My W told me this morning she is convinced she needs to move out with my two girls. On one hand she feels she is living her dream (nice house, good kids, H who loves her and is good to her etc. and she loves me). On the other hand, she feels our personalities and desires are too incompatible. She is a very happy go lucky, day at a time, social, free spirit. I am a controller, analyst, somewhat unsociable, critic. I don’t disagree with this. I have often had difficulty dealing with her free spirited behavior. I acknowledge the harm done by my controlling and critical behavior. There are things we both need to work on - especially me. The fact that she had an affair between last December and around April of this year is almost secondary at this point although she says this is a second reason for leaving - to get over the feelings she still has for the OM. I may be all wrong but I do believe the affair is over and she is feeling that this is the best opportunity she may ever have to end something (our marriage) that she is just not happy in. I’m the same guy she married 11 years ago but she is just not happy with me as a mate. She says she needs to see how happy she can be without me in her life and how hard it would be to make it on her own.<P>I have done some love busting since discovery in February but I have put a lot of effort into changing. I have made it very clear to her that I want our marriage to work. In the last 6 months I would consider myself a H that most women would be happy with. In the last two weeks, I have been close to ideal. I am really trying. But it is not paying off. I tell her to give us time. She is convinced that time will not help. She talked to Harley once almost two months ago. He said we should be in plan A. He told her Plan B is for abusive relationships or some other circumstance (she couldn’t recall his words). She felt she should be in Plan B for the latter reason. He disagreed. He told her to get and read Surviving An Affair. She got it but has shown little interest in reading it or continuing counseling with him. I believe she is looking for someone to support her way of thinking. <P>I told her I am totally opposed to her moving out. That I feel it would lessen our chances of working through this. She said she would not want me to feel any other way. I told her I felt there were other alternatives. I told her I thought we needed to be seeing a counselor to help us get through this. She is scared and doesn’t want to go through with this bet just doesn’t see any other way.<P>Do any of you have any advise for me? I don’t know how much more I can take. <P>Sailor<BR>

When I first found out of my H's affair I wanted him out of the house that night..and would have gladly packed (or tossed) everything out. He said along with mulitudes of apologies that he was not going and that we could work it out. I thought and said "Well if you wont go I will". Neither of us went anywhere and we are slowly making recovery. After calming down to a low boil I realized that there was no way that I could have let him leave nor I leave. We still have a 13 year old at home and I certainly know that this would have destroyed her. Please tell her to THINK OF THOSE CHILDREN first! Put your problems between you two only and don't involve them and it WILL INVOLVE them if she leaves. I dont know how old your children are but it affects ANY AGE child. We also have a 21 year old at college and she calls me daily to make sure everything is ok. Neither of our children know "what" happened. I sat both of them down and just said that we were having some problems, but that we were working on resolving them. <P>I am an older lady and firmly believe in the old saying "out of sight out of mind" and most problems cant be resolved from afar!<P>Will keep you in my prayers and trust in the Lord as he will show you the way!

Thanks Star<BR>We have two girls. One 15, from my Ws previous marriage (but like mine since she has been with me since she was one and a half), and one 9 that is ours. My W told my 15 year old about the affair 4 months ago. She acts indifferent and, like her Mom, doesn't like any form of confrontation. My 9 year old knows there are significant problems. She clings to my W like she is afraid of loosing her. My W shows both of them a lot of love and affection which is good. So much so, though, that there is hardly any room for me. I love them both very much but I know I would loose them. <P>Your suggestion is appropriate because my W does not want to hurt our girls. They come first in her life - yes, over me - W has reluctantly told me this. So I will make sure she is aware of the negative affects on them that moving would have - not in a guilt provoking way but more in awareness way (at least I'll try to). Understand though that part of my Ws reason for leaving is to protect the girls from me and from having to be exposed to the demise of our marriage.<BR>

You both are on the same page as I am. I really regret allowing my wife to move out. She moved out about 2 wks ago, and jumped right into the affair. Since she decided about separating she was home for 4 weeks and had made plans to move. I thought I could not handle her continued lies/secrets about OM, even though she pulled back some, so I told her I would help her financially move out earlier if needed. Well, I was being naive. She kept saying moving out was to get away from tension and to sort things out. We have 2 1/2 yr old, who now is spending halftime with parents. I really should have put up with the living together/separate time. Now I feel her distancing herself even more from our marriage. Sailor keep working on yourself, but keep your wife around to see the changes. Let her know you will give her space in the home. But don't let her move if you can help it.

