My wife and I have had conflict on the subject of another baby. I've wanted another for over a year now, and her simple reply is "No", we've tried talking about it, not talking about it, Yelling, and whatever else about it. We're at a standstill. I'm not happy, and I'm sure that she isn't either at this point. What do you suggest? I know the standard "seek counseling" reply is inevitable, but I don't see compromise here only one of us caving.

Hi spousesaysno<P>have you asked your wife why she doens't want to have another baby? i don't know maybe you did this already but a careful approach might help to find out what's behind her no. <BR>I hope you guys work thinks out.<BR> <BR>Sammy

Hello Spousesaysno,<BR>Dealing with pregnant women all day gives me a little insight into your problem. That and having kids of my own. I'm not sure how many kids you have, or what their ages are, but maybe if you and your wife could sit down and actually write out your individual reasons for and against having another child at this time, you could both understand each others motivation. As a woman, I can tell you that the physical, emotional and lifestyle changes that are part of childbearing can be overwhelming. This has nothing to do with love of spouse or offspring. It's almost as if you give up the "me" part of youself for a while, and it takes some time to get back to feeling like a woman in your own right. That can be real hard to give up. Really listen to her reasons without arguing about them. Give her a safe environment to voice her concerns and try to understand her point of view. Pressuring a woman to have a child can be as damaging as forcing her to give one up.

Her plates too full. She won't think about it, concider it or talk about it unless she knows I'm major pee'd. Then we don't get anywhere. You know I know I'm being very selfish, women have to carry 99.9% of the burden with a baby. She is a fantastic mother! She loves our kids to pieces. If #2 and #3 weren't accidents we wouldn't have them though. #1 was a tough one and the latter were much easier. She's kinda funny because she says look if this is going to save our marriage because of the tension, I'll do it. It won't kill me, but here's why I'm not going to do it. No progress after almost a year of trying to convince to concieve. I've started a web site called <A HREF="http://spousesaysno.com" TARGET=_blank>http://spousesaysno.com</A> I've searched the internet and there's hardly anyplace to go where you see this subject. I feel all alone. Especially being a guy. I feel like a real freak. <P>

"Her plate's too full"- I assume those are her words...hey, she's being very honest. She needs some space, and I'm afraid if you keep the pressure on her you'll get another baby, but may end up losing a wife. I'd back off until she's ready.<BR>T

spousesayno:<P>I would suggest that you try counseling, especially with one of the Harleys (Steve or Jenn) through the phone counseling available at MarriageBuilder's (appts are 888-639-1639). They can probably help your marriage more quickly than you'll be able to do on your own.<P>Let's get the facts straight. You have THREE children. And you want a fourth. What are the facts concerning the situation?<P>Do you work? Does your wife?<P>Who does the majority of child care?<P>Does your wife love you? Is she "romantically" in love with you?<P>It's hard to tell from your posts, but I imagine that the situation is this:<P>You believe that you're a good dad. And you're probably OK---better than your father, for example. But I'm guessing that your wife does the majority of care for these three kids. She does doctor's appointments, shopping, school issues, etc. And she's probably a stay-at-home mom.<P>You also come across as someone who uses "Lovebusters" often in your marriage. Disrespectful judgements, selfish demands, angry outbursts. These behaviors have probably caused your wife to "cave in" to some of your demands over the years. At the same time, they drain her love for you. I'm guessing that your wife right now is not very happy in the marriage. It's probably getting to the point where she's wondering what'll happen if she has yet another child, and ends up divorcing you.<P>If any of this "free association" stuff is anywhere near on-target, I'd strongly urge you to do the counseling with the Harley's. If you won't, I'd suggest that you do the following:<P>1. Read <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6030_love.html" TARGET=_blank>Lovebusters</A>. Eliminate all these behaviors from your daily marital life. Do it consistantly---it's critical to establish a consistant track record of new behaviors with your spouse. Your wife can't be in love with you if you're constantly using these lovebusters on her.<P>2. Read <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6030_love.html" TARGET=_blank>Give and Take</A>. Give and Take will demonstrate how to negotiate effectively with your spouse, and how to adhere to the Policy of Joint Agreement. The POJA states "never do ANYTHING without a mutually enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse". The reason for that is that you can build up resentment and bitterness in a marriage if one person is always sacrificing for the other's "happiness". This often comes about in a way in which the person who is "getting" is completely unaware that their partner is sacrificing---until they ask for a divorce, or have an affair. It's clear that you are in the "do nothing" state of things---your wife is nowhere near enthusiastic about another baby.<P>Your best chance for another baby is to cause your wife to fall romantically in love with you. Eliminating lovebusters is the first step. Following the POJA is a key in that. And then you need to meet her important emotional needs---and Harley's <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6020_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>His Needs/Her Needs</A> can help you do this. If you can demonstrate by YOUR marital behavior that you have your wife's best interests as your top priority, she will fall in love with you. And once you've achieved that, you'll be on much better footing for trying to negotiate a fourth child. <P>And in using the POJA, you'll be able to brainstorm successfully, and attempt to address your wife's issues concerning her being overwhelmed. In a loving, supportive enviroment.<P>Right now, what I *see* from what you've posted is a selfish husband who is more interested in just getting his way, even to the point of putting up a web site to gather "support". I'm telling you---if I'm your wife, that's not going to put me "in the mood".

