Help. I'm at my wit's end. My husband is spending a lot of time with a "friend" at work. He sees her on the average 3 nights a week until 11PM. He says she is his "best friend", but they are not having an affair. I feel embarrassed, humiliated, unloved, ignored, etc., etc. I have told him (at first with anger, but later with kindness) that this is damaging our relationship, but he believes that I am just jealous and it is all in my head. He has told me he will not choose between the two of us. He sees no reason to. She is his friend and I am his wife and those two things shouldn't conflict with each other. Other people have noticed their relationship and commented on it. He dismisses it as "gossip". I feel I should move out until he comes to terms with his addiction for her, but he denies having an addiction at all. He has tried to be home more often recently, but he still spends time on the computer with her. He can't seem to go a day without talking to her. He has tried to "fix" things with us by cooking more often, running the kids more often, etc. He has tried to be more attentive, but the attentiveness isn't the problem. I hate to put the kids through an unnecessary separation, but I don't know what to do to wake him up! Should I move out? Am I just jealous? Should I trust him? I don't want this thing to turn into an affair. Help....

An emotional affair IS an affair. Don't move out tho...I'd suggest you get the book "surviving an affair" or at least read thru the "infidelity" sections of info on the homepage here...It will give you a much better insight into the dynamics of affairs. Then start Plan A. Good luck!

Kathy:<P>While this "emotional affair" or inappropriate friendship is damaging, how you deal with it will determine your marriage's future success. And it sounds like you're going about it in the wrong way (especially with the "lovebusting" anger)<P>I'd suggest reading Harley's material---both here on the website and his books. The bottom line is that you can't force your husband to choose. So, try to give him a reason to choose you over this OW.<P>What does their friendship provide your husband that he's not getting from you. Figure it out, and then DO IT!!! Supportive (non-judgemental) conversation could be part of it---so don't try to lecture him on how this relationship is hurting your marriage.<P>Work very hard on meeting HIS needs, and eliminating lovebusters. Make your marriage a place that your husband wants to be.<P>You've listed a number of things that your husband is doing to try to compensate. Cooking, being with the kids, being more attentive---make sure that you let him know how much you APPRECIATE these new behaviors.<P>While your husband is being thoughtless and stubborn, you'll find that if you treat him by using demands and punishments, you'll just push him farther into the arms of his "best friend". You need to be his best friend (and vice versa); so start on a plan that will help get you there.<P>PS: For this problem, a separation would be a very bad choice for resolution. Even if this is a real, physical affair; you need to use "Plan A" before a separation.

I've recently faced the same situation, or rather the "threat" of this happening (see my post in the "read only" section of "Infidelity"). I reacted just like you, with jealousy and anger; he (predictably) reacted with defensiveness (of himself) and protectiveness (toward her); not the desired effect!! Only when I quit love-busting and made home a good place to be was he finally able to hear what I was saying and see the potential danger (although he still thinks I'm overreacting, I think his eyes are opened to the fact that opposite-sex office "friendships" mean playing with fire). It is absolutely essential that you stay IN the picture (don't leave!) and stay loving and accepting of him; men need acceptance and will get it from whomever is offering it!! It goes against the grain (because we ARE being hurt) and isn't easy, but it's the only way. Read "Infidelity" and ALL the good stuff on Harley's site, and good luck!<p>[This message has been edited by quandry (edited January 21, 2000).]

Thanks for the quick responses and advice. In an effort to make things rather brief on my post, I didn't mention everything. This has been going on for 5 years. I have tried killing him with kindness. I have tried to be patient. I even invited her and her mother and sister over to the house one evening. H and the OW played chess until 4 AM in my living room. I went to sleep. Her family went home, after making comments about H and OW ignoring us. <P>As for conversation... recently he was in a pretty grouchy mood. I knew something was bothering him. I asked him repeatedly what it was or if there was anything I could do to help. His reply was that he didn't want to talk about it. An hour later he was with her and guess what they talked about....<P>He also doesn't do the current honesty thing. I never know where he is in the afternoon and if I ask, he is impatient and abrupt with me. He calls her from the office, but he e-mails her from home. I'm not allowed in the room when he's writing to her. He doesn't know why I have to know every little thing about him. It irritates him. I suggested at least getting a beeper in the afternoon so I could reach him if there was an emergency. He didn't want to spend the money. <P>She is way more attractive than I am, is married but has no children (therefore has time to spend) and makes tons of money. All things that are very attractive to H.<P>I looked over Plan A again, but I guess I thought that it applied to affairs that were ended. He does *not* want to end this thing.<BR>He even e-mailed her while we were away for our anniversary last year. He took her to our secluded, wooded private property last fall. It's a 40 min. drive each way and there is nothing to see out there but trees, but he wanted to show it to her. He couldn't understand why I broke down and cried. He told me I needed counseling. (sigh.....)<P>How long do I give this Plan A thing -- provided he'll even agree to try it?