Thanks Izzy<BR>I read your post right after posting this and also thought about how similar this appears. You are just a little ahead of me. We went separate ways today (her with the kids) and when I got home, we talked for a couple minutes. I told her I was miserable. She said "sometimes I just want to pretend none of this is really happening". I said that is fine with me - lets do it. She gave me a big hug. Yea, I'm feeling a little better. I think there is hope for keeping her here. But we are in trouble. Thanks for your advise. My gut tells me not letting her go is the right thing. But I had quite a range of emotions today from "just let her do what she wants and let her come to her own conclusions" to wishing I had someone to be close to when I would see love displaying their affection in public.

Hi sailor, I agree with you. It's much easyer to work things out from the inside. However be carefull of the way you try to accomplish that. She needs to feel that she is in control of herself and the situation,making her loose that might not be as good as all that. I suggest you phrase your sentences carefuly and that leave her a way out - eve though you don't want her to take it - people do so much better when they feel they are the ones deciding!<BR>Reminding her of the children welfare might be a good idea as well, it might stop her and nudge her to think, but again, be carefull of how you say it, nobody likes to feel forced to a decision even when it is the right one.<BR>You seem more optimistic on the second post, I'm glad. When we are thinking positive there's more chance of postitive things happening.<BR>I'll be thinking of you. tell us how it's going.<BR>Kat

Kat1<BR>Thanks. This is good advise. I like being in control but over and over I keep telling myself I’m not here. This is one of the things that hurts so much. I have told myself many times it will be better for this to have been her decision. I asked her the other day if she felt trapped or like she was in a cage. She said no but I think she does. The logical options are so obvious - stay. But her emotions say go, or at least give it a try. Yes, it is good to be positive. Sometimes you grab onto those little finger holds. Sometimes they are all that you have to give you any hope.<BR>Sailor <BR>

Sailor,<P>Dr. Harley has stated repeatedly that situations like this (wanting to separate) usually just means that the spouse just wants to be able to spend more time with the affair partner more conveniently.<P>I know, the affair is over. I also have some ocean front property in Nebraska that I would like to sell you (grin). Her needs were not being met, she had a fling to get them met, now all of the sudden she wants no one around to meet her needs at all. I don't think so.<P>I think her excuse of the personality conflict is just a cop out. She wants to have fun. That's the crux of the problem. She had fun during the affair (and probably wants to continue it) and she sees the marriage to a responsible decisive man as too serious and dull. Being a free spirit, you probably seem more like a parent than a lover, so she is rebelling. She will later regret this when she sees that her children are scarred. She thinks "this is a good time to leave", that's a big clue, she thinks she's still young enough to be attractive, i.e., she's definitely planning on having a lover. She will come to regret this too, her beauty is fading.<P>If you can make her laugh, relax, or see the other side of you that just likes to have a good time, she may come to her senses. Since she is a free spirit, the realities of life are sure to hit her soon (irresponsible with finances, career, parental responsibilities, etc.) and she will miss her Rock, that man she betrayed.<P>Make sure she sees that you can be a fun, laughing, good time guy when you have some free time. I have a good friend who was in a similar situation. He got impatient, divorced, immediately remarried, and now both he and his ex-wife are in worse shape. He's saddled with a lot of stepkid issues, she's a single parent that her kids are furious at for causing the divorce by cheating on the father.<P>If he could have be less of a "parent" and more of a fun partner, the trouble might have passed after the affair. <P>Her world will come crashing down eventually. Make sure she has reason to run to you when it does. Good luck.<BR>

cuckold- not sure but I think your a guy. Either way you got my life right on the mark about my wayward wife. Though my wife is still young (31), I think she is feeling exactly what you are talking about. Us stable solid husbands tend to be thought of as boring/dull maybe because we are the Rock. She experienced being "in love" and "passionate" and "new relationship giddiness", so she wanted to separate to "sort things out". During her last week I figured out it was all about the OM (based on the Harley books), but it was too late for me to give her the option of staying in the house. I am trying really hard to be patient and weather the storm (affair), and to learn from all this. I am doing Plan A, and really being happy and fun around her when we talk or see each other. I am waiting for the crash (boy that sounds morbid), but it is my only chance to rebuild my marriage. Our mutual friend (psudo counselor) told me yesterday, right now I have no chance (ugh!) confirming how emotionally deep she is into her affair.