Just a little addendum:<P>I did check out your website, and go through some of your posts.<P>I would strongly urge you to completely stay away from that site---it won't do you or your marriage a bit of good. You're going to be getting people who are in the same boat as you---and they're all going to feed your feelings of resentment and anger over the situation. It won't help you PRODUCTIVELY deal with your situation. It also won't help you solve your problem.<P>The other thing I spotted is that you and your wife have always agreed on everything. That sounds exactly like something I said---before I discovered my wife was having an affair. I had very little clues that she was so "out of love" with me. Trust me---you don't want to deal with that pain---even if (as in my case) it results in a baby. I'm guessing that your wife isn't honest about how SHE feels, at least in a way that you're hearing.<P>Please consider counseling with the Harley's. Steve counseled me through my wife's affair, and he was a critical factor in helping me save my marriage. I don't think your situation is nearly as bad as mine was, but I see a lot of similarities in your "on-line" behavior, and I'd like to save you the REAL pain of rebuilding a marriage hit by an affair.<P>

Do you work? Does your wife?<P>Who does the majority of child care?<P>Does your wife love you? Is she "romantically" in love with you?<P>It's hard to tell from your posts, but I imagine that the situation is this:<P>You believe that you're a good dad. And you're probably OK---better than your father, for example. But I'm guessing that your wife does the majority of care for these three kids. She does doctor's appointments, shopping, school issues, etc. And she's probably a stay-at-home mom.<P>You also come across as someone who uses "Lovebusters" often in your marriage. Disrespectful judgements, selfish demands, angry outbursts. These behaviors have probably caused your wife to "cave in" to some of your demands over the years. At the same time, they drain her love for you. I'm guessing that your wife right now is not very happy in the marriage. It's probably getting to the point where she's wondering what'll happen if she has yet another child, and ends up divorcing you.<P>If any of this "free association" stuff is anywhere near on-target,<P>Yes I work, yes she works out of the house, she does deal with the kids more than I do. I've never claimed anything differently. I'm sure she loves me, yes we're romantically in love, we only have this one issue. As far as your "LOVEBUSTER" idea, NO! I don't make selfish demands, I don't make any! Look if anyone has caved in this relationship over the past 17 years it's been me. I've been the "yes dear" husband, if she's ever wanted I've made sure she's gotton. I do really appreciate the fact that you are trying to help my situation, I genuinely do, however your free association is not on base. Why is it that when a woman wants a baby, and he doesn't, her husband is being selfish, and now when he wants a baby, he's being selfish, sounds really consistant doesn't it.

correction on her working out of the house, I meant she works at home. She's self employed.

