People say they are honest... they say that they are telling the truth and that they are telling you all there is to know...<P>But how often are we *truely* honest about things? I am sure a lot of you reading this will stand atop your mountain of purity and scream at the top of your lungs "*I* am COMPELTELY honest!!!" and you will genuinely believe that you are...<P>WRONG!<P>Now, now... calm down... take a deep breath and listen to this.<P>When you fall in love with someone an amazing metamorphosis occurs. Suddenly the opinion that someone else has about you takes on monumental proportions. It becomes so large a thing that you are terrified of awakening it, fearful of upsetting it and will do anything (YES, even LIE) to keep it at bay.<P>When our partner asks "Do you like this dress?", we don't want to upset them and so we lose our honesty and say "Yes Dear".<P>When it comes to sex and we are seeking something, we think to ourselves "I *cannot* tell my partner I would like to try this, she will think me a beast"... and so we let it rest hidden and fester.<P>I think its about time we reached a level of honesty that goes beyond our fear for once.<P>Opinions?

Honest! Well I have been a very open and honest person on most evry issue. Yes there are deep thoughts that I keep to myself but that doesn't mean dihonesty. I agree with you but honesty can caus emuch pain when it comes to relationships. Sexually no that is if you are with a secure person. Personally this can cause conflict. So keeping your mouth shut at times is the best bet.

Momx2:<BR>Perhaps if you told me what issues you were not honest on I could give you the way of being honest on them.<P>If your thoughts would adversely affect the other person, doesn't that mean they deserve to know what those thoughts were? I mean if it can hurt them so much it means they are obviously important and usually thoughts like that are what build up and fester and eventually cause the relationship to break up anyway.<P>If you can give me ONE example where keeping your mouth shut is a BETTER solution then I will show you have NOT keeping your mouth shut would make it even BETTER again

Okay - honesty - hmmmmm I am usually honest about everything with my partner. You are lucky if you get a reaction out of your partner, because mine ignores me. I have tried the very very honest approach, I feel that it is important in a realtionship to be able to be completely honest. I think what the real issue here is, does the honesty help or hinder efforts to overcome problems. If the honesty gets good conversation going and results - YES! But I have found that when you are honest that sometimes your partner will pretend to listen then not do anything about it. I think that honesty is for the person that expresses it - it helps you to get things out and that is what is important. If you have a real need to express your feelings you should be able to without fear of being punished for it. Honesty is always the best policy. <P>An example for me is that I just had a baby and I feel very unattractive 3 months later. I tell my H how ugly I feel, looking for some type of support, but alas - just a comfirmation of yes you do look unattractive takes place. H says well you should work out more, you have had 4 kids what do you expect. So the moral of this example is that if you are going to be honest, expect honesty back.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AllyStar:<BR>You are lucky if you get a reaction out of your partner, because mine ignores me.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>H says well you should work out more, you have had 4 kids what do you expect. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sounds to me like you got a reaction, just not the one you wanted. Soemtimes, we think we want an honest answer, and then when we get one it hurts. But even if it hurts, it's ometimes necessary. <P>If I ask my husband if an article of clothing I'm wearing makes me look fat, he's stumped as to what to say. If he says, "No. You look fine." I might accuse him of lying. If he says "Yes, it does". I might respond with "Well thanks alot!". It really depends on my mood whether I REALLY want an honest answer to a question like that. I might be going somewhere and want to know if it makes me look fat so I can change into something else that will make me look less fat and not embarrass myself. OR I might not have something to change into and I'm looking for confirmation that what I'm wearing looks OK so I will be more self-assured when I go out.<P>He has NO clue which answer I'm looking for and so usually responds with the one likely to cause the least damage "You look fine".<P>It would be nice if I could trust his answer, though. Because most of the time I think he's lying when he says that (because most of the time he is?) If I got an occasional "Yes, you look fat in that" I might be more inclined to believe the "You look fine" statements.<P>Maybe agreeing on some kind of signal that says "I REALLY want an honest answer this time. Give it to me staright. I can take it." will convey to him which answer I REALLY want. I'll have to give that a try...<BR>

There is a clause on honesty though...<P>It must come from BOTH people...<P>if you only get ONE being honest then you have to wonder why you are together if only half of the relationship wants to come forward with that they feel.