Sailor,<P>I wish I had some great words of wisdom...I don't know a lot, but I think Cuckold is absolutely right...<P>"If you can make her laugh, relax, or see the<BR>other side of you that just likes to have a<BR>Since she is a free spirit, the realities of life are sure to hit her soon (irresponsible withfinances, career, parental responsibilities, etc.) and she will miss her Rock, that man she betrayed."<P>I really see this as true (thanks cuckold)...She simply can't run away from reality, it ALWAYS catches up. The thing is she might think this will make her happy but when she realizes that no matter where shee goes or what she does, reality is still there, who will be the one who stood by her? YOU!! HANG IN THERE !!<P><BR>This weekend I spent about 30 hours of uninterupted time with my H...we laughed, we talked, we were silly, I saw some things about him that I hadn't seen before...and I thought...wow, there are those fire like feelings I had had for him in the past...I looked in those beautiful eyes and thought God, he is handsome...well, anyway...you are doing the right things. Again hang on..she'll see this...the mistake she would make by leaving.<P>good luck Sailor, I'll say a prayer for you guys...<P>-janet<BR>

izzy,<P>I just wanted to say I think your friend is wrong...I just turned 30 yesterday...and all those things you mentioned about your W...I am familar with it all, believe me...<P>You are doing well! Things got mundane in my relationship with my H too. He is something of a work-manic. This weekend was another confirmation to me that it doesn't have to be that way. I feel also that I have been so immature over this last year... but I've learned so much, and I am so thankful that my H was my 'ROCK.' He loved me when I was unlovable....amazing!<P>Hang in there ok?<P><p>[This message has been edited by rjr #2 (edited August 30, 1999).]

Hey Sailor,<P>My heart aches for you man. I know exactly what you're feeling because i'm in the same place. My W of 19 years feels we need to separate because she wants "to be free." Claims that she has these feelings because she never lived on her own and went from living with a controlling mother to being married to me. You guessed it, i'm a controller too. Or, so i'm told. Of course the fact that she's a conflict avoider and has no idea of how to negotiate in marriage gets left out of the argument. Not that i didn't have my faults. I did most certainly neglect her, but she's now seen 7 months of me practicing a changed lifestyle. I mean, i think i've been writing the manual on being the ideal H and father. Sadly, it's apparently not enough. <P>She sees the OM a couple times a week at the workplace and i've told her that any reconcilation won't happen as long as he's around to rekindle the feelings of the affair. But, like you the affair seems almost secondary now. She says it's over, but even if the physical part is, there's still the mental part that is certain to get new life every time she sees him.<P>I've talked her out of leaving at least 3 times by bringing up the children, our christian faith, the marriage vows, etc, etc. It hasn't worked. So, i'm now going along with a recommendation found in the book Love Must Be Tough, by Dr James Dobson (believe he's the author). He says you have to open the cage door and let happen what happens. Maybe the trapped party will return and maybe they won't. Only one fact is clear. You can't control the outcome. You may influence it, but you can't control it. Only they can. <P>In lieu of her moving out into an apartment, i've offered to consider moving in with my parents and letting her stay in the house. However, i can't find anyone (friends, members of support group) who agrees i should do this. All say if she wants to leave, let her do the leaving. Your (or anyone's) comments are welcome here.<P>Don't know much i can offer except encouragement to keep being the ROCK. I am a person of faith, and that faith tells me that God has a plan for my life. I find comfort in knowing this and it helps me not to worry as much about my situation. It's out of my hands.<P>

