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My wife and I have been married for 18 years and we have 2 great kids - 15 and 12. Over the past couple of years or sex life has been decreasing. Over the past few months that evolved to no physical touching at all (hugging, kissing etc.). I absolutely love my wife. We have an open and honest relationship and have worked on any problems or disagreements -- and we have had the usual "normal family problems" over the past 18 years. We have talked recently and she no longer has the "fire". She says she loves me but I think she is no longer "in-love" with me. She has commented on how things have been much better over the past year or so in regards to helping around the house etc. Also she has told me that I have not done anything "wrong". She has a very satisfying job and enjoys her work. We just started counseling and have one session done...the usual historical stuff. No surprises and we both were fairly comfortable with the topics and information discussed. The counselor has asked to see us separately next week -- which was a little surprising to both of us. We have talked about how we felt counseling would or could help. There is a strong impression that it won't fix anything...which is true in a sense...my wife and I have to fix it. But I am worried that it is just going to reinforce the "reality" that she no longer is in love with may and will eventually see separation as the only alternative. She will come to accept the drastic affect a separation will have on The house, neighboorhood, lifestyle and most importantly, the kids. I've read alot of "stuff" on the internet and quite frankly, the things I read did not offer me much hope that we will not end up in a divorce. Appreciate any reponse that can offer suggestions or what the likelyhood of saving my marriage.

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I'm afraid I won't be much help, but you haven't gotten any replies yet, and I went through sort of the same thing after 7 years of marriage. We are now divorced, though I didn't want to. My ex said similar things, that I was a wonderful husband and father, it's just her, etc. Sometimes though, she made it CLEAR what I had done wrong. I also filled out the emotional needs questioniere here, and discovered a lot of ugly things about myself.<P>I'm not sure why what happened with your W happens, but I think at the basis is that it's easy to get tired of a relationship, even one as long and fulfilling as yours, and after a long while, that dissatisfaction builds up. I think it's sometimes impossible to counteract once that feeling is on the surface, unless your W is patient and mature enough to do anything she can with you to save your marriage.<P>I'm thinking a good way to avoid this in the first place is the "family meeting" concept described in the "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff for Families" book, as well as several other books and I think many counselors suggest it. A regular time for everyone in the family to talk about anything bothering them, and anything they appreciate. Anything said at the meeting has to be greeted with respect, if not agreement. I'm going to try this in my next family. In fact, I've already started it with my 4yo, though she's too young to truly participate. I want to get her used to the feeling that she can say anything she wants. Actually, she now asks for family meetings, even though she'll then say, "No, nothing's bothering me!"<P>I think you sometimes need drastic change in your life too. A new career, a huge project to work on together outside of work that teaches you, like maybe volunteering for a month at something you know nothing about. A new career makes you in many ways a different person that your spouse will (hopefully!) want to get to know.<P>I failed, so what I say is just guesses. I truly hope things work better for you.

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HI, Alone,<BR>First, I just want to say I am so sorry for the emotional pain I know you are feeling right now. I am going through the very same thing with my H, and although he says that he doesn't hate or dislike me and will even admit that he cares for me, the sad truth is that he is not in love with me at this time. Also, I truly believe he has an EA going on with a female acquaintance of his but he staunchly denies this. Had I no proof or concrete reasons to believe this, I might believe him but proof is proof, after all.<P>Anyway, we have been together for 17 years, 13 of them married. We, too, went through all kinds of ups and downs like any marriage but once I got sick, our marriage took a severe nose dive. Things only spiraled downward from there, and honestly, right now I do not know for sure if our marriage is going to survive or not. BUT..I can tell you this: TALK, talk and talk some more. We've passed the fighting stage, and neither of us is in the withdrawl stage, but we are really and honestly talking to each other about what bothers or has bothered us. We are making some surprising discoveries, too, along the way. <P>Fighting is not going to help, neither is the silent treatment, pouting, or sniping. Once we went through all of those stages and behaviors, we suddenly came to our senses and started to tell each other things that were really on our minds. It was difficult at first, but with each talk now, it's getting easier to do. For instance, he had no idea (believe it or not) that most of my recent behavior was motivated by pure jealousy. I was so torn up inside just imagining him with another woman that it colored my moods and just about everything I said or did. Once I was able to admit that to him and to communicate that to him in plain language, it was as if a cloud lifted. He understood my feelings! This is something that hasn't happened between us in a dog's age. Our conversations were more of a "I'm just waiting until you're done talking so that I can talk" variety. Not now, though. NOW, we are not only hearing the words, but truly listening to each other.]<P>Trust me, Alone. The reasons and/or clues are all there. The only things you can do at this point are just two things: either hang in there and honestly communicate with each other, or split up. What else is there to do? All you can do is your best--and my H and I have chosen to give it one last try. A year ago I would not have believed any of this was going to happen to us, but it did. I thought our marriage was rock-solid and "perfect." I've come to realize that NOTHING is perfect, not even the best marriage, and that's a huge realization. <P>So, keep those family talks going and most importantly, talk one on one with your W and never stop sharing your feelings with her, too. God bless you and good luck...<BR>Hugs,<BR>Winny

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Thanks,<BR>I was beginning to think I either posted in the wrong area or no one was going to reply. We have been to 2 sessions. The initial and each of us separately. I haven't seen much change. Wife says she would talk between sessions but has not initiated any. When I bring it up, she didn't want to talk about it. I am reluctant to "press the issue" and she will not discuss when kids are in the house. I don't want to make her feel she is under any pressure. <BR>So far, I feel the environment is the same. She shows no interest in any physical contact with me. I am finding very hard to get through this day-by-day. I find my self loooking at any gesture, or something she says to give me some hint as to what direction all this is going. The hardest part is that when I look at her eyes I do not see "me" in them. I am trying to hold on but I don't know how much longer I can go w/o some sort of "sign". We are going to a graduation party for one of her cousins -- which includes most of her family. This will be very hard for me to put on a "false front" that everything is OK. However, we are suppoosed to RSVP to a wedding by 7/1 for a wedding of a family acquaitance's son in August. I can't commit to going if the situation stays as it is. I am wrong for drawing a line in the sand??? <BR>Thanks....

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HI, Alone...<BR>No, I don't necessarily think you are wrong for wanting to know where you stand with your wife, however, one thing I've learned over this past year is that a reluctant partner will not open up until they are ready to. I've tried barnstorming, crying, even went as far as throwing out some really harsh remarks--and nothing worked at all. He just clammed up and I got that same "no look" look from him that you talked about coming from your wife. I know how devastating that is!! AT one point, I even considered suicide, I was so down! I quickly talked myself out of that idea, but it was scary nonetheless that it even occured to me.<P>You may need far more than just two counseling sessions--and in some cases it can be a real help. But with others, perhaps not. It all depends on what the problem is. Please forgive me in advance for even suggesting this, but have you considered the idea that someone else may have caught her attention? The reason I am asking is because I've learned that evasive behavior means the covering up of some deep secret, and what could be more devastating all around than an affair? In my case, I firmly believe that my H had an affair with a woman that we both know, and as much as he still denies it, he can't deny the love letter from her to him that I found, nor the other little gifts and things that he carelessly "hid". <P>Seven months ago is when I first found the letter and confronted him with it. My life quickly deteriorated into one of terrible fights, cruel things said and oh, too much to go into here. I was utterly and completely broken in spirit, and it has taken me all this time to find myself again. I never would have believed he'd do such a thing, but it happened. It only proved that despite my feeling that he was an above-average person, he is still only quite human.<P>Enough about me for now, I just wanted to present my question to you with some background first. If your wife is steadfastly reluctant to discuss the state of your marriage with you, that could be a very red flag. I'd start looking for clues, if for any other reason than to dispel the suspicion you may be feeling. It is a known fact that an alarming number of WS's (wandering spouses) will deny an affair and never, ever admit to it. Some do break down over time and eventually admit it, but from what I've read on this site, they are in the minority by far. <P>Keep your wits about you, start looking for clues and if you find something you don't understand, ASK her about it. See what reaction you get and go from there. Let's face it--phone bills are easy to decipher, and if you find she is hiding too many things from you (bills, charge account statements, even bank accounts!...), then you may have a WS on your hands. <P>Also, please do read everything you can that Dr. Harley wrote and made available on this site. It couldn't hurt, and just might help to save your marriage.<P>Good luck to you and please keep us posted. I truly do care, and am praying for ALL of us in this miserable boat!<P>Hugs,<BR>Winny

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Thanks again. It really helps to share thoughts with people who have had (or living) this unfortunate experience. I do not believe she is having an affair. She really does not have the time. She works in the education field and does have many after school meetings. But I and the therapist have both asked on separate occasions the "is there anyone else question". She steadfastly says no -- would never do that to me. Also, she is a great mother and I do not believe she would never risk doing that kind of thing. Plus, I do get all the bills and there is nothing suspicious. Also, she has asked me what week she should put in this summer for vacation...<BR>Anyways, the "empty look" is a very devastating thing to endure. We have been with each other for about half of our lives now. If we were just "going out" I have to believe she would have broken up with me. The fact that we have so much of our lives invested with each other is causing her anxiety too. My thought is she is just as nervous at the thought of "being single" and all the drastic changes it will bring about. But, no matter what I do, I can not make her "be in love" with me. It has to come from her. I am willing to wait as long as I can, but I need some signs of progress or some indication that she still feels this way. I do not want to rush or pressure the situation, but I do deserve something.<BR>Regards....

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Dear Alone,<BR>I am very glad to hear that you sincerely feel there is no other person in your W's life. One thing that came to my mind as I read your post is that so many couples seem to fall into this trap. Together for so long, the spark seems dead and sometimes, it truly does die. Can it be gotten back again? I believe that it can, but it takes trying from both partners.<P>I also believe that "mid life crisis" is a very real thing and not just a trendy term. Perhaps she is having some hormonal imbalances and may not even realize it. <P>It sounds like you need to rekindle that spark, all right. Do you know what's odd? Before our own personal crisis, I was feeling almost the same way towards my H as your W is towards you. I mean, I truly did (and still do) love him, but the thought of being intimate with him just hit me wrong somehow. Why? Well, for starters, I got tired of being put second, third or even farther down on the waiting list for his time and attention. He never looked at me anymore--I mean really LOOKED at me, right in the eyes and with tenderness and/or excitement in his own. Sex seemed to be more about him reaching his climax than anything else. If I did, fine, If I didn't, who cared? Not him.<P>I don't know when the last time is that he said, "I love you" to me. When was the last time he took me in his arms and really hugged me?? I have no idea. Instead of taking care of my emotional needs, he only took care of his own and I took care of his, too. The only thing is that I became a non-entity in our marriage, except for chief cook and bottlewasher, laundress, etc. etc.<P>Now...I know what you must be thinking! "she must be fat, out of shape and a real drudge." Nope. Far from it! For my age, I am in marvelous shape, illness and all. I weigh a trim 110 pounds, am average height and have a really decent figure. In fact, I made sure I didn't age and let myself go like so many women do. Just the opposite, in fact. Heads still turn when I walk down the street or into the pool at the Y. So, what's wrong??? Well, what's wrong is that my H got very complacent and took me for granted. And, I eventually became very angry. That anger spoiled any sexual feelings for me that I might have had, although "like a good wife" I still catered to him and tried my best to please him. It was awful for me--empty, cold and nothing what love is supposed to feel like.<P>If any of the things I've said here sound familiar to you in any way, Alone, then you need to do some homework! Women NEED to be treated as special, as desirable, as 'the only woman in the world for me.' When friends, hobbies, work or what-all come before her constanly, the spark eventually goes out. IF she loves you, and I mean truly loves you, she will appreciate your attending to her emotional needs. It might make that spark reignite, too.<P>Just making suggestions here for you, because I know all too well from both sides of the story what it feels like. Why did my H stray? Ultimately, it was his own doing. Had he treated me like I meant something more to him than just a housekeeper, I would have thrown him down on the floor and...er....never mind. You get the picture! But, he never caught on and I tried to TELL him this, but he wouldn't listen. Too macho. He never did anything wrong. Right. <sigh!><P>Let me know what you think about all this, ok? Hang in there...it may not be too late for you after all!<BR>Hugs,<BR>Winny

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Well, I can certainly say I want to hug and kiss and all that. She has been #1 with me for a long time. The issue is that she does not seem to desire physical contact of any type. She loves it from the kids etc but says that is different. I think about this situation constantly. I wonder if she thinks about it at all during the day? The frustrating thing is that I can't do much to help this without input from her. If the spark has "died" in her then can it be re-lit? If not, no matter what I do say or try, will bring her back to me. Even though we are very civil and friendly around the house, I believe I deserve to know what deep feeling she may still have about me. I am wondering if the only thing that holds her with me is the kids, house and the "fear" of what changes will come to our entire lifestyle if it comes down to a separation. But, I can not endure this pain much longer and I am not just going to roll-over and give away everything that I feel is important to me. I am trying to formulate a list of questions to ask so I can know more and at least let her know that I still want our relationship very badly. As for the hormonal thing -- I have thought of that but I sincerely doubt she would ever consent to that kind of treatment. She has a strong belief in Homeopathic medicine.

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Dear Alone,<BR>I re-read Trying2beme's post and he makes a lot of good sense. Perhaps your W is just tired of your relationship; perhaps it just feels stale to her. You know, women wrestle with a lot of issues that somehow seem to espcape men. For one, the getting older issue: for men, it's more of a what have I done with my life and is this all there is kind of thing. For women, it's more of a did I really make the best choices for my life and how soon before I'm old, wrinkly, saggy and unattractive thing. She may have inner feelings that have nothing to do with you personally (part of getting older) and she doesn't know how to deal with them. You mention you have teenagers. She may be thinking 'what will I do with my life once the kids are grown and gone?' (the empty nest syndrome). Also, you didn't mention it yet, but are yours and her parents still living, and if so, are they in good or poor health? Now, that can be an issue at some not-too-distant future point that can hit a woman like a ton of bricks. Are there other siblings to help out--or will your W be the mainly responsible one? <P>You really do need to sit down and talk with her, as I'm sure you already know. From what I gather, she is reluctant to discuss the physical side of your marriage, but it seems like she would discuss anything else. Alone, honestly, when a woman turns so completely "off", there is a reason. But, to not even want to discuss it--that is truly some kind of red flag. Discussing things means being open and honest, and if there is something else going on, she would not want you to know about it. As much as this seems inconceivable to you, shutting your eyes to the possibility will get you nowhere fast. <P>Just make your list of questions, sit her down when no kids are present and get her talking to you. Ask her if she is angry about something you did or are doing, and ask her if she is worried about the future. Ask her if there is anyone else and if she wants to know why you asked that, tell her that that is one reason spouses deny sex with their partners, and you just want to know. <P>I truly do wish you the best of luck, Alone. I know the pain you are going through but in my case, at least part of the truth came out and it's a starting point for rebuilding our marriage. He did admit to a "close friendship" with this woman and I told him that he is playing with fire and might get badly burned.<P>Keep us updated, ok? Hugs and best wishes to you...<BR>Winny

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Well, we went out to dinner yesterday and we talked more after we got home. I was a mess at home...she says that there is not anyone who probably loves her more than I do. She thinks that this has been building for a while...which made me feel even worse that there was some sort of big flashing light I somehow missed. I asked her what attracted her to me in the beginning etc. The stunning statement is that she said she would be gone if it were not for the kids. I am still trying to digest the entire meaning behind that statement. She still wants to continue to do the counseling, which was my idea in the beginning. This leaves me with a feeling there still may be some tiny hope for us yet. She said nothing has changed on how she feels about me. So I told here what I was looking for -- talks between the two of us in between sessions. I asked for her to try to reach out and let us enjoy some simple physical stuff like hugs and kiesses etc. She is worried that she will be sending the "wrong signal" and get my hopes up when nothing has actually changed. I told her that I would try very hard not to read more into these attempts... She does realize that if we separate, it will bring a drastic change to our entire lifestyle. She says the kids are the most and only important thing. To me, sometimes I wonder if she already has made up her mind on how this is going to turn out. Do I need to look into representation to make sure I do not lose out? I believe we both would try to be as cordial as possible, but I know both of us can't get our way. I just want to be prepared so I know I can get the best for me and my kids too.<BR>Regards....

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HI, Alone,<P>My heart truly aches for you and again, I am so sorry for the deep pain you are in right now. I got a very similar speech re: things building up for a long time and I didn't even realize it. In fact, if you read a lot of posts on this site, you will see the same thing expressed over and over again. There is an excellent thread called "Out Of The Blue" (do a search..you'll find it) where dozens of folks feel just like you and I do: it just seemed to come 'from out of the blue.' <P>Yes, you are quite right in that she probably does not realize how much her entire life would change if the two of you went your separate ways. There could be a very good reason for this and I urge you to read on and read more posts on this excellent site. Just think about this for a moment. It's easier to make a decision like this when there is some sort of security in the picture. That is, what IF there were someone waiting patiently in the wings for her? It wouldn't be such a horrific experience then, would it? This was an idea that came from my brother to me way back when I felt like my world was going upside down. I was so offended he even mentioned something like this to me--but it turned out he was dead-on right. I sincerely hope and pray this isn't the case for you, and it might well NOT be. Still, it's something to tuck away for future reference, just in case.<P>As for should you get an atty. right now....Alone, I think that's a very good idea. I finally saw one and it accomplished two things: I found out what my rights are in this state (we moved to a new state just last year), and my H stepped back a moment when he found out and started to look at what he was doing in a whole new light. It really got his attention, and he is very anxious now and worried. He never thought I'd do such a thing, and suddenly his new 'interest' (and the life he has fantasized with her) isn't looking so attrative any more. When faced with the reality of REALLY splitting up, he is having more than second thoughts now on wanting to do it. It's one thing to think about it and fantasize about it, but when the line is drawn in the sand, it's quite another thing to cross it. <P>The only thing is that now I am not so sure I want to stay with him. He has hurt me to my very core, and destroyed my happy, safe and secure world with him. Things may never be the same with us again, and to me, that is really sad. I thought we had a great marriage and no one was more shocked than I when it came out of the blue. I am trying Plan A and at least things seem to be calming down a lot more and we are really talking/communicating. As much as what your W says may hurt or shock you, try to keep as calm as you can and let her continue to express her thoughts and feelings. This is the only way you are going to find out (and you WILL find out, eventually) what is bothering her. Don't be too quick to want to hold or hug her--she already knows you are in her corner, no matter what. Perhaps if you withdraw a bit that will shock her into reality. Believe me, I know what I'm saying! Once I pulled back from my H and then later on went to a lawyer for advice, he started to rethink things and now we are having talks that count.<P>Good luck..hang in there and stay strong!<BR>Hugs..<BR>Winny<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited June 20, 2001).]

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Alone - God can and will restore your marriage. Pay no attention to what your wife is saying. The Lord will give you the desires of your heart.<P>You need to pray, fast and believe that the Lord WILL restore your marriage. God IS NOT a man that He should lie.<P>You don't need a counselor, you need the Almighty God to restore your marriage. He WILL do it. Trust Him. Our God is bigger than our marriage problems. There is nothing too hard for our God. Think of all the things the Lord has done for you in the past. He will do it again.<P>Trust God. He will do it for you.<P>I will also keep you in my prayer.

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We have our next session tonight. I am hoping the therapist will start getting a little more specific. I know we have been to two sessions so far, but she has been very generic and seems to get sidetracked into areas that my wife and I do not think are the reason. After my wife and I talked two days ago, I actually feel a little better. I do not know really why...she did not even shed a tear during the whole conversation. But I did get some information on how she felt. I told her that I am seeing no attempts from her to reach out to me. She replied that she is afraid of sending me the wrong "signal"...does not want to raise my hopes if her feelings have not changed. I told her that I would try not to read anything more into it but I felt it was important that she tried to interact more. How else is she going to find out her "true" feelings? It so weird in some ways. We are "fine" together -- no arguing etc. If you were to look at us from the outside, you would think all was calm and smooth.... One question I do struggle with is how long do we go on before I know she will never come back? <BR>Regards....

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Your lives have become so "robotic" that you have forgotten about each other<P>Write your partner a card invitation to a dinner<P>Do not say too much to each other<P>Just change your approach<P>Go out and do some fun things together<P>Say we will be "friends" Good "friends"<P>You have both worked so hard that you are experiencing burnout<P>It is normal<P>But I beleive a flame of desire still flickers there<P>Buy a gift on one occasion<P>A very small gift like a nice piece of jewellery like a ring<P>Do not worry too much to say too much<P>Go for a quiet almost speechless walk after your outings on a lovely warmish evening<P>Go to the jacuzzi together and give each other a backrub at home using baby oil<P>The rest will come alive again<P>Carol<BR>kidnpuppetshows@hotmail.com<P>Mail me if you wish<BR>christian counsellor<BR>prayer partner<BR>and friend<BR>

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Thanks Carol. You bring up some points that I feel and have expressed. I have sent my wife gifts in the past...flowers etc. They do not "do much for her". It is not that she does not appreciate them, it is just not her style. I have bought her some jewelry and she likes and wears them, but she says they are things I want her to have. For example, I wanted to replace her diamond, but she told me that she is perfectly happy with the size of the one she has...does not want a larger diamond. I am trying to change the "approach" but it has got to be 2-way street. She has to find out if she even wants to have a relationship with me anymore. I do not know that answer. I guess the therapist is supposed to be helping us discover that... I am not giving up on her yet! <BR>Regards...

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alone-in-CNY:<BR><B>Thanks Carol. You bring up some points that I feel and have expressed. I have sent my wife gifts in the past...flowers etc. They do not "do much for her". It is not that she does not appreciate them, it is just not her style. I have bought her some jewelry and she likes and wears them, but she says they are things I want her to have. For example, I wanted to replace her diamond, but she told me that she is perfectly happy with the size of the one she has...does not want a larger diamond. I am trying to change the "approach" but it has got to be 2-way street. She has to find out if she even wants to have a relationship with me anymore. I do not know that answer. I guess the therapist is supposed to be helping us discover that... I am not giving up on her yet! <BR>Regards...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi, Alone...<BR>I just wanted to add this one last thing: I wish your wife knew how lucky she is to have a husband like you. Most of the women on this site whose H's have lost interest for them would give anything to receive the attention you seem to give to your wife. I can't recall the last time my H gave me a gift just to surprise me, or make me happy. In fact, the last time he gave me something for Christmas was more than 10 years ago--and I cry silently inside each and every Christmas Day. I'm not being greedy, but it just hurts to see him give gifts to his students and friends but not to me. His reason? He says he 'can't afford it.' Of course, I'm supposed to understand, according to him, but I don't understand. <P>You want to hold your W, and shower her with affection. How fortunate that is for her! I wish I could speak to her and if I could, I'd tell her to kiss the ground you walk on! After 18 years of marriage you still want to show her how much you love her--and she is turning a deaf ear to you. As I am typing this, a word just popped into my mind, and forgive me for saying this, but she sounds very spoiled. She KNOWS you love her--she doesn't even have to try. Wow. I've just about done everything over the years but stand on my head for my H, and have kept myself as neat, well-groomed, trim and as "sexy" as I can--but I think I spoiled him, too. He knows I am crazy about him and HE doesn't have to try, either. <P>Maybe there is a lesson in all of this, I don't know. I just would like your wife to know from me, a heart-broken wife, that she should thank God each day for a mate like you and for all of her blessings. The very least she should do is be honest with you, acknowledge your pain and do her best to see what she can do to ease your pain. I don't think she is doing that, not until she is fully honest with you. I pray that counseling will help the two of you, and as for praying to God, yes, that will help. But you must remmeber that "no" is an answer, too, and if it is not God's will for you to remain together, then you must face that. Ask God what his will is for you and pray to accept it. Ask Him to reveal the truth to you, and He will.<P>Good luck, keep us posted.<P>Winny<BR>

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I do not think it is a question of that she is "spoiled". She knows what we have built together and says she wants to keep that and have a relationship with me -- if possible. These are all positives I take from our discussions. I do not know if she has built up anger or resentment which has created a wall. She is an independent and confident person...some of the many qualities I love in her. We are like 2 pieces that fit together in a puzzle...her strengths and personality are different than mine so that together we make a great couple. I struggle with a concern that I missed some important sign(s) that may have foreshadowed this situation. But I can not go back and have to try to keep a positive outlook. My assignment this week is to write down "positives" I have brought into the marriage. My wife has to write a list of things she is angry -- not necessarily with me. <BR>I just want to take the time to thank everyone who has taken the time to share their thoughts. They have helped me get through the day and to think with my head rather than my emotions.<BR>Regards....

