>

#54864 09/02/99 01:16 PM
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Al,<P>I suggest that you and your fiancee read the Policy of Joint Agreement, and then use this as a framework to work out a mutually enthusiastic agreement concerning the issue. <P>The fact that school is important to her indicates that she would like to have a career other than being a stay-at-home mom. There might be ways to accelerate that process (6 courses can be done in a semester). You need to know where she honestly stands in terms of having children.<P>You, on the other hand, are being disrespectful in your attempts to pursuade your fiancee to have children eaarlier. You're probably lovebusting, and that's why she's refusing to listen. From a purely scientific standpoint, the health risks from post-35 babies are higher than normal, but it's not a "doom-and-gloom" situation statistically. The overwhelming majority of babies born to 40+ mothers are healthy.

#54865 09/02/99 02:31 PM
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Hi K,<P>Thanks for taking the time to reply and offer suggestions. I really do appreciate that.<P>And yes, I do admit that my attempts to persuade her are seen as lovebusters, as I realize I'm not taking her feelings into account. <BR>How can I approach the topic without making selfish demands or disrespectul judgements? I guess I need a crash course on communication.<P>I've asked her how she feels about having kids, and she tells me that we've already talked about this, and the topic is getting rather stale. So, does this mean I have to look at it from her perspective without offering any opinions?<BR>What if she tells me that her career is her priority?<P>My situation has led me to believe that sometimes understanding a problem does not mean that there is a solution. <P>

#54866 09/02/99 02:46 PM
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You're absolutely correct in that defining the problem doesn't always lead to a solution.<P>You know what disrespectful judgements and selfish demands are, don't you. If you're not sure, buy the book "Lovebusters"---Harley does a great job illustrating them. So good, in fact, that I thought he used me!!<P>Then you need to discuss these issues with your fiancee again. You can approach this in a couple ways. The first way that I'd try is to put this in a light in which you are concerned about her needs and goal---you want to present it in a way that indicates that you want to help her achieve happiness, but that you could use some help about defining that. And take the discussion from there. Always remain completely honest. Rephrase your fiancee's opinion so that she can see that you have at least listened to her.<P>Another way to handle it is to tell her that you're worried, and you'd like to realistically discuss these issues and come to some type of agreement. <P>Still another approach would be to do "premarital" counseling, or an emotional needs inventory. If you use the emotional needs inventory sheet on this website, you'll find out about each other's important emotional needs. In counseling, the next step after identifing the needs is to come up with a written plan on how each of you will meet the other's emotional needs. In this approach, your fiancee would see that having X children was a need, and she would be "responsible" for addressing that need (through the Policy of Joint agreement).<P>If she tells you that her career is her priority, and that she's not sure about kids, I would suggest that you call the wedding off. You're not married---there's a lot of fundamental incompatibilities that one can compromise on (work vs not working, Republican vs. Democrat, Jew vs. Christian), but having children is a very hard one. If she's unwilling, then I suggest that you find a woman who is more interested in fulfilling this very important need of yours.

#54867 09/04/99 01:08 PM
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Hi K,<P>Thanks for the advice and suggestions. <P> I remember when I went through struggles in my single life, I would think about how God has blessed me and helped me thus far in my life, and it would always help to put me in a better frame of mind. I would always try to thank God for being in my life, before I came to Him with my struggles, and burdens.<BR>So what I suggested to my fiancé was a similar thing, that we start out our heart to heart with a recollection of all the good and happy things in our relationship. I believed that it would help prevent both of us from falling into the "blame and judgemental" game. Then I tried what you suggested, disussing the issue of having kids in a perspective that showed that I was concerned about her needs and goals. She's always been a self-reliant person, as she told me before her parents weren't always around when she needed them, and she had to raise herself. I tried to show her that I empathized (and NOT sympathized) with her situation, and encouraged her to rely more on our relationship. We started talking about what she wanted out of her life, and what were some of her goals. I asked her to be honest with my question of whether she really wanted kids or not. She said yes, she really wants to have kids, but she wants to finish her school first. She also said that having kids after 35 isn't as bad as I made it out to be. I tried telling her about the fact that you have to take an amniocentisis (amnio) if you give birth at 35 or older, and how taking an amnio increases the chance of a miscarriage. She told me I was trying to scare her. It was getting late, and both of us were tired, so we decided to continue the discussion on Friday (yesterday).<BR>It was good to have a night's rest. I had unkowningly used fear as a motivator. (I don't know which motivates more, fear, or greed.)<BR>Anyways, she phoned me the next day, and confessed to me that she talked to her girlfriends and they confirmed what I said to be true. Basically, if the woman is healthy, then the pregnancy should pose no health risks or complications. However, the risk of problems with the fetus and mother does increase with age.<BR>She was finally convinced that I was fighting for the health of the baby, and not my own self interest.<BR>We spent the rest of the day together, rebuilding the trust that had been broken.<BR>I really don't want to go through that again, as I got to the point where I wanted to throw the phone out the window, and hit my head against the wall........<P>Thanks for the help and listening ear.<BR>Have you gone through anything similar yourself?