Thanks for clarifying some of this.<P>The reason you sound selfish is because you have three children, and you want a fourth. And your wife stays home with the kids.<P>She's told you that she feels her "plate is too full". You're dismissing her concerns, instead of trying to constructively address them. You are EXACTLY making selfish demands---in fact, you called yourself selfish.<P>What have you done to constructively address her "plate is too full" issue? Have you suggested a housekeeper? How about a nanny? How about you taking more responsibility at home?<P>And if this is the "only issue"---why is it such a big deal? It shouldn't be, if you're madly in love with your wife. But the fact that you've described yourself as the one who's "caved in" over the last 17 years leads me to think this isn't the only bump in the marriage.

ok, I do see your point. I am selfish especially on this point, I know that I said that I had caved, well to be honest with you I haven't really felt that I was caving. I might not have been head-over-heels enthused with an idea, but I've always gone ahead and embrased whatever she wanted. I've always wanted to make her happy. If she's happy, then I am. I have addressed the issue with helping her, I'm more than willing to help her with whatever she wants help with. I've offered the housekeeper etc. There's an issue here that I think is deeper than "the plate is full", she has girlfriends that are all at least 6, 7 years older than her that have kids at least that much older than our youngest telling her she's nuts to have a baby. She's come up with tons of excuses but I really believe that most of the concern comes from what her friends might think of her if she were to do this. I'm really not trying to make myself look like "The Perfect Husband being abused here", I know I'm a jerk for wanting this from her, I'm just pointing out that I'm not this stereotypical guy who wants something, demands it and then goes on to the next demand. It's just not that way.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She's come up with tons of excuses but I really believe that most of the concern comes from what her friends might think of her if she were to do this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now we're starting to move this along. I wouldn't pass judgement on the "tons of excuses" if I were you, but it is interesting that you think her friends are negatively influencing her.<P>Now, from your wife's friends point of view---can you imagine why they might be telling her this. If they've got a house full of teenagers---that's not easy. How can you compete with that (pretty flawless) logic?<P>By helping demonstrate to your wife that she's the most important thing in your life. <P>A couple more questions: Have you read Harley's <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>Four Rules for a Successful Marriage</A>? It's about Protection (no lovebusting), Care (emotional needs being met), Honesty, and Time. Harley's observations are that loving marriages are best supported by at least 15 hrs/week of quality couple time---without kids, friends, TV. This time together gives you the opportunity to build the love you need to have in the marriage. One avenue you might want to explore is whether you and your wife are spending that kind of quality time together. If you're not, then you need to start hiring babysitters and going out together more.<P>Again, this is all in an effort to build your wife's love for you. It's the only way you'll be able to negotiate this issue---without a deep love for you, I'm guessing that she's not ever going to consider it (and even if she is deeply in love with you, she may not).<P>On another note: you've referred to yourself as selfish and a jerk for wanting a fourth kid. Why do you want another? Are you stopping at 4, or do you want 6 or 8? Did you tell your wife after the 3rd that you were "finished"?<P>I'm just interested in what YOUR driving factor is. I personally would love a fourth child (my third is the product of my wife's affair). I don't want a fourth because of the affair or my youngest son (who I adore), but because I enjoy children. It's my opinion, however, that my wife would be more stressed than she currently is with another---and I don't feel that she'd handle it well. And although she has expressed desire for a fourth child, I've honestly, respectfully stated my opinion, and she's agreed with me that it's probably not a good idea.<P>So---why can't you take that "no" from your wife in a more reasonable way? This is much different than a case in which one spouse wants A child, and the other one doesn't.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So---why can't you take that "no" from your wife in a more reasonable way? This is much different than a case in which one spouse wants A child, and the other one doesn't.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>answer- I've tried analyzing that question over and over in my mind for months. I just feel an overwhelming desire for another child. I don't like being totally dismissed of my feelings about it, and I've just felt like she doesn't care how I feel about it. My opinion, need doesn't count. I haven't even had a "sorry I can't give you what you want." Now on the other hand, she wanted to have a distant relative, (teenager) move here from a forien country to go to school here for a year and live with us. Guess what he's comming in July. I couldn't turn her down, that's what she wants. Don't get me wrong I don't mind him comming but once again I want what she wants. Her plate is too full but she can take on another teenager for a year. I'm just confused about everything. I feel like I'm the by-stander here. When does she start caring about what I really want? Why is it that I have to give up, forget, shut-up, don't think about what I want, and roll-over say yes dear and like it?<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When does she start caring about what I really want? Why is it that I have to give up, forget, shut-up, don't think about what I want, and roll-over say yes dear and like it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>When?? When she's IN LOVE with you, and when the two of you learn to follow the 4 Rules for a Successful Marriage.<P>Right now you're not even close. You're not being completely honest with her (she probably doesn't know how you feel about this teenager coming to visit), you're not using the POJA to negotiate these issues (you're not at a "win-win" situation here), and you're certainly building up resentment by being in this "giver" mode, while you're taker isn't being satisfied.<P>And I'm guessing that if I was discussing this with your wife, she'd claim that she's always giving to you, and her taker isn't satisfied.<P>The two of you need to really sit down and learn these skills to make your marriage grow. That's basically the only answer to resolving this conflict over the baby (or kids visiting or buying a new car or anything else in your marriage). I would, once again, STRONGLY URGE you to call MarriageBuilder's and set up an appointment for yourself to talk with either Steve or Jenn Harley. I'd encourage you to do this on your own at first (check with your wife to see if she's interested in it, but if she's not, do it anyway). Even if you're the only one participating in the marriage counseling, it will definitely benefit your marriage. And Steve or Jenn will ask your wife to provide "input" on your progress, so she'll get involved in the counseling even if she's reluctant.<P>If you're both really pretty much "in love" with each other, and are both willing to learn the MarriageBuilder skill set, you'll be able to build your marriage to something terrific in short order (3 months or so). If you have more conflict (my guess), it may take 6 months. And if your wife completely refuses to participate, you can figure on a longer period.<P>But you can be successful with this program. I was, and my wife continued to have an affair for 9 months after I discovered. It wasn't easy, but this stuff really does work, and it will benefit you regardless. Again, I really think you'll do best with getting some good professional help.<P>

