Is there any HOPE?<BR>My Wife left me on 4/1/00 I found your site on 4/8/00 I have also subscribed myself and my wife to your newsletter<BR>As she was packing her bags she told me she has been very unhappy for a very long time, I wanted her to stay and try to talk and work things out, I suggested counciling, But she was against it due to bad experiences with it during her childhood .Her younger brother had caused a lot of family trouble ,She said she had been living a lie, showing the appearance of happiness so as not to hurt anyone and she just can't do it anymore! She turned 40 last fall and has been having a hard time with that, She wants to have some fun for a change, You see we never had much money, she was always supportive and helpful,<BR>But I didn't realize my Ignorance and thoughtless habits until finding your site!<BR>I made copies for myself and my wife . She has read some of it and we went out to dinner last night to talk, She is Not ready to come home as she is afraid we will slip back into our RUT! I suggested we try dating and taking small steps and she agreed!! We have never had a real vacation or anything together, All I ever wanted was for US to be happy together, She wanted the same. Aprox three and a half years ago she got a third shift job, she has risen the ladder and I am very proud of her, I know she loves her job its very rewarding for her, she trains new people so they are ready for 1st and 2nd shift positions and her pupils do very very well. I AM Proud of her, its just the third shift thing . Leaving us very little time together that has bothered me, She feels she cannot work other shifts as she is very small and restraints are much to common place .<BR> I must tell you I have been learning a lot from your site, She admitted last night at dinner that her biggest issue was sex<BR> You need to know that in the beginning oh so long ago we had great sex! I lasted and lasted , But after children the first was almost 10 lbs and she is a very small women she tore and had to be cut etc. Our second child was premature and she blames me some for that ,saying we had sex when we shouldn't have. Any way sex was never the same, She was almost always in PAIN and most of the time I didn't even know it. After the two children I had a vasectomy so she wouldn't have to endure childbirth again.<BR>Then the other problems started first the endometriosis, after that it was fibromialga I think it was called, after that it was a total hysterectomy, I have always had a healthy sex drive, She still endures pain and believes it because I'm to large for her,<BR>we have lived this way for so long now I know no other way , But I must have a mental problem of wanting to get done quickly due to all the years of her wanting me to because of the pain!? Back in 86 I believe we got our first VCR and in an effort to spice up our sex I rented a couple of porno movies one almost had a plot it was called the pink lagoon, She said she didn't mind that one too much but thought the others were totally disgusting. Anyway I watched the whole thing and one of the girls was having a good time just masturbating < I asked her if she could get off that way and she told me she never did that. And it was the truth until around last fall sometime around her 40th birthday ,I haven't gotten all the details form her but I have included the e-mail she sent me after I pushed her to open up and tell me her reasons for her having to leave as I was tearing myself apart trying to put together everything so I could understand!<BR> Oh I did have a very brief marriage right out of high school, I know we were to immature but it effect me for some time afterward<BR>In my wife's letter she refers to her because she knew how tore up I was at that time about it and I was only comparing the pain as it was the only thing I had to gage it by telling her this was much much worse. I was not comparing them personally and she realizes that now. <BR> She also said last night at dinner that she shouldn't be so critical of counciling as she knows it helps the boys at her place of work, and she realizes that some are good at it and some are not, Her family likely had one of the poor ones.<BR>At the same time she was typing this letter I attached I had left her a note stating all I ever wanted was for her to be happy and that my sexual gratification didn't mean that I was sexually fulfilled as all I ever wished for was for her to have multiple orgasms during sex , and she knows I come from a family that never showed much affection, But I am a good student and have been changing ,our children have become closer than ever also, Any words of wisdom will be greatly appreciated, We are ALL in so much PAIN and I am so sorry it has come to this, But I do have hope we can overcome this, we have been through so much together as a team I don't want it to end like this!