I am of the opinion that there are different levels of honesty. As long as the best interest of the person you are with is in your heart, sparing their feelings is an acceptable area for dishonesty. This is where trust comes in. There isn't a person on earth that has been totally honest for their entire life. Honesty at the expense of another's feelings is unacceptable as long as there is no harm in sparing the truth. Comparing the need for honesty in answer to the age old question of "Does this dress make me look fat," and "Are you having an affair," is ridiculous. Unfortunately, there is no black or white where honesty is concerned. This is why we need to trust the person we are with. If we truly trust the person we are with, we will trust that the answer is, at the very least, more honest than dishonest and our best interest was weighed into the choice of answers. People aren't capable of complete and total honesty without hurting another at some point. <P>"Does this dress make me look fat?" <P>"You're not fat, dear. But you do have other dresses that look nicer on you." <P>That is more honest than dishonest, spares at least some of her feelings and keeps hubby out of trouble.<P>"Are you having an affair?"<P>It's either yes or no, here. There is no way to avoid it. Yes, if the answer is yes, it will hurt the one asking the question, but it is in her best interest to know the truth. But, as we all know, if you need to ask that question there can't possibly be much trust going on in that relationship. Perhaps if we all watched the movie "Liar, Liar" with Jim Carey, we'd get an idea what would happen if everyone was completely honest about everything.<P>In closing....i don't believe that honesty entails telling everything there is to know. Honesty, by definition, is:<BR>Fairness and uprightness. Truthfulness. Freedom from deceit or fraud

Linnie:<BR>You said that "as long as the other persons best interests are at heart"<P>Wouldn't that mean that if I had been unfaithful in the past and it was now over that it would be best to NEVER mention it or bring it up because it would hurt the person?<BR>

Lost Soul,<P>I can't see the point in telling a loved one about a past indescretion as long as you are completely committed to the marriage now. If, at some point, you are asked directly, "Have you ever had an affair," this is where one's conscience kicks in. It's a judgement call...hopefully one made with the best interest of the other person, the marriage and the future of the two of you as a couple taken into consideration. Again, i believe that trust is the cornerstone of any good relationship. Earning, deserving and maintaining that trust is up to the individual.<P>My husband and i have had a few small incidents where our trust of one or the other is challenged, but the depth of our trust allows us to talk it over and accept that we are committed to one another. We both agree that there is no way our marriage can work if we do not trust one another. <P>No one is perfect and things will happen that will cause you to question your spouse's actions but, with a solid foundation of trust, it is merely a "speedbump" from which one can recover. Extra-marital affairs are completely excluded from the "speedbump" category, though!!!

Wow - It is ironic that this topic should come across just when I needed it most. You see, I am at a point where my dishonesty has almost (and may still) caused me to lose my H. He often tells me that we have two different sets of values, that one of my "values" is being dishonest, and he can not be with that type of person. I admit, I do tell little white lies here and there, largely to protect him, or prevent a fight from happening. He is very jealous and I used to be a fairly flirtatious person (prior to our becoming romantically involved) and so my justification was always that I was preventing a fight from happening. I realize this to be the wrong way to go about things and have just now made the call to a therapist to try and address how I can stop this. My biggest fear is losing my husband, aside from fights of this nature, he is the most wonderful person in the world, my best friend and soulmate. When he does catch me in a white lie (and it is at the point now where he tests me frequently to see if I am lying), the fight that ensues is horrible, and I fear that he is going to leave me. How does that saying go? "It's the action, not the intention?" Anyways, while my intention (in my mind) is always to keep a harmonious relationship, I understand that the action can have much more negative consequences. So how do I solve it?<BR>I don't really know if I've contributed anything to this discussion, but if anyone has any insight, I would love to hear it.

I think honesty is revealed in many ways, including ways that don't include words. <P>Eventually the truth comes out, no matter how hard we try for it not to.<P>Also, many times we already know the truth. We ask questions that would corner a person into a lie, and that's what we get.<P>I think it's mean for women to ask the question "Do these clothes make me look fat?"<P>Women, please consider the position you're putting your man in! Do you think we like to lie? Do you hear us guys asking you if you think our "you know what" is big? No, because in most cases we already know it's not.<P>Honestly, how about some consideration?<P><BR>

I agree with Skel in that honesty isn't always about words. If we are repeatedly exhibiting behaviors that make us feel the need to lie about it in order to keep harmony, the primary problem isn't the lie...it's the behavior. Perhaps, Blueberry, it would serve you well to examine the behaviors that you are lying about. Your lies don't seem to be motivated by the best interest of the other person or the relationship, but more by the best interest of you getting away with behaviors that the other person would deem inappropriate. You are not sparing his feelings, you are attempting to spare yourself a hassle and in the end, all you get is more hassle than if you'd owned up in the first place. This is a basic childhood lesson....better to accept the consequences of your behavior by telling the truth than to have to accept the consequences of your behavior AND the consequences of the lie when you are found out. Repeated behaviors that are lied about are, in my opinion, deceitful, harmful and completely unfair....not to mention extremely disrespectful.