[QUOTE]Right now you're not even close. You're not being completely honest with her (she probably doesn't know how you feel about this teenager coming to visit), you're not using the POJA to negotiate these issues (you're not at a "win-win" situation here), and you're certainly building up resentment by being in this "giver" mode, while you're taker isn't being satisfied.<P>And I'm guessing that if I was discussing this with your wife, she'd claim that she's always giving to you, and her taker isn't satisfied.<BR>[QUOTE]<BR>I know you are trying to be helpful here but really I don't think you're on base at all. Except that at this point I do feel like I'm in the GIVER mode. She does know how I have felt about the tennager comming. I told her that I really don't mind him comming here, but it feels like a slap in the face when she says her plate is full and she wants to take on another kid for a year and we can't have our own. She would be the 1st to admit that I DON'T SAY NO! if you were to ask her. I guess she wasn't in love with me on #1, #2, or #3. I begged for the 1st one. She knew that eventually we would have one, might as well be now. 2 and 3 were opps.<BR>She loves our kids! I know she wouldn't have traded another situation for them. She loves me....even romatically, as you state. We haven't had any other issues that we've had to deal with. I am going to get that book thisafternoon. The POJA book that you refer to, maybe there's something there that I'm just not seeing. When she has friends talking about other people who just had babies, and all of them talking about how CRAZY these people are, I don't think I stand a chance, no matter how perfect, loving, giving a husband I am.

spousesayno:<P>If you really feel that her friends are a bad influence, there are ways to POJA her time with them to a minimum. For example, you could (together) decide to move to a different state. Or you could spend more together time with her---at the expense of her friends. <P>Why don't you start counseling?<P><BR>

Well, was I floored today.... My wife actually said.. we need to talk babies! I thought babies? Well she didn't tell me about this until today but this week she thought that she might be pregnant. She was late which normally doesn't happen and took a test and found that she wasn't. She told me that she's been thinking about it and she's decided that she would like another but about 85% of her misgivings are with pregnancy and birth. She said she wouldn't mind adopting. Well I had mentioned that before and she just flat out said well maybe but NO! I don't know what to think about this twist, I haven't mentioned anything lately and have pretended that I haven't been thinking about it. I don't know, I think I'm not going to push the issue and just see how sincere she is about this idea.