<BR> Please help<BR> Thanks for listening <BR> The New and enlightened Me<BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: <BR>To: <BR>Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 9:36 AM<BR>Subject: us and responsibility<P><BR>hi <BR> I really wish I had not talked to you yesterday I asked for time but I guess I don't get it do I?<BR>You know I thought a lot about our conversation while at work and the more I thought the angrier I got, let me explain why! First and foremost is you once again throwing ex W in my face! I have been paying the price for HER mistakes since day 1 She cheated on you so I guess that means I would too, she left you after how long? does it even remotely compare to 22 years???? I have been held to a standard you set due to HER behaviors, I have been watched and not trusted because of her, I have been made to feel quilty because of what she did!! I have had to pay for what she did our entire marriage. I am sick to death of doing that!!! I really think you need to see a counselor by yourself before we do anything like that together Maybe you still need to deal with your feelings about her before you can work on us! Talking about her to me now probably was the worst thing you could have done to me at this point! It has always been MY responsibility to make up for the way your marriage to her ended! EVERYTHING has always been left up to me to fix and take care of! I have been made to feel responsible for the house,the kids, the bills, and for sex!! It never mattered to you if I got off as long as you did as long as you were "fulfilled" it did not matter that I wasn't "done" because you finished it was OVER right do you have any idea how dead inside that made me after awhile? well what about me\\? don't I deserve to be "fulfilled"? I think the reason you don't like my job is because it has helped me to grow up and learn about human nature that is why I am so angry right now because I know enough to know that you are and have always played "victim" You say you understand that I am unhappy and want to fix things and build our root system, but you really are still saying Oh poor me! I am not responsible for your happiness you are! I can only be responsible for myself and I have taken the first step in that by leaving and the second by writing this! You really want to know how I feel and why I left!? I just can't stand having sex with you anymore to me it is a waste of my time because I know going into it that when it's over I will just be left laying there wishing I could have gotten an orgasm out of it too! You almost had me convinced that it was all my fault that I didn't "work" that something was wrong with me and I would have to live that way for the rest of my life! well that is wrong because if I can cum when I masturbate that if I can get horny and do myself and bring my own release obviously there is NOTHING wrong with me it is you or us together, SO maybe I'm thinking MAYBE there is someone out there someday that will want to take care of me!!!!!! Someone that will care more about me to make sure I have what everyone deserves I want some one that will take care of me for a change!!! Selfish ?? maybe it is! I would REALLY love it if you could start to be the man of the family and not another child for me to take care of you have a mother I can't be your mother and your lover it just doesn't work. I have decided to let YOU do the taxes it's a good place for YOU to start being responsible I left the bill folder between that and the w-2's you should be able to run the program and do it yourself I am just worn out trying to be everything to you! and doing everything for you what I need is for you to grow the hell up! I am very sure this is going to make you get angry and then cry but I can't help that you wanted to understand now you do I am going now I want you to really think about what I have said read it a few times!! I also want you to STOP putting the kids in the middle of this I did not leave "the family" I left you! If I thought that taking our daughter with me would have been the best thing for her I would have The reason my eyes have been red and swollen is because I miss her so much I cry all the time I want to see my daughter every day and I can't do that right now, she is very smart you know and she understands a lot more than you realize. I have also been crying because of what this is doing to my relationship with our son we have grown very close and I am very worried what this will do to that, I want you to stop crying to them! that is not what an adult does! You are making them responsible for YOU just like you did to me and you need to stop that before you push them away also, You think about all this and don't try to contact me to "talk" for awhile okay? all I asked for was time I really wish you could have done that one thing for me and thought about me first just once!!!!! <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Lost love (edited May 09, 2000).]