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Its almost been a week and I am not seeing anything. The marriage counselor told me I need to be patient. This is proving to very hard. I am not unrealistic and expect a change overnight but I am expecting to see some sort of attempt. I brought her to work today and helped her bring in her stuff. She is preparing a breakfast for her staff. When we got there and I brought the stuff in the conference room she just turned and said something like I'll call you if I need a ride home. She would not even take the 15 seconds to walk with me to the door and at least give me a hug or a quick kiss. I don't know, maybe I am expecting too much. But I am starting to think she is not willing to let me back into her "tightly controlled" life. Anyone have any thoughts on how to break through?<BR>Regards...

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alone-in-CNY:<BR><B>Its almost been a week and I am not seeing anything. The marriage counselor told me I need to be patient. This is proving to very hard. I am not unrealistic and expect a change overnight but I am expecting to see some sort of attempt. I brought her to work today and helped her bring in her stuff. She is preparing a breakfast for her staff. When we got there and I brought the stuff in the conference room she just turned and said something like I'll call you if I need a ride home. She would not even take the 15 seconds to walk with me to the door and at least give me a hug or a quick kiss. I don't know, maybe I am expecting too much. But I am starting to think she is not willing to let me back into her "tightly controlled" life. Anyone have any thoughts on how to break through?<BR>Regards...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi, Alone...<P>I hope you are not sick of hearing from me by now, but honestly, I am truly concerned for you because I've "been there, done that", too, and know how it feels. How sad that your W didn't even give you the common courtesy of walking you out and at least giving you a quick kiss or squeeze on the arm or something, to show her appreciation for your help.<P>You said in your last post that you didn't think she was spoiled. I don't think you understood what I meant. I meant that she is so secure in knowing YOU love HER that she doesn't even have to try. If your attention to her is not getting her attention, then perhaps you should change your tactics. Back off a bit, even for just a day or two, and see what happens. I read on this site someplace that the best difinition for insanity is doing the same thing the same way time after time and expecting different results. I am not calling you insane, Alone, but think about it: she is not responding to the things you are doing, so perhaps if you changed, she might notice and start to wonder. I did this with my H and it worked wonders. He started to think and I mean really think about me and about us. After about a month of my backing off, he came to me one day and asked me outright if there was someone else! I couldn't believe what I was hearing! It was at that point that things started to turn around for us, and today, we are really communicating and getting our lives back together.<P>Alone, don't let her know how much you love her at this point. IF she is in that fog (i.e., someone else in her life), you are only going to make her back away from you even further. If there is no one else, then you may just shake her back into reality a bit. If she has simply just fallen out of love with you (not attracted to you anymore), then she'll welcome your backing off and feel more at ease around you. The point is you need to change what you're doing, because if you keep going on in the same way, you are only going to get the same results, which at this point is nothing, or at least, not what you want.<P>Good luck...keep us posted!<BR>Hugs,<BR>Winny<P>

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I am still 99.99% sure there is no one else. I have thought about some of those things...it would be very easy to do but I do not know where the line is drawn. She may feel that I am forcing her to choose now. I do not know what it would ultimately be but I would have to lean towards the separation route. I feel she has me walled out preety well. I do not want to subject the kids and go through the trauma of disassembling our lives only to find out later that she may have second thoughts. It would be very hard to put this all back to gether again once she makes a decision or clearly implies one. I personally feel she is struggling with being the "bad guy" in this and possibly trying to figure a way not to be the cause of a separation. But, there is no way I would stand for a different explaination if this happens -- no matter who initiates the "suggestion". I am not go to lay down and accept something I do not want or take the major responsibility for. I am not saying I was perfect spouse the past 18 years, but I have always known that I loved her and valued being married to her as the most important thing to me. However, I am afraid it will eventually turn into something adversarial -- which I know is not usually for the best. I only have so much patience and I do not think I am asking for a lot -- some visible attempt from my wife. It is going to answer the question either way -- she wants me in her life or not....<BR>Regards....

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Wanted to give you an update. Our family trip went OK. It was hard to keep that "All is fine" face in front of her family. But we all had a good time. I am beginniing to doubt the therapist. I think she is ignoring -- or not trying to determine if my wife wants to be married any longer. I have told her and my wife that I want this more than anything, but I still feel she is making any attempt to reach out. Our last session ended with a another shocker...my wife told the therapist that she did not want me "to reach out to her". I really feel I am part of an episode of the Twilight Zone...<BR>Regards....

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alone-in-CNY:<BR><B>Wanted to give you an update. Our family trip went OK. It was hard to keep that "All is fine" face in front of her family. But we all had a good time. I am beginniing to doubt the therapist. I think she is ignoring -- or not trying to determine if my wife wants to be married any longer. I have told her and my wife that I want this more than anything, but I still feel she is making any attempt to reach out. Our last session ended with a another shocker...my wife told the therapist that she did not want me "to reach out to her". I really feel I am part of an episode of the Twilight Zone...<BR>Regards....</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Alone,<BR>I am just curious about something here: you said the session ended with your wife's shocking comment. Didn't you ask why, or were you both told to end the session at that point and you'll take it up at the next one? <P>If that had been my husband's comment, I wouldn't have left that room until I had an answer from him, counselor or no! There has got to be some reason that she has not revealed to you that she feels this way--and that in itself is a problem. Why doesn't she feel open enough to be totally honest with you? <P>Right now, your wife has the best of all worlds. She is free to come and go and in the process, stomp on your feelings because you are so anxious and eager to win her back--and, she is free to be as closed off as a clam with no recriminations from you. What I'm saying is, it sounds to me like she wants to have her cake and to eat it, too, and to heck with how you feel. If she truly did NOT want to be in your marriage any more, she would be an adult and GO, or end it gracefully. Could it be she has some sort of secret 'security' going on of which you are not aware? <P>I'm sorry, but things are just not adding up here, Alone. I think down deep, you know that, too, but perhaps you are not ready to deal with it just yet.<P>Let me phrase this another way: my husband is a very articulate, attractive and classy guy. Women are very attracted to him and he has a very warm, easy-going and caring approach to nearly everyone. It's almost as if he is unaware of how appealing he is, and I think that only adds to his overall charm. Well, one of his martial arts students (female, married) developed a crush on him and let him know about it. Because we were going through some very rough times, he allowed himself to fantasize and thank God, did NOT step over that line. But, he came darn close. The good Lord stepped in and literally put things right in my hands (I didn't even have to snoop!)and revealed this situation to me. We talked it out and endured many sleepless nights and downright screaming matches--but, today, nearly one year later, he has come to his senses. He realized all by himself that he was very vulnerable and someone just stepped in and tried to use that to her advantage. <P>I've been Plan A'ing for these past 6 months or so, and it has worked for us. It was true that I did not meet many of his emotional needs--nor was he meeting many of mine. Things are vastly different now and we are on the true road to recovery. BUT..this would not have happened had I not found out the truth. He was too scared to tell me, it was as simple as that.<P>I pray that this is not your situation but I have to tell you, with each post of yours, things are not looking so good at all. Your marriage will not improve until your wife is honest with you, totally and completely. Hang in there...I have a feeling it will be soon. I hope so, anyway, for your peace of mind in the long run.<P>Good luck! Keep her talking to you....<BR>Hugs,<BR>Winny<BR>

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I hear what you are saying. I guess I've let her control things too long. I am planning to ask the therapist the same issues you bring up. I need something to measure progress with -- but the main question is what does she want to do with US? It is a real tightrope, I do not want to push her into a decision she may not be ready for. If she chooses the separate ways it will change the atmosphere dramatically. Unfortunately, I can see it easily going "confrontational", because I am not go to roll over and play "dead". I know that is not generally a "good" thing and I will do my best to keep everything civil... But, I will go the extra 10 miles if the need arises to save it all. It is worth that and more...<BR>Thanks for all the comments and insights. They have helped me alot.<BR>Regards....

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Wow! I have spent the whole morning reading your post and the replies in between my work. Alone, I cannot believe how much we are in the same predicament. My H and I are dancing to the same song. We, too, have been together nearly 18 years, half our lives (since I was 15) and married for 12 years. Our second home and 3 children later, my husband says he is not "in love" with my any more. It was just after our 10 yr anniversary. A month later (on Father's Day) he packed up and moved to an Apt. Our life was in complete chaos. My children were young and could not understand. Six weeks later he came back home and of course it was good for the moment. It has been 2 years now and right around our anniversary (twice already) he comes out with the same attitude. I don't understand it. I love him so much it is breaking my heart. I'm reading a book on how to be a "surrendered wife" by Laura Doyle and trying to relinquish my old ways, which, according to him are a problem. I'm trying to change. Either he doesn't see it or doesn't care. I can't tell. I'm trying to hang in there to talk to him and find out what it is that is bothering him. I try to explain that wounds take time to heal. His comment, how long? A lifetime? I don't think so. But he has to be willing to try to make it work with me. I think there is a dark cloud hovering over our relationship. It is a female work associate that he seems to calling all the time. I have questioned it but he says there is nothing going on. I believe him 90% but that 10% says don't be blind. I can't tell. I just believe that he is so vulnerable that she may take advantage of that. I don't trust her nor the 10% that reminds me he is HUMAN. <P>I truly believe that communication is the key to success. I am trying to get that through his head. I'm new to this web site and I have yet to show him the Emotional Needs QNR. I plan to discuss it with him in the near future. Our problem it that we never make the time for US. We get along fine at social events and with the kids. My family adores him and should we ever split up again. It will be disastrous. One thing I told him a month ago is that he needed to decide whether he wanted to work it out or split up. BUT if we split up he would not be leaving. Me and the kids would go to my moms, leaving him with all the bills and house. This seemed to set him back a bit. It would be completely different than before. He left me at the house and came to visit at his convenience, almost every day until I put my foot down. I suppose the thought of me being with my parents would not give him the freedom to do as he chose. I'm taking it one day at a time. I, too, am determine to make this marriage work. I feel in my hear we are meant for each other. Keep me posted as I find this post very informative.<P>I pray for our marriages.<P>God Bless,<BR>

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>>I think there is a dark cloud hovering over our relationship. It is a female work associate that he seems to calling all the time. I have questioned it but he says there is nothing going on. I believe him 90% but that 10% says don't be blind. I can't tell. I just believe that he is so vulnerable that she may take advantage of that. I don't trust her nor the 10% that reminds me he is HUMAN.>><P>Hi, Determined,<BR>I felt compelled to answer your post, D. I'm glad your eyes are open, and you are keeping watch on things. If you read through a lot of the posts on this site, you'll learn a lot about these situations where spouses say "there is nothing going on." That's what my H said, too, but I never believed that. In my case, I accidentally found a letter from a woman who he insisted "nothing was going on" with that just rocked my world! It was clear that she had an intense crush on him, and he tried to claim ignorance of it. That didn't wash with me, either, because he changed so much towards me so quickly. Even though we are now in the Recovery phase (we darned near split up!), he STILL will not admit to an emotional affair, and I doubt he ever will. But, that's what was going on and once the truth came out, that's when real healing started. He at least did admit to a "friendship" with this woman, and I told him that it was wrong. No married person should have such a close 'friendship' with a person of the opposite sex..period. It is just one small step away from a full blown affair (called "PA" on this board, or "physical affair"), and he had to choose between HER friendship, or our marriage. He chose our marriage.<P>One thing I've learned through all this is that God has given us all a gift called intuition, and when those little warning bells ring, we had better pay attention. I wrote someplace else on this site something that my brother said to me a while back, when I first told him of my suspicions about my H and a 'possible' OW. He said, <BR>"You know him better than anyone else on earth. You know his every mood, nuance, gestures, wants, needs, and so much more. You know when something isn't right, and your intuition is letting you know this right now. Listen to it...it's there for a reason and coupled with the knowledge you already have of your mate, it is a powerful tool. Use it wisely, but USE it."<P>If I knew my H was calling some woman all the time, I would most definitely find out why! This is how bonds are formed, by conversations, especially those that are sought out and happen often. Dr. Harley says that most affairs start out by having emotional needs met by another person, and how better to get those across than conversations? <P>Our biggest problem is having to face the truth. In the BS case (betrayed spouse), it's the truth of knowing someone we love and trusted so completely vioated that trust. It hurts like hell and is about the most vile thing that can happen to someone. Just read the posts on this site and you'll see what I mean! In the WS case ('wandering spouse), they must face the truth of having violated someone's trust and faith and love--but while in the fog of infatuation, that's almost impossible for them to do.<P>Keep on reading and make sure you read all of Dr. Harley's articles on Infidelity, Plan A-Plan B, etc. I wish you success and want you to know that this site can be a lifesaver for you. It's helped me to stay sane, keep a level head on my shoulders, and ultimately, it helped to save my marriage.<P>God bless...<BR>Winny

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Thanks for the info Winny. We had a very rough weekend. I expressed my feelings about this other woman my H is friends with and he said there is nothing going on. I asked him again why he calls her so much and he said its not so much. I asked him why he called her at all. He said they were just friends. I told him that obviously he enjoyed talking with her and that he should talk to me instead. I expressed how I did not approve of such communication and that it was interfering with my effort to make our marriage work. Also if he had some sort of need for me to meet how can I do that if I don't know what it is. I wanted to spend some time together with him and reminded him that we no longer communicated and that was a big problem. We also have some past issues that he has never forgiven me for. If he had forgiven me then they would be forgotten and he has not forgotten. It seems the beginning problem is that I left him with our one year old for approximately 20 hours a week to work part time as a Youth Minister at our church and did not want him to be part of it for my own reasons. At first he was very supportive of my decision, but later did not like it. I was committed for a year and stopped immediately. This really caused problems in my marriage and now it still haunts me. <P>It is very difficult for me to comprehend why my service for our Lord would turn against me and cause marriage problems when we are who He joined. Well, I put my marriage into His hands every day and I trust He will turn it around, eventually. <P>Thanks for your post and I will keep in touch. I could go on for hours about my problems but I need to work. Have a good day.<P>Determined1

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Alone- I empathize with you. Over the past twenty two years of marriage, things have gone down hill. My wife says she doesn't feel for me as a wife should. There is no intimacy. We have chit chat but no real conversations. About 3 months ago, I susspected that my wife was having an EA with a man at her work. I don't know if it was physical but he was her workout partner at the gym and since has been let go for an unrelated reason. She is into bodybuilding and he was her partner. After I found out I asked her not to workout with him. Since he has left, I have suspicions that she talks to him on the phone almost every day. Before I realized the EA was going on, my wife just didn't respond to me. And now it is worse. I try not to bring up OM because as in Winny's case it doesn't help and the WS will only open up when ready. It is really hard especially when you want her to love you back. I try to do nice things for her like I always have. I bring her coffee in the morning and fix her lunch. She has a job with odd hours so I do what I can around the house. I think now after listening to Winny's great advice that I may be pushing too much. I write her small notes in her lunch and send e-mails. That may be too much for now and it might be overburdening her. Anyway alone, your post is very similar to mine. Good luck to you

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Thanks for the responses. We have our next appointment tonite. I am supposed to write down things that make me angry in our marriage. It is a tough list to come up with because I don't stay angry...I tend to move on very quickly. One of the things I plan on saying is my frustration with some of the sessions. I feel that we have gotten sidetracked on less important issues. When my wife made statements such as "she didn't want me reaching out to her", "if the kids weren't here I would probably be gone.." and "she doesn't know why..." I believe they should be the areas we should be concentrating on. Especially, since she has stated that she knows that this whole situation is being caused by her. In 2.5 weeks, we will reach our 18th anniversary and I never dreamed I would be facing this. She has emotionally and physically isolated me from her (our) life the past 3 months. Most of the posts in this thread have brought me a measure of hope and helped me get this far. I do not want to "push" her into a decision she is not ready to make. But, I do believe I deserve something that lets me know she trying to let me back into her life.<BR>Regards....

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Alone,<BR>I am praying for you both that your session is productive tonight. If it's any consolation, I really do know just how you feel. I was in the same spot last summer (which, coincidentally happens to be our anniversary, too, in August)and I know it is sheer emotional turmoil and hell. Out of all the people in the world, my husband was the last one I'd ever dream would hurt me so badly, but the fact is that he did hurt me by shutting me out so completely. <P>All I can tell you is to pray, Alone. Pray for strength to get you through this awful time; pray for patience to keep your cool, and most of all pray for inner peace. If you ask God to reveal the truth to you, He will. But remember this: He will do this in His time, not yours. Only the Lord can see the bigger picture, Alone, and this is where real faith comes in. It takes an enormous amount of faith to emotionally hang in there, and to know that eventually, all will be revealed to you. Now, I am not a particularly 'religious' person, but I do believe in God and have had many personal experiences with Him. Last year, when I felt I could not bear my H's cold and downright cruel treatment of me anymore, I turned to prayer and the first thing that happened was I quieted down. I stopped asking my H 'what's wrong?', and just sat quietly by, watching and observing. One day, while looking for a piece of jewelry of mine, I stumbled upon something that rocked my world: it was a very personal letter from some woman to my H, and suddenly, his behavior made perfect sense. However, this event did not happen until about three months had passed since his change towards me. <P>Looking back now, I can see how and why God allowed me to find that letter at precisely that time. It was exactly two days before we were going to spend the holiday with this woman and her husband--it was enough time to confront my H and get some REAL dialogue going with him. <P>Yes, you are right: you do deserve some concrete explanation from your W, and to find out if she wants you in her life or not. The one thing you cannot do is to demand it, Alone. I know--I tried that, too, and it was futile. She will not open up to you until she is ready. It's how you act now that will either help make her ready or not. If all else fails, just pray as hard as you've ever prayed and trust that God will help you. <P>Good luck, and please keep us updated!<BR>Hugs and prayers,<BR>Winny<P><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited July 10, 2001).]

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Dear Alone,<P>I am sorry for all the pain you are going through.<P>Have you read all the material here on the Harley's site? Are you implementing a good Plan A? If your wife won't fill out the Emotional Needs questionnaire herself, Dr. Harley says that you should fill it out for her as best as you can. Figure out those emotional needs (ENs) that you are not meeting and work on them.<P>It sounds like your wife is in the Withdrawal stage where her "Taker" is the only one operating. This makes it hard to do things that please her, but try whatever you can to deposit love units in her love bank.<P>I would say don't pressure her now for a committment to the marriage or even to trying. Right now it might just have to be enough that she hasn't packed up and moved out. While she is still there you have an opportunity to try and figure this out and win her back.<P>It really isn't fair that you have to do all the work, but it is often the case that the spouse who doesn't want to lose the marriage is the one who has to initiate the changes. In my case I had to do most of the work for 7 months until my husband came out of the fog of his affair. (I usually hang out over on the pregnancy/child board for those whose husbands have had an affiar and fathered a child by that affair [my situation] or a wife who has had an affair and gotten pregnant by her lover.) None of it was fair, not the affair, not the child, not the fact that I had to do much of the work, but it has all been *worth* it as we have come back to a renewed marriage and a profound sense of togetherness in facing adversity.<P>I wish you peace,<BR>MJ

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Alone-in-CNY,<BR>I couldn't sympathize with/for you more. My relationship sounds very similar to yours. On <BR>Tuesday, my wife and I enter into our first Marriage Counseling session and from reading your posts' <BR>I already feel like I've lost her.<BR> <BR>My wife and I have only been together for seven years and apparently my intimacy and affection over those years has been other than substantial. She had conversed with many other people on the issue prior to speaking directly on the subject with me. Hine Sight, I now have realized all the <BR>affection I lacked to share. <P>A bit of background on us: We're a young couple, 28, 26 very attractive and often receive compliments on how affectionate and compatible we are in public. We just (1yr) bought a new <BR>house which took every ounce of *ambition* to complete(we had it built). We have some loving animals, it took the *both* of us to build their personalities. We(she) also race standardbred horses, I'm employed through the military. Now concerning the horse business...As of recently (not directly <BR>to me) my wife expressed how most of our *little things* have become quite routine and how a certain someone at the Barn just may fulfill those certain *little things.* Prior to my knowledge of this I asked her if she felt lust,love, or affection for anyone else, to which of course she said denied. Until last week when I intercepted an e-mail(she asked me to check her mail from work). In this e-mail it expressed concern from a mutual friend steering my wife to stand clear of this "Horse boy." <P>Now, the only time she has shed a tear in my presence during this crisis was when I confronted her with the horse boy e-mail, she insists nothing is going on between them. Let me ask a question, how would you guys feel in these situations??<BR>1. (said to me) You don't have to come to the barn everyday, that is my time to think and be alone...I respect her privacy.<BR>2. (again said to me by my wife's friend) Your wife feels very vulnerable.....<BR>3. Horse boy's actions when I'm there...very distant from me and often very angry at the horses.<BR>4. (expressed to me) She said how she found a certain look(doo rag, baggy running pants, the athletic look) to be appealing....hmmm this is just how horse boy dresses. (I'm very athletic though do not dress in this fashion)<P>I'm not a loose cannon, if I were he and I would've had a word or two and at this point in my life I'm willing to do anything to keep my wife and I together.<P>I don't know if I'm attempting to replace myself with someone else as blame for how we are feeling, or if he may actually be part of our problem. When she broke this news to me, I immediately closed up to her....This may be the last time hold her this way....though recently I took the advice of someone on this board and backed off quite a bit(except while we sleep). There is nothing quite like your loves warm body, soft skin and scent to help drift you off...<P>Thank you all in advance for any insight, and I apologize for being short on the post. Though I will elaborate if anyone wishes..<P>Goin for broke!<BR>

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I certainly can empathize with all of you in this type of arrangement. I really wish it was just a bad dream or could be medically explained etc. We had a session (our 5th) last Tuesday. Sometimes, I am so frustrated in those mtgs. because I don't think the therapist hears me. It is so strange --- everything else in our life is functioning normally. My wife just does not want anything to do with me in any intimate way. She claims she does not know why and the therapist has told me that this is probably true. It is just hard for me to accept it. The therapist tells me I need to be patient but somedays I don't think I can make it. It has been more than three months since I have had any physical contact of any kind. I can't imagine being with anyone else but I can't go on being hurt forever. I'm not one for corny metaphors but if you don't tend to your garden it will die from neglect. I can only go so far in this relationship -- she has to meet me somewhere. Some of the people posting here have had the heartbreak of finding out there is "someone else". I have looked at this possibility in my case and so far nothing even faintly suggesting that is the case for me. If it were, given what I have gone thru so far, my immediate thought would be to end it quickly. But everyone needs to evaluate that kind of decision on their own set of circumstances. <BR>Take care....