Kathy,<BR>It is time to roll the dice. You can not let yourself be treated like this. Next time he leaves for OW pack is bags and have them waiting on the door step. Lock the door. Tell him then when and if he leaves the OW the door will be opened again and walk away. If he tries to get in call the police and remove him. Only by laying down the choice for him in black and white will he make his choice. Right now he has it made both of you in his pocket. Plan A is not working. Go to plan B. Let her be all she can be. If he chooses her then so be it at least you will know who is more important to him. But anything else then kicking him out is just prolonging the day of reckoning. So what if he doesn't see a problem you do. So what if they are great friends it is interfering with you marriage. So what if he doesn't want to leave would you if you were getting everything you wanted no way .

Kathy:<P>K has given you some very good advice. Your plan A may have not been free from love busters. I do not suggest that you separate until you try to apply Dr Harley’s concepts to your marriage.<P>Here is another dimension that you can add to your plan. Your husband suggested to you to get counseling. Use this as a stepping stone. Tell your husband that you agree with him. It’s OK for right now for your husband to think that this is your problem, but let him know that you may need his help. Anytime there is a problem that affects a marriage it’s actually a problem for both of you. This is something that your husband will have to learn in time. Call Steve Harley and set up an appointment for telephone counseling. You may be able to get your husband involved in the counseling at some point with the understanding that it is to help you with your problem. K would be able to give you much more insight about Steve Harley’s counseling center if we could catch him “lurking” around again.<P>Best of luck<P>God bless<P>------------------<BR>Scott<p>[This message has been edited by Promised Forever (edited January 24, 2000).]

Here's an update:<P>I read and I read and I printed and I printed and then I read again. I also did the emotional needs survey and the love busters survey, but I haven't shared them with him yet. I'm waiting for him to do them. He came to me and asked what I was printing and if there was anything I wanted him to see. It opened a discussion. I didn't share everything with him yet. I guess I'm not ready, but I did tell him that I am in the withdrawal stage at this point. I also told him about the basic concepts, emotional needs and love busters. I thought he'd ridicule me, but he listened. I'm not sure that he took everything seriously, but he listened. I told him to get on here and check things out, because what I printed was what pertained to me. He will find things more relevant for himself when he logs on, I'm sure.<P>Anyway, I'm giving this thing a try. We'll see where it goes.... thanks, guys....

Kathy:<P>Plan A (and B) are for dealing with active affairs. Unfortunately, there's no spousal "agreement" clause in the plan---if they're having an affair, they're unlikely to work on the marriage.<P>As Promised Forever suggests, starting counseling with Steve Harley would be a great direction to go in. Steve will be able to get you much quicker results than if you try to go this route on your own. He'd also get your husband involved in the counseling---first by using him for "feedback" as to how you're doing with your new behaviors. But that process has the advantage of educating your husband to the Harley materials without YOU doing it first hand: education of your spouse can often become a lovebuster---no matter how well-intentioned.<P>Steve is terrific. The counseling is done by phone; although that may sound weird at first, it's extremely effective and very convenient. I did counseling with Steve for over a year while dealing with my wife's affair, and he was a life-saver (a marriage-saver as well). I also did some office counseling with local "experts" during the same period, and those counselors couldn't come close to Steve's effectiveness. So I'd urge you to seriously consider it (888-639-1639).<P>

K,I would like to try the counseling thing, but to be honest, I don't have enough money to do something like that. I'm pretty sure he won't spend it. He hasn't had a chance to look over any of the things I printed that he asked about. He hasn't taken either of the surveys.<P>Over the weekend, I asked him if he would be interested in my helping him obtain supplies for a dinner that's coming up. He said that he and the OW had already discussed going. They want to go to a nearby town to get supplies and stop at a tropical fish store while they're there. I offered to help with supplies and visit the fish store. I also offered to just go get the supplies if it would help take some of the pressure off of them.<P>His reply was "Now what am I going to do? I should just learn to say no." I'm not sure what exactly that meant, but the subject was dropped without being resolved. I don't know what will happen, but I offered to be supportive without negative comments or demands. <P>sigh.... life goes on. Most days I have a hard time making home a "pleasant place to live" because I just want to cry all of the time. I'm trying not to -- I'm trying to change my mind set, but it's very hard at times like I mentioned above.

