Lucks --<P>Hmmm....how am I doing? Today I feel like I've been hit by a truck. We did a lot of talking yesterday morning. I think some progress was made. He told me that I was more important to him than she is -- a good sign. We also worked out a few other misunderstandings that resulted from poor communication in the past. He's very defensive and protective of her. I feel like I have to mend this thing from the outside in -- does that make sense? We have to talk about mending our relationship without talking about the main reason it's falling apart. He refuses to even think about separating from her. Still can't understand why he can't have us both. sigh...<P>He also told me he writes to her everyday. He was up at 7 AM today to e-mail her. This is in addition to calling her nearly everyday and seeing her at least 3 times a week. Usually their visits begin with a meeting, but they always stay, telling everyone else that "we'll lock up". Tonight they'll both be over there "preparing" for tomorrow. I have no idea why that takes 3 hours.... (some of the anger is just below the surface -- can you tell? I don't show it to him, though..)<P>I re-read alot of my material (from this site) this morning. It helps keep me going when I feel like this. I always find something new to lean on. Ah well ... as you can see from this forum, I'm not the only one with problems. So I'm just going to go take a couple of Tylenol and get through my day....<P>Thanks.

Kathy--<P>I think I've been slow in fully understanding your situation. Your H is a minister? For some reason, I had it in my head that he was just very active in the church youth group. If I've grasped the situation now, that you're a minister's wife and also have another job, there's a different light to this....<P>This woman is most definitely supplying some of your H's important emotional needs. She listens to him, agrees with him, perhaps inspires him with ideas (and lets him take credit for them or think they were originally his), she's available when HE is available. And, more available to him in terms of actual time somehow than you. That last one especially might be a toughie.<P>Why DOES it take 3 hrs. to finish up "business" together? I would feel just as concerned as you do. <P>Can you check their e-mail exchanges without detection? I suggest this not to create a confrontation. It may help you understand the situation better and what areas you may be able to work on providing for him yourself.<P>Thoughts...how about "embracing" this woman's role in BOTH your lives. The gracious wife. Thank her for giving up so much of her own personal life with her H (uhm, subtle point) in order to be available for YOUR H's work (another point). Start exhibiting a "new air" of confidence in your marriage. Be affectionate with your H around her (if you haven't been recently, go slow with this, or he'll know what you're up to). ASK about her H in greeting, perhaps while your arm is linked with your H's (a picture paints a thousand words). Hey, even mention a new idea they're developing to her in front of him, giving him loving credit for the whole thing. "Isn't he wonderful?" (This is more for his benefit, love units deposited for you!) I'm seeing a possibility here...keep presenting an image to both of them--she's "over there," while you two stand side-by-side. <P>Another brain eruption here, could be quirky...how about showing her any little gift from your H, as if in confiding friendship? (Bleah, I know) Tweak it with a few phrases like, "I love him so much," "I'm so glad he's my H," "aren't I lucky," "he's so good to me." And if he mentions noticing your talk, just say "oh, it's a secret. I was just telling her what a wonderful man I think you are." I'd go farther myself..."and I'm glad you're mine," but he might take offense to that in his defensiveness. He'll probably be complimented enough without it if that's going too far. <P>If he's spending late nights talking with her, doesn't that cut in severely on the time you two can spend together? Maybe you could bring this up gently, NOT mentioning her, but that you miss him soooo much...(more of that pumping the male ego thing). Ask him might he be able to come home earlier a couple of nights a week so that you two can spend quality time together? A little at a time. From your other posts, he seems to respond to your needs when pointed out by helping with the house and the kids more--so now you need more time alone with him. Show your appreciation when he DOES respond, and when he can't (or mutinously doesn't due to time with her), express your disappointment in an engaging manner with little kisses and touches, and brightly ask if maybe next week he can find more time to spend with you. <P>In another post, you mentioned thinking of your sister as your best friend and how that hurt H's feelings. Wonder if revisiting that thought might be of assistance? That you'd been thinking about it and now understand how hurtful that was, though unintentional. You've really been thinking about that, and actually, he IS your best friend, you'd just never thought of it that way. Thank him for enlightening you, it's so nice to be best friends with a spouse, you're glad you're HIS best friend (point, la-la-la, now move outta dah way, OW).<P>Did any of this help? I hope you feel better soon. It sure does take a lot of energy feeling bad about things, doesn't it? I was sapped out with that concert situation a couple of days ago, silly/not silly though it was in the big scheme of things. Btw, part of our argument was because H took offense that I insinuated he would place me in a risky or insulting situation--he fancies himself my protector and I insulted HIM! Oops! We opposites dance on a tightwire sometimes.