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Dear GFB,<BR>It is obvious to me after reading your post that your W has a crush on this 'horse boy.' She told you to keep away from the place where she goes for recreation (the barn). She obviously talked to her friend and confided something to her, and her friend felt it was pretty urgent, so she alerted you (your W is 'vulnerable'). Suddenly, her personal taste in what's sexy or not changed--and it's NOT the way YOU dress. This is a clever way of saying that you are not sexy to her anymore--clothes are optional.<P>Now, ordinarily this would be just a simple infatuation/crush thing, but you also said the OM (May I please refer to him as the other man--OM-- because horse boy gives me a really odd mental picture!)has a change of attitude around you, and it isn't a good attitude. GFB, if you are thinking that these two have a little fling going, you are probably right-on. She has withdrawn from you and is pushing you out of one area of her life, she has talked about her feelings to someone else, and is telling you straight out that something else is appealing to her. The only thing missing is a photograph or video of the two of them interacting together! <P>What, exactly, do you mean by "little things"? Are you referring to casual conversation or out and out sex? If you asked her to explain in more detail, was she honest with you, do you think? What was her response, and what was yours? <P>Here is what I feel, GFB: sometimes, people do develop crushes and they can happen out of the blue, and for no good apparent reason. It's how we act and conduct ourselves that counts, and lots of times, people give in to the urge to try something new, or different, sometimes out of a sense of boredom or hidden frustration. It sounds like you both have a lot going for you, so why would she act upon a crush with someone new? That's something you have to ask her,GFB. Only the two of you know what your relationship is like and what may be lacking in it or not. I know that in my first marriage, I developed a crush on another man simply because my H was so neglectful of everything from our relationship to our home. After a while, it was like I was stuck with someone who was from another planet, and it was like we were just two roommates living under the same roof. He did not meet my emotional needs, so I wandered. Someone else was willing and ready to meet those needs, so I caved in to the urge to feel desired and appreciated again. <P>I hope that your counseling sessions are productive, and don't feel as if you've lost her for good. Be open with her, and ready to listen to what she has to say. It's when we close our minds out of anger or hurt to our spouses that we then risk losing them forever. She is clearly crying out that she is not happy right now with you--and you need to find out why. Remember this, both you and Alone: if your W's truly wanted to be rid of you, they would GO. No power on earth could hold them or prevent them from going, if that is what they truly wanted. Right now, both W's are confused and confusion is really a call for help in disguise. <P>Good luck, and please keep us updated on your progress!<P>Hugs,<BR>Winny<P>

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Winny, <BR>Thank you for your input. Your critical thought masked that of mine. Currently I'm at work, so I'll have to respond again tomorrow. My work schedule make this even harder, I do a 24 hr shift(sleep for 8 hrs) and if I'm not busy..it feels like 24 hours!!! I have to say what you and your significant other went through was hell if it's anything like my situation. I don't think necessarily she finds me unattractive in a physical way, maybe at an intimate level(our little things). My wife believes she has bent up hostility towards our relationship which built over time. I don't understand why we would agree to do so much together if her feeling were not in tune with mine. I pray she hasn't been led to that water that flows through through the rock, for when it freezes it splits the rock in two...For some reason I don't think anything has happened between the two of them, and for who knows maybe I'm attempting to place someone else at fault??? <P>Due to my urgency, this board is my only other source of counsel. Counselors must not see the urgency in immediate sessions??? <P>I will keep everyone posted. <P>Thank You

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HI, GFB,<BR>Thanks for your reply to my post. I can sense the pain you are in, and I know that right now you are feeling very confused and almost lost. I've been there, too, with my present husband over this past year. I never dreamed that he could even look at another woman let alone have some kind of relationship with her, but that is what happened.<P>One of the first clues was his sudden change in attitude towards me. It did NOT make any sense at all to me. It seemed to come from out of the blue, and it was funny, but all of the clues were right there for me to see. Only, I didn't see them at first. I don't think anyone really does, at first. Clues were: he became very withdrawn from me, argumentative over the simplest things, he found fault with everything I said or did, he became highly critical of me, he brought up things that were years and years old and didn't seem to remember them 'right', or as I remembered them. One of the biggest clues was that our sex life just wasn't anymore. No sex, no cuddling or touching--nada, nothing. It was as if he became not only a stranger to me, but an enemy. All the while, I was totally in the dark, had no idea what was really going on--until I found a very personal letter from the OW to him. Then, things started to make sense. I have never felt such emotional pain in all my life and actually had thoughts of suicide. But, I found this site instead, and read everything I could on it. I've been in Plan A for the past few months and am happy to tell you that it really does work.<P>I'm telling you all this because both you and Alone-in-CNY seem to be in similar straights right now. If you go to Dr. Harley's article on "Signs of a Cheating Spouse", you'll see your predicament might line up with some of (or many of) the things in that article. THAT is what really opened up my eyes, GFB. You must remember that spouses who cross the line hardly ever confess to their wrong-doing. It's almost an unwritten law someplace that they do not admit their affairs--and by the way, if you haven't read about Emotional Affairs (called EA's on this board), you really should make that a priority. In many ways, EA's are more damaging than PA's (physical affairs, where sex is involved) because they establish a bond between the new couple, and sometimes can go all the way to the two falling in love with each other. <P>From what you described in your first post, your W is throwing out all kinds of clues at you, right down to telling you in a round about way that she finds the OM attractive. Wow! Open your ears, as painful as it may be, and listen to what she is saying to you. Don't just hear her words, really LISTEN to her. You can expect to feel a lot of emotional pain, but you must get through that pain and to the root of the problem if you are ever going to win her back. <P>You said that for some reason you don't feel anything has happened. I think what you might mean is nothing happened physically yet, and you may be right. BUT, if you don't get and keep those lines of communication open with her right now, and be willing to accept the fact that someone else has captured her attention, the physical part happening is just a matter of time. God is giving you an opportunity to find out what's going on in her head and her heart, and just sitting by and waiting to see what happens is about the worst thing you can do. She needs to know how you feel and why, and she needs to know this right now, too. <P>Your statement that perhaps someone else could be at fault kind of confused me. Could you please explain what you meant? Like many of us with WS's ('wandering spouses'), you may not want to see what is under your very nose, and that's very normal. It's a method of self preservation, but blinding ourselves to the possibility that our spouse might wander (or has wandered)can be deadly to our relationship with him or her. Remember this old saw? "There are none so blind as they who will not see." There is a ton of truth in that, so be very cautious. <P>Just keep on coming to this wonderful site, GFB. READ, read and read some more--read all of Dr. H's articles and if you can, print them out to read at your own pace/time. I did, and believe me, this site literally saved my marriage. Start with his Basic Concepts, then move on to his writings on Infidelity. I'm urging you to do this because I know what the pain is like from a WS, and hate to think of you and Alone-in CNY going through it, too. <P>Keep on posting here, too. For many of us, this fine site is our ONLY means of procuring knowledge in repairing a marriage, and I think it should be required reading for all those who are contemplating marriage. It's really that good.<P>Good luck, hope to hear back from you real soon...<BR>Hugs,<BR>Winny<P>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited July 17, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited July 17, 2001).]

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I hope this post finds everyone well, or the best they can be for the moment...<P>Well our first night of counseling was somewhat productive in the sense of the Counselor building a foundation. My wife spoke as I sulked and teared up. the infamous "what's wrong with your relationship" question was asked, my wife's response was "D, all of the above..." Our next session will be next Tuesday, together unlike "Alone" where he and his wife appeared separately.<P>Alone, has your wife expressed anything regarding your years together, i.e., your past emotions, affection, expression or the lack there of or they ways you may have handled your relationship or conflicts between the two of you?<P>Winny, I completely understand what you are saying concerning the OM, emotionally and physically. Though maybe I'm attempting to avoid that harsh reality, holding out and holding on, praying it's something else. What I meant by attempting to find someone else at fault, is my way of expressing denial. The OM is a good person and I hat to tarnish his working relationship with my wife(day late, <BR>dollar short) but at the same time when does it become "ok" to be a jealous husband? I spoke to my wife about that, she had no response. I think it would be down right *wrong* for a spouse not to feel jealous in my situation. <P>My emotional pain is tremendous to a point of being nauseating, I'm sure very similar to what you felt though without the suicide. Thanks for listening, sorry Alone if I'm stealing you thunder. You and I are sharing a moment of intimacy together as all humans should. Why couldn't we share these feelings continuously with our spouses for the past ?? years. We as men are just numb to such emotional expression until it seems to be too late. My wife and I still sleep in the same bed, though rarely touching( I do as much as possible now), it just makes me feel so incomplete not having her attention...<P>Take care bud, hang in there and as a great professor passed onto me once...The hardest thing to say in a relationship is "Lets talk," obviously you and I needed to express this to our wives much sooner but try it anyway... Buy a couple of mushy books and get some of that stomach churning crying out. It feels so good, just don't go beyond the though of being depressed into a state of manic depression. <BR>Thanks Winny!<BR>

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goinforbroke:<BR>[B] The OM is a good person and I hat to tarnish his working relationship with my wife(day late, <BR>dollar short) but at the same time when does it become "ok" to be a jealous husband?>><P>Hi, GFB!<BR>Hope you are doing OK, too. I'm hanging in there, praying that what I think I'm seeing is what really IS, and not what I wish it to be. My H seems to be coming around, and at least for today, I am thankful for that!<P>When is it OK to be jealous? I think I can help answer that one! It's normal to feel jealous when someone we love puts someone else's feelings above our own. You see, when my H was in his EA, I was-- and still am-- extremely jealous of the attention he gave to the OW. Note the difference: I am not jealous of HER (in fact, I think she's a bit of a kook, to be honest with you)but of the time and attention he gave to her. It hurt me deeply, more than I've ever been hurt emotionally before. I want to be "first" with him. Just thinking about his giving his attention or affection to someone else makes me downright nauseous! <P>Now, why is this, do you suppose? Because I love him and to me, HE comes first. He always did, since I first fell in love with him. For him to put someone else in that first spot is like a slap in the face to me, as if he is saying, "Your feelings are not important to me anymore." Since we are what we feel (i.e., if you feel hungry, then you ARE hungry, etc.)that is akin to saying "YOU are not important to me anymore." Jealous? I think it's entirely natural and human to feel jealous under these circumstances, affair or NO affair!<P>I'd like to respond to your following comment, too, GFB. You wrote:<P>>>Why couldn't we share these feelings continuously with our spouses for the past ?? years. We as men are just numb to such emotional expression until it seems to be too late.>> <P>Wow! From a woman's perspective, I have to say that that is the single biggest love buster going. So many of us women say the same thing: why doesn't he open up to me and share what's going on in his mind or heart? I've finished reading Dr. John Gray's book, "Men Are From Mars....etc.", and it made a world of sense. Men as a rule just do not open up and talk the way women do. For us, it's as natural as breathing but for a man, just solving the problem is his goal, and to heck with talking about it. That's a very brief and poor summary of Dr. Gray's theories, but I think close enough. A woman NEEDS to hear "I love you." She needs to be reminded verbally that she is desirable, endearing, loveable, sexy, and just plain GOOD. Men tend to feel that their actions alone should be enough to 'prove' their love to their women, but that isn't the case. Women are emotional creatures by nature and our mainstay is verbal communication. If our men do not take the time to open up to us and TELL us how they feel, then eventually, we feel unloved. It's as simple as that. My own H is one of the biggest offenders of this! I can't recall the last time he actually said "I love you" to me. Ditto to how sexy or pretty I look, or how nicely I keep house, or how good I did on my job and so on. NO praise. No reassurance that I was special to him. All I got was how miserable life became after I got ill. Talk about laying a guilt trip on someone!! To be honest with you, it's a wonder I still love him at all. Many a woman would have walked away a long time ago and to be truthful, I thought about it myself, way before he even had his EA. <P><BR>I'm sorry...I know this was long, but it did my heart good to hear a man actually admit what you did. Hugs and more hugs to you, and I wish your wife only knew what a true gem she has for a husband!! <P>Now, I hope we hear back from Alone and see how things are going with him. Hopefully, ALL of us will wind up back with our mates to where we should be. It's good to have someone to talk to about this, isn't it?? Thanks again!<BR>Hugs,<BR>winny

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Wife had a one-one session today. She called me and told me it was "productive and the therapist thinks there is hope". I told her I'd like to hear some of what was discussed if she felt like sharing. But I have had my hopes dashed in the past so I will wait. Basically, I am uncomfortable that she holds all the cards....I can't reach out to her and she is "afraid" to reach out to me because she is unsure of the "signal" it may send. This is something the therapist is supposed to be helping her find out. Meanwhile, it is 11 days until our 18 anniversary. I don't know how I'll feel if things haven't changed....<BR>Regards....

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Winny,<BR>Funny you mentioned that book...I purchased it yesterday, "together forever." It blew the dust off my <BR>brain and I've already began to change my thinking. I'm hanging in there... though each day has <BR>begun to elongate. I had off from work yesterday and again today and if today becomes as long as <BR>yesterday felt....GOD!!!<P>Last night we began our exercises, it was progressive for the both of us though for myself it was <BR>torture. (Our past) We worked in the same entity together, similar to being in the same building, <BR>same company, just different departments so basically we spent quite a bit of time together. <BR>(Present) Last night my wife told me she believed our relationship was a "professional relationship," <BR>(this was just after she told me how much fun we had going out all the time in our earlier years) and <BR>that she doesn't love me anymore except as a person. SHATTERING..... In my perspective <BR>professional relationships develop between coworkers, not on an intimate level. It was only after the <BR>therapist and one of her friends mentioned this she hooked on to the reasoning (I assume). From this <BR>point of view let me express how I feel about counseling and my wife. She is content with picking up <BR>and leaving, I am not. Though my attempts to keep her as my wife are futile. It's like giving someone <BR>CPR who is non responsive. You just can't stop though you already know the final outcome. With <BR>this said, not I'm having second thoughts on why I should keep trying with her and not throw in the <BR>towel. She is very complacent on her decision...<P>"and I wish your wife only knew what a true gem she has for a husband!!" I think she does realize <BR>what type of person i am to her. We used to say and mean "I love you" all the time until recently she <BR>expressed she doesn't feel the compassion to say it anymore. They are just words...This is also truly <BR>devistating!<P>The OM has become angry (so my wife says) at the very thought I perceived. I just see her with him <BR>for some reason. The other morning I arrived at the training center (the Barn) earlier to give my wife <BR>a late start, everything was done when she arrived. Now between me not saying anything but "how <BR>ya doin'" (and that's all I ever say to him) to the OM he figured out I thought there was something <BR>going on between he and my wife. In an attempt not to ruin anyone's lively hood, I was going to <BR>apologize (to the OM) for thinking that way. My wife told me not to say anything to him at all <BR>because he is short tempered and I can be at times. The barn is now her office and she would like to <BR>avoid anymore conflict there then I/she may have already created. <P>I'm becoming more frustrated at her lack of ambition to repair us...she doesn't want to. To benefit <BR>from counseling you have got to believe somehow you can change or correct the way you feel or <BR>think, unfortunately she will not. And I'll have to say you put the word "Jealous" into a whole new <BR>light for me and from what you wrote, that is exactly how I feel.<P>I hope you and your husband rekindle some more today. <P>Alone, sounds like the first step in the right direction.<BR>Take care.<P>

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Alone,<BR>I'm praying for you, Alone. Just keep thoughts of your anniversary as far from the front of your mind as you can for now. When the day gets here, it will be here and you can deal with it then. For now, just keep on keeping on and it sounds encouraging for you right now, by the way. <P>I know what you feel like: my 13th anniversary is coming up next month and I, too, don't know what it's going to be like for us. So, I try not to think about it for now or dwell on it. It's enough that my H and are are speaking and very civil/cordial to each other. It's not perfect, but it's a long way from where we were not so long ago.<P>God bless...<BR>Winny

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HI, GFB,<BR>(glad you got the book, GF! it's a good read and makes a ton of good sense)<P>Talk about prophetic! I had a long reply typed up and hit the wrong button and away it flew into cyberspace. This gave me time to think and shorten it way down to this:<P>How did the OM find out that you felt suspicious of his intentions? I feel certain you did not tell him, so who does that leave? Right....your W. Now, if she told him that and he has such a flash temper, why did he not confront you? I have a feeling your W is a very clever gal who likes to keep all of her bases well covered. Again, this is very like my H, who tried very hard to make sure I couldn't follow a trail, for want of a better word. She doesn't want any unpleasantness at her place of work, so she tells you to back off? Of course, you will respect her wishes because you are very eager to win her back. It sounds to me like she has the PERFECT set up, my friend, and you might very well be playing right into it. I actually cringed when I read that you were really considering apologizing to him! Remember: you are not the one stepping outside your marriage vows here. Your wife has yet to prove she isn't either, given the statements she's made and the way she's treated you lately. <P>Follow your gut hunches, your intuition, GFB. God put them there for a good reason and it's up to us to use these gifts or not.<P>God bless,<BR>Winny<BR>

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Winny, <BR>Finished the book, very good reading and thinking material though I wish I would've read the initial Men are from Mars when the mother in law brought it over...maybe I wouldn't be in this predicament.<P>I never though pain as intense as this existed. Emotions are just so powerful it's unreal. I can't say whether or not she is falling for this OM, and I don't really enjoy thinking about your responses(not being negative towards you, it just hurts me so deeply). Though I can't really rebuttal with anything nice to say of him and now my desire to visit my wife at the training facility has diminished in an attempt to give her space and to avoid conflict(with everyone over there). She has such a special magic with those animals and it makes me so giddy to see her so giddy working with them it's so FRUSTRATING!!!!<P>Another thing that frustrates me is the lack of a caring hug. She is in a time of emotional need and my hugs are sincere..maybe fulfilling to her. Myself on the other hand don't have that nurturing hug from her or anyone. I look into my dog's eyes because he somehow understands and looks back very sincere, causing me to break the stare and tear up. They seem to be the closest friends I have right now. And right now they'd do!!!<P>BTW where are you from in Phila? My Grandmother lives down by Tarsdale???<BR>I'll continue my post on Saturday, work is starting to get busy...<BR>Have a nice evening everyone!<BR>

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Hi, GFB!<P>Sorry I couldn't get back to this post earlier, but my computer needed some work done on it to make it run better.<P>I live in the NW section of Philly. Since I'm new to the place, I have no idea where Tarsdale is! :-)<P>I'm sorry if my words were disturbing to you, and I know you are not upset with me personally, so don't worry about that. Just the thought of our spouses even thinking of someone else in a romantic way is enough to raise the old blood pressure! <P>It is maddening to not receive any sign of affection back from our spouses. I know--I've been there and to this day am sometimes STILL there. The best I can offer you in the way of hope is to start Plan A as soon as possible and have lots of patience, GFB. IF (and please note I capitalized 'if') your W is infatuated with this guy, perhaps that is all it is, an infatuation. Back in school, we called it a crush...remember? If she still loves you, in time with your love and attention to her EN's, she will get over this crush. It happens to the best of us--just a part of being human, I guess.<P>It's very sad when an infatuation is allowed to grow into something more. But those are the operative words: "is allowed." If you can get to the heart of what your W feels is lacking in her life w/you (emotional needs you may not be meeting), then you stand an excellent chance of winning her back. This happened with me and my H, and wow! what a wakeup call I had!! I thought I was such a good little wife, when in reality, I was doing lots of LB's for many years and never even realized it. This does not excuse his EA, but it does help to explain it.<P>Please keep us updated, ok?? As always, I am praying for you!<P>Alone: how are YOU doing?? I've been thinking about you and praying for you, too. How did the last session go? Please, if you have time, drop us a quick line or so and let us know.<P>Hugs and best wishes to you all...<BR>Winny<P><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited July 26, 2001).]

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Well I am still here. But am laying low. It seems my kids have "found" this site accidentally while playing on my computer. So now my 15 yr old is a little "concerned". The last session went a little better. But truthfully, I told her that the ordeal is starting to wear me down. She says she wants to continue our relationship... This is all very maddening. We have another appt next week -- which falls after our anniversary. I am hoping something will happen on our anniversary....at least a kiss would be nice.<BR>Regards.....

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Alone~<BR> Has it ever occurred to you maybe our wives have felt as unloved and minuscule as we do now???Just thought about that today...If it makes you feel any better I only got to see my wife a whole 18 hours out of 7 days last week...my stomached boiled over watching each minute tick by while we were apart. <P>A friend of mine today gave me some good advice..."you can't change her feelings, you can only change your behavior." What this means I haven't the slightest idea. It came after I asked if there was any hope in me trying anymore. We can't suddenly expect our wives to change in an instant nor with out any persuasion from us. So what do we do??? This is my delema, I can't figuire it out.<P>I think it's like being in a coma, something has to remind them of what it was like prior to things taking a turn for the worse. I'm still devastated, so far I've dropped 12 lbs in the last 25 days and haven't slept nearly a wink...I feel your pain man!!!<BR>GFB

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goinforbroke:<BR><B>Alone~<BR> <BR>I think it's like being in a coma, something has to remind them of what it was like prior to things taking a turn for the worse. I'm still devastated, so far I've dropped 12 lbs in the last 25 days and haven't slept nearly a wink...I feel your pain man!!!<BR>GFB</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>GFB,<BR>OK..I'll take a stab at it! Listen...your friend is telling you that you cannot change your wife's mind about having an affair (remember the cursed 'fog'??), but you can change the way you act and react around her. This is why you should really read about Plan A-Plan B. Clearly, there is something you either did or did not do that played a part in your wife's falling out of love with you. You need to find out from her what that was--and make the necessary changes in yourself. There is most likely some emotional need of hers that you did not fulfill, which is what usually starts most affairs. Remember, this is not the same as being at fault for her affair--that was her choice to make, and it was a bad choice, but it was HERS. If you haven't read all of the material Dr. Harley wrote on infidelity, start reading, my friend! Also, read about Plan A, Plan B. <P>Now..I want to make a comment on the above part of your letter that I copied. You said, " something has to remind them of what it was like prior to things taking a turn for the worse." Maybe it feels that way to YOU, but obviously, if things were that great in reality, how "good" could they have been for your wife? I know what you meant, though. You meant you wished you were close to your W again, and that this ugly time you're now having never existed. <P>You need to find out what caused your W to stray in the first place. On this site, you hear about love busters (called LB's for short), and how they can, over time, actually cause someone to look elsewhere. You can only get this info from your wife herself, so like I said before, get her talking to you. Ask her what went wrong, what needs did you not fulfill, why would she even consider a relationship with another man. Once you find out what EN's are important to her, you'll be able to start on the path to recovery (hopefully). <P>Hang in there, and as always, best wishes to you...<BR>Winny

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Winny, <BR>I welcome your thought, but I never said she actually <BR>visited the dark side of infidelity though the thought may <BR>have existed, I've been pretty persistent on the topic and <BR>it just makes her more angry and distant...though I believe <BR>you're right on the money with the interpretation. <P>Now I believe I know what went wrong between us, a major <BR>communication disaster! How do I fix it???....Notice I <BR>sad "I." She will not show the slightest sign of <BR>recovery...I can't change the way she feels I can only <BR>change the way I behave??? I'm attempting to...though she <BR>will not let me in, I guess only due time will tell. When <BR>does kicking the dead horse become just that?? Today I just <BR>wanted the pain to end and almost agreed to end the <BR>relationship.<P>FYI, I'm not abusive in any manner and I don't particularly <BR>like to argue. I speak well, I've been told I'm <BR>attractive/in shape, non alcoholic/non smoker....the <BR>counselor said I was anal because I began to get angry in <BR>her office, but who knows about those people. How sound can <BR>they be, right?? <P>A friend of mine purchased Battlefield of the Mind for me <BR>to look through. I think everyone is telling me to give up <BR>clear my head and move on...for some reason I feel if this <BR>happens I will become very spiteful...but maybe this is why <BR>I need to read the book.<P>Alone~ you still with us?? Remember to clear your cookies, <BR>history then change your password. <P>Take care, <P>GFB

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GFB,<BR>Yep, I realize that you never said she actually had an affair, and I was trying to word my letter as carefully as I could. But, you know what?? Even if a person desires another but takes no action on it (as in having sex with each other), it's called an "EA" (the dreaded emotional affair), and in reality it can be more deadly to a marriage than an out and out physical affair. Now, I'm not talking the silly crush-on-a-moviestar type of desire, I'm talking about another person who is on the scene and has captured the mind and/or heart of someone else's spouse. If the spouse also has similar feelings towards the OP (other person), then that is an emotional affair. Like I said in another post, an EA is just one opportunity away from being a PA, or physical affair.<P>As for working on your ability to communicate with her, keep working on it but don't expect miracles too quickly. GFB, for many people, it takes time. Lots of time. The hard part is the waiting for the WS (please allow me to use these abbreviations so that others will be able to follow who's who on this thread too, ok? Thanks!)to come around. Depending on the amount of harbored anger or hurt, this can take a very long time. If you sincerely love her and you indicated several times that you do, then you just have to be patient. Also, there are other steps to Plan A and I can't stress enough that you have to read about it, GFB, to know what to do. <P>You said she will not show the slightest sign of recovery. Please do read up on the "Recovery" section, too, to get a grasp of what Dr. Harley means about recovery. When you EACH start to know, understand and meet each other's emotional needs, then you are in the recovery stage. It is much too soon for her to show signs of recovery right now. IF...and I stress IF...she is infatuated or in love with the other man, then she is still in the fog stage. READ about that, too! It's an important one and I'd read it anyway, if I were you. It just might explain a whole lot of her current behavior to you. Just remember this: people in that fog are NOT in control of their minds or emotions as rational people! They are running on a tremendous high and everything else in their lives that was important to them can fly right out the window. You will see how up becomes down, black becomes white and all kinds of little uglies! You won't get too far with a mate in this fog unless or until they start to come out of it and frankly, your feelings and well being will mean very little to them (if anything at all)while they're in the throes of it. If you don't know what I'm talking about , you really do need to read Dr Harley's description of it (or read through the many posts on this site!)<P>Just know that you are only at the very start of a very long and sometimes stomach-turning road, my friend. It takes more strength and sheer guts than you ever thought you had, but if you really love your mate, you can do this. <P>Keep on posting here, too, GFB. You will find a lot of supportive friends here and I hope you consider me one of them. I know my words sometimes cause emotional anguish, but that's the name of this horrible game called "infidelity." When someone we love suddenly falls out of love with us--for whatever reason--it is like someone killing our very lives as we once knew them. Coming to this site has helped to save my own marriage but it didn't come easily. The fine people here helped me to keep my sanity and they buoyed me and countless otheres up when we needed it the most. <P>YOu won't resurrect a dead horse by kicking it. LOL! But, you may just breathe gentle life back into your love if you take the time to try.<P>God bless and hugs,<BR>Winny<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 02, 2001).]