wow! do i feel for ya i wish i could say something to make it all better<BR> my relationship has not yet gotten to that stage luckily i found this site once i found out she wasnt happy. i can suggest that you keep posting and reading there are alot of people here who will have some thoughts that may help ya .<BR> dont give up if ya still love her<BR>

Well, I must say thanks for at least one reply, I have been buisy reading Dr.Harly's Books, I recieved His Needs Her Needs, Love Busters, Give&Take and the 5 steps to romantic love workbook The W and I have been talking and she is amazed I have found this information and that there others with problems like ours and that they can actualy be overcome!<BR> I believe she was in a state of total withdrawl, But at least now she thinks there may be hope<BR><P>------------------<BR>

Is your wife also reading Dr Harley's material? Although I think that you must take the initial steps toward reconciliation (which you are apparently doing and correctly so by implementing Dr Harley's concepts) it will, in the end, require devoted committment from both of you. I can speak with experience that Dr Harley's Policy of Joint Agreement (the POJA) if used correctly, will not only put your marriage back in order but will keep it that way. It is up to you to convince your wife that you truly understand where you went wrong, that you are, indeed, sorry for not seeing and correcting the mistakes sooner and that now you are taking the proper steps to correct your errors. With the POJA in place, fully operational in your marriage, there will be a safeguard against either of you inflicting further pain upon the other. I certainly can sense the desperation in your wife's writing and it may take some time for you to regain the trust necessary for her to return; but I also hear her desire to be reunited into a caring relationship. Given the proper desire on your part, you can provide that relationship for her. Keep the communication going and keep her well informed of what you are doing to provide a safe, caring, nurturing and fulfilling haven for her to return to. That haven should include a vehicle for her (and you)to use to be able to immediately express and voice any misgivings about any actions or activities the other finds threatening or intolerable.

Thanks for the reply! Yes my wife just finished His Needs Her Needs ,now she has Love Busters, She made the comment Dr.Harly sounds like a sexist,Thinks the women should all be housewifes!<BR>I don't know how to get through the walls she puts up, I think I'm making a dent with my newfound knowledge of my neglecting her needs, I have been trying to shower her with thoughtfulness and care, openess and honesty<BR> One day she shows hope the next she shows much doubt! She is trying to be honest with me now, as all along our comunication has been hampered by her trying to avoid hurting my feelings and trying to avoid conflicks!<BR> I am now on the most unbearably painful emotional Rollercoaster ride of my life<BR>She told me when she left that day she had no intentions of ever returning and a week after, she made love to who she calls a very good friend whom she worked with but now he is on a different shift.( I'm sure she has very strong and likely passionet feelings for) she states she is 99% sure it won't happen again, GREAT! she's being honest,<BR>I am retaining my resolve and it must be effecting her because she said if the table's were turned she would have told me to take a hike (Not her exact words)<BR>So now she feels she doesn't want to reconcile as much as I and thinks maybe I'd be better off with someone else!<BR>I wish this rollercoaster would at least SLOW Down WHEW!<BR>We talk on the phone and or see each other although breifly every day, Thats good right?<BR>She is having a very difficult time with her feelings and stated she will talk to her M.D.<BR>about it, Is she on the rollercoaster with me and or HIM!??<BR>

I didn't realize that your wife had been unfaithful. Although I am not that familiar with how one handles infidelity I do know that Dr Harley has created two plans (Plan A and Plan B) to help one with this particular problem. For a reconciliation to occur and be successful there will have to be a total committment by both you and your wife to provide protection for each other by never being the cause of the other's unhappiness and to care for each other by learning to fulfill each others emotional needs. A temporary separation right now is probably a good thing if you use it to avoid causing each other pain which would do nothing but cause you to continue to lose love units. You both should read Give and Take to learn how to negotiate without hurting each other. Have you considered using the counseling service offered here. They could probably help immensely in smoothing out the rollercoaster ride that you say you're on and could certainly help you (and your wife if she were willing) lay out a plan of action for restoring the love you have lost. Sorry I can't help much in the infidelity arena but I applaud your attempt at a reconciliation especially in light of the fact that your children deserve two loving and caring parents...as do you both. God be with you.