I have to vent before I address your letter, Lucks.<P>I am *so* angry right now!! What a jerk! I didn't show him my anger -- just my hurt. But as soon as he left, I was down here, just like you were the other day.<P>He got up this AM to write to her, just like always. I couldn't go back to sleep, knowing he was down here (with her). So I began reading over my MB stuff again. When he came up, I told him I didn't think I'd go to church today. I don't really feel quite up to facing OW today. I feel really drained.<P>His response: I'm sorry. (I'm thinking, this could lead somewhere.) So I asked "Sorry for what?" You know what he said?!!! "I'm sorry that it has to be this way for you."<P>*Has* to be?! *Has to be*?!!!!! Why does it *have* to be this way? Excuse me -- if you see the pain you're causing me then..just...stop... doing... it!!!! It isn't that hard. Just don't hurt me anymore!! What do you mean it *has* to be this way?!! RRRRRRRrrrrrrr...... I was so angry I couldn't speak. I just started to cry and he left.<P>After reading your letter, Lucks, I thought maybe I'd try to get there after all. I have been (sort of) trying some of the suggestions you've made. I have been trying to create more of a "two-of-us" picture for her. I've been standing with him more often, trying to be more involved in things, etc. I feel like right now he's grudingly bearing it, but can't say anything because he knows I have a right to be there -- whether he likes it or not. Anyway, I'm going to print off your suggestions and read them over again. Thanks for the help.<P>And yes, he is a minister. She's the church organist, co-youth director, director of Bible School, on the worship committee, on the administrative board, on the council on ministries, participates in the praise band, etc., etc., etc. Let's put it this way -- every time he turns around, she's there.<P>sigh... I need to look up something else on here, so I'd better get moving. I just needed to let off some steam. Thanks for listening....<P>

Kathy--<P>I'm going to think more about your situation and intend to post more later. I AM thinking about you and hope you do something good for yourself today. Perk up, kiddo, you're letting your emotions fog up the glass. <P>How about later, when it feels right, a discussion with H. Mention that his words disturbed you, and got you to thinkin' at the same time....he said, "I'm sorry that it has to be this way for you." Thank him for his apology and his genuine efforts to help you (minute though they may be, shhhh). But what you realized is that it DOESN'T have to be "this way." You are going to work on ways to feel happier despite a situation that does bother you, and you love and trust him to help you in this endeavor...after all, he IS wonderful, and kind, and giving, and yadda, yadda, yadda (gets old complimenting when you don't feel like it, but keep it up, it's a good thing). You may be able to ask HIM for suggestions without offering your own first. How about telling him sometimes you get involved in looking at the situation one way, selfishly. You feel he spends too much time with her. You feel jealous and distrustful, sad emotions we all try to rise above, but human ones. What you FORGET sometimes, is that her situation is really the sad one. While she involves herself wholly in the church, admirable qualities and very helpful to him (barf!), she is also neglecting her marriage...and what a pity. And by taking so many positions within the church upon herself, she could be blocking the way for others to feel involved (point), but maybe she really needs this participation to feel better about OTHER aspects of her life. So, for that reason, you are going to try to have more tolerance of her, and you hope H will listen to your honest feelings and understand. Flutter, kisses, you are NOT closed during this conversation. After all, you hope HE will open up, right? <P>Whatcha think?<BR><P>------------------<BR>Laura<P>"I cannot care a little for you. I love you only just enough to love you all the way."~~Rod McKuen