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Alone-in-CNY,<BR> I've been reading this whole thread for the last hour or so. I have so much empathy for you. Without filling you in on my whole story (yet [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com], I just wanted you to know that I know how you feel, at least somewhat. I'm at a crossroads and we've considered therapy several times. Truthfully, I haven't heard much positive feedback from anyone I've talked to. I guess at some point though, you have nothing to lose. I would really like to hear how things are going with you and how therapy is at this point. You're probably overrun with advice at this point, but therapists are like anything else....there are good ones and bad ones. I'm hoping that if your sessions haven't become more productive, that maybe it's just the wrong match for you. Anyway...just thinking about you. Let us know how you are. <P>

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I am still here. Our anniversary came and went with very little fanfare. We exchanged cards and we gave each other a hug...still felt like there was no deep feeling from my wife. We cancelled our appt on Wed becasue we have been very busy and really felt we had nothing new to share. I am afraid it is starting to slowly turn for me. I do not know how much longer I can continue to exist in this kind of relationship. I watched this "Dr. Phil" on Oprah...he is good just because he doesn't mince words etc. I'd wish I could get us to see him...I feel he could somehow get through and help us get back...or at least get me some answers. Well, maybe alot of his stuff is "made for TV" but at least he seems to provoke some deep thought in the patients.<BR>Regards....<BR>

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Hey. Alone!!<BR>I was so happy this a.m. to see your post. I've been thinking about you and hoping things went well for your anniversary. At least you are still together, and you exhanged a small sign of affection (the hugs). I know it's like receiving an empty box as a gift--the trappings are all there but nothing you hoped for inside. But, that's OK...for now. At least, she is still living with you and you may not see it right now, but that is a start. Just read some of the posts on this site where spouses suddenly packed up and left and your stomach will turn.<P>Have you read the section here on Emotional Needs? If not, I urge you to do so ASAP. Also, if you can, print out the emotional needs questionnaire and if your W will not fill one out (and of course, YOU fill one out, too) then fill it out for her as best as you can guess what her answers would be. What you and GFB seem to be missing here is that there are some NEEDS your spouses have that you have not or are not meeting. It is imperative that you find out what those needs are or you will not go forward. Trust me--it works. We can sit here all day long and read and post but if you don't do the necessary homework, things are going to do one of two things; stay the same or get worse.<P>People fall out of love with their SO's because something is missing in the relationship. Usually, it is some emotional need that goes unfulfilled. It can be something as little as having one's birthday forgotten year after year, or it can be something as big as total neglecting of a mate's feelings, hopes or desires. Private therapy is only as good as the therapist, and if things aren't progressing too well over a reasonable amount of time (say, like3 or 4 months), then perhaps you can find a better therapist. I used to work for a board certified Psychiatrist, and while he was good with some of his patients, others just could NOT relate to him. It's all a part of the human condition--we can't agree with or like everyone we meet. Personally, I think it takes more than therapy to get through this. It takes a LOT of reading, communicating with others such as we do here, and finding a system that makes SENSE, such as Dr. Harley's system.<P>Both you and GFB are completely at sea right now with your emotions and thought processes. You are in that stage that all BS's go through. For each of you, you don't really know what's going on behind the scenes, but you DO know that your wives have changed towards you. My new friends, that is a giant red flag, and if you don't see that at some point, you are going to continue to be 'at sea.' Yes, it's hard to admit or believe that the person you'd die for could possibly turn on you, but it happens. It happens every day to countless numbers of people. The trick here is to make up your mind if you want to save your marriage or not, and if you do want to, then you must dig in and get busy!! I urge you both again to READ all about infidelity, Emotional Needs, Plan A- Plan B and all of the other excellent material Dr. Harley has provided for us here.<P>I never would have believed four months ago that my H and I would be together today. All of a sudden and out of the blue, he was totally hateful towards me, like an alien creature from outer space. NOTHING made any sense, and I was suddenly the biggest enemy in his life. It took me totally by surprise and I was crushed. He threatened to walk out the door many, many times--and although he never left home, he virtually deserted me in our brand new locality (we moved) and left me to my own devices. I am crippled, by the way, with a terrible bone ailment--but even that did not stir his heart, and he refused to help me even ONE inch. I was terrified and actually, my life was in danger. It's hard enough when you're able-bodied, but with a physical handicap, Life can get pretty difficult. Unable to drive a car, I had to find ways to doctors' offices, grocery stores and all the rest. He never, ever treated me like this before and I thought I had fallen off of the Earth and into the Twilight Zone! At one point, I thought about suicide and QUICKLY talked myself out of that!! I am a "survivor", and that nonsense is NOT for me.<P>By the grace of God, I found MB site in March and printed out ALL of the instructional material. I studied it, I devoured it, and I learned. I started looking at my H in a new light, and realized that what I had to do was to get him talking and to LISTEN to him. I listened more and talked less. I found out that I was sadly negelecting some very important EN's, and it's no wonder he turned (briefly, thank God!) to someone else. Through patience and continued effort on my part, he started to come around and today, we are truly in recovery. Plan A works, friends. Right now, it's your best shot. All of the therapy in the world will not help you until you realize that you are partially responsible for the condition your M is in today. MB will help you to discover these things, and much more.<P>God bless....get busy! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<BR>Hugs,<BR>Winny<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 03, 2001).]

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Alone,<BR> I love Dr. Phil, too. Again, I know lack of advice is not your problem, but Dr. Phil has a new book out - I think it's called Life Strategies for Relationships (the word Relationships is in the title). It is a wonderful guide for rebuilding. His first book, Life Strategies, was really good too. And...if you haven't printed out Dr. Harley's material on this site, I agree with Winnie that it's a wonderful place to start. I think the material here could possibly be much more help than a less-than-great therapist might be. Cancelling therapy appointments is not a good sign - I feel like you're running out of strength. I KNOW that feeling. This may not apply to you at all, but depression can zap your strength to accomplish anything. Dr. Harley recommends you FIRST see your doctor to get a RX for antidepressants before you begin the big job of rebuilding. I am a healthcare provider, and I can't tell you how much people benefit from these meds if they're needed. Just a thought...<P>Good luck and keep us posted

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<BR>Hi, almostbroken;<BR>Yours is very good advice, too, re: antidepressants. Because I had some knowledge of their side effects, I declined them and later on, was VERY sorry that I did. At least, I take Flexeril for part of my phyiscal problems now and that is a help, believe it or not.<P>This type of mental/emotional trauma is very taxing on the body and can lead to exhaustion both mentally and physically. I know YOU know this, but perhaps our two guys here may not realize it. Once I got my nerves calmed down with Flexeril (which is really a muscle relaxant), I was better able to face all that I had to do.<P>BTW, welcome to this thread--I'm so happy to see you here! I can't explain it, but I am truly worried about both GFB and Alone, probably because the memory of that emotional anguish is still so fresh in my mind. I was also very resistant to the idea that there might be someone else in the background, and when I found out for sure, the shock of it nearly killed me. I hate to see this happen to others and will do whatever I can to lend a hand.<P>God bless!<BR>Hugs,<BR>Winny<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 03, 2001).]

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"Just know that you are only at the very start of a very long and sometimes stomach-turning road, my friend. It takes more strength and sheer guts than you ever thought you had, but if you really love your mate, you can do this."<P>Winny, you couldn't be more correct with the above <BR>statement. I don't know where i'll find this inner strength. As for taking a toll emotionally and physically, I've lost 12 lbs since she laid the news on me(1 month). I'm not into taking anything orally for depression, I have numerous applications in for police officer jobs...I'm just going to stick with my Kava Kava herbal remedy, it seems to help. Our mutual friends have been pushing religion and there is no time like the present to start believing. I'm <BR>not sure if I know how. I've been reading a new book, The Battlefield in the Mind (mostly explains Bible scriptures and how to think positive). The title makes me feel like a psychopath but the words inside seem to hold value and my interest. The book stresses if we want the Lord's help, we just have to ask. <P>I know I touched base on this, but how do I gain her interest again? Every time I go to hug her, kiss or even hold her hand she pulls further away. I feel disgusting due to her rejection. When I confront her she says her feelings have changed. In my mind we've just become roommates. My <BR>communication skills may have improved but it always winds up with me whining or angry due to her responses.. I think I'm in denial!!!<P>As for the OM issue. I trust her and I don't I guess. For some reason I can't stop bringing it up to her but I want so bad for my immature mind to stop being spiteful concerning the issue. Yesterday i went to the farm/barn and yes he was there though nothing was exchanged between us, not even a <BR>hello...this is funny because I used to clown around with him prior to this issue. UGH, I can't continue on this topic.<P>Almostbroken~Thanks for joining the board, I haven't quite figured out if all of us consoling each other is helping or hurting..i.e., giving us ammunition, readying for the next battle. This is my only place for console aside from the counselor, whom I'm sure I'll want to kill and hug at times..<P>Alone~I was going to see if you'd like to get together for lunch sometime. I don't quite know what good it'll do except we would understand each other and neither of us are therapists...sometimes I guess it takes a normal, well depressed (LOL) person to talk to. I live close to Port Jervis, and am 1.5 hrs from Newburgh and Monticello. I pretty much live where PA/NY/NJ all connect. Let me <BR>know what your thoughts are. My e-mail address is m_jg_2001@yahoo.com.<P>Winny, Almostbroken, feel free to use my e-mail address though I would like to keep my emphasis within this website <P>GFB<P>

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Dear Alone<BR>I have been struggling with a withdrawing spouse for four years. The withdrawal doesn't involve any affairs, other than her total pre-occupation with professional school. She'll be done and earning a bit of money in 9 mos. When men go into this profession, they call medical school, "the mistress." Now, I understand why.<BR>Before getting into school, she moved 2,000 miles away for a job transfer--I knew it would be a challenge. After a very weird year I moved her "back" to school, 200 miles away. Then, the truth came out. She had been dissatisfied about a lot of stuff for a very LONG time, but couldn't say it<P>I have come to the opinion that far too many men get aggressive during conflict and far too many women just withdraw. Of course, neither is a loving response. But, just what is this downward spiral and how do you get out of it without the always fatal mistake of continuing to blame each other?<P>Harley helped a lot, but I read many others, including Michele Wiener Davis (Divorcebusting). They both provide a good structure to understand the deterioration--and how to plan to improve things. The problem is that the wife doesn't like either one!<P>So, I found John Gottman at the Gottman Institute at the University of Washington. Wonderful research!<P>His new 2001 book, Relationship Cure does a wonderful job of explaining why some couples do such a good job of working through disagreements and how far too many are at each others throats over the same items. <P>I think there are still some excerpts of his work at smartmarriages.com as well as the website for Gottman institute.<P>You will enjoy reading about his "Love Lab" and how they analyzed the hundreds of couples that they observed.<P>As I read the book, I felt so badly regarding how poorly we socialize boys--and don't do that much better with girls, I guess. Anyway, after you read about Gottman's concept of "bidding" and the choices that we all have to turn toward, turn away, or turn against--the deterioration or preservation of marriage makes a lot more sense.<P>I'm still struggling with marital therapy, though. The lack of structure and the lack of a plan devalue the process, for me.<P>Good luck<P>r

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goinforbroke:<BR><B> I know I touched base on this, but how do I gain her interest again? Every time I go to hug her, kiss or even hold her hand she pulls further away. I feel disgusting due to her rejection. When I confront her she says her feelings have changed. In my mind we've just become roommates. My <BR>communication skills may have improved but it always winds up with me whining or angry due to her responses.. I think I'm in denial!!!<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi, GFB,<BR>I know EXACTLY what you feel like, GFB. My H pulled away from me so strongly, suddenly, and with such venom that I swear to Holy God, I thought that we were going to split up. <P>Let's agree for a few minutes that your W is not in love with this other man.Well, something has happened inside of her that has changed her feelings towards you. Deep anger, or resentment, perhaps? Possibly, fear. Whatever the case, she is not physically repsonsive to you.<P>Here are two things I've been concentrating on with my own marriage, and they worked wonders for me. One, I stopped mentioning ALL references to the other person. Two, I looked for an 'open door' with my H and found one. I discovered that given an opportunity, he would open up to me and tell me all about his trials and tribulations on his new job. The 'old me' would offer advice or constructive criticism, and remembering that that seemed to drive him nuts, I just kept my mouth shut. I'd nod my head, offer little comments such as, "Oh, really?", or "And how did that make you feel?", or "I bet that made you feel pretty awful." Before long, he was REALLY opening up to me, going way beyond the work experience. Then, he started telling me about things I'd done or said in the past and how they hurt him, or upset him, and so on. AGAIN, I'd just listen--and did not make any disrespectful judgements (that's a Dr. Harle-ism!)--and soon, we were really communicating. Once he realized that I was not going to attack him or his feelings, thoughts, or beliefs (no matter how eroneous I mave have felt they were), the rest was easy.<P>Now, mind you, all the while this was happening, he would NOT even touch my hand or arm, let alone have sex with me. Then, one night he invited me to touch him and I did so, with lots of mixed emotions. The Plan A thing was always in my mind, and I truly DID want to touch him, but a part of me was hurt, angry, suspicious and all that ugly kind of thing. I decided to use this opportunity as another open door, and believe it or not, this went on for MONTHS. No sign whatsoever of affection or love from him TO me, but I was allowed to touch him. Plan A or bust, I thought! I perservered. <P>This weekend, it happened. It was the first time he had touched me and really made love to me in 13 months, and I was very pleasantly surprised, to say the least. <P>What is notable is that in the time previous to this w/e, I learned to NOT ask, or beg, or show how needy I was for his affection. All I did was what I was "invited" to do--which means for quite few months, NOTHING--and I did it with my heart and deep love for him. Somewhere along the way, he woke up and realized that I HAD FEELINGS, TOO. He started to get worried, right down to expresing his innermost fear that I might stray due to his lack of affection. This is called 'coming out of the fog', and it is the beginning of the withdrawal stage from the OP. After months of agony, I was suddenly starting to truly hope again. Plan A started to get easier and easier.<P>GFB, I am truly so sorry that you are going through his (and Alone, you, too). BUT, I am here to tell you that Plan A WORKS. I read about it working for other couples and thought "well, it can't possibly work for me", but it did. I learned the hard way that when a mate pulls away, no matter how much it may hurt you, right or wrong, you have to respect their feelings and not inundate them with panicky questions, or pleas for intimacy. When your W is ready, she will open back up to you--but she won't do that until she is ready. Pressuring her to be intimate in any way with you will only make her pull back even further.<P>I don't know how it is for a man, but a woman's sexual desire is directly proportionate to the way she feels about herself and the way her lover makes her feel about herself. If she is struggling with inner issues about her likes, dislikes, tastes, hopes, dreams, wants or needs, she will not give herself to her man until she works these things out. You must help her to find out what it is that is blocking her. And, you may have to accept the fact that her feelings for you may never come back, too. (Ouch..I know that hurts, but, it's one reality that may be a possibility). Before you give up or throw in the towel, give her a good chance to discover and then share with YOU what is bothering her. I guarantee she is upset or bothered by something and it concerns you. For instance,you might be a threat to her supposed 'happiness' with the other man, assuming she is in love with him. See what I mean? Evenif she has not let him touch her but only wishes he would or could, you represent a blockage, and that could make her very, very angry and bitter. I know....it happened to me in my first marriage, and my ex-H was the LAST person on earth I'd let be intimate with me once my EA was underway.<P>Get her talking to you, GFB. And start reading all you can on this site, to, ok??<P>Good luck, and I wish you a better week ahead...<BR>Winny<P><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 06, 2001).]

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Winny,<BR> I've already visited the fact of my W may never finding a place for me in her heart again, and it is a rude awakening. Last night she went to the race track and assisted the OM with his horse there, then arrived home after midnight which isn't uncommon and I refrained from any mentioning of the time she spent out of the house. I kept telling myself it was a career enhancing evening, trying to remain positive. She is in a business/coming into the business and the OM is the only person who helps her out in any way, shows her the ropes so to say. It just rubs me wrong, maybe I'm too controlling. Prior to her new profession I knew everything she did and she knew everything I did. This lead to poor <BR>communications, neither of us had separate relationships with friends...well she certainly does now. I sit home dwelling in fear and denial while she goes places with other people..I have to learn to accept it, though when we first began dating she would not have any part of this, I became used to it.<P>Similar to your H inviting you to touch him (i think I know what you mean) I offer this to my W (for me to touch her), sometimes I'm privileged to massage her from head to toe (which is wonderful) and sometimes I just get to look at her back in bed. For a man intimacy is extremely physical, we could pissed at the world one moment and deep into sex the next. We're odd creatures sometimes lacking logical thought. My wife is just about finished with school, 16 cram credits for her degree...guess what her empasis/major was...yep, Psychology. So see what I'm going up against???<P>Each evening I've gone to bed listening and feeling my heart pump as hard as it ever has, my mind as confused as it will ever be and my feelings a mixed than ever expected. I don't expect her to worry if I'll stray somewhere to find intamacy, she has pretty much said "do what you have to do." <P>I have backed off her, began listening more completely to her and also began to think what I am thinking about...I hope this week keeps me positive.<P>Where are the Plan A and B areas??<P>Thanks for the hugs!<BR>GFB

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goinforbroke:<BR><B>Each evening I've gone to bed listening and feeling my heart pump as hard as it ever has, my mind as confused as it will ever be and my feelings a mixed than ever expected. I don't expect her to worry if I'll stray somewhere to find intamacy, she has pretty much said "do what you have to do." <P><BR>Thanks for the hugs!<BR>GFB</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>GFB,<BR>You're very welcome! It's so good to get encouragement, and just as wonderful to give it!<P>As for Plan A, Plan B...go back to the main forums page and scroll down the list (it's towards the bottom of the pg.) until you see the article listed there for Plan A- Plan B. Or, cheat a little and go to this link directly: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html</A> <P>GFB, take heart. My H told me, too, in so many words that he didn't care if I had to "do what I had to do" re: personal or other satisfaction. This was while he was in the middle of that cursed fog, and like I said before, statements like that are VERY common while one is in the fog. Lots of things they say make NO concrete sense at all, and are usually 180 degrees opposite of what they would normally say or feel. As they come to terms one way or the other with the other person, they may start to come out of the fog. At that point they are beginning to emotionally separate themselves from the OP, and that stage is called withdrawal. A gradual return to sanity can be observed, and if you do the Plan A correctly, believe it or not, true recovery can happen. To recap,just because your W said this awful thing to you, don't take it to heart. It's not really HER talking, it's the present state of her emotions which Dr. Harley has very adequately described as "the fog."<P>I have a question for you, if that's OK. I was just wondering what your relationship was like with her before she became distant with you. At any time, did you get the feeing that things were not well--or, put another way, did she ever indicate to you that she was unhappy with you? Were you two close? Without going into personal details, was your sex life good for the both of you?(I mean, did she have any long standing complaints?) OK, that's a couple of questions! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] One more question: did this change in her seem to come from out of the blue, or were things pretty bad to start with? Your answer will reveal a lot of what might be going on in the present, GFB. Of course, if I am prying where I shouldn't, please forgive me. But, that is what this board is so useful for, the exchange of ideas and information.<P>Have a good day....take a few deep breaths and please realize all is NOT necessarily lost!<BR>Hugs again,<BR>winny<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 06, 2001).]

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Well to answer your questions briefly...<BR>Over the past year we bought a home, a race horse, a new $$$truck, car...Now the home is 1.5 hrs from work for me and 1 hr for her. I only work every three days and she works every day, races once a week(though now she is helping other people...she may be gone three nights a week, so add that to <BR>my 2 work days and we have a fat goose egg for days spent together, our schedules aren't always this bad , just when it counts the most, LOL) and she has a hell of a semester of college. So I'd say we were close due to all the decisions we made together and our devotion to each other during those busy times. Now I'm awaiting the end of the semster, Aug 27 to see if things lighten up for her. <P>She had mentioned that we never sit together, or could go through a meal without speaking...though if she said "We never sit together anymore and I feel like I need more from you" I would've taken thing differently instead of "You never sit with me!" <P>Our sex life was great up to the last yr when things got busy sex got lost, I think. Now I feel like less of a man, unattractive and like I have to compete to win her courtship again.(I also think I'm attempting to change myself into the person i think she wants, i.e., OM. This is bad...and yes this did come out of the blue, though not without me asking what's wrong a hundred times(be careful for what you ask!!!)<BR>Now she is totally distant... I feel so combative lately, but I attempt to maintain composure. Advice from battlefield of the mind, look at things in a positive perspective...she went to the race track to increase her knowledge and network...yeah that's it...*laugh* That was probably what she did but thinking that way takes years of practice and forces the mind into denial. Well, Wifey should be home <BR>any minute so I'll cut this short and simmer down...Kava Kave time.<P>GFB

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GFB, <P>From the way you describe it, your marriage sounds a lot like it was an upwardly-mobile, thriving relationship. At least, it sounds like the two of you were making some good decisions together and accomplished quite a bit. Along the way, just as in my own case, the two of you lost touch with each other as you got busier and more involved with career and outside interests, including schooling for your wife. You don't mention children, so I assume there aren't any. <P>Our marriages were a lot alike in some ways, GFB. My H is a workaholic and a very tenderhearted person who literally supported three other families besides our own. We had a very successful sideline computer business that branched out into a few areas, including real estate. Between my outside interests which included being a professional musician, and his, a professional martial artist, we eventually nearly lost each other when a real crisis came along (my illness). The point is, the more we became involved with others and other interests, the less time and energy we had for ourselves, and soon a gulf opened up as wide as the Grand Canyon. All it took was one bad crisis for us, and there was nothing left in our Love Banks to sustain us. (Read Dr. Harley's article on Love Busters, too)<P>Sooner or later, the scales tip. One can only ignore for just so long the personal feelings and side of life that every human being experiences and desires. Yours is such a classic setup for an outside affair, if I've ever heard of one. Just as in my own situation, the two of you have grown apart and one day, "out of the blue," someone caught your W's attention and that personal side of life sprang into gear. This is not to say she is having an affair, but she does show all of the signs of being interested in someone else. One of the first clues is the physical drawing away, the denying of sex or physical contact (such as spurned hugs or kisses, or very lukewarm hugs/kisses in return). That is a very potent red flag, GFB. It doesn't mean she had or is having sex with someone else, but it could very well mean she desires it and being legally bound to YOU, resents not being a free agent to act upon those desires. This was my H's problem: he would not actually do the deed, but I'm sure he wanted to very, very much. I became the block, the one who stood in his way, and for that he resented me very badly. Add into the mix the other person, who has desires of his or her own, and there they are, pitching away for all they're worth. It's no wonder people do have affairs. Being unfulfilled personally, many respond to attention from another source. <P>You are armed to the teeth with books and info (as you've mentioned in previous posts), and that's good. But, pick and choose the system or systems you'd like to work with and go from there. I personally recommend Dr. Harley's system, GFB, because it makes such good sense on many levels. Your wife clearly has needs that were and/or are NOT being met by you, just as much as you have needs that are not being met by her. Like I said before, you need to dig in now, and get to work. Find out what her needs are (or were), and start Plan A'ing ASAP. <P>Remember that old saw that went something like this: "If things were good in the home, he (or she) wouldn't have looked elsewhere" ? Something went lacking between the two of you, but it is not too late to discover what it was and to work on it together. One of you has to start, so it might as well be you. She is not receptive to anything you have to say on the topic right now, anyway, so what have you got to lose??<P>If you need to vent or talk, lots of us are here for you. Keep on reading, trying, posting, and most of all, praying. God will listen and He will help you, if you ask Him. Just be open to new ideas and concepts and use prayer to guide you along the way.<P>Have a great day, now, ok??<BR>Hugs and prayers,<BR>Winny [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 07, 2001).]