Kathy:<P>While Steve isn't inexpensive ($85/session), he's very effective. My recommendation would be for you to grab a low-interest credit card and use it as a "mental health" card. 2-3 sessions will help you a lot. 10-20 sessions could have you in a marriage you love. 20 x $85 = $1700. That's not a very big price for a happy marriage---and it's a lot cheaper than divorce or a separation. Or taking care of your kids on your own.<P>I do feel for you---I know how difficult this situation seems, when you're willing to work hard, and your spouse isn't even acknowledging a problem. BUT---you can do all the work at first, and make a huge difference. They say that "it takes two working together to make a marriage"---while that may be true in the end, you'll find that one working effectively with the marriage in mind can get the marriage to the point of recovery, where the spouse is willing to do what it takes. All by leading---without demands or threats.<P>Steve was very effective in getting me there. I hope that you're successful, no matter what way you choose. You also mention feeling like crying all the time---there's a good chance that you're depressed, and getting on antidepressant medication (Zoloft, Welbutrin, etc.) will help you level out these moods, and give you longer staying power in this fight for your marriage.

Just wanted to let you all know that I'm trying. Over the last couple of weeks, I've tried to be very supportive, non-judgemental, non-threatening, quiet, kind and loving. He went away for a week to a conference. When he came home, I had flowers, candles, snacks and wine all set up in our bedroom. He seemed very appreciative, albeit a bit wary at the sudden change. I've also tried to be more interested and supportive of his activities. I ask about his day, listen attentively without making suggestions or corrections. I'm trying to do everything I can to bring us closer together. However, I think I overstepped last night and want to know what you all think.<P>He and OW had an all-night youth event last night at the church. There was one other adult guy there, too. Our daughter is also in the youth group. I had to work for the early part of the evening, so he took our son with him to the event. I went over to pick S up about 10:00PM and stayed to visit with H, OM, youth, D, etc. I avoided the OW, trying not to cause a scene. I stayed for about 2 hours, then took S home.<P>This morning, H was *very* angry. H said I caused an extremely difficult situation. Said I was not needed at youth events. Said he could hardly function for all of the tension in the atmosphere. He wanted to do his job and my presence there last night made him want to leave, but he couldn't. He showered and left the house about 3 hours ago. Didn't even seem to want to look at me.<P>I only wanted to help bring us closer together. I want to be involved in my daughter's youth group. I told him I was sorry -- I never dreamt that it would upset him so much. I thought I was always welcome to share his life. I thought I was always welcome at the church. <P>He told me I was welcome at all other events (choir, VBS, SS, women's groups, etc.) but *not* youth! (BTW, she participates in *all* of the above mentioned activities, too.) Tearfully, I asked why I could come to some things and not others? He didn't answer -- just left.<P>sigh.... I'm going to keep hanging in there. And I'm going to apologize to him when he comes back (again). What now?

I have sit here and cried while reading your situation. <P>I have to admit, if it were me, I'd take my children and leave. What kind of father figure is your husband setting for your son? Would you want his future wife to be treated the same? And for your daughter? If you were watching this movie on a television screen - the main character your daughter married to this type of husband - what would your advice to her be after seeing her work so hard and try so hard to make the marriage work? Wouldn't it pain you to no end that she is hurting so badly?<P>This "OW" is fulfilling his needs and as long as it continues this way, I personally think it's hard to fill needs that are already full. The only reason he stays is his ego. He doesn't want to go through an 'embarrassing' scene. Such as the "Youth" event at church. That's why he stays. Honey, find a man that will love YOU, no wrong, let GOD bring you the man you deserve. Leave him, he's already left you.<P>OR make him mad, spend the money on the counseling and get some answers. YOU deserve them.<BR>