Lucks -<P>Thanks again for the help. I might try one (or more) of these things when I feel up to it.<P>Church this morning was rather ugly. Since I was feeling so puny, I kind of hung in the background -- not my usual position. It was noticed. The OW is now feeling puny, too. Wierd, huh? When I got home from church (after talking things over with a friend) I felt better, but weary. H. thought he was going to get yelled at... But -- he didn't! Point for me. I merely asked for a hug, told him I wasn't mad and moved on with our day. I had plans for this afternoon, and when I got home, he seemed genuinely concerned about me. Asked how I was doing, etc. Apologized (although I don't know what for)and said we'd talk later tonight. <P>Gotta run. Thanks again for the suggestions. Your thinking puts a different twist on the situation than I'm usually able to come up with. <P>See ya --<BR>me

Lucks -<P>A little off the subject, but I just read your profile. You'll never believe this -- I lived in that area for about 8 years! Isn't that wild? I worked in Lexington for 3 years at Cardinal Hill Hospital. My daughter was born at Central Baptist. Small world, huh?

Boy, do I empathize! My H is, perhaps, further along than yours in that he got to the point of recognizing that his EA was out of line...but not before his heart was truly hooked.<BR>Like you said earlier, mine is still here, still in my bed, loves the kids, says he loves me (just not "in-love"). But he feels he is "in-love" with the OW. They work together, but are in different depts., and have been avoiding each other for the last couple of months. And, I do believe that they never even kissed. But, it is very obvious how much he misses her (they have a "psychic bond" so even tho they don't talk, he knows she's thinking of him!!!!!! He can feel her "touch his heart, like a physical touch"!!! I'm thinking he's flipped a gasket). <BR>Last weekend we went out of town together...half was great, the other half he was very moody, ended up crying in my arms bcs he missed her (I held him and comforted him, bcs I love him and he was in pain, but it really depressed me to see his feelings are still so strong).<BR>I do believe Plan A makes a lot of sense. It is really hard sometimes, though. Progress is slow and seems to come in fits and starts. I do see progress. Generally, I see a day where things seem better and then the next day he seems very sad and withdrawn again. Over the course of 5 or 6 weeks, tho, the progress is easier to see. <BR>Sometimes, I get tired of being so nice all the time...sound familiar? It is hard to be pleasant when you are in such a difficult place, isn't it? Hang in there--<BR>Kathi

Kathy--<P>My youngest daughter is a Central Baptist baby, and I have a relative who worked at Cardinal Hill Hospital. VERY small world! <P>Yes, weird OW was feeling puny too. I wonder if she relates to you, to the point of wanting to BE you? Hmmm. Or, you were getting noticed, so she decided to try the same thing. Then again, maybe she was sick. What a trooper.<P>Did you and H have your talk last night? What happened?<P>Laura

Hi guys.<P>Kam, your letter was so cool because it was so close to what I'm dealing with. Up until I found all of you guys, I thought I was alone in this. Isn't it nice to find out you're not? I cannot imagine him crying in my arms b/c he missed her. How very sad for you....<P>Last night when mine came home and we finally had a chance to catch up on the day's events, he came in here and got on-line. I just came in and laid down on the couch across the room so I could talk to him a little bit -- now and then. He asked me if I was falling asleep and I said maybe. I told him I was kind of waiting on him b/c I hadn't seen him all day and missed him. (point) He clicked around for a few minutes. I think he really wanted to IM the OW, but I was here and so he sighed, clicked off and *stomped* upstairs and heaved himself into bed. He wouldn't look at me, would barely talk to me and tossed and turned most of the night. It was a long night. I'm very tired right now.<P>However, on the bright side, on Sunday night he came in and said "I have to apologize." I asked why and he said "I read some of your e-mail stuff by mistake. I quit reading when I figured out what it was." (stuff from here) I told him I had nothing to hide from him and didn't mind if he read things. One of the things he picked up was the four steps to a successful marriage. He read it and decided that honesty would help our relationship. He could (finally!) understand what that meant to me -- knowing where and how he spends his days. Yay!!! He also read through the 10 emotional needs and thought he had me pretty well picked out. He was right on most of them. But he wasn't ready to do the survey himself yet. (He hates surveys anyway.) It opened up some new fields of communication. So, Lucks, there is your answer. Our conversation on Sunday went well, thank you.<P>You're right, Kam, it comes in fits and starts. And you have to be patient(something he told me I need to work on) and you have to be in it for the long haul.<P>I had a women's mtg. at my house tonight. OW was there -- feeling --- hmmm--- shall we say *slightly* uncomfortable? She was very quiet and very withdrawn -- not her usual self. Perhaps she senses a change in the wind and that she may not be needed for everything in his life before much longer. Shall we pray? <P>Thanks guys -- talk to you soon!<P>Kathy