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Win, <BR>My wife and I had a thriving relationship minus the children, we spoke of having children last yr but figured it wasn't the best time, when really it was. Now I may never have th opportunity to create life with my W...back to the topic, so according to myself our relationship was good (little busy), my W on the other hand must have thought something completely different. I attempt to explore why we <BR>did so much together if our relationship was so bad but I didn't/don't get far. When I ask her she says "people change." (Sure with some persuasion) Our short list of accomplishments I wrote/explained in my last post is just the tip of the iceberg...<P>My mind is split in many different directions, one part wants to remain in this relationship, another says there are bigger and better fish out there, another part is having a nervous breakdown, and the other keeps directing my jaw to cinch down on my tongue...."Your wife clearly has needs that were and/or are NOT being met by you." This is true as of now, though I'm trying until I'm blue in the face, she will not let me in! Whether I'm quite, angry, supportive, loving or all the above she is not receptive nor does she want to be.<P>Last night W had a one on one with the counselor, I asked her how it went she said "good"...that was all. The funny thing was, i just finished cleaning the house and when she came home she began to "straighten things up again" and I knew something was bothering her??? I' comfortable never <BR>having that info disclosed. LOL<P>I read through the plan A-B, my W has somewhat convinced me she is not involved with the OM (and according to statistics, the significant other never finds out anyway) and i know for a fact if presented with Plan A-B she'll fly off the handle. As of right now it's impossible for her to not see this person. They don't work in a factory where she can be relocated, all of our horses are right next to each other with no place else to go. So maybe I'll just try to accept what she is telling me not what I perceive. Though I'll make an attempt to visit the farm on Saturday morning just to make my presence known to all the young swinging you know whats...When determined(and upset), I let my Law Enforcement mentality kick in, observe, collect and intimidate by not doing anything. Most of the people at the farm, or in the race horse business are crooked, foul mouthed pigs who wouldn't think twice to screw someone's significant other. My wife has told she has witnessed it on many occasions... <P>Let me get to the errands, sorry I didn't elaborate much, and my post seems a bit out of organization. I'm still digesting you third paragraph and my mind is tad off track.....regarding venting steam, I let a mutual friend of our listen to that...it gets too steamy for the board.<P>I noticed you mentioned were disabled from an illness, how and from what?<BR>What a hot couple of days it's been???<P>GFB<p>[This message has been edited by Goinforbroke (edited August 08, 2001).]

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GFB,<BR>I had a feeling that third paragraph in my last post was a little confusing! That's what happens when I sit down and contact this board before 9 a.m.! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Anyway, what I meant was, if she felt the two of you were growing apart and didn't know enough to approach you about it before it hit the melt-down stage, and if the two of you had an almost no sex life for the past year, then that doesn't mean the inner urge for sex died for all time. Sooner or later, it rises to the surface and sometimes a perfect stranger can cause it to happen. Or, a good friend...or, a work partner...or, etc. etc. The point is that when two married people grow apart for whatever reason, it's never good. Something is bound to happen, much like the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. People sometimes bury their inner feelings in a variety of ways: alcohol, drugs, sex, even over $pending. Like a pot slowly simmering to a boil, eventually something's gotta give. <P>Now, about that Plan A-Plan B thing. You made me giggle when I read what you wrote! You don't TELL her you're going to Plan A, you just do it. Since she is totally unreceptive to you right now, the last thing you'd want to do is to tell her about Plan A. I like what you said about your law enforcement experience behavior. Quiet, observing, not creating a 'fuss', that's a good plan. That AND Plan A, that is. The more you talk about your pain with her right now, and the more of an issue you make out of it, the more she will pull away. Hey..IF (and it's just an 'if') she has feelings for this other man, down deep she feels a bit guilty. Maybe a LOT guilty. If you try to talk about it to her, you only help that guilt to surface again and again, and create a negative atmosphere for her. Just let the topic be for now with her, and Plan A your butt off! <P>If she is NOT recpetive to your efforts right now, don't get discouraged. Like I said before, it takes time. She will notice a difference in YOU, and that may get her attention. <P>When I first started Plan A w/my H, he had (and still has)NO idea about MB, Plan Anything, etc. I just very quietly and patiently changed the way I approached him. I stopped being combative, I tried to encourage him to tell me what he was feeling. I never PUSHED him to talk, I just threw out the invitation time and again. Things went on for about 2 months with him still in his shell, his heart totally hardened towards me, and very uncommunicative, much like your W. I thought I'd lose my mind!! I lost over 20 pounds, lost countless hours of sleep and all the rest. Then, after about 2 months, he started really talking with me--not yelling, accusing, blaming, all of that silly garbage that he spouted off in the previous 2 months--but really TALKING with me. And, the more he talked, the more I listened. What I found out rocked my world, but they were things I needed to hear. Clearly, I had not been meeting quite a few of his greatest emotional needs for a good many years, and they were things he tried to tell me about but I was listening with the wrong set of ears. I started to listen to him more proactively, as if I were in his shoes, and I learned that arguing was never the way to go. I just let him get it all out without fear of disrespectful judgement--and today, a full five months since I started Plan A, he has come back to me. We actually made love for the first time in a year last weekend. See my grin?! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Did I get to learn all of the "details" of his alleged EA? No. However, I learned the most important thing wasn't what he did with someone else, but what we do together, now, today, from this point forward.<P>Sorry, I know this is super long, but GFB, if things are meant to work out for you and your W, Plan A is truly your best shot. Just be real patient and keep on reading Dr. Harley's info here. Personally, I plan to continue with Plan A for life, because it makes so much good sense. It has changed ME as a person and I think for the better. <P>OK..I better stop now, or you'll never get to read it all!! Hang in there...I'm praying for you!<BR>Hugs,<BR>Winny<P>PS<BR>I have a rare bone disease that imitates bone cancer. My bones and joints are dying, and some of them have been replaced; others can't be replaced. Mine is a painful existance, but it's doable. It's only made me stronger, and today, I run a world-wide support group for this disese. thanks for asking! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 08, 2001).]

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Winny, <BR>My W and I have a good friend (trusted fellow horsemen) whose wife has Rheumatoid Arthritis, sounds similar to your issue, we can relate to what you're feeling. My W helps him out on Sundays, sometimes, so he doesn't have to come in, just spends the day with his wife. What is your group called, maybe I'll pass it on, that's if I ever get invited to my wife's place of work (funny it's "our" family <BR>business, but I can't go) LOL.<P>Regarding your second para...Thinking of her thinking of someone else..UGH. That is all!<BR>Now, I think I've been attempting Plan A, but you know that person who just kept kicking your chair in school?? Eventually you had to say something. That is how I feel each time she doesn't hold my hand or tell me she loves me or doesn't call or look at me with any admiration in her eyes...Tonight we went to the movies, I felt totally awkward and basically blew $14.00, except I spent time with her, and that's all that counted?! <P>If an EA has been considered by her, I'm sure to never know unless she comes right out and says it. I'm not sure if I could deal with it either without some aggression twds the OM even though it was partially my fault, I'll blame him completely. The last time I was at the farm, as I posted earlier her "friend" totally ignored me...the thing that got my goat was, he followed me from the highway to the farm, 10 minute drive, I was so enraged maybe he read me and choose flight over fight, but his damn dog pooped right out side my car door, as i was getting out, LOL, she was trying to tell me something...We're better off that way I guess?? Though I feel as if I have to make my presence known, make people think, don't "talk" bad about GFB's wife, he'll chew your head off. Though I would like to avoid don't "go near" GFB's wife. Well I'll back off that topic with her, Monday I get to one on one with the counselor. I pray she doesn't tell me, my wife cheated.<P>I'm not very religious but I'm starting to read and have faith, hoping to catch on. Friends of our are Christians, another couple are Protestant, I was born catholic..where to start???? <BR>Coincidence?? I was out running yesterday and a thunder cloud just blew over (in the Battlefield book, it quotes a Bible verse, Matthew 14:24-32??) I said "bring it on I'll walk on the water" (I hope I spoke of faith) then it started to rain (I was a mile out but could've made it home quickly via short cut) someone was trying to get me to quit, I pushed on and the rain stopped until the second I walked <BR>through the door. My entire route completed, it was very coincidental. <P>I'll let you go, it's funny our lives revolve around the horse business, here I am pouring my heart out to <BR>"Winny." Not calling you a horse, it's just the sound our horses make. Coincidence?<BR>My posts' seem to get more unorganized...I'l have to place more thought prior to responding.<P>GFB<BR>Have you ever gone for broke?

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GFB,<BR> [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] !! I loved the "Winny" thing!! We could also say, "out of the horse's mouth!" LOL! I happen to adore horses, by the way, and there is a full stable on the property behind me, where they house about a dozen horses. One of my fav paststimes these days is to go sit under the oak tree out back and watch these lovely creatures. <P>OK...back to business! Taking her to the movies was a HUGE plus, or a 'love deposit' in your love bank, G. (first name basis now! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]) That she went with you is a very good sign, believe it or not. My H resented being in the same building with me (our home included) for those first few months, so count yourself very fortunate.<P>I know about the wanting to explode during the Plan A phase. Remember, I told you itwas rough?? "Rough" isn't a strong enough word, but I can't think of one any stronger right now. But, this is OK. We are tough--we can DO this, just keep that thought in your mind.<P>As for faith, you only need faith as small as a mustard seed and God will do the rest. I love the way He sends signs, like the one you experienced!! So many amazing "coincidences" have happened to me during this walk through hell, that I have no choice but to give credit to God. To me, it PROVES He is real, and He is listening. You ae NOT alone in this once you invite Him in to help you. Keep that thought in mind, too, ok?<P>As for did our spouses or didn't they have an affair: I found out that while it can be devastating, it is NOT the end of the world. I chose to look at it as an opportunity to repair an ailing marriage, and to put wrongs right. Yeah, I know..thoughts of our loved ones with someone else are awful, BUT..they will not kill you. To focus on those thoughts does nothing but damage to the spirit, so don't focus on them. Focus on TODAY, and what you can achieve with your mate in the future. And, by all means focus on your love for your wife and it will shine through to her. <P>Don't worry about your visit with the counselor. Use the time to get rid of your worst feelings and thoughts, and let God handle it from there. He'll let you know what He wants you to know when you are ready to handle it. <P>You sound more up today than before, and this makes me smile! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] Just keep that forward momentum going--and the next time you visit the barn, bring a few plastic bags with you in case doggie decides to give you another present! Then, return it to the doggie's owner, saying "thanks but no thanks, I've had enough s*** to last me a lifetime!" (just teasing!!)<P>Hugs and smiles,<BR>Winny<P><BR>PS...<BR>Yep! Went for broke when I chose to do Plan A. Before I found out about it, I wanted to throw my H out on his ear!! Then, I figured, why not? things were bad enough as they were, so what could it hurt? So, I "went for broke" and tried it--thank God! W.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 09, 2001).]

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Whoops! Board's over energetic Today! hope I got rid of the double post now.<P>While I'm at it and back here again, how are YOU doing, Alone?? Please let us know...W.<p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 09, 2001).]

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Win,<BR>All I can say about yesterday is "love buster/withdrawals," <BR>one after another. You'd think after emotionally torturing <BR>ourselves, we'd learn not to do it anymore. Men are just <BR>thick headed! Yesterday was take two steps fwd and around <BR>ten back and today I'm lucky enough to be sitting in a room <BR>for 24hrs stewing over my thoughts....I'm gong cold turkey <BR>with plan A today, I'll just keep my feelings bent up or <BR>let my dogs hear me sulk. For some reason I keep reverting <BR>back to the OM thing. Every time we're together it has to <BR>come up...he's just a major part of her life at work I <BR>guess and I'm really jealous of the time they spend <BR>together at work...but I have to accept it, I work/interact <BR>with people also. Like I said before it's much easier to <BR>place blame on someone else due to my clouded <BR>misunderstanding of her feelings. Tomorrow I have the <BR>opportunity to stop by her "office," where we both feel <BR>high tension, so it has become an unpleasant place for me <BR>but I have an interest there. I promised myself I wouldn't <BR>say anything disrespectful to my W or to him...but then the <BR>devil popped up and I thought about telling the OM he was <BR>taking my wife without even knowing it...then I envisioned <BR>something bad happening...I'll just stick with Plan A. <P>"As for faith, you only need faith as small as a mustard <BR>seed and God will do the rest." So I sat down last night <BR>with my dog Luke and decided to read something from Luke, <BR>guess what my eyes found first??? Just what you wrote...I <BR>aced her to attend Church with me, we'll see. Our friends <BR>are pushing the Christian route, any suggestions? All I <BR>know is, lets get her feeling like we can resolve "us." <BR>She is basically sitting around waiting for her feelings to <BR>change, we both know that isn't the way it's going to <BR>happen.....Plan A, tough, must get through, ugh! <P>Have a great day, bring a carrot down to your horse friends.<BR>GFB

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Hiya, GFB!<P>Got a quick question for you: who brings up the OM's name first...and in what context? I am guessing it is your W, and of course it plucks your nerves! But..seeing as how he is a part of your business, I'm sure his name does come up now and then. The key here is HOW is he mentioned. Does she go on, non-stop, about him? Or is it just a quick reference to something concerning the horses or business? If she goes on non-stop, or in any way other than professional, this would be a good chance to look at her with all the love you for her you can muster up in your eyes, and say something like, "Hon, I'm sorry, but everytime you go on about X like this, it really hurts me. Maybe you are not doing it intentionally, but it hurts me just the same." Then, keep quiet. See what she says or what her reaction is. You see, you are telling her how her actions make you feel, without accusing her of anything (except poor judgement in considering your feelings). If she has a heart at all, and I'm sure she does, this will touch her. You see, women communicate best by talking about feelings. Men are better at factual, problem-solving talk. But, when you start gently guiding her into thinkging about, and talking about, feelings (yours included), this is sure to get a response. Believe it or not, it works the other way around, too! I tried this technique on my H and it worked wonders. You'd be surprised how sometimes a negative like this (talk concening the OM) can be turned around to create an opening..that open door I was talking about in another post. <P>As for Christian ethics, just keep in mind that Jesus had ONE command only, to love one another as He loves us. Your heart is already filled with love for your W, so please do try to pray for a release from the anger, jealousy and hatred you feel for the OM. What you feel towards him is only natural, but Jesus prefers that we pray for these other persons. That does NOT mean to let them walk all over us or abuse our marriages or situations. But, it does mean to not do anything in haste or anger towards them--pray about this to God, and He will show you how to act. As hard as it is for us to beleive this sometimes, remember that they are God's children, too, and He loves them just as much as He loves us. Just pray for them (as in, "Lord, please! Turn this sinner around!") and leave them up to God. Concentrate on love for your W, and love for yourself and you will be doing just what Jesus asked.<P>Exactly 24 hours after I prayed with all of my strength and soul to God to show me the truth, I found a letter written by the OW to my husband. This, after about 3 months of sheer torture, and suffering the most hateful behavior on my H's part that anyone could ever endure. All it proved was that 'someone' was in love with my H, and I had the proof in black and white, right in my hands. My first ANGRY thought was to contact her and literally rip her throat out! (figuratively speaking..sort of). But, something made me do nothing towards her. Something told me that if I went to her and let her know what I found out, she would then hold all of the cards and have power over me. After coming to this site and reading countless letters on this, I saw that I was exactly right in holding off. I'm going to continue at some other time telling you more about how I solved my problem, but right now, this letter is already longer than I anticipated! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Just go to the barn or stable, whichever you call it, and let your LOVE for your W shine in your eyes. Treat the OM like exactly what is he: an employee. No better, no worse. <P>A while back, someone told me to always behave like a duck. Remain cool and unruffled on the surface, but paddle like hell underneath! You can do this, GFB! Your Christian friends and I are all praying for you and your situation, and God WILL answer! (btw, I am also Christian).<P>Hugs and prayers,<BR>Winny [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Thanks for the tip! Carrots are good, and they seem to like apples, too! What's your opinion on giving them sugar cubes? I haven't done this yet bec. I'm not sure it's so good for them. W.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 10, 2001).]

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Winny,<BR>Who brings up the OM?? Well it's a combination, I ask her why she spends all day at the office, she responds with "I'm cleaning stuff up," well what's she meant to say and finally has said, she's helping him clean stuff up and exercise horses. Which is fine, but she lied about what she was doing in the first place...another instance(which has become a regular) he has a busy evening on Saturday at the track and he asked her to help him....so now she'll be out all day, first at work with him then at the track with him and so on. Now mind you she begins her day at the office around 7am, the racing begins around 8-9pm. There is a mess of preparation, commuting and it does get hectic with back to back races, but who knows what else knows what going on. It's the amount of time she is spending with him that doesn't add up...So it's merely myself that keeps bringing him up in a bad tone, she only speaks of work when referring to him. W just keeps insisting it's not anyone else, her feelings have just changed so much for me. It's totally confusing to the male perspective I guess??<BR>I've read about Judgment in my Battlefield book, who are we to judge?? So I need to stop that also, Saturday will just be a brief encounter between her and due to our tension(W and I). I'll get to pet my horse and tell him he's doing so well, hop in the truck and head out...the OM will not even think twice about me being there or leaving early, so maybe nothing is going on....at least in his mind. I'll just chalk up today (Friday) and tomorrow as non withdrawal days due to the lack of interaction between us.<P>Wife and I used to do everything together, it's very hard finding something to do without her...we don't have many friends in town either(newbies). Besides everyone else has a normal job. I work 24 hour shifts and have off for three days...Their is enough time in each day to build up a head of steam, and no way to vent it.<P>About the carrots or apples or sugar cubes...they're all good for the horses, but in moderation. Have you ever eaten a bag of baby carrots...much abdominal pain. You can treat horses to "Whinny's Cookies," I can't remember where the source is but if you search on the net for horse cookies you'll find some. If really want to have some fun, grab a mineral block(salt block), it's neat watching the horses bite and lick it, but you have to hold it, experience their power and see the emotion and determination in their eyes...you can do this also by holding the carrot, make them bite off the piece they want.<P>Rain, Rain go away....and take the heat with ya.<BR>GFB

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GFB,<BR>I hope you're not getting sick of hearing from me by now <grin!>, but I have another question for you. Before Mr. X came on the scene, how did you and your W manage or handle the horse race business? I mean, did the two of you handle all of the details together, or is this a new venture and one that you were not in on from the start? <P>I'm just wondering if this whole thing is new to the two of you (the horse, the racing end of things, etc.) or is this something you both did together before X came along.<P>You know what's odd?? My H and I are also "newbies" to our new city, having moved here last Fall. It has been torturous slow-going for me to get out and make new friends, and he is so bogged down with his job (computer systems) that it takes him away from me 6 out of 7 days a week. I know JUST what you mean about too much time alone, it purely stinks! It's a wonder that neither you nor I have "looked elsewhere"! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] I tell ya, the thought crossed my mind, but only for a brief instant. Then, I snapped out of it and realized that I love my H too much to ever hurt him like this. <P>As for your W denying any attachment to Mr X, please remember that almost 99.9% of WS's lie. It's a proven fact and seems to be a part of the whole scenario. To this very DAY, my H denies any emotional attachment whatsoever to Mrs X, but that is just being in denial. (nice word for "lie") <P>I guess some things in life are so intrinsically wrong that the "doer" of the deed (infidelity) cannot and will not own up to it. It would be too painful for the WS to face the truth him/herself. For the truth is that ALL affairs are built on lies and deceit, be they emotional A's or PA's.<P>Thanks for the advice on the horse snacks! I'm going to go look up the recipe for the cookies on the web. <P>Stay strong...stay focused!<BR>Hugs...<BR>Winny

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GFB.<P>I almost forgot...again! If you would like the URL for my support group's web site, please give me your email address and I'll send it to you. For privacy reasons, I choose to not post it here, but will send it to you if you ask me to.<P>bye again!<BR>W.

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Win, Funny you should ask, "we" did everything together, including caring for the horses. But at the same we were in another section of the farm...now we're in a new barn...the only one left, smack next the OM. My W also had a second job, "we" decided it be best for her to pursue this business with a full head of steam. In turn this is her only time away from me, which we all need time away, I think they call it down time. <P>Her mother just says happy couples don't "look," unhappy ones do(divorce attorney, who loves me like her own son)...Her mother isn't taking sides but she thinks maybe we weren't made for each other and we could only be happy apart, who knows at this point. All of our pictures tell a different tale! I'm focusing on Plan A for the next ??? how long. I guess my W telling herself this relationship isn't right and her mother and friends telling her the same is her motivation twds separation. She is one of those people who is very hard to convince, but once she is...she is!<P>My E-mail addy is m_jg_2001@yahoo.com (note the underscore_)<BR>Thanks for replying again, gotta get back to the box!<BR>G

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Hi, GFB<BR>So, how did it go on Saturday? Hopefully it wasn't too bad for you, but I can imagine how you must have felt.<P>I feel bad for you, G. It sounds as if your W has a lot of people convinced that she is unhappy in your marriage and they are buying into it. As for your MIL, her answer sounds very cut and dry, and maybe she knows more than she is telling you. Just a thought, there. <P>All you can do at this point is just keep on Plan A'ing. I KNOW how hard it is! I stll have bad days, too, when I wonder if I'm doing the right thing. My H has stepped all over my feelings so badly that it's a wonder I still feel anything at all for him. I bet you feel that way, too, at times.<P><BR>Tomorrow is our anniversary. He hasn't said one word about it yet to me, but he DID cancel other plans (work-related) this weekend to come home and spend time with me. I am just so confused right now!! It was one year ago right now that I found out how unhappy he was in our marriage. Nice "anniversary" gift, eh? My nerves are a little shot which is why I haven't written in a few days. <P>Believe me, GFB, I know straight from the heart how hard all of this is on us BS's. Part of me is praying that he at least mentions our wedding anniversary to me tomorrow, and part of me is hoping he doesn't. Why? Because it is very hard to do what you know you have to do when sentimental feelings get in the way. Although we are getting along worlds better than a few months ago, things are still not at an "all clear" stage. ]<P>Time. Patience. Prayer. Strength. Wow....no wonder our bodies go out of whack! I don't know about you, but I am still having trouble sleeping.<P>Hope to hear back from you about this past w/e.<P>Hugs,<BR>Winny<p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 13, 2001).]