Ron, <P>My heart was crushed this morning when I read your post. I thought things were going a little better for you. I am so sorry for what is happening. This is a critical time for you. I wish I had some wonderful advice that would make everything better, but I can only offer you my experience. <P>Your situation reflects mine of 9 months ago. That is when my W told me all the things that many of us betrayed hear. With those words, I also heard "I want to move out. I want space to figure all this out. I want some freedom." All the begging and pleading that I did simply made matters worse. The canyon between us seemed to erode and caused further distance. I finally succumbed and agreed to help her find a place to live. I thought a lot about whether or not I should move out instead of her. We felt that since she was the one who felt this need for freedom that it would be best for her to go and I stay with the kids. Our mutual decision was to not disrupt the lives of our kids too much. Well, I found a place for her. We it came right down to it, she just dropped the subject and stayed. I think she realized that moving out would have caused serious hurt to the kids. <P>Ron, my only suggestion is that you don't go down without a fight. That fight is fought with unconditional love. Give like you have never given before. Show your W your love for her in as many ways as she will allow. Show her what a great day you are to your daughters. Your W is going to think long and hard about what this is going to do to them. Whether you are controlling or not, the constant influence of a loving father around the house is a major break that your W will be causing. Ron, you may want to suggest that your W move into a separate room in the house instead of moving out. That will give her a sense of her own space to work things out. It will also keep the family in tact. Your girls will have both parents around. And your W and you can slowly work on your marriage and she can come to see the changes in you that are taking place. <P>If your W is bound and determined to go, there is nothing you can do to make her stay. You can only show her the mistake she is making by leaving. Not only will she be breaking up a marriage, but she will be breaking up a family.<P>I know your W probably isn't willing to read anything, but I have one book suggestion. It was the only book that my W would read during this whole time. It's called "Anniversary: A Love Story - by Michael Adamse." Here is a short overview of the book : "Though they love each other, Richard and Laura are filing for divorce because of incompatibility. When Richard's beloved mother Sarah dies, he flies out to the funeral. After spending a few days with his grieving father Christopher, Richard flies home, knowing his own problems await him. Before leaving, Christopher gives Richard a gift to be read on the plane ride home. His father has given him several of the letters exchanged between him and Sarah every anniversary day during their forty-nine years together. As he reads the letters, Richard begins to put his own marital woes in perspective. However, will he try to reconcile with Laura, and if he risks opening up his heart and soul to her, will she agree to start over again? THE ANNIVERSARY is one of the best novels of the year. Using fiction as a springboard, Dr. Michael Adamse has written an extremely entertaining yet motivational tale on the state of marriage. Though some readers will object to some of the solutions, everyone will say that this primer is one of the top ten books of the year. "<P>Ron, the book is not very long and the primary theme is commitment. The couple suffered through infidelity, the loss of a child, and other marriage hardships. Through it all they never gave up on one another. That's the idea I wanted my W to realize. Marriage is going to have some really tough times, but if we stick it out and work together on it, we can make it and our marriage would be better. Maybe your W would read it too. <P>Hang in there Ron. If there is anything thing I can do, please let me know.<P>God bless you and I'm praying for you.<P>SHA

Sailor,<BR>perhaps this will help <P>Closer To Believing<P>I am closer to believing<BR>Than I ever was before<BR>On the crest of this elation<BR>Must I crash upon the shore<BR>And with the driftwood of acquaintance<BR>Light the fire to love once more<BR>I am wind blown.. I am Times.<P>To be closer to believing <BR>To be just a breath away<BR>On the death of inspiration<BR>I would buy back yesterday<BR>But there's no crueler illusion<BR>There's no sharper coin to pay<BR>As I reach out.. It slips away.<P>From the opium of customs<BR>To the ledges of extremes <BR>Don't believe it till you've held it<BR>Life is seldom what it seems<BR>But lay your heart upon the table<BR>And in the shuffling of dreams<BR>Remember who on earth you are.<P>I need me<BR>You need you<BR>We want us.<P>But of course you know I love you<BR>Or what else am I here for<BR>Only you not face to face<BR>But side by side for evermore<BR>And I need to be here with you <BR>For without you what am I <BR>Just another fool out searching <BR>For some heaven in the sky<BR>Take me closer to believing <BR>Take me forward lead me on<BR>Through collision and confusion <BR>While there's life beneath the sun<BR>You are the reason I continue<BR>So near for so long<BR>So close yet so far away.<P>I need me<BR>You need you<BR>We want us to live forever<BR>Don't let the curtain fall<BR>Measure after measure<BR>Of writing on the wall<BR>That burns so brightly<BR>It blinds us all.<P>I need me<BR>You need you<BR>We want us to be together<BR>On Sundays in the rain<BR>Closer than forever<BR>Against or with the grain<BR>To ride the storms of love again.<P>So be closer to believing<BR>Though your world is torn apart<BR>For a moment changes all things<BR>And to end is but to start<BR>And if your journey's unrewarded<BR>May your God lift up your heart<BR>You are wind blown<BR>But you are mine<BR> .<BR>(By: Emerson Lake & Palmer)