#54868 09/04/99 06:58 PM
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Al,<P>You're doing better. But this is "Dr. K" here, and you're absolutely wrong that you have to have aminocentisis post-35. My wife just had our third at 37. No amino... sorry!<P>Currently they have many blood tests that can detect fetal problems, and ultrasound technology is such that it is routinely used to screen for genetic defects. My wife had the "genetic" ultrasound done. Furthermore, if you tell your OB/gyn that you don't want testing done, and you'll play the hand that you're dealt, they won't force you to do anything...<P>If this is REALLY a major issue for the two of you, I suggest that you go to a good, trusted Ob/Gyn. They'll be able to give you the straight scoop, and it's a lot less worrysome than you'd think. (I'm a Ph.D, so I don't qualify... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] )<P>Risk does increase with age (brittleness of chromosomes...). It goes from virtually nil to minimal. <P>Keep rebuilding the trust. Learn how to communicate without being disrespectful or demanding. A great book for the two of you would be "The Four Gifts of Love", available from the website here.<P>

#54869 09/04/99 11:04 PM
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Dear Al:<BR>I understand your wife because I was the same way and still am. I am now 40 years old. My husband is 34. Anyway, I have always had long relationships, but, never wanted to get married or have children until I was at least 35/36 years old. I've been engaged 4 times in my life but never went beyond because I thought that other things were more important in my life that I wanted to do before I settled down. I did them without anyone or anyting stopping me. I traveled everywhere, went clubbing almost every other night, Went to school and got my degrees and certifications, etc... I did the things that I wanted to do and let nothing stop me. Finally, after I did what I wanted to do, I decided to go and search for my Mister Right and settle down and have children. I met my H 6 years ago. I had said to him (on our first date), "This is what I am interested in, I am interested in getting married and the following year having a child and another child a year or two after that. If this is what you want, great. If not, let's part and we'll part as friends". He was shocked but said that that is what he was looking for. We got married 1 year later. I got pregnant at 35 and had the baby at 36. My second child, I got pregnant at 38 and had the baby at 39 years old. The first was a natural child birth. It was wonderful. The second was a c-section because the baby was transverse (laying sideways). The doctors will scare you with all the statistics of having a child with Downs Syndrome. Of course, in my case, the odds were even higher when I was 38 years old. My H and I discussed it and decided that since our first was born so healthy the odds probably would be that the next one would be also. At 37, I got pregnant again and had a miscarriage. They say that is your bodies way of telling you that something was wrong with the baby. When I became pregnant again, we knew that the odds were good that this time the baby would be healthy and we were right. As far as your situation, since it runs in your family, the odds of your wife and you having a downs syndrome baby is even higher. Yes, I guess I would worry about it too, if I were you. Especially if she is going to wait until she is 35 years old. <BR>I have worked with autistic/mentally retarded children and adults (also with downs syndrome children) for 21 years. Since the age of 16 years old, I have worked in all kinds of capacities with this population. I have seen everything and have even worked with many many families who had children with downs syndrome. The responsibility is enormous because of the care that would have to be given. There are things to think about such as special needs schools, the stares and ridicules from people who don't understand why you choose not to abort, pity from everyone, sadness that the child has this disability. As far as me and my H, it really didn't matter to us if this was going to be a Downs Syndrome. We prayed for a healthy child. The Downs Syndrome was secondary. We both knew that we could deal with anything and no matter what, we would love that child with all our hearts and raise him/her to be best of our abilities. We put our faith and trust in God. We are not even that religious. Now a days, I can tell you from experience, that there are group homes that are available throughout the country for the mentally retarded individuals. They live with other individuals with the same handicapped and learn to cook, clean and try to live in a least restrictive environment that would let them be a independent as possible with alot of support. I could alwyas tell you more about that if you are interested. <BR>I know that you are worried, but, your wife is the one that will be carrying this baby. IF this baby would not be o.k., could she handle it? If she can, so should you try also. No one has the perfect baby. How awful it would be to have this baby and have something wrong with it and then have it rejected because it isn't perfect like society thinks it should be. It's a heavy, heavy thing and I understand exactly where you are coming from. I understand your frightened. From all my experience working with Downs Syndrome, my faith was put in God's hands. <BR>Just like your wife, I wouldn't budge for noone either. I guess I can say that we know what we want and when we want it and nobody will make us change our minds. We sound alike. She is probably very strong minded. Support her. Don't make her feel that she has to have a baby because you want to. The decision should be a mutual thing. She might have told you in the past that she wanted to have a baby sooner? But, I guess she changed her mind. So, if she told you that she did not want to have a baby until she was 35 or 36 years old, would that have made you not marry her? You proably still would have married her because you love her. so, I am saying, support her, love her like you did before you married her. Our biological clock is ticking and yet, there is so much to do. Now adays, so many women have children much later than many years ago, due to careers. I wish I could tell you more to ease or mind, but, I tried to give you the pros and cons. What is left is love and support. I keep saying support because that is so important. The last thing you want to do is pressure her into having a child. Just because she may have a child at 32, doesn't mean the chances for her of having a Downs Syndrome is zero. If you pressure her, there will only be problems in your relationship. I feel for you and pray that you will come to terms in dealing with this situation one way or another. I don't know if I was of any help, but, I tried. If you need to talk more, I'm here. Your friend, Katya