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<BR>Happy Anniversary Win, Like either of us are very happy at the moment. I'm sure your H will acknowledge "today," though I don't know either of you, so I couldn't guess what he's going to do...maybe you'll get lucky??? *laugh* (high school days) <P>As for myself, Friday I worked my 24hr shift, Saturday I didn't have the opportunity to see her except for a brief moment (which resulted in a love buster moment but started out good) on my way home she was penciled in to help this OM at the race track. My MIL also came out for the day which was a huge comfort for me!!! Sunday, after mom left (she played moderator for a bit and they convinced me nothing was going on between my W and the OM) W and I spent from noon on together....around 6pm we began talking...until around midnight. But the only thing positive that really came out of it was she'll "stay and try but if it doesn't change would I accept a divorce." Of course I said "no" then mentioned the word "contested," for some reason she began crying afterward, I can only see her urge to be free. I told her if she is going to "stay" to see if anything change she has to make an "attempt" to change/expand positively how she feels about us. The therapist, MIL and my Wife have all expressed that in the past it didn't seem as if I was placing my W number "1" there was always something else..i.e., work. Now that I see maybe that is what happened. I want the opportunity to show her she is number one. Consciously I never placed anyone before her but somehow it ended up that way I guess...it's what they perceive.<P>I went to my first Church of Christ session on Sunday. Tear jerker?? Yes! I felt like the pastor/preacher?? was directing the entire sermon at me...(he began at the "Truly, Truly" paragraph in John??) he spoke about letting go to extreme sadness to wrong decisions to joy and then they sang about a ship at sea, anchored in a rough storm and whether or not the anchor would hold through the storm....boy, I was there for around thirty minutes then went and cried for over an hour. My W isn't in the Church mood, but if you knew me, going to church would be the last place you'd expect me! I wish she would "TRY..."<P>These times are emotionally taxing and I guess (as the saying go's) were sent to try our souls. I need someone to tell me how to do this, everything I do generates a negative response from the W. If I wasn't as affectionate before, if I didn't seem as if I placed her first(again, if you knew me this doesn't sound right), if I didn't understand her emotional needs...I don't want to change, let me expand my love. Who we are is who we are, we can't change but we can expand! <P>I hope you have a good day!<P>Shoot me an e-mail with your link, I'll shoot back a shot of our horse~<P>G<P><BR>

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Hi, GFB!<P>My heart nearly broke for you when I read your last post. (until I got to the end. GREAT! what an ending!) Wow...do I ever know how it feels when your spouse looks you in the eye and says "I think I'm going for the divorce." At the risk of sounding redundant, I've been there, done that, too, but am happy to tell you that all is STILL not lost!<P>It's good that you two talked for six hours. Sure...lots of things were said that you wished weren't, but it's a good beginning of honest communication. Your W is telling you that she feels she wasn't your first concern, that something always came ahead of her. You both seem to think that it was/is your job. I can relate to that, too, being married to a workaholic/over-achiever. One day it hit me that if my H didn't work so hard, or so much, I wouldn't have the things that he gave to me over the years. Most are things I never asked for, but he was happy to give them to me and I was very appreciative of them. He never caught on to the fact that I would have preferred to have him spend time with me instead of spend his money on me. But, with a huge grain of salt, I accepted and realized that this is his nature...period. Your W is not at that place yet, GFB. She hasn't caught on to the fact that YOUR way of showing her love is to give her things and provide a good life for her. It is a need that you have, much like my H, and while you and he think you are doing the 'right' thing, we W's are aching for more of your company. This is something you both should really talk about because I think it is a valuable key to your problems. You need to strike a healthier compromise, just like my H and I have done. One day, I'll go into more detail about what nearly derailed our M, but it had to do with this very thing.<P>As for your experience at church...hooray!! You had a very powerful spiritual release; your inner you had a chance to 'let it all out,' and give it over to God. Keep this up, GFB. Getting in touch with your spiritual self is such an important step. We humans are much, much more than skin and bone and mentality. We are also spiritual beings, one with God, and when we hurt, He hurts for us, too. Asking HIm to come into your life and to help you will make a huge difference in your life. He will grant you an inner peace you never knew existed! And, once you feel that peace, things will start to fall into place like a big jigsaw puzzle getting done. It is when we are at our lowest that we literally have no one else to turn to except for God, and He is there for us. <P>Keep praying, keep on talking to your W and most of all LISTEN to what she says. Ask her if she would be willing to be willing to make your M work. Don't try to pressure her into anything--just ask her that question. Where did I get that from? From a healing service at my church! I was asked by my priest if I would be willing to be willing to forgive someone who had hurt me. I said, "Sure, why not?' Although I didn't really feel like forgiving that person at that time, I admitted that I was willing to be willing to forgive. Two days later, that person and I had a beautiful reconciliation, and we remain good friends to this day. Once your W sees the change in YOU from your getting closer to God, she will start to open up to the possibilities of 'being willing to be willing' to make your marriage work.<P>By the way...my prayers were answered today!! My H called me not once but twice just to touch base with me and wish me a happy anniversary! We talked on the phone until he was out of range (God bless cell phones that poop out on us!! grr!), and although many miles separated us, we were one in thought and spirit. <big smile!> It was more than I had hoped for and I am convinced that if it were not for turning this whole mess over to God and relying on His help, it would not have happened. We are still together--halleluja!--and hope still springs eternal in my heart.<P>OK..nuff from me for now. I sent you the URL to my website, hope you find it useful!<P>God bless and sending you prayers and hugs,<BR>Winny [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>PS..<BR>many thanks for the anniversary wish! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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Winny,<P>Wow, this topic is becoming longer by the minute and it's just us...I hope Alone is still making headway, and I apologize if I stole is His Thunder on this board.<P>Yesterday was a plus for you, if I interpret correctly?? Thanks for the sympothy...it's quite different from someone telling you when compared to writing it... I can always go back and reassure myself<P>So far today I have to think about my W wanting to go on a "mini vacation," alone, near our horses, she want's to think-do-say-feel nothing at all. I know at the moment I can suffice...but when the time comes, will I be able to????????????? The devil just has an incredible stronghold on my brain, I can't help to think our relationship is going to end...infidelity...and so forth. Last night at work I read about looking with your soul and not just with your eyes. Maybe I'm just seeing things from a jealous mans <BR>perspective...who knows??<P>Today I made it a point to meet her for breakfast and I managed to get out of there with out shoving my foot in my mouth...but I know what is coming later. So, I hope i can continue on a positive track today though when she comes home she's going to give me her lowdown on contesting a divorce...She views it as having the court make someone stay who doesn't want to....<P>Our 5th (7+yrs together) anniversary is in April, for the past year or so I've considered renewing our vows or getting married again, though this time we'll have a larger wedding (JP for our first). I've looked in NJ for some really nice places, right next to our Training facility...Unfortunately you have to plan in advance, this is the heart breaker...<P>Ok, Win(when I don't think aout you name in conjunction with horses...I almost WinNT...I was in the puter field for a bit networking but as you know once you get stepped on so many times, it's not fun anymore) I have to prepare for my [censored] reeming...I hope I can mantain composure.<P>Have another very fine, sunny day. Did you get any sugar cubes?? When you do those horses are <BR>going to be your best friends all over again....wait, is that all it takes?? I'm off to the store. LOL<P>GFB

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Have you ever heard the saying, I feel like I've been shot at and missed, **** at and hit?<P>Just as I assumed, last night became the worst evening yet. My W is not willing to find her feelings in "Us" again. She doesn't think it's possible. So we had a very spiteful argument concerning divorce, she said she'll file this coming week. At our conclusion, I only asked her to think long and hard before submitting any paperwork. Not for the fact of how spiteful I'm going to be, but because I want her to think of how we can expand and be happy...but she is not happy and doesn't want to live with someone who makes her unhappy. I've made the bed, now i have to layin it.<P>I never thought I'd ask my parents for anything again but I'm going to head to their home (n. of phila)for the evening..it's funny it took 28 yrs for me to ask for their help...though I despise them, I need someone... It seems I grew up in poor environment, being unhappy, so I can relate with my W..I guess. I lived 18 unhappy yrs in Pennsylvania, moved away and became happy, now we're back and it's ultimately destroyed my life(for the time being as I'm told). I know i didn't fall in love over night and will not fall out of love over night..there is still plenty more hurt down the road for me but there is also resolution, I <BR>hope. <P>And regarding this other man, I though about it the other day and for some reason when I opened my book "Think with your soul not with you eyes" section stared me in the face!<P>Maybe I do need some antidepressants, I feel horrible. But how does this look on a Police Department Appl? They'll consider me too unstable.<P>Take it easy Winny!

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And regarding this other man, I though about it the other day and for some reason when I opened my book "Think with your soul not with you eyes" section stared me in the face!<P>Maybe I do need some antidepressants, I feel horrible. But how does this look on a Police Department Appl? They'll consider me too unstable.<P>Take it easy Winny![/B][/QUOTE]<P><BR>GFB,<BR>Well, your W drew the line in the sand, didn't she? My heart goes out to you, as you know it must by this time, and I still say that all is not lost. Just keep on praying and most of all TAKE CARE OF *YOU*. Now is the perfect time to turn to family, friends, a counselor, your minister--get a support system in place for yourself. Trust me in this one, you will not regret doing so. Also, keep in mind that your W is most likely definitely "in the fog", and it sounds to me like she has a little bit of security going there. That is, someone waiting in the wings for her. VERY few people strike out on their own for the h*** of it, with no one waiting for them to hold their hand, coddle them and assure them they will not be alone. Am I right here or what? You know I am, instinctively. <P>So, where do you go from here? You take care of YOUR needs right now, clear your mind as best as you can. I don't know how to answer you on the anti-d med's and job application question. Personally, I have never taken any of those med's and relied on sheer inner strength and LOTS and lots of prayer and meditation. Also, having an ally helped me a lot (my mom, who lives with us), more than I can say. I also got myself into a dynamite exercise program at our local YMCA (it's co-ed), and that has been like a lifeline for me.<P>The point is, do things that YOU like to do, or things that are good for you to do. Keep your mind occupied and off the situation as much as possible (true, it's very hard, but even a moment or two respite here and there adds up!).<P>She wants to "fly on her own"? Well, let her. Also, while you're at it, now would be a GREAT time to get some proof of an EA or PA. Start searching (look thru your garbage cans! they hold tons of possible clues). If you could only catch them on film ( have a friend stop by the barn w/ a camera), that would be peachy, in the event of a real court battle. Depending on the state you live in (I live in PA), adultery is not looked upon kindly by the courts and can make a huge difference in the settlement outcome.<P>By all means, get yourself a good lawyer and just go in and ask about your rights in your state. If need be, hire him as your divorce atty., but don't neglect this important step. As soon as my H found out I went to one, it stopped him dead in his tracks! Suddenly, his "I want to be on my own again...I'm unhappy in our marriage" and all of that flew right out the window. It's amazing what taking a real positive step for your protection can do in a situation like this.<P>Above all, do not lose faith. No matter which way it turns out from here, God is still in control. Perhaps He has someone better for you down the road, because what your W is doing to you is heartless and very cruel. Would you really want to spend the rest of your life with someone like that? Just think on these things and look with your soul, like you said.<P>I'm praying for you!!!<BR>Winny<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 16, 2001).]

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Win~<BR>Yep she drew the line all right then I crossed it again, LOL. I wish I knew how to take care of me, <BR>for the last few yrs of my life it been "us." I no longer have things "I" like to do, it's what we did <BR>obviously to push us apart. We're in separate beds now, she just did "her" laundry...<P>Today I'm going to make an appt. to speak with an attorney. As for worrying about the settlement, <BR>all she wants is the horse and truck and what ever she brought into the relationship. Now our house <BR>we built from ground up, I can't live here any longer...we stained our furniture together, I can't even <BR>sleep in our bed, sit in our living room or look at anything here for that matter except fr these divorce <BR>request forms. The chain saw will prevail, lol. I may go rent War of the Roses tonight, need some <BR>ideas.<P>I'm not loosing faith, I really wish she'd hold off on anything until she is finished school, get that load <BR>off her mind. But she is determined, like I mentioned before, nothing in her eyes but a anticipated <BR>satisfaction of splitting up. I found an old poem she wrote or found for me called "My Boyfriend." I <BR>left it sitting out, she didn't even touch it so i threw it away....<P>I guess I should read to and ask god to take this pain away at least for today.<P>Enjoy the day, and BTW I do live in PA and I really doubt anything is going on between her and the <BR>OM, but like I said "I doubt," not I'm sure. <P>M (akaGFB)<BR>

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HI, M...<P>OK! You made it through "day 1". That's a good first step, believe it or not! I understand perfectly about being out of practice doing "I" things, and used to doing "us" things. Well....get to it, M! No time like the present, as they say. The sooner you start doing things for you, the quicker you will come out of shock (and yes, it is shock), and be able to process thoughts and feelings more accurately. Don't look backwards--look forwards, and keep your eye on the goal which is, ultimately, your peace of mind. One way or the other, you will know peace of mind again, although it may not feel like it at this time. Seeing a lawyer will give you peace of mind in the practical sense--you truly do need to know what your rights are.<P>Personally, it sounds to me like your W is very eager to leave your relationship, the key word being "eager." You do NOT sound like an ogre to me, or someone who is abusive or mean, so I would have to wonder what her rush is. Really, though, don't concern yourself too much with this thought because it's like spinning wheels in the mud. It just isn't going to get you anywhere any faster. <P>As for your house, I understand that feeling,too, but please, don't do anything in haste at this time (like put it on the market), ok? Give yourself some time to calm down a bit, to move further out of the shock you are in, before you make any other major life's decisions. The most important thing you CAN do at this time is to make sure YOU are ok. If you feel like going out for a drive, do it. Want to go out for a meal, do that, too. You do not have to tell her where you are going or why, let her wonder for a change. This may sound petty and un-MB, but really, I don't think it is. If she wants to separate, let her feel what that means starting from today. <P>As you grow stronger, you will feel much better, M. Just always remember that you are a worthwhile person, and your W not loving you does not change that one bit. This is HER problem, which has now become your problem, but I believe that all problems are solvable, one way or the other.<P>As for leaving little romantic things around (your poem), I'd stop that, too. You are only lining yourself up for more hurt, and that is not 'being kind to yourself.' See what I mean? Just do things that will mean positive outcomes right now in your life, because you sure do have a pile full of the negative on your plate. <P>Yes, the pain will get less as the days go by. It won't seem that way at first, but it really does happen. There are a whole LOT of emotions and feelings going on inside of you right now, and it takes time to get them all sorted out. <P>You still doubt your W has a thing going on with the OM. Fine. If that helps you to keep your head on straight right now, then ok. But, I want to caution you that IF the opposite is true, you could be in for yet another shock to your system. Just Please..keep your eyes and ears open and most of all, your mind open. <P>You know, I found out from my own experience w/my H that the worst thing that can happen to a WS is to be found out. That changes the complexion of everything, from the exhileration of the fog right down to wondering if the OP is really worth it all. So, I'm trying to tell you that IF your W is indeed having an affair, it would be in your best interest to find out for once and for all if it's true or not. Just rememeber that TRUTH is a very powerful force, M. Once truth is out in the open, great things can happen. If truth is constantly hidden in the dark, only darkness and all of its ugly and painful emotions and feelings will surround you. <P>Still praying for you....hang in there!<BR>Winny<p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 17, 2001).]

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My God Winny, it's so hard to maintain composure. Yesterday we had a big ol' argument, W went to a hotel last night only told her mother where she was. I found out but went to the wrong hotel this morning, just wanted to see if I recognized any cars other than ours...I mean hers as of now. She also keeps pushing the division of property on me. I can't even eat without her shoving this issue down my throat. <P>As for her eagerness, she just says that she's drained and doesn't feel anything for me...not at all. Like I mentioned before, my lack of attention(laugh) caused her feeling to plummet. We're at each other's throats every second...I can't simply accept the fact this is happening and she is just getting to the point of disgust. I don't think she wants to be in the same building! <P>Monday is the day, W will submit paper work, it should be fun receiving that shi* in the mail. I don't think I'm going to contest, why should I? Though I will seek an attorney's advice, for my own rights. <P>As for our house, I can't stand it anymore. Decisions made in anger are not the best, but I can't see myself staying there. Like I said "WE" built it, choose the tile and trim. There is just too much of us there...<BR>I'll do my best to figure out if OM is involved. Though she insists there is nothing, a month or two down the road when they're together...I'll hate myself for trusting her! <P>M<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Goinforbroke (edited August 18, 2001).]

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Hi, M!<BR>Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, but I don't go to the MB site on the weekends. It's the only time my H is home, and our time together is so limited that I avoid using the computer. Also...I just want you to know that even though people can be in stages of recovery, strange things can still happen. It'll save me a lot of time and typing if you read my post at this thread: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/004197.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/004197.html</A> <P>Now, then, I am so sorry for the disasterous happenings in your situation and am praying you were able to keep things together over the weekend. I mean, keep things together with yourself, M. Also, I don't know about PA, but in NY where I'm from, papers are served, not mailed. So, be on the lookout for a process server.<P>Sometimes, a marriage needs to undergo the worst case scenario in order to be saved. This is just my own humble opinion, but after reading through countless letters here on the MB site, this seems to happen a lot more than anyone would think. Remember that old saying, "If you love something, set it free. If it doesn't come back, it was never really yours." ? I believe that, M.<P>Uh oh...Mom's coming downstairs for breakfast. I'll have to continue this later. Just hang in there, M, and know that you will make it.<P>Later...<BR>Winny<BR>

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Win, Yesterday my W, soon to be ex, sat down and divvied everything up. I read though a Christian <BR>web site and found a couple of interesting tidbits of advice and came to the realiztion...to show her I <BR>truly love her I'll let her go and be happy. She is obviously not happy here, I'm convincing to myself that <BR>it isn't fair for her to be so miserable. From today on I'll practice my newly instated Plan A, just stop <BR>accusing her of infidelity(though I won't stop my suspicions), stop saying things that I know are going to <BR>have more of a negative impact on me rather than her, I want to stop being spiteful to everyone who <BR>tells me "it just wasn't meant to be I guess." This week, because of the wife's "eagerness" we have to <BR>make our settlement agreement legal. Goo cluck finding a lawyer. I had an appointment today for an <BR>initial consultation but the lawyer canceled. My W wants to move out so bad when i show my anger or <BR>dislike concerning divorce.. I wan to spend at least the last three months together...guess I need to find <BR>control. <P>This is just unbelievable, unthinkable though comparable to the worst feeling I could ever expect to <BR>endure. I know it'll take time until I feel ready again...but after having been loved for so long, not <BR>worrying about rejection or ridicule or insecurities...going cold turkey seems impossible. Everywhere I <BR>go, I see couples, babies, businesses you name it that remind me of her and I and the future I <BR>expected. Even our friends seem to bring my sorrow out, my wife just holds her head up high and <BR>doesn't show a sign.<P>Well Win, this board has been a good source of salvation I appreciate your time. i'll continue to post <BR>maybe the info will help someone else in the future. I have to laugh, if this all worked out i was going to <BR>invite you and your H to my vow renewal ceromony...<P>Have a great day, now yu have two posts to reply toooooooo.<P>M

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M,<BR>My new friend, I can almost feel your pain. In fact, vestiges of my own pain resurfaced this past w/e, and it humbled me. I hope that nothing I've said has caused you any undue pain or extra worry, and if so, I know that you know it was not intentional. Soft apologies (just in case)hugs to you, {{{M}}}<P>I know what you mean re: friends who tell you "it's all for the best." Sure--so EASY for them to say, not being in your shoes. In time, those little well-intended but oh so painful remarks will not bother you as much, but it's going to take time. I developed a stock phrase for such remarks. I smile and tell them, "OK..when you're in my shoes for a bit, come back and tell me how you feel." That ususally stops that little 'thread' right there. As for the coupleness you witness all around you, I know how hard that is. Just keep in mind that it's normal to feel these feelings and in time, they, too, will soften to a dull roar. It's not much, but it does help.<P>I applaud your new strategy and inner resolve, M. You know what's funny? At one point during our own negotiaions, my H said a very similar thing to me. He said," But, if you truly love me, wouldn't you want to see me happy?" My answer was, OF COURSE!, and..."I will not stand in your way. If this is what you truly want [i.e., to break up the marriage and leave me], then by all means, how could I stand in your way? I love you that much to let you go."<P>M, as surely as the sky is blue today, that seemed to really matter to him. It was shortly after that that we seemed to get back on track. The "change" started within ME, not him and not our marriage. I had to get myself to that place that you are at now when you let go and let God. (how'd you like that phrase?! It's saved me time and again). <P>Although it hurt like hell, and I thought for sure I was losing my mind, I realized something: truth is as it IS, not as we wish it to be. I had to consiously ban all thoughts of past holidays, special life's events and all of that from my mind for a while. As tempting as it was to dwell on them, and think of them, I realized that they were only bringing me additional pain. So, I would replace them with a humerous movie, or a good book, or any one of a dozen or so hobbies that I enjoy. In time, the thoughts started not being so painful, but as I said in my post in the other forum, it's only been 5 months since we've been in recovery. We have a long way to go, but I am going there as a whole new person. I'm wiser now, and a lot stronger and feel I've grown as a person and as a woman. <P>I am going to be a guest speaker at a big "family day" for a local support group for Cancer Survivors next month. From what I hear, it's a huge event here in my city. Anyway, I'm speaking as a caregiver, and as a victim of my own bone ailment. One of the things I am going to touch on is how a personal crisis such as marriage crashing/burning can actually make one stronger, and in some cases, a better person. Just when I was so down, along came that phone call and invitation, M. See how God works? He never closes one door that He doesn't open another. For His reasons, I am supposed to continue on helping others, and now I get the chance to do it 'publically.' Perhaps this is a part of the healing process, and I urge you to (1) take good care of yourself and (2) look for the next open door. It will come, M. Just have faith and look upwards, always.<P>Lots of hugs and prayers, as always,<BR>Winny [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>"You won't see an open door if you are constantly looking down at the ground." <BR>smile! God loves you! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 20, 2001).]

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This topic is on Fire! <P>Have you read any of the good Dr's books? Make the marriage come alive again! you can do it! Hopefully she is not having an affair. that would not help matters, but there are lots of ways you can wake things up. READ READ READ! you don't need counseling, you need a book and to do some soul searching with your wife. I am sure you will remember why you both married. I am sure you have a lot more together than you would have apart.

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Jenn,<BR>Thanks for the encouragement but you know the old saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. My wife is gone, no if's, and's or buttttts about it. "I've" read just about everything, been to a counselor, church and so forth. She will not make an attempt...her words "there is nothing to fix" has her convinced. I just wasn't what she wanted I guess...Some small things in our past (nothing abusive, just decisions based a male's mentality) keep popping up, but they were issue of then not now...Ok, so I didn't buy her flowers once a week or month or year, but I gave her love, a marriage, security and so forth. I bought with here a horse a family business a house a big ol truck. I convinced myself these items were sufficient compared to flowers. Her family thinks I'm the greatest...well they used to.*laugh*<P>But anyway, I'll take your encouragement...maybe I'll try again with her...but maybe I'll just push her further away.<P>GFB <BR>

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Hi, M!<BR>First, thanks for the great pic's of your horse! What a lovely animal--he is a true beauty!! Also, it was neat seeing you and your W, too. Oh..before I forget, please send email to my AVNgal@yahoo.com account from now on. I reserve my AOL one for official support group business. Thanks!<P>M, I have something to ask you. The other man in that one photo...who is he? Is he the "OM"? If he is, I have something to tell you that I know will be upsetting to you and please forgive me beforehand...BUT...I need to say this to you. From another female's perspective, that man is quite movie-star handsome. Wow! I don't know who he is, but I do know that if I were single, I'd ask to meet him (providing he was single, too!). LOL! sorry...I don't mean to minimize your own good looks, but if he IS the OM, I can understand why your W might be attracted to him. He seems to exude that almost western-cowboy type of charm, rugged yet refined handsomeness of the face at the same time. He's almost 'too pretty', if that makes any sense! <P>M, honestly...if a man like that were to pay attention to ANY female I KNOW her heart would skip a beat or two, she'd feel giddy, and very flattered. He actually reminds me of my own H in style and body build, and I know that I am wildly attracted to my H! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] When he's not at his preppy job, he dresses much the same way the guy in that photo does, and it just turns me ON!<P>To top it all off, didn't you say this man is younger than you? M, really...IF this is that other guy, I'd have to say that your wife would be totally DEAD if she didn't feel flattered/excited to receive attention from him. And you say they spend hours and hours together???? Holy cow!!<P>LOL! I just had a thought!! Is this guy YOU, or are you the taller one standing by J's side? (wow! talk about putting my foot in my mouth, eh??!) The way you captioned the pic, I read it as first your W, then you, then "(name)". <P>All I'm trying to say is if this man is the OM, watch out, M. <still fanning myself here!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]) It's funny how 'eye candy' can be so appealing, isn't it? Lovely to look at, really beautiful/handsome people have an edge over the rest of us in getting to attract others. The proof is in getting to know them, and no matter HOW good looking this guy is, he has NO business trying to woo another man's wife! <P>I'm so sorry if this post upsets you, M, and you know that. I just wanted to give you another woman's take on this, and I'm being honest with my reactions. Just a word to the wise......<P>Hugs,<BR>Winny<P>

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"Movie Star handsome, almost too pretty,ruggedness.."Thanks for flattering me Winn. The people on the picture are my wife far (left), our vietnam era buddy Jack (middle) and I'm to the far right..I hope you were talking about me, at least from what I gathered you were. If I had a picture of the other man I'd send it but I purged our photo envelopes, he wasn't in any of them. They guy in the middle is around <BR>50 years old...I'm 28, W 26..the suspected other man is 30 or so.<P>Here is a good one for me!!! My W needed to take a sabbatical for two days, tonight and tomorrow evening...So naturally I came home and checked out what she took. Well our lingerie is still here though the short robe that goes with it is gone...her new dress she bought to attend a dinner date with old friends(mutual friends) is gone..why wear the same dress twice with our friends.. I'm going on <BR>snoop alert tonight. I'll find out which hotel she is in and later I'll set up post (in the parking lot) hoping not to be seen. I also know where this OM lives, going there also...guess I have to keep myself from stalking charges.<P>I really want to confront her regarding her lingerie and dress, but should I...I hope you write back today...somehow your words may give me the strength I need not to stick my foot in my mouth...I also just installed a Keystroke recorder on my puter...I'm getting deep. if she has no qualms about leaving, just prancing around like everything is fine, I'm going to nail her. (I wish I could nail her)*laugh* PA adultery law gives the betrayed 75 pct of everything...even her horsey! <P>I don't know why i do this to myself, I can and can't trust her. I feel like her friends know more than what I know, and I hope it isn't how good this OM is....it all makes my heart pound so heard and my stomach turn...Maybe i need companionship with OW?? I'm stupid!*laugh*<P>One more thing, my counselor called my insurance provider(for payment purposes)...my ins provider spoke with my doctors at work and recommended I go for a psych eval because I was undergoing psychotherapy. the doctors came at me yesterday with everything excluding straight jackets. Whew!<P>Don't forget to smell the roses today!<BR>M<P>