Sailor, have you tried surprising her by not acting the way she is expecting you too? She thinks she knows you so well.A little impredicability might help. Can you find something silly or outrageous to do? Will you be confortable doing it?<BR>criticism is good only when it's constructive, and you might find that if you can losen up in the control thing, you'll end up having more control than ever. <BR>By the same token, she can learn to enjoy the things that come with being an organized person, and more down to earth.<BR>Oposites do complement each other quite well when they find the way to understand each other, and how it works together. <BR>COmpromising seems like a great way to do this. Reaching up to the midle helps things not to be so different.<BR>You might even be able to joke about your differences instead of fetting upset by them. Me and my H do that all the time. We refuse to let our differences upset us, and enjoy them instead.<P>Take care<BR>Kat<BR>

Thank you all so much. I really believe you people and this place are two ways God answers prayers. My W seems pretty happy today. It really is a shame all this is going on. I love her so much. Went windsurfing this afternoon - doing something for myself. This might seem a little selfish but I did a lot more of it when we met 15 years ago and she has always encouraged me to (in a very positive way). This is one of the things I have given up - to stay home and be a good husband and father. But I think it has had a smothering effect. But guess what I was thinking about planing around - some of the things you all have written (that I read just before leaving work at noon).<P>Cuckhold, it is certainly tempting to agree with you about her just wanting to continue the affair. I have thought a lot about that possibility. I know you are pretty convinced (where does Harley say this? I have all but one of his books). I am very tempted to believe this and feel I am guilty of denial not to. But for several reasons I do question it. I am tempted to confront her about it because it does make me angry and just kills me to think she would still be lying. To support some of your thoughts, she is very attractive and has a very good figure for 38. And then I’m 51. I guess I have become dull. We have had some major trouble over the time I have devoted to this thing I am typing on. I have made myself a list of other things. Some I can do something about and others I can’t. Anyway, thanks greatly for the warnings and advise.<P>Hey Janet. I almost hated to post this disappointing bit of news because of the encouraging thread I had going with you and SHA. Please check out my response to you about the kids and bring it up to date - If you have a minute. Of all the positive things I said about kids, one hit is not being able to spend 30 hours of quality time with your H. That was fantastic. I’m really happy for you. I bet that made for a treat thirtieth. Thanks for your prayers Janet. <P>Nlitend - My heart goes out to you. You have several good points which I’ll heed. I too have thought about moving. That would be so much more convenient and cheaper (since our girls will be with her). But that just can’t be right. If separating is her choice, she needs to endure the realities of what it will be like on her own. I do agree with you (and others) on not denying her the ability to leave. I guess I need to tell her I don’t agree, it will hurt me, I feel it will hurt our girls (irreversibly), and I feel it will lessen our chances for rebuilding a relationship but I will not stop her and I will not show anger or hostility. I am afraid of doing this but I do think it needs to be done. Maybe I should make a less dramatic statement by saying I "the last thing in the world I would want would be for her to leave but I want her to know she doesn’t have to be afraid of leaving.<P>Thanks Sir. I kind of figured I’d hear from you. As always you are so articulate and encouraging. Today after work, I was feeling kinda down because now, on top of all the other stuff I am suppose to be correcting (and doing it), I’m suppose to be this fun guy to be around too. I was thinking I just don’t know if I can. This is just asking too much. But you have weathered a little bigger storm and are coming out of it. You really do give me hope again. I’ll give this everything I have got. And thanks for the book suggestion. I’ll try to find it.<P>Couelle - It does help. Thanks. It is comforting there are so many who are so willing to share their time and give so much.<P>Kat - you are right. I have spent too much time moaning and groaning and feeling sorry for myself. I am a person that doesn’t like to draw attention to myself or be phony. Your suggestions parallel Cuckhold’s and I do plan to try and reflect a more upbeat and positive attitude. Thanks.<P>Sorry this has been so long. I really do appreciate all you input. I’ll keep you posted on progress.<P>Sailor <BR>