Kathy,<P>It's seems as though you're making progress to me. It may not seem like it to you at times, and the gut reaction that Tygger has is common (and counter-productive), but please remember that there are three states of a relationship: intimacy, conflict, and withdrawal. When you hit withdrawal, that's when you're in big trouble. You seem to be between intimacy and conflict most of the time. Conflict is never pleasant, but it's much better than withdrawal---if you learn to effectively manage conflict (by not lovebusting), you will draw your husband back to intimacy. Harley's books are great for illustrating this---another good one is Susan Page's "How one of you can bring the two of you together".<P>You asked a reasonable question (about what church groups your husband would be comfortable having you attend, and why not youth). He gave an answer to the first part, but not the second (the why). Use the answer to the first question to your benefit---attend the things with him that he said he was comfortable with, and don't attend the youth group unless you ask and he says "OK". The probable reason that he didn't answer the second question is that there's no answer that would make sense (to him as well). He's just being selfish, stubborn, and exhibiting very poor marital behavior. But that's not news to you... .<P>However, by you asking, and then not lovebusting (and perhaps even apologizing later), you force him to look in the mirror. By continuing living by the "Plan A" rules and absolute honesty (without lovebusting), you're going to be showing him two things:<P>1. As a wife, you are capable of caring about him and changing your behaviors to be the kind of wife he wants ('needs').<P>2. As a husband, he's not doing a very good job of reciprocating.<P>This will cause him conflict---there's no way to get out of this situation without it. But the way you cause this conflict is through positively demonstrating correct marital behavior---not by punishing him.<P>Personally, I think you're doing great. I would suggest this "Plan A" behavior for at least 6 months if you can handle it---you need to establish a consistant track record of these new behaviors so that he's no longer wary of it, but he learns to depend on it and appreciate you for it. This may be enough for him to see the errors of his ways. If not, it sets you up for an EFFECTIVE separation. Should you need to leave him (only because this is getting too hard---not as a "stunt" to force him into a decision), you will have left him with the memories of a wife who was loving, patient, and was trying her best to make the marriage a great place. Often times a separation brings the OP and the spouse together for a time---that's very hard on the betrayed spouse, but it can also serve to end the affair quickly. Their relationship is based on fantasy, and the injection of the reality of a separation and losing one's family is often a bit more "reality" than an affair relationship can handle.<P>You're doing great!!! Again, keep up the plan A efforts, and if you can work out a plan for counseling, that would be terrific.<p>[This message has been edited by K (edited February 16, 2000).]

Kathy--<P>I've got some thoughts on your situation, but don't have time to post! I will asap, probably tonight.<P>K's advice is excellent. Follow the path he's helping you develop.<P>Laura

Thank you, thank you, thank you.... I needed that uplift, K. I needed to know that I didn't lovebust and that I was doing what I should. I read something in one of these areas (I've been to *so* many)that I've made my motto.<P>1. Would you be a doormat for 3 months if you won a million dollars?<P>2. Do you want to be right or do you want to be married? <P>Those two things are helping me keep this in perspective. Although what Tygger and others have told me is exactly what I thought for a *long* time, I had to ask myself what I wanted most. And although the emotional pain is extremely difficult, he's not beating me, he's not drunk, he's in my bed every night, he loves the children and says he loves me, he says he wants to work on the marriage, too. These things are all positive signs.<P>I will not kid you -- I have cried myself to sleep several nights. He continues to see more of her than I'd like, but I sense that he's opening up to me -- trusting me with his thoughts more than he used to -- just a little bit. I think he's beginning to sense that I won't make a Disrespectful Judgement or a Selfish Demand everytime something comes out of his mouth.<P>I thought the same thing, K. He was probably tense due to his feeling uneasy. I'm being as patient as I can possibly be and it's beginning to disturb him a little bit. He doesn't have a reason to run to her right now. That's a *very* good feeling! And probably rather bewildering for him. (tee,hee)<P>Laura, I'm anxious to hear your advice, too. I know you all are busy people with your own lives, but I've been checking back here every day, waiting for a response. I was so happy to hear from you guys! Thank you -- you made my day!<P>Hanging in there----<P>Kathy<P>

Kathy,<P>Trust me, I know how tough it is. When I discovered my wife's affair, it was a complete shock. I immediately started counseling with Steve Harley (over 2 years ago). I did 6 months of "Plan A" while she continued to have her affair. It was very difficult, but I felt like I had some control over what I was doing, as opposed to "reacting" to the insanity of the affair. I did end up in a separation---I left my wife and two children because the constant pain of the affair was getting to be too much for me to handle without lovebusting. The separation lasted two months---I moved back after she discovered that she was pregnant by the OM. Although the affair wasn't over, I saw this as a great "Plan A" opportunity, and I was pretty sure that the affair couldn't last much longer with a baby on the way.<P>We are now in a marriage that's much better than it ever was (although there's always room for improvement). I have a beautiful son who's a little over a year old. <P>These methods truly can work---they may seem counterintuitive at first, but as you fully understand the process, you begin to see the wisdom in them. Steve was my coach through the process, and he was terrific. I tell you all this to encourage you to work through the process---there was a very long time when I felt that I was having no effect on my wife. I was learning good behaviors for myself---which would help my success in a future relationship---but I really didn't think it was affecting my wife.<P>I was wrong. It's what gave me my shot at reconciliation. So "stay the course"---and good luck!