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M!!<BR>OMG!! LOLOLOL!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] All I have to say NOW is, is your wife crazy?! YES, I guess I embarrassed myself but good--that WAS you in the photo, then! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] At least, it must have done your self esteem some good, huh? And..it was totally innocent on my part, to boot! You really are a very handsome and virile-looking man.<P>OK..now, you are preparing for what I came to call "Phase Two". That's my watered-down version for "Snooping." And, it's OK in my book (as it is in a lot of others', including Dr. Harley!) It is our right as potential or proven betrayed spouses to know, for once and for all, the truth. After all, if a relationship isn't built on TRUTH, then it's not much of a relationship..right??<P>I think you are right on track here, M. The missing dress and lingerie robe are two good potential clues. If you are going to plant yourself in the parking lot of the hotel, can you borrow a friend's car..or rent one for the evening? Also, do NOT forget to take a camera with you with good quality highspeed film. "A picture is worth a thousand words." 'Nuff said!<P>Look at it this way: the BEST case scenario is that you discover nothing adulterous whatsoever is going on. The worst case is that there is, indeed, hankypanky between W and some OM. Regardless of either way, your W seems to have made it clear to you that she is not interested in the marriage at this point, and in that case, you still have a good chance of getting her back. <P>I wish you luck and DEFINITELY, please keep us updated! I'd love to know myself at this point what's going on! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Hugs and prayers..and smiles and good thoughts, <BR>Winny

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M..<BR>I forgot to answer your most important question!! If it were me, I would NOT mention anything at all to your W about the missing clothes or anything else about tonight.<P>The more a WS finds out what his/her spouse knows, the more they can hide things and become even more secretive.<P>Just keep as cool and calm as you can, don't even mention her little soiree tonight--and do what needs to be done on your end of things.<P>Good luck! (hearing strains of the old "Mission Impossible" theme in my head now! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com])<P>Winny

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Good morning every Winn,<BR>Thanks again for boosting my self esteem, LOL. For some reason my wife is looking beyond that. She used to tell me how much she loved my lips, though now doesn't want any part of them now.<P>Well last night turned up negative results, I went to the hotel saw our truck (no clues inside) and didn't recognize any other vehicle (My professional job description basically mirrors that of a detective, I think I know what to look for), so off to the farm I went to see if the OM may have left his truck there and went with my wife, node! Back to the hotel, I even walked around a bit stayed for half hour and left so In all I took around three hours to snoop, and didn't locate anything...But today is another day, I leave for work tomorrow at 4:30AM, I'll make it a point to swing by again. the only funny this that came out of this is i *69 the phone when I got home, someone had called at <BR>10:30PM from a number that I can't trace(we never get calls after 10)...hotel room maybe...maybe she saw me...****! Who ever it was they didn't leave a msg. But I have an alibi, Dairy Queen. LOL<P>I was thinking, maybe she took the lingerie robe for comfort vs. passion while she stayed in the hotel?? I won't mention it unless I find it washed and hung in the closet. It pisses me off, she'll be returning home and I 'll be at work. I'm sure she'll wash everything...time to disable the washer. As for getting her back, we have a settlement agreement written up for a lawyer to review..on Monday.<BR>My wife is being head strong, she will not look back and continues to say and believe "there is nothing to fix."<P>What were you implying by "Regardless of either way, your W seems to have made it clear to you that she is not interested in the marriage at this point, and in that case, you still have a good chance of getting her back."<P>So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,<BR>So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.<P>M<P><BR>

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Good morning every Winn,<BR>Thanks again for boosting my self esteem, LOL. For some reason my wife is looking beyond that. She used to tell me how much she loved my lips, though now doesn't want any part of them now.<P>Well last night turned up negative results, I went to the hotel saw our truck (no clues inside) and didn't recognize any other vehicle (My professional job description basically mirrors that of a detective, I think I know what to look for), so off to the farm I went to see if the OM may have left his truck there and went with my wife, node! Back to the hotel, I even walked around a bit stayed for half hour and left so In all I took around three hours to snoop, and didn't locate anything...But today is another day, I leave for work tomorrow at 4:30AM, I'll make it a point to swing by again. the only funny this that came out of this is i *69 the phone when I got home, someone had called at <BR>10:30PM from a number that I can't trace(we never get calls after 10)...hotel room maybe...maybe she saw me...****! Who ever it was they didn't leave a msg. But I have an alibi, Dairy Queen. LOL<P>I was thinking, maybe she took the lingerie robe for comfort vs. passion while she stayed in the hotel?? I won't mention it unless I find it washed and hung in the closet. It pisses me off, she'll be returning home and I 'll be at work. I'm sure she'll wash everything...time to disable the washer. As for getting her back, we have a settlement agreement written up for a lawyer to review..on Monday.<BR>My wife is being head strong, she will not look back and continues to say and believe "there is nothing to fix."<P>What were you implying by "Regardless of either way, your W seems to have made it clear to you that she is not interested in the marriage at this point, and in that case, you still have a good chance of getting her back."<P>So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,<BR>So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.<P>M<P><BR>

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Hi, M...<BR>Frst, to answer your question, what I meant was that as long as you two are still together, there is still a chance you can win her back. Of course, now that I read your newest post re: Monday/settlement agreement, that narrows down the time limit a bit. It was a confusing statment that I made, I know, and I'm sorry--it wasn't such a good day for me yesterday, either. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] <P>Now, as for that phone call. I found out that when someone calls you by a phone card, the number can't be traced back via *69. You get a message kind of like "..the number is not in our calling area." Ditto for a phone booth, except the message is shortened to "..can't be reached by this method." If the calling number is unlisted, or if the caller has it blocked, you hear "...the number is marked as Private and cannot be reached by this method." I found this out myself by trial and error. Just out of curiosity,what, exactly, was the message (if any) you got when you tried *69? If it was "out of this calling area", look for a phone card in her stuff.<P>As for your sojourn last night, all it proved was that she was there, but not with who, or if alone. I think you are right in suspecting that "someone" was checking up on your whereabouts by that phone call. Of course, it might have been a wrong number, but after a while when too many of these coincidences happen, you can't help but wonder. This is just your first, so of course, there is no way to prove what it was all about.<P>Just a thought, here: does your W have a fav. restaurant or nightclub type of spot? You might want to check that out, too, tonight. Otherwise, why did she bring the dress? Also, does the restaurant have a bar/dining room? Check those, too. <P>As for the lingerie coat for "comfort"..yeah, right! I have a few of those, too, and they are anything BUT comfortable. They're chllly, the lacey edges are itchy and if someone comes to the door, they don't provide any modesty at all. Comfort clothes would be pajamas, a nightgown, a nice terry robe, or just a simple T-shirt/nightwear getup thing.<P>Did you mean the OM's truck was or wasn't at the stable? Who's to say she didn't provide transportation for him? There are so many variables, M, that it can drive one crazy. Did you use your own car or someone else's? Maybe tonight you might want to think about a different vehicle.<P>Also, did you know you can call the hotel and ask if "Mrs. So and So" is regiestered there, and they will tell you? This way, if she used her real name, fine. If she used a fake name, you'll know that, too, and have a GOOD question for her when she gets home. Also, ask if there is a Mr/Mrs. "OM's Name" there. Since you have PI experience, or close to it, I'm sure you thought of these suggestions already. <P>Good luck tonight and I hope you find out one way or the other what is or is not going on.<P>Hugs...<BR>Winny<P>PS..<BR>Did you know a kleenex or two left behind in the washer(or paper towel, dampened and crumpled up first) would make a mess of the laundry?? (The best part is that it also shows up in the dryer lint trap)Lint all OVER the place and all over the clothes! Just keep your own dirty duds hidden for the next day or so. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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Winn,<BR>I just spoke to the W, she said she did not attempt to call, she also said the other evening she got a solicitor at 9:30PM...I told her it was a 973 area code??? and they woke me up at 10:30PM...As for what it said when I called back, "the mailbox has not been setup yet." I just found it odd to receive a "wrong number" from the so called right area code, ya know. Something else that was funny, I parked on the back side of the hotel, opposite of where our truck was...where do you think her room was, lol. Right where I parked and she said she was sitting outside for a bit, whew, I got lucky!<P>As for the OM's truck, it was not at either location so in turn, I was glad.<P>I broke down on the phone with her again asking her to please give "us" more thought, this was after she made sure an appointment was set with the attorney. W is standing strong, it's killing me. I really wish she was in a fog. I may write her a long, loving letter today touching on our "Good" past but it seems this may be more wasted time on my part?? I just feel like trash...how can you devote so much time to a relationship and throw it away like trash??<P>As for the robe, it isn't the frilly kind. Just silky, thigh long...I think it's purpose os to conceal the teddy...yee haw! Sorry, got ahead of myself. I also "semi confirmed" what the dress was for...one of our mutual friends may meet her for dinner tonight. The W does not have a fav restaurant /night spot, just the race track.<P>I'm going to call the hotel now...from a pay phone whith a card..I'll keep you posted. This is pretty juicey huh? LOL.<P>I think I'm just being a fool. What went on in you relationship the other day?<P>M...

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Hi, M,<BR>Well, it seems like you have a real mystery with the phone call! It's highly unlikely that a solicitor would call at that hour. Their fav. time is around dinner time, when most folks are home from work. That "mailbox isn't set up yet" message sounds very much like something that a hotel would offer thru it's phone service or lines, doesn't it? I mean, considering all of the high tech things available today, and with business people on the road and staying in motels/hotels, it sounds like a logcial service for them to offer.<P>As for my own situation, things are com' si-com' sa, which is Italian for 'so-so.' Nothing earth shattering going on, but at least we are still in the talking mode. This is worlds ahead of where we were just a few short months ago! Then, it was either dead silence or screaming and yelling (mostly from him to me), and terrible outbursts. Then again, we are apart 6 out of 7 days a week, so who is to say what it would be like if we saw each other every day? Deep in my heart, I Know that he had some kind of EA or special attachment to the OW but he stedafastly denies it. I just found too many things ('evidence') that prove otherwise. Of course, ALL of these things can be easily explained away with logical explanations, but like I told you before, there is a LIMIT to how many coincidences can happen to a person! I still say that actions speak louder than words and his actions proved to me that he was interested in someone else for a while there. Women somehow just "know." I think men do, too, but are more afraid to admit it (why that is, I dont' know).<P>In a couple of weeks, I have a life-changing event that is going to take place. I can't talk about it here, but I can tell you that that event will make a huge change in our lives, one I hope that is for the better. When all is said and done, I'll tell you more about it, but for now, just please say a little prayer or two for me, ok? Thanks! He told me a while back that depending on the outcome of this event, he will make 'his decision' whether or not to continue our marriage. Of course, I would HOPE that it would be love that motivates him and nothing else, but we'll just have to wait and see.<P>I am so sorry for your pain and upset at this time, M. I really do think that you are doing the right thing by trying to find out the truth for once and for all. Your W seems determined to end your marriage, sadly enough, but please don't lose hope. Keep on talking to her and don't forget to be good to yourself, too, along the way. Good luck tonight...<P>Hugs,<BR>Winny

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Winn, <BR>I checked the hotel this morning, negative results form the plain sight perspective, our truck was there no other cars looked familure...Not sure if leaving my wife's Lingerie hanger on my side of the closet was such a hot idea either?? As per your last response you recommended that I not do anything concerning the lingerie...but I felt compelled and stupid??? I also hid the detergent, for some reason when I went to trip the breaker for the washer I smacked my head into the wall, figured someone was trying to tell me something so I just hid the detergent. I bet she'll go and buy more detergent so she can cleanse her clothes....wanna bet?<P>Tomorrow I'll check my log on my home computer. I'm not sure if I even want to. See, I know this OM doesn't have a computer so I know there aren't little "I love you's" floating around...I'll let you know what I find.<P>I took the time to speak with some mutual friends last night...My buddy basically recommended I just let her go due her eagerness to leave and lack of desire to rebuild the relationship, lack of attraction to me and so forth...He also said God may be telling me, my W isn't the one for me. My reply was, maybe this is a test to prove my love for her...have faith in her, "walk on the water??" I think she is my soul mate, just lost in the fog. My W really needs to look at what has been brought to my attention, my desire and willingness to expand the apparent love I hold for her...I keep accusing her of infidelity, but I'm also trying to hold on to her with all my might! God I'm getting so confused and upset...she wants to head into the attorney's office on Monday...then she's going to file...............sigh!<P>Met another Christian yesterday...she made me want to crawl in a corner and cry...she said all you need to do is ask god for help. I want help NOW, lol, to fix my relationship.....<P>Have a good day. I sthis site slow on you puter or what???<P>M <BR>

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Met another Christian yesterday...she made me want to crawl in a corner and cry...she said all you need to do is ask god for help. I want help NOW, lol, to fix my relationship.....<P>Have a good day. I sthis site slow on you puter or what???<P>M [/b][/QUOTE]<P>Hi, M!<BR>Yep...it seems the entire Web has slowed down somewhat this week, especially this site!<P>I don't mean to giggle, but I had to when I read you bumped your head trying to flip that ole breaker switch! Hope you didn't get hurt--and yes, "someone" was trying to tell you something! You are distracted by your emotions and that's just when accidents can happen, so please BE CAREFUL! Slow down a bit--take some of those deep breaths--and don't get hurt again.<P>M, honestly, I have to agree w/your buddy in some ways. There comes a point in any situation when you just can't DO anymore than you've already done, and if you don't get the results you hoped for, then that is the time to "Let go and let God." You are asking Him for help, but you have to learn to be patient and let Him work on things in HIS time, not yours. Only God can see the bigger picture, M, we never can no matter how hard we try. Your buddy may be right: perhaps this woman is not the one God would have you be with. How do you find out for sure? You LET GO, after doing all that you can do. <P>Believe me, new friend, I KNOW how difficult this is!! I feel exactly like you do about my own spouse. To me, we are the perfect match, the ideal couple. He is my soulmate, and no one could love or understand him the way that I do and so forth and so on. However....something happened in his life that began to change his mind about us. As mere humans, we forget that we are NEVER totally in control of things. Not EVER. Oh, we can delude ourselves into thinking we can control thigns, but all God has to do is blink one eye, and our plans go down the drain! <P>I came to the conclusion this past year that what I needed to do was to start asking GOD "What is it that YOU want for me?" When I was ready to put my own thoughts, feelings and wants aside and truly rely and depend on God's judgement, truly remarkable things started to happen. You can't hand a problem over to Him one moment and then take it back the next, thinking He isn't doing such a good job! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] That's not faith or trust in Him, and all you really do is muck things up a little bit longer. <P>M, really, I know you love your W and she knows it, too and SO DOES GOD. Now, you've done all that you can mortally do, so step back and let Him take over. That means, let her make her own decsions at this time, react not with hate or spite, and ask to be willing to be willing to forgive her in case she was unfaithful. Your quite forebearance, and love and emotional support will sooner or later capture her attention. Just wait until she hits the first rough spot! In the meantime, you never know who you may meet along your journey, but if you are tied to someone who doesn't want to be with you, then you won't be free to explore new possibilites.<P>Sure, lot's of people walk away from a marriage thinking that things are going to be so much better off. Then, Reality 101 rises up and smacks them in the face! THAT's the time you'll get your chance to show her what true love really is. <P>BE PATIENT, my friend! Truth always wins out in the end, and asking God to help you means (1) facing the truth and (2) showing faith in Him to help you, no matter how long it takes.<P>I wish you peace this weekend, M! Enjoy the beauty of Nature this w/e, and put thoughts of Monday out of your head. There is no gurantee there is even going to BE a Monday, so don't waste your time and energy worrying about it now. Take things one day, and even one moment at a time, and know that God hears you and He will help you if you only let Him.<P>Hugs always,<BR>Winny [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 24, 2001).]

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M,<BR>How did it go? Update, please! Praying for you...<P>Winny

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Winny, I wasn't sure if you posted on weekends?? Well, as you put it, my stakeouts proved that she was at the hotel, she had Italian(food), I checked out our truck the only funny thing I found was the seat was slightly reclined, the only person who reclines the seat, at least from what i saw is this OM or OA(other *******). I still can't get over the skimpy robe stuff. I placed the hanger for it on my side of <BR>the closet, I know she saw, she put the robe back but neglected to say anything. As for the e-mails, nothing great except the following which was written last month: "I know Mark's dying inside and I feel so numb to all of it. Even at the counselor he was crying and I was composed. He even told the counselor that I wasn't the same, that if it had been months or a year earlier I would have been balling <BR>my eyes out too. He said he can see the distance in my eyes, even when I'm trying. He really is a good person and tries the best that he knows how. but it's not enough for me. Emotionally nor mentally and for the past few months physically. The first two are really my biggest issues and <BR>have been for quite some time. He deserves better and so do I." Now for the past few months I've worked a 24hr on and 48 hr off schedule. This was the busiest season for search and rescue. I had a whole mess of stress no support from the wife and she turns around and says he didn't suit me <BR>physically either, now I feel less endoewd, (I know what she means, I'm playing mindgames with myself). Our love life was hindered due to my schedule.........<P>I think I've lost her, yesterday I was so mad because she didn't ask me about the hanger. For some reason I slept in the other room also last night. Should I ignore her, she won't let me close to her? My mind is becoming very fogged it's hard to focus on anything. I wanted to go to church this morning but the traffic is horrendous on the weekends and the church is an hour away. Guess I should find a new <BR>one!<P>I wish i had peace this weekend, my MIL was over last night, i presume my wife gave the family heirloom (wedding ring) back to her mother. I've never been so upset or so angry. So me people say "at least you don't have any kids," this is true but it's like say give up, you don't have anything to loose.<P>She looked so different after not seeing her for four days(I worked two 24hr shifts, she took two days off). wasn't sure if I saw a sexually pleased women(from her vacation), my wife or my ex-wife to be.I haven't thought about Monday, like it says in the bible there is enough to worry about today...<P>It's beautiful out isn't it?<P>Have a great day Winn, i hope all is well with you!<BR>M

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Shucks Win, <BR>Too late I had to ask her why she took it, the robe that is.."so I didn't have to walk around a hotel <BR>room naked....i didn't feel like carrying a wet terry robe around." BS! So tonight she's going to the <BR>races with the presumed OM, "she says i work with these horses too...I'd like to see the race." BS! <BR>We're a lost cause in her mind so I should just accept it and move the heck on...I know when we're <BR>separated/divorced she'll turn to him...I keep reverting back to me being the OM...be what she <BR>wants...too late this OA(*******) already has her attention, he is what she want's whether they're <BR>involved or not, whether I like it or not. <P>I guess this was the storm that tests the faithfulness, it's been a horrible down poor and my <BR>relationship just got washed away.<P>I'll be out enjoying my day alone, again.<BR>Take it light Win!<BR>M

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Hi, M..<BR>Don't beat yourself up for asking her about the robe. You had every right to ask, especially AFTER the fact. If you had asked before she went away, it could have been a whole lot uglier. I agree: "BS". I just had a thought hit me here: you know who the "bs" is good for?? Just the bull, in my opinion. He gets to get rid of it and the rest of the world gets to deal with the mess! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] Just trying to get a smile on your face, kiddo! <P>Hey, M. How come YOU can't go with her to the races tonight? Are you working and can't go? Or, are you just not invited? I can't help it, it must be the little devil in me, but if it were me and I had nothing else to do, I'd GO to the d*** race! Why don't you go, anyway, even 'undercover', so to speak and quietly observe? <P>I'm so sorry about that email of hers you found. At least, she is aware of your pain, but like you said in so many words, it doesn't seem to matter to her. All she is thinking of right now is HERSELF and what's important to her. Hmmmm...where have I heard phrases like this before?? OH...yeah! The MB forums on infidelity and other marital troubles. <P>The seat in the truck was moved?? Now, HERE is where you start tucking away these little facts. Your wife didn't impress me as particularly tall in that photo, so one would have to ask why the seat was moved at all. Did you mean the seat back was reclined a bit? Uh oh...unless your W has a bad back and the trip to the hotel was a very long trip, I'd have to really wonder about that, too. <P>As for my own w/e...it's very strange. As I mentioned, a truly big event is just on the immediate horizon for me (and I had hoped for my H, too), and we are very awkward right now with one another. He's in a world of pain from a very bad back, which doesn't help matters any, and he is working too darned hard too many hours a week. Hopefully, after said "event", this will change for him and for us, M. I am just worried and anxious as to whether or not he is going to stay and try to make our marriage work or not. Will let you know more on this by mid Sept.<P>OK...I'm enjoying the day by myself, too, as he's at work again. He works every Sunday, but we'll see each other tonight when he gets home. <P>Off to the Y for a swim and some exercise now....<P>Hugs and prayers,<BR>Winny [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 26, 2001).]

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Mornin' Winny,<BR>Well I'll agree with the BS same as horse sh*t. Concerning the races, my wife is helping this JOA([censored] other *******) behind the scenes. It's an area only horse trainers and assistants can go. If you're not scheduled to be an assistant or your horse is nott racing, you can't get back there. wagering and the racing commission have pretty good security. So in short I would not be able to see her at all. But that wasn't my point(for her), my point was I love to se the horses run. If she was heading over there with this jerk, she could've asked if I'd like to go and they could drop me off at the gate...see what I mean, just a little thought that would made me feel better. Instead she came home from work(sweaty, hard work), took a shower doused herself with perfume and mascara then went to the races where she was just going to get nasty again?? I guess she had to smell good for him...She <BR>has a tack trunk at the barn (under lock and key) with only one key. This trunk issued to store important stuff for racing and what ever else she wants. This is my next objective...some how I have to get a copy of her key?????? it's not as easy as you think, her eyes are on them 24/7. Somehow I'll <BR>do it! I should've followed her last night to where he picked her up at...stupid me. All I envisioned is her hopping in his truck planting one right on the kisser....we used to do this and now I'm referring back <BR>to things her and I did...I can see them doing.<P>I guess it's normal for her to feel selfish, after all she is accusing me of being that way for quite a while, but she laid it on the line and I've learned how to expand to be a better husband. Monday has come, we're off to speak to an attorney this afternoon...she is showing no mercy at all. All I want is <BR>my wife back, for some stupid reason I can accept the fact, if indeed she had an affair, but only if she admits to it. If I find out she's been lying and hiding things, my heart is telling me to nail her and take it all! I wish something would smack her inthe ad to make think, "once M was the cat's [censored], maybe he still is??? Why do I want to leave him, is he just not for me or maybe I'm just being one sided and selfish...he has so much support, faith, love and great passsion for me and in what I'm doing, he had a very hard summer at work and I wasn't very supportive..."<P>The passenger side seat was moved(sorry) but he is the only person who sits in it this way??<P>Now you have my interest with this "truly big event" of yours, are the two of you looking fwd to it??<P>Have great day, great temp outside!!<P>M<p>[This message has been edited by Goinforbroke (edited August 27, 2001).]