Thank you Linnie, I believe you have some extremely valid points. My avoidance of hassle and fighting is spurred by my fear of losing my H, hence the lies that crop up. I think I have probably spent too much time focussing on the lie and need to address the behaviour which must stop. We had a huge fight last night about this and I will be starting therapy next week. God, I hope it helps. I think the most terrifying element is knowing that, due to my lies, I have destroyed the trust that my H. has in me - is there any hope at rebuilding this?

Blueberry,<P>The only one that can answer your question is your husband. In order to earn his trust back, he has to be willing to take the risk. You will best display your commitment to earning that trust back by changing your behaviors and owning up to your mistakes regardless whether the truth will cause disappointment or not. Imagine the disappointment your husband feels when you lie to him. It hurts and insults him when you lie to him. I've found that anger can be a result of being hurt. Lying about a behavior that your husband would find inappropriate only doubles the hurt he would feel if you'd told him the truth in the first place. Your owning up to your shortcomings and seeking help in an attempt to improve yourself is admirable but you must be committed to the cause if you are to have any chance at all of earning your husband's trust back. I think an honest, open conversation would be a good place to start, then tell the truth!

BlueBerry:<P>I am going to ask you a question and I honestly and truely hope you dont get upset by it.... but I read everything you said and you are extremely similar to a few other people I know.<P><BR>Did you truely tell little white lies to "protect" your husband and to stop fights?<P>OR<P>Did you tell little white lies to draw attention away from the fact you had done something wrong or FELT you did something wrong?<P>The reason I ask this is as follows :-<P>1. If your husband beeded "protecting" then<BR> it meant you did something that hurt him<BR>2. If it was something that would cause a<BR> fight, obviously it was enough to hurt him<P>Both of these things say that the "truth" are things that hurt him... and regardless whether they are right or wrong the end result is that your husband would be hurt as a result of your actions...<P>So I am thinking here that perhaps you told those lies so that you did not have to come to the realisation that something you did hurt the person you loved. I think your H picked up on this... hence the reason for most of the fights ;-)<P>Its a vicious circle but the greatest words of wisdom I could ever give you is this :<P>"Sometimes things we do with good intentions cause harm"

LostSoul - yes, I can relate so much to that last quote. I feel that my reasoning for the little white lies is to maintain harmony and not fight so much. Obviously, I have realized that this does not work (hence the therapy and writing in here). We have reached such a low point with our fighting that I just wanted it all to stop, and *I* knew that I wasn't cheating on my H, and that I loved him "till death do us part", and so the white lies came in - not so much lies, but omissions, I guess. It is only now that I realize that, while I may be convinced of my love for him, he is not - largely a result of the breakdown of trust caused by the lies and omissions.<BR>So....what now? I hope that therapy will help. I wish I knew of some way to work on rebuilding the trust in the meantime.<BR>Thank you, lostsoul and linnie for presenting the "other side" of this in a way that my partner can not calmly do.