Ok, Kathy, sorry it took me so long to respond! Here I am, for as much as my two cents will be worth…..I think you are so on the RIGHT track. K will guide you, and I’m very glad to see he’s “on the case.” He’s a gem of inspiration and his relationship wisdom knows no bounds, the result of common sense and been there/done that experience. <P>My replies are usually more like a potpourri of thoughts. Pick and choose, or discard. One musing I had concerning your situation…where is this woman’s H? Is he involved in church activities, etc.? Perhaps the twosome’s friendship could expand to include you and her H. I’m working partially on the “if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em” theory, but also a gentle altering of how their friendship is right now….a little too intimate for your comfort. While you develop ways to phase her out as your H’s emotional needs’ crutch by supporting his needs yourself, a foursome instead might put their friendship back into a more appropriate light. If you decide to explore this possibility, go easy, and obviously it will depend on the activity as to how well you can stand being around this woman yourself! <P>Back in the “old days”—before our communication techniques graduated (ha)—my H/then fiance managed a rock band. Whew, the POJA certainly wasn’t a part of the picture then! Our arguments got so heated, H told me I was not welcome at any of the shows...while his manipulative Ex was an avid fan and always there! Now while we’d both exhibited poor communication, I’d pushed him into that defensive corner. I used demands and harsh judgements. He feared I would create a scene and embarrass him. I would never do that according to my standards—which are high, but more importantly, he lost his trust in me due to our arguing. And THAT was what I had to work on—restoring that trust. While the band situation was resolving, I was also slowly working on delicate ways to have my emotional needs met by him willingly. I was pretty busy then ‘cause H is a tough nut to crack… <P>Your romantic evening seems to have helped too! <P>Men are logical creatures. Continue Plan A-ing, and he won’t have a defense left to your involvement with the youth group. Once he sees that your motivation is not to block her (and we won’t tell him even if it is, la-la-la), but to be more involved with him, he’ll come ‘round. Somehow I don’t think it’s a PA…do you get the feeling it’s a kind of “puppy love” friendship?<BR>

Lucks --<P>The OW's H is *not* a church-goer. He's in the National Guard, a real tough guy. Threatened my H once. My H won't even call OW's house, for fear her H will pick up the phone. Not a good situation. Frankly, the OW's H frightens me -- I don't want him involved at all. He knows when his W is at the church, but I don't think he realizes how often the two of them are alone. Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think it'll work.... <P>I related to your story about the band thing. Seems the OW can do no wrong, but every little thing I do is annoying and irritating to him. <P>I had the feeling from everyone I've talked to that K was good at this. I feel fortunate that he's taken an interest in my case. Thanks, K.<P>I really feel for you, K. I cannot imagine how it would feel to know they were actually sleeping together -- I'm 85% sure they've never even kissed. So I feel fortunate in that. You are a *very* big-hearted, kind, considerate, forgiving person, K. I hope I reach that point someday. You've even opened<BR>your arms to the child -- a commendable thing. I would probably do that, too. The child deserves a chance at a good life.<P>Today was rough again. In an effort to open lines of communication, I asked whether a problem at the church had been resolved. H. clammed up and when I asked what I'd said wrong, he snapped "Why do you have to know every little detail of my life? It's annoying. You always need to know everything!" I cried and apologized, saying I was just curious about his day. He didn't say anything else, but later, when we both returned from evening activities, he asked why I was sad. I told him, respectfully, that I felt like I couldn't even ask about his day, but I felt as if he could tell OW everything -- she didn't even need to ask. Again, no response. Could it be he's thinking?<P>sigh.... it hurts, but it's nice to know there are other people who are going through or have gone through this, too. Thanks a lot you guys. With your help, I just keep plugging away.<P>

Give us an update, Kathy. How are you doing?