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Hey, M!<BR>I was happy to see your post today; I've been praying for you all weekend long. And, I'm still praying for you for this afternoon and hope that you are able to keep your cool as best as you can. Not that I expect you'd do something rash or anything--just praying for some type of inner peace for you. As for my 'big event', I'll tell you more about it when it's over. I don't want to jinx it by telling about it beforehand. I'll know more in the next couple of weeks....<P>So, "his" seat was moved? Hmmm...I think I would have to ask her about that, if I were you. Make it generic, like, "I'm wondering why the seat was moved?" See what her response is. <P>M, it now seems to me that you have come to the conclusion that she is, indeed, attracted to this OM. (getting all primped just to go back and get dirty all over again?? Uh huh...right!) And, I could not agree w/you more: I am at that place right now with my H, too. IF he had an A, I am more than willing to forgive and move on with us. The hard part is getting the WS to even admit to it, much less desire to talk about it. All I know for sure is that the Truth will ALWAYS come out, eventually. It may take weeks, months or even years, but sooner or later, someone will talk.....some thing will be found...some action will happen and all of the 'proof' anyone would ever need is right there for all to see. <P>As for that trunk, here is a simple test: how about just coming out and asking her if you can see what's inside? IF she has nothing to hide, she should be happy to show you. IF she has ANY feelings left at all for you, she should be willing to allay your fears and show you. If she is being truly honest with you in her reasons for wanting to go, then she should gladly show you what's inside. After all, in a marriage, there should be NO secrets from one another, and you two are STILL legally married. Try these things on her and see what her reaction is. Dollars to doughnuts, she won't let you see the contents. Just a hunch--and I hope to goodness I'm wrong. but, like I said, "been there..done that, too" and have the scars to prove it.<P>I came home unexpectedly on Sat. and found my H with my cell phone. He looked very sheepish and said he was bringing it to me (I was at the hospital visiting my mom). Now, I could have raised the roof and a real ruckus for sure, but I didn't. Why? Because I KNOW I have done nothing wrong and have nothing whatsoever to hide. He is worried that I am fooling around on HIM now, sort of as a grudge match. Of course, I see it as he is feeling very guilty for what HE did, and is trying to manufacture a reason to be mad at me, sort of to justify his own behavior of the recent past. You know what?? I'm still not 100% positive he has stopped all contact with the OW, but there is truly no way I can find out short of calling her. And, would she be honest with me?? Nooooo! Of course not! So, I go along each day doing my Plan A and trusting/praying to God that things will work out for the best in the end. I have come a very long way, M, to the point of acceptance. That is, I will accept whatever the outcome is and move on with my life. Sure, it will be painful if I lose him for good, but it that's the way he wants it, (much like your W), then I can't force him to love me and/or want me.<P>I see you as in a very similar situation, M. My heart aches for you and for me, too, because we did NOT deserve this! Whatever problems that were there should have been talked out long before they got to this stage. We should have been given the chance to set wrongs right--and NO ONE deserves to be cheated on! I think it is one of the most dastardly and cowardly things a spouse can do to his/her partner.<P>Please, M, if you need to yell, scream, shout, vent or even show a positive emotions or two after your meeting today, come here and let it all out. These folks on this site are really wonderful and they have helped me a lot.<P>Talk to you later....good luck!<BR>Winny

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Well Win, Yelling, venting...how about gagging...7 years of decisons based solely on our future together...just thrown away like trash, women are evil...then again so are men?<BR> <BR>I went and retained an attorney yesterday...but fired her today, lol. We thought an attorney had to notarize a settlement agreement...I guess not and I'm not paying the usual ten thousand dollar for a ****ty divorce. On our way down to the attorney's I love busted, begged you name it, I feel so belittled by her. I'm becoming so mixed in emotions to the point of bipolarism. At one minute I'm saying how much I love her the next how much I hate her. She is being truly selfish! Last night I brought up the storm analogy she said well I guess our marriage wasn't strong enough. She told her mother yesterday "she's walking no mater what."<P>I wish she could write her side of the story, so your opinion could be unbiased. Maybe you would side with her, who knows??Another thing I wanted to touch on was her wedding ring, she's not wearing it and I can't figure out why. The band on her finger was my promise to her, to which I still hold true. Maybe it's one less thing for her to think about while she's hoping in the sack with this [censored]. I really wish I could find out where this *******s GF lived, I'd shove a picture of me in her car, maybe he'd be the one to find it, ahh sounds like a plan, LOL. I'm debating on how long I can set up surveillance at the farm on any given day... I'd have to start very early and finish late, where do I park??? LOL<P>One more bad idea for myself, I've got a friend here in my development who just recently separated...she attempted to rekindle the relationship with her ex but had no luck...I'm going to start picking her brain. She's a nurse downtown and has many opportunities open for people to volunteer in the hospital...I'm curious to see what type of response my wife would give me if one evening she asked what I was doing??? and I reply, going out to do some volunteer work with this woman you don't know...but don't worry I didn't iron my shirt, shave and spray on some good stink(cologne) for her, it for the people who need me. Now I'm just being immature...Look I only have 21 hours of work left. Envision this an angry gorilla sitting in the middle of the exhibit at a zoo...That's how I look right about now.<BR>I'm going to send you another pix of us and one of our horse...It's only 9am, I just finished a whole box of crunch and munch, God!<P>Have a nice on Winnnnnnnn, T-storms today, don't forget your rubbers(shoes). LOL<P>

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Dear M,<BR>I am so, so sorry for your pain. I wish there were some magic words, a phrase or a gesture that could just wipe it away. But you and I know there isn't. How about a cyber hug? {{{{M}}}}} <P>I was very tempted to remove my wedding rings a while back, but for another reason: I was not the WS, and my pain was so acute at my H's rejection of me that I removed them because I felt he had gone back on his promise to me. That lasted just one day, then I realized something. I realized that I had not gone back on my vows, and my heart was still full of love for him, so I put them back on. In a convoluted logic way, I think your W is saying "I now denounce my promises to M, and removing my rings is a symbol that I do not deserve to wear them, being they were a symbol of our promises TO EACH OTHER." She fell, M, not you. Frail human beings that we all are, she has given in to temptation and will one day pay for her sins (so shall we all). Unfortunately, it is the innocent bystanders (the BS's and children of cheating parents) that get hurt. But, I believe that EVERY pain we endure and get through can do one of two things for us. They will either make us far stronger or break our spirits. I choose to become stronger, because it IS a choice. <P>I think your idea to join a volunteer group at the hospital is an excellent idea! You will probably laugh, but guess what?? I was just invited to do the very same thing at the hospital my mom is in and I accepted! I am now volunteering for a little while each day in the Patient Activities/Recreation area of the rehab unit. It is so great to interact with others again, people who truly are in need of a little help and encouragement. I am meeting new people along the way (nurses, doctors, aides, etc.) who are wonderful folks, and my own bruised ego and esteem is coming alive again. It is in helping others that we truly help ourselves, M. I've found this out by founding the support group online for my ailment, but now it's even better. I am interacting "in real life" with others and the feeling is great.<P>As for spying on your W, I still think that is a good idea. Why? Because if this goes all the way to divorce, you need all of your ducks in a row. That is, you need the TRUTH, and facts to support your position. If you could get just one real fact (a picture, a letter, or eyewitness proof they are together), you will feel much better inside, believe it or not. Although it will hurt like hell, at least you will know exactly what happened to cause her break up with you. <P>As for her side/your side of things, there is still another side and that is the truth. The truth always lies somewhere in the middle of both people's sides, and right now, the truth is that she is willing to foresake your marriage. Fine. It's a big, wonderful world out there with LOTS and lots of great opportunities and possiblities. You won't feel that way right now, you need time to heal. That is why I keep on stressing be good to yourself, and honestly, M, ridding yourself of someone who does not love or honor you IS being good to yourself. It's a heck of a first step, but you can't take the second one without taking the first! <P>Right now, surround yourself with people who care about you, be it friends, relatives or even fellow volunteers. Most of all, give yourself time to calm down and realize that you are NOT alone. God is with you, every step of the way, providing you asked Him to be. And, I know you did. See? He has already opened one new door for you (the volunteer opportunity)!! So, take a chance and take that second step, my friend. You will not regret it!!<P>God bless you, dear M, and know you can always turn to me, too, for a shoulder to lean on or an ear to listen. We'll hold each other up through our trial-by-fire, and we will come out ahead!!<P>Much positive energy to you today, and of course, the famous "Winny hugs"! And..gonna look out for those T-storms, too!<BR>Winny<P>PS...<BR>Here's a cute one for ya! I just came across this and it seems to fit your W's situation with her OM:'<P>"She who wants a knight in shining armour....<BR>must clean up after the horse."<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 28, 2001).]

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Win, nothing much going on, the W locked herself out of the house after walking the dogs this morning, our horse came in 7th last night and her "not so great" week of the month is upon us andthe lovely realtor is coming today. With these factors wieghing on her, I'm going to try to be nice...Get on her good side, that's if someone hasn't beat me to it. <P>This week I'm going to become a Private [censored](I'll try). Too much leads me to believe there is something going on between her and the OM. I spoke with moy mother and told her all about the "stuff I've been doing and thinking"..she said "God, you mind is really working"<P>Well I've got to get some rest, post more later.<BR>Look at those fluffy cumulus clouds today on a perfect blue pallet...

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Hey, M...<BR>Glad to see your post today. I've been so concerned for you and praying you can hold up. YES..the sky and clouds are gorgeous today, and you are such a dear to point them out to me! I've had a down couple of days here (see my post on Emotional Needs, entitled "Help! Dr. Phil casualty here!") but today things are much better.<P>M, I was really happy to see you talked with your mother. Was she complimenting you or finding fault with you when she said your mind is working? I hope it's the former! You need all of the emotional support you can get from loved ones right now that you can possibly get. <P>As for your W, I think you will not be surprised at all when you find out "for sure" re: OM, possible A and all that. In fact, you will be surprised that you didn't come to this conclusion sooner (just like I did in my situation). Sometimes the hardest things for us to see are those that are right under our noses. Our heart gets in the way of our head trying to process all of the information, and things get so mixed up. Once the smoke clears, you'll be able to see things as they really are. Being "nice" to her is really Plan A'ing to some degree, and it shows you are a true gentleman. Hats off to you!!<P>As always, I wish you a good day today, M. Just keep those thoughts as positive as you can and centered on what's good for YOU right now. As I wrote in my other post, "we did not deserve what our WS's did to us, " and I stand by that 100%, Dr. Phill or no Dr. Phil! LOL!!<P>Hugs and smiles,<BR>Winny<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 29, 2001).]

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Winnytoo, What does that mean BTW? Did you get my pix in your Yahoo mail? <BR>Forgot to mention why my mother called, she was watching Dr. Phil on Oprha(s?) or Okra, who ever she is. I read your post, sorry to hear you feelings just jumped right back out of the closet. My counselor said i needed to relinquish all my bad thoughts to make room for new lovey dovy ones. <BR>She's right but how do we forget...i'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy! <P>Anywho, I just finished a nice booty rub, I mean body rub for my wife(mind is in the gutter). After wards we talked and "i" actually ended up on a good side (give me time and the OM issue will be back)...<P>...W is still barreling down the big D with a full head of steam, I just asked her to think about what i say and feel for right now...not what she is convincing herself to believe. See, her and i are only mid twenties, the military has afforded us the opportunity to do much more in life when compared to a 40 year old civilian person. We've interdicted narcotics, shot at boats, arrested fisherman, saved haitian <BR>and cuban babies for the perils of the ocean...my point is, my W may be going through an early mid life crisis??? <P>Well I'm off to our spare room, my new room. I feel as if I have to give her space, besides my dog's butt is now on my pillow, LOL.<P>Even though I'll regret it, today i'm going to look for some yellow flowers in a field of real green grass, maybe I'll take a picture and give it to my wife instead of killing the flower, maybe I'll just kill the flower. I think those colors just blend so well, bright blue sky, fluffy white clouds, bright yellow tall flowers and refreshing green grass..if I think like this I'll keep bad thoughts buried.<BR>Give it a try, and don't forget to say hi to those furry poop machines(your horse buddies).<P>BTW, I attempted to have a key made for my wife's trunk...the key is authentic..no one has then..Geez. Luckily I have lock picking tools at work.<P>Have a nice day Win,<BR>M

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HI, M!<BR>What does which mean? If you're referring to Dr Phil's remark, he was making the point that people who are through with us should be the targets of such honest statements. That is, an ex spouse, or ex lover who is permanently out of the picture. NOT someone like you or I, who are still with our mates (allbeit the may not share our feelings right at the moment)! This was one tiny detail I sort of overlooked, but now I understand why. The good old "trigger" effect [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Kudos on the body rub for W. I'm so happy she was amiable towards you!! That's ONE for your side! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] and one less for OM's! <P>How do we forget the bad gunk?? Honestly, I think time helps to dull the memory. We never really completely forget, but at least the pain seems to dim over time. With each of us, the time it takes is different, but it will be better somewhere down the road.<P>As for your life's experiences, yes, you might be right. Perhaps your W is going through some kind of identity crisis. Although only in your 20's, you both seem to have packed a LOT of living into those years. God bless you both! BTW, my H and I are older folks (43 and 53), although my heart is still quite young. I'm not in a rocking chair yet (grin!) and have no plans of setting up residence in one! There's too much of Life to enjoy and savor and I am simply glad to be alive.<P>Just keep on Plan A'ing, M. Love is such a powerful force, and if she even lets herself feel your love for just an instant, that's a huge plus. <P>As for my horse friends (No...I haven't checked my Yahoo email in a few days, but after typing this post, I will!), they are all around me! Such lovely creatures, and still munching away on apples, carrots and even celery that I offer them. I feel like I am living close to heaven!<P>OK, good friend. Please have a nice evening and I hope you find the flowers you are seeking. What a lovely idea! Instead of killing them (picking them), take a photo instead! You are quite the poet!<P>God bless, and many hugs!<BR>Winny<P>

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Mornin' Win,<BR>I was referring to you screen name "Winnytoo," what does it mean?<P>Let me tell you what came out of that back rub....she submitted the big D paperwork. What a B***h, pardon my French. My mother told me "if the W is numb to your pain and basically is calling it quits you have to start looking out for #1. Don't be stupid and say...oh, you can have everything, no, no I insist, etc.." For some reason, this led me back to the infidelity conclusion. W says she isn't stupid enough to do that (EA/PA) while we're married, so I can think whatever....she says she' not having an affair. So not intentionally, she is making my life hell...and I plan on paying her the same respects. I took a pillow I made for her on our forth anniversary, sunflower print, (flowers were the traditional gift) and chucked it out into the mud, my ring went with it. I told her I'm denouncing my promise also. What a roller coaster!!!<P>Here's what else I did, I wrote the presumed OM a letter, it's in your yahoo e-mail acct. (Please read through it) I don't know if I want to send it or not. I think it'll destroy their relationship in every aspect, I'm becoming bipolar, and I don't really want that(to hurt my wife). God, I feel like an intoxicated mouse in a lab, running around in five hundred directions. I plan on leaving her a copy, asking her to review it so she is not blindsided. Maybe I won't send it but say I did???<P>My mind is working so much day and night I awoke in a sweat last night, I guess my "Id" is becoming involved.<BR>Prior to finding out about her filing and me exploding I came home with some Lilac branches and a couple of sun flowers, did she acknowledge them...hell no she *****ed me out for e-mailing someone regarding a horse...only after the fact of mentioning it to her did she say thanks. <BR>Imp even back to my disorganized posts...no matter how many times I review it...it's still all out of wack!<P>20 hours of work left....AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH<BR>Take it easy Win, hopefully the past couple of days have been good to you.<BR>M

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Well Win, her drawers are empty, my truck is gone...she moved out. Spoke with police and threatened me with a restraining order so I'm going to back off the Adultery nonsense.<P>M-I-L is an attorney but for the state of NY and currently my wife is seaking counsel from her...and she wants to bury me I guess. <P>W won't even come over to take care of the dogs on Monday while i work..I hope my parents wil take them for the day, on tuesday I'll have to find an animal adoption shelter. I can't maintian them all by lonesome. This is really becoming hard to deal with, I wish it would al go away sooner than later. Have yo ever watched the movie "Fallen" with Michael Dougless...I feel as if I'm in his shoes.<P>I'll keep in touch, a 2000 sq ft home gets really lonely

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I came upon this thread and sat reading for over an hour, I was so hooked. GFB and Winny, I'm sure you've moved onto email, but I just wanted you to know I'm thinking of you and hoping things are ok. Hope you're treating yourself well GFB, and that things turned out the way you wanted them to, Winny. You both sound like such wonderful people.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cabbage:<BR><B>I came upon this thread and sat reading for over an hour, I was so hooked. GFB and Winny, I'm sure you've moved onto email, but I just wanted you to know I'm thinking of you and hoping things are ok. Hope you're treating yourself well GFB, and that things turned out the way you wanted them to, Winny. You both sound like such wonderful people.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Cabbage..<BR>What a lovely way to start my day!! Thank you for your very kind words and you sound like a very special and loving person yourself, btw! :-)<P>GFB, I am so sorry this has happened to you. As you can tell, I've been away all last week, which is why I haven't written. All I can tell you about that letter you wrote to the OM is this: a long time ago, an attorney friend of mine told me never to put anything in writing (such as a personal letter like yours) that you would not be willing to stand up and defend in court. That advice has saved me a world of grief over the years, mainly as I love to write and communicate with others in this fashion. If it were me, I'd keep that letter locked up in a safe place for future reference and just sit quietly by and watch any developments. I know you must be in a world of pain and deep emotional hurt, but please know that you WILL feel better as time goes along. Once our highly charged emotions have a chance to cool down a little, we can think more clearly. Your W has certainly 'made her statement' to you, and the best thing you can do is to get on with the rest of your life. I pray that you will find peace and contentment eventually and really, I know that you will. You have many fine qualities and a lot to offer a loving woman, so hang in there!! Also, please post back here from time to time and let us all know how you are doing.<P>As for me, I had a wonderful week last week. My "big event" happened, and now I will be secure in some areas for life. Although my body has undergone many difficult physical changes, my spirit remains strong and forward-looking. <P>As for my relationship with my H, even before said event, he was returning to his old self with me. Now that our horror-nightmare is over and we have some breathing room, his depression has really started to lift. We are treating one another much, much better and I am no longer afraid to think we will remain together. It certainly looks that way and for that, I am very, very happy.<P>Just a word to all readers/lurkers here:<BR>Sometimes, events happen in life that can cause a very deep depression in someone. If left untreated, this depression can wreck lives, including those of the person's loved ones as well. No couple should ever have to go through what my H and I did--a doctor's medical errors caused me to lose my good health forever, and in so doing, nearly ruined our very lives together. ALL of the symptoms of my H's depression mimicked those of a chating spouse: the withdrawal, the refusal to communicate or make love, the encapsulation and isolation, the secrecy and hiding of important documents and all the rest. <P>Be as sure as you can be that your spouse is cheating on you before you jump to any conclusions and lower the boom on him/her. Once accused unjustly, the words are very hard to take back and the resulting hurt feelings can last a lifetime. What I mean is, you can suspect, gather evidence and all that, but do not accuse or blame until you are reasonably sure cheating is what's taking place. I would have bet my bottom dollar that my H had an A, but now I see that the OW's crush on him may have flattered him when he was so vulnerable, but he did not comply with her hopes, wishes and desires. Even if he did, the point is that he came back to me and we are starting anew, both of us much wiser now. In my heart, I have forgiven him in case he did stray because I know that if he did, depression was the root cause. <P>Sometimes, the obvious is very elusive, so don't discount it. Like my momma always told me, treat others the way you want to be treated, and you will be all right. She was right this time, and my doing Plan A was the BEST "medicine" of all. God bless everyone on this site, and I'll check back here from time to time just to say hello. <P>Best wishes to all, always...<BR>Winny<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited September 10, 2001).]

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Cabbage, <BR>Unfortunately things are just spiraling down for me...I'm at the point where I hate my job and I can't stand sitting home without my wife, this is absolute torture...recently I've turned to the Bible. It's turning out that the only soothing moment I have is when I'm reading.<P>Haven't heard from Winny????

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Hi everyone. Been laying pretty low for a while. The thread I started seems to have gone off in a different direction. I've checked in time-to-time as I still get email notices when someone posts on this thread. To bring you up to date...nothing much has changed although I think we have been dancing on the edge of the cliff in terms of continuing our marriage. There is no one else in either of our lives and she says she still wants to stay with me. But the thought of intimacy with me (not just sex)is "wierd". She made a comment "like kissing my brother". Our counselor is away until the end of the month but I do not think she has been effective -- just sort of a third party listener. Maybe my expectations are more from her.... I am trying to be patient but unless I get some sort of indication that things are returning to normal then I will need to start looking at taking care of myself.<BR>I will watch this thread a little longer but will either turnoff the notification or start a new one. Thanks for listening and good luck to the others on this thread. Neil Young says it best in one of his songs..."only love can break your heart". <BR>

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alone-in-CNY:<BR><B>I am trying to be patient but unless I get some sort of indication that things are returning to normal then I will need to start looking at taking care of myself.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have one thing to say to you - THINK OF YOURSELF FIRST.<P>Go and read all my threads "My wife had an affair - I still want her".<P>It has taken me over a year, and my wife is still very hesitant to be intimate with me.<P>The last two months I have realized, without being cruel, that if I dont look after ME first, then nothing will improve. I have stopped running after my wife, stopped bugging her, stopped whining and have realized, that, at the worst, I will be on my own and be able to start over again.<P>I treat my wife politely and courteous but that is all - she is still in contact with her OM, after so many months and cannot see reason shy she should get him completely out of her life, even though she says "Its over".<P>Either way, whether there is someone else or not. you HAVE to realize that you, your sanity, your happiness comes first.<P>It has taken me over a year of torment amd trauma to realize that.<P>Do not be scared to start acting independently - it is for your own good.<P>Do NOT push her for intimacy, just do the opposite.<P>

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Thanks,<BR>I have been trying to give her the "space" she needs. She told me this past weekend she does not want a divorice and doesn't want to start start over with someone else -- we have basically spent 1/2 of or lives together. We have common interests and she says she enjoys going places with me. But she says I am "too familiar" and it is like I am a brother...so the thought of any type of intimacy is repulsive. I asked why I am always the one to request a "talk on our problems" (because if I do not, we would only talk about it when we were with the counselor) and she replied that she would rather avoid it and she is "annoyed" at some of the topics. She says she is good confronting other people's issues aand problems but not necessarily her own. Patience is very hard when you are not receiving any feedback....<BR>

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(I can finally post here after such a week - God Bless America)<P>GFB<BR>I'm very sorry things are "spiraling". Maybe they have to in order to get better? I know I spiral quite a bit in my marriage, can feel as down as can be. I try to focus on what I have, family, friends, health, anything but of course that doesn't mask it. I can only say that you deserve more, something she couldn't give you. Also that for some reason it's important for you to be alone at this time, in order to accomplish what you must in this life. Believe me, I am telling myself the same thing (although I'm not alone, I tell myself I must be in turmoil for a reason, to motivate myself, to become what I need to be). We don't accomplish much when we are content. We sit back, "fat and happy" so to speak. I must believe there are reasons for pain (particularly this week's), it is the only thing that comforts me. (BTW I found it funny you said you hadn't heard from Winny and she was writing at the same time as you [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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Hi Alone, M, and Cabbage..<BR>I just didn't feel much like posting after Sept. 11th. It was such a horrible thing that it made my own personal problems seem very, very pale by comparison. Like all Americans, I have been busy praying, and I have been volunteering here at the home level, trying to do whatever I can to ease the pain. <P>In fact, there is a good message in this: often, helping others is the best 'medicine' there is. I joined my local hospital as a volunteer and go there a few times a week to help out wherever I can. A member of the Y, I am now also singing up to volunteer there as well, helping kids to learn how to swim. The upshot is that my own problems, while still there, seem to be not as prevalent in my life lately. My attitude in general has changed, something my H has picked up on and he is looking at me in a whole new light. In fact, we have been so close lately (since the Day of Infamy 2001) that it's as if we both realized how lucky we are to still have each other. You see, both of us were in NYC just before the attack. I was there 6 days before, and my H, just 24 hours before. Since he works up in that area, you can imagine my relief when I heard he was OK. At the same time, he was feeling very worried about me, so far away. Having a national crisis like this really makes you stop and think, doesn't it?<P>I hope you all are doing better by now. Yes, it stinks to have someone you love reject you, but I learned that you really can go on and sometimes, it's really possible to get back together. All I know is that I was finally emotionally and mentally prepared for the worst--that is, if my H truly did not want me anymore, I was ready to go on. My own sense of self worth came back and I think that once that happened, he DID really look at me differently. <P>One thing this tragedy taught many of us (if not all) is that we are far stronger than we think we are. It's that spirit that keeps us going, no matter what.<P>Stay strong--have faith and believe that Life really is worth living, regardless of who does or doesn't love you. If you love yourself, that's enough of a good start.<P>Hugs to all and prayers that God blesses America now and forever...<BR>Winny<P><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited September 24, 2001).]

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I guess I have more of a question then any kind of advice. Is it possible that there is something physically standing in the way of your wifes physical rejection? <P>Menapause can do strange things to a woman, and make sexual desire diminish to almost nothing, also causing strange emotional reactions with the loss of harmones.<P>Just something to think about if it applies.<P>KatDoll

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there sure is something physical...another disrespectful man who has taken my place...my wife is off having fun because someone is sitting in my shoes right now and I don't know if the fun is emotional or physical. here i am lower than dirt...unfortunately my standards of relationships/living won't allow me to get a girlfriend to hang out with...I guess some of us have cooth(?) <P>GFB

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there sure is something physical...another disrespectful man who has taken my place...my wife is off having fun because someone is sitting in my shoes right now and I don't know if the fun is emotional or physical. here i am lower than dirt...unfortunately my standards of relationships/living won't allow me to get a girlfriend to hang out with...I guess some of us have cooth(?) <P>GFB

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GFB,<BR>I am so sorry, and I really wasn't trying to stir up more animosity or bad feelings for you. <P>And maybe I am confused, My reply had been for Alone-in-CNY. who was saying that his wife wasnt in love with him anymore.<P>Are you and Alone the same person?<P>KatDoll<p>[This message has been edited by KatDoll (edited October 04, 2001).]

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