#54870 09/05/99 02:26 PM
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K:<BR>Does this mean that a genetic ultrasound can replace amniocentisis? What exactly is a "genetic" ultrasound? We haven't checked around for any good OB/gyn, since we're not married yet. But thanks for the suggestion. I'm actually kind of careless with my spending (easy come easy go attitude), but I care a lot about a child, so I guess that's why I'm getting so anal, and worried. I don't believe that worrying about the health of a child is selfish, or self-centred. However, I understand how it could get in the way of a happy and successful (ie. 50+ yrs) marriage. We went to a wedding recently, where I drove the bride's grandparents to the reception. The grandparents were both over 80, and had been married for over 60 years!! They both waddled like ducks but slowly, and the gramps was carrying the granny's purse, and telling the her to hurry up. I laughed and appreciated that moment fully, and as we watched them waddle, I pointed out to my fiancé, that's how I want us to grow old together..........<P>Katya:<BR>my fiancé is like you in a lot of ways. She wants to have as much fun as she can, and do everything she set out to do before she settles down and have kids. I do like that part of her, but when it comes to kids, knowing that my nephew has Down's Syndrome scares me enough to become anal about reducing health risks for the unborn child. It hasn't affected her as much because she's never been around kids with Down's Syndrome. And that's why I am anal about fighting to give the unborn child the best possible chance to be a healthy and normal child.<P>Why do I want to marry her? I feel it is because we were meant to be together. It is a corny reason, because I am an technical, analytical person, and for the life of me, I can't explain how we hit it off, or even got to this point of spending the rest of our lives together. <BR>1) She's not Christian, and I am a devoted Christian. <BR>2) She's 3 years older than me. <BR>3) We have vastly different groups friends, causing endless arguments about my/your activities. <BR>4) She never went to university while I was taking courses for a Master's degree at one point in my life. <BR>5) She's an extrovert, I'm a definite introvert.<P>All valid reasons that would cause many couples to go their separate ways. Heck, I don't meet most of Dr. Harley's compatibility criteria (intelligence, culture, values, social interest, and energy level) and his ten compatibility questions certainly have caused us to come close to calling it quits twice (the link is here:<BR><http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5068b_qa.html><P>And yet, I can say to myself without a doubt, we have gone through the torture of each test, and came through it still want to spend the rest of our lives together.<BR>I love my fiancé without knowing how, or when, or from where. But I love my fiancé as God has taught me and enabled me: to sacrifice the utmost for her, to make her complete (physical, emotional, intellectual, and spiritual) well being my primary concern, and to care for her as I care for myself. <BR>This is what I plan to say to her when we exchange our wedding vows.<BR>Wish us luck!!<P>


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