Sailor,<P>I found the reference you asked for where Harley says that the excuse for separation to "sort things out" is almost always simply lying through their teeth to be with the lover on a more convenient basis.<P>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5059_qa.html<P>Back to my friend, his wife was his age but looked much much younger than him. He wanted her to play "wife", you know (obey, heal, fetch, roll over, stay, commit) and she rebelled because he seemed more like her controlling parent than her equal partner husband.<P>I was going to ask how old your wife was but I didn't want to blow my theory. Research has shown that women are most vulnerable to a female version of middle age crazy at the ages of 35-37. 38 years old is mighty close though, so take heart, this is a typical case that is very common.<P>My friend's wife was in that age range at the time, and their case was just like the study showed. Since this is the most vulnerable age for a woman, maybe that will lessen the hurt for you.<P>As for the age difference, don't sweat it and don't compete. Your goal is to show yourself as being fun. You don't have to be the god of sex or 25 years old to be fun. Be yourself, but show her that "Ward Cleaver" does have a fun side too.<P>My friend grew impatient with his cheating wife and her young lover. There are scores of women ready to give their bodies to a "Rock" who will "commit", and he got mad and married on the rebound. That's an easy way to restore your pride but it's usually a very bad alternative in the long run.<P>Do you know what happened with my friend right after he remarried? His ex-wife called because life had kicked her in the crotch and all he could say was "you're not my wife anymore, I cannot help you" and she had nowhere to turn. He hung up and dealt with his new stepkids.<P>Be patient. Be fun. Don't take the easy way out.<BR>

Thanks Cuckhold<BR>Thanks for the reference and the address. I do believe you are correct about my Ws vulnerability at her age. In the last two years she has begun dressing in a more provocative way and been more flirtacous. As for your friend, I am certainly not ready to abandon ship but I can imagine how her leaving could cause my attitude to change. We all have certain needs and mine certainly are not being met now. What is ironic is that this is both my Ws and my second marriage. We both suffered from wayward spouses in the first. And we both have always been very open about how embarrased we are to be divorsees. I certainly don't want this to be my second. I guess your friend regrets having moved on?

Sailor,<P>I've moved away and haven't talked to my friend in a while, but his marriage looks like the Brady Brunch, I'm sure it's not his kids ideal scenario. I'm sure his ex-wife has kicked herself 10,000 times for not thinking long term though.<P>Buddy, your wife is on a temporary high and all she can see is that fading spotlight. She's on stage and putting on a grand finale...she's not thinking straight. People on a new love high don't want to "spoil the magic" by considering messy things like logic, common sense, and past lessons. She's not in the mood to listen to anyone. Hang in there, her balloon will burst.<P>She's obsessed with trying to get attention from men in general. Why would the dreamiest guy in town commit to a 38 year old woman with 2 kids who cheats on her husband? Dream on, lady. Drop that hint in passing, it might get the wheels in her brain turning on some other cold hard realities.<P>If you get lonely and have a fling, it might wake her up but it also might lead to a marriage on the rebound which rarely work. Wounded egos can't be trusted. If you can be patient, you can win. Being with an attractive woman 13 years younger and staying with the 2 kids is a hard destination for you to pass up. Go for it.<BR>

Hi Sailor,<P>Thanks for your words on the kids issue. Yeah, it's a 'someday' thing not a 'never' one. <BR>Also thanks on your encouragement and the Happy Birthday...we did have a nice weekend. Surely he is not an eighth as lucky to have me as I am to have him. I am not a prize, but he seems to see something there so...<P>I wish so badly that things were going better for you. Cuckold's words drive things right to the bone with me. I read it and wonder...was that me? is that still me? Looking for attention, and that's it? How does low self esteem play into the picture? Is the need for attention a reaction to it? <P>One of my greatest faults is the fact that I tend to gather my self worth, and feelings (at any particular time) from the reactions people have to me. If people in my life are happy with me, I'm thrilled. If they are mad or disappointed (warranted or not) my mood changes in a like manner. Has she been like this too?<P>So, perhaps Cuckold is right about your W... The OM in my case said similar things to me. That I was just looking for attention. The realization that, to one degree or another, he was right..well it kills me. It's a terrible feeling when you discover something true about yourself, hate it, and have to eat it so to speak. It is humbling.<P>Again, I'm with Cuckold ...Be fun, make her see what she will loose. Easier said than done I'm sure...<P>I wish I could offer some other advice... but will be looking to see your update.<P>Hope all is going better with you too Cuckold..thanks for your honest, direct points of view. They've been very helpful to me.<P>-janet<BR><p>[This message has been edited by rjr #2 (edited August 31, 1999).]