Kathy:<P>Sounds like progress to me... <P>Here's a thing you might want to do. Seeing that your husband is a minister, he probably does pre-marital counseling for couples about to marry. Harley has a wonderful book for this: the Four Gifts of Love (yes... it's the Four Rules for a Successful Marriage in disguise). The book is beautiful---I've used in as a wedding/engagement present, and also taken a couple through it for pre-marital counseling.<P>Buy it (available on this site), and have him read it and see if the material would be of help in his pre-marital counseling (which it would be). There's also an obvious benefit for your marriage if he's exposed to this.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kathy1245:<BR><B>Hi guys.<P>Kam, your letter was so cool because it was so close to what I'm dealing with. Up until I found all of you guys, I thought I was alone in this. Isn't it nice to find out you're not? I cannot imagine him crying in my arms b/c he missed her. How very sad for you....<P>Last night when mine came home and we finally had a chance to catch up on the day's events, he came in here and got on-line. I just came in and laid down on the couch across the room so I could talk to him a little bit -- now and then. He asked me if I was falling asleep and I said maybe. I told him I was kind of waiting on him b/c I hadn't seen him all day and missed him. (point) He clicked around for a few minutes. I think he really wanted to IM the OW, but I was here and so he sighed, clicked off and *stomped* upstairs and heaved himself into bed. He wouldn't look at me, would barely talk to me and tossed and turned most of the night. It was a long night. I'm very tired right now.<P>However, on the bright side, on Sunday night he came in and said "I have to apologize." I asked why and he said "I read some of your e-mail stuff by mistake. I quit reading when I figured out what it was." (stuff from here) I told him I had nothing to hide from him and didn't mind if he read things. One of the things he picked up was the four steps to a successful marriage. He read it and decided that honesty would help our relationship. He could (finally!) understand what that meant to me -- knowing where and how he spends his days. Yay!!! He also read through the 10 emotional needs and thought he had me pretty well picked out. He was right on most of them. But he wasn't ready to do the survey himself yet. (He hates surveys anyway.) It opened up some new fields of communication. So, Lucks, there is your answer. Our conversation on Sunday went well, thank you.<P>You're right, Kam, it comes in fits and starts. And you have to be patient(something he told me I need to work on) and you have to be in it for the long haul.<P>I had a women's mtg. at my house tonight. OW was there -- feeling --- hmmm--- shall we say *slightly* uncomfortable? She was very quiet and very withdrawn -- not her usual self. Perhaps she senses a change in the wind and that she may not be needed for everything in his life before much longer. Shall we pray? <P>Thanks guys -- talk to you soon!<P>Kathy</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Kathy,<P>I am new in here but I have read the whole affair that has been going on here. My pastor just did a men's conference about the Drama of Seduction. He is an excellent preacher and very strong in his marriage and in dealing with men in society (especially Pasor's) who are involved with affairs and immorality (as he calls it). Our church has a website <A HREF="http://www.fbcw.org" TARGET=_blank>www.fbcw.org</A> which has a prayer board. We also have a tape ministry where you can order our pastor's sermons. I think you would really benefit from these and so would your husband. I will pray for you.<BR>

.<p>[This message has been edited by Alma (edited February 28, 2000).]