Sexist???? We are not all housewives. I am a lawyer, (YUCK) but with two lousy marriages and 25 years of experience at trying I can offer something.<P>Painful sex. My first marriage. Never an orgasm with him. Before I married him, yes. Afterwards, yes. With present H, often. Problem? H #1 was way too large for me. <P>Last month I was commiserating with a male friend and mentioned the tragic consequenses of sexual incompatibility and he said, "What, didn't a doughnut work?" I had never heard of such a thing. Obvious, obvious solution. Harley never mentions size incompatibility as a factor. The only thing I could think of was reduction surgery. Never would I ask that of anyone!!<P>Go doughnut shopping.<P>(I'm small, but gave birth to five kids without drugs, episiotomy, tearing or anything, and one well over 9 lbs. Size is irrelevant to that. Length is the critical dimension!)<P><P>------------------<BR>A true friend is one who not only is willing to love us the way we are, but is able to leave us better than he found us.

Thanks as I really have no one to confide in about all this, the details anyway.<BR>yesterday she told me I am smothering her,<BR>Yes she appreciates the cards,flowers, and my effort, all her friends are telling her how romantic and what a good man I am!<BR>But she is feeling that I am constantly checking up on her, and that she is feeling as she is just another one my "GUNHO prodjects" ,yes I can get kind of obsessed in acomplishing something when I set my mind to it, But its because I Love her and I have seen the error of my ways, and now want to make up for them, when I called her at work I had no thoughts of "checking up on her"<BR>I was just trying to change my habbits and let her know that I do care, and I DO Love Her! So now she talking like the plan B senarios,<BR> I need some down time,absense makes the heart grow fonder kind of stuff!<BR> But I know this is very risky, especially with her feeling as this has gone on so long and how can we make such drastic changes as Dr. Harley suggests with his concepts and policys, I am making her feel like she is my Dr. Harley project! Well I suppose in a way she is correct. But I AM changing and learning a lot! But I guess I'm going too fast for her. Of course my goal is for her to regain those lost feelings of love for me and let me take care of her needs for a change and to live together happily ever after, isn't that what everyone wants?<P><BR>------------------<BR>Let us not look back in anger or forward in fear,but around in awareness.<P> Experience is not what happens to a man. It is what a man does with what happens to him.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Lost love (edited May 09, 2000).]

My I humbly suggest that you slow down just a wee bit? Sometimes it is best to just shut up and pray. Overt displays don't always look sincere. You said "going to fast for her" and I read it literally at first. <P>I still think it was a fabulous idea to "fast for her" in the biblical sense. Do a very prayerful fast for her mind and heart to be open to you, for clarity of thought and becoming receptive to your best intentioned efforts. Sometimes prayers are only answered if we make the additional sacrifice and effort of a "fast."<P>Good luck in everything!<P>Love, Karenna<P>------------------<BR>A true friend is one who not only is willing to love us the way we are, but is able to leave us better than he found us.

Thanks Karenna, I am slowing down, I have only talked to her once in the last two days,<BR>She called me! It has been making me feel good, the things i've been doing, like having the counter people (two different ones on different nights)at the convenience store hand her flowers and a card and tell her I love her,when she stops on her way in to work. the last time there was a lady behind me, and she wanted to take me home with her to talk to her husband about doing romantic things, Wow that made me feel good. Also a coworker was talking to me about his thinking of leaving his wife because of problems with his step daughters real father and constant conflics over it and such, so I asked if his wife knew he was talking of leaving, the answer was no, so I suggested he throw out the olive branch, bring her home a dozen roses ask her out to dinner and calmly let her know just how he felt, well he did exactly<BR>that. It made me feel great the next day when his wife greeted him with arms out stretched and a big kiss to pick him up and take him out for lunch. (No he didn't tell her he had some help in this) But it did make me feel bad about my own situation!<P><BR>God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.<BR>The courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference<P>------------------<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Lost love (edited May 09, 2000).]