There is a saying I know of that says "If you call a cat a dog long enough, both the person calling them that and the cat itself will start to believe".<P>It always starts out with little white lies (notice how the term "lie" was played down by yourself... that is a sign that you are trying to lessen its "value").. and is then ommissions... and eventually it becomes so ingraned and second nature that you don't even realise you are lying and may even violently reprimand someone for saying you do.<P>The fact is that no matter whether it was little, white, ommitted or whatever... its the effect of the lie that counts... not the size of it. A needle might look small compared to a sword... so you call it a "little white sword"... but if you stick it in someones eye it will cause more pain than anything else on earth.<P>There is only one thing that I think you can do now to start regaining the trust. Because these lies you have told have been played down, often others will consider you lying because you never say a bad thing about yourself... Its always someone elses fault, it was beyond your control, I didn't do it... someone else must of.<P>If you want his trust back you are going to have to start telling him the truth... and I dont mean just those bits that "keep" you in a good light... I mean telling him things that are truthful that make YOU look bad.<P>I know this may seem strange, but when a person can talk honestly about their own faults and weaknesses, when they can "come clean" about what they have done wrong without having to be drawn into a fight to get there... trust SLOWLY rebuilds.<P>So if the truth is "Yeah, I was inconsiderate, I wanted that for myself and I am sorry" your H will realise what a position of weakness you are putting yourself in to try and rebuild trust and will think "There is *NO* way she would have admitted that unless she is trying".<P>I spent 3 years with someone who just recently told me she cared little for me during the relationship. After hearing that I overlayed the events of the past 3 years with this NEW knowledge and suddenly everything made sense. I know every way that a person can lie and I can spot every one of them from a mile away... And every time I hear someone lie directly to my face... regardless how "little" and "white" it is the only thing I can think is "This person has absolutely no respect nor consideration for me... they thing of THEMSELVES first and the world last"... and my feelings for them turn away.<P>This person just keeps on lying now... they have turned it into an artform and have even managed to convince themselves they are right

I am guilty of all that you have mentioned - I have been trying to lessen the "value", and I guess, rationalize it in my mind. My rationale has always been something along the lines of this: my H is an extremely jealous person with an extremely low sense of self esteem. He gets jealous and yells if another male says hello to me. We work together, so he sees me speaking with other people alot. My thought was to omit mention of my dealing with other people and hence the lies/omissions ensue. Unfortunately all that I have succeeded in doing is erode away at the trust that it took my H an extremely long time to build up (due to reasons mentioned above). Now, he feels that he has to question every single thing I do and check up on me, which is making him miserable. He says this is no way to live a life and I try to tell him that his trust in me will slowly rebuild, but he isn't so sure, although he says he still loves me more than anything and wants to be with me and wants this to work. Sorry, I feel like I'm rambling on and on here. Thank you so much for offering the wisdom that you have so far.<BR>

Blueberry!!!<P>You have to do something **NOW**<P>I noticed in your last post you said "you told him his trust will slowly rebuild". It WONT. YOU have to rebuild it.<P>Everyone at some point in their lives suffer from insecurities, I myself have suffered from a low self-esteem in the past. When your partner does things that directly play on those insecurities the end result is jealousy, hurt, accusasions and everything else you described your H doing. If you truely love him then you would go out of your way to try and "heal" that insecurity in him (I wasn't so lucky... my partner threw it back in my face saying it was MY problem and MY solution).<P>Until YOU have proven to him beyond any doubt that his fears and insecurities are unfounded he will NOT regain trust... it will only simmer and his resentment will grow.<P>Now by rebuilding trust I don't mean having to prostrate yourself before him, instead you need to change it around. Include him in conversations with other men, show affection towards him infront of other men... that you would kiss him infront of someone else you were talking to tells him that you are not afraid for THEM to see you love him. If ever a situation arises where you see him getting angry... ASK him what he would need to be shown there is nothing to it... Hiding it was the worst thing you could have done... but wanting to fix it is 10 times BETTER than the mistake.<P>Its ALL up to you now, insecurity is something that once pushed too far by our partner will continue to grip us until our partner helps us get over it. I dealt with my insecurity only when the relationship broke up and in dealing with it I erected a barrier around myself that is now impenetrable... I care for nothing and so nothing can hurt me.

Wow, you sound so much like my H. I apologize, when I said that the trust would slowly be rebuilt, I meant through my attending therapy and doing things to demonstrate that I am trustworthy. I didn't mean to suggest that it was something that he had to rebuild, rather I am looking for ways that *I* can rebuild this in him. I'm sure you will agree with me that it will take time, no matter how hard both of us are working on it.<BR>At this point in time, his fears are compounded because we are forced to keep many aspects of our relationship a secret (due to work and cultural issues) - I have said he is my H, however in reality we are engaged to be married next year. We have been together 3 years and in many ways it feels as though we are already married. Anyways, because of this, any public affection that can take place occurs while we are vacationing away from the city we live in.<BR>So, in the face of all this, I must attempt to build the trust between us and find ways to prove my love and devotion to him. He was once like you with the barrier, allowing no one to enter. After 2 yrs of us being close friends, I was finally allowed "in", but managed to damage that. I'm amazed that he is still committed to working this out...and incredibly thankful.<BR>LostSoul - thank you for showing me this side to things - it is helping me immensely.