Whenever my husband does not agree with my opinion or my feelings he instantly becomes violent. Screaming, throwing things calling me names, putting me down--all in an attempt to get me to shut up and drop the subject. How do I get to have the dignity of voicing my opinion or my questions without having him fly into a violent rage?

Have you talked to him about how this makes you feel? I wouldn't be able to put up with behavior like that-it's abusive as far as I'm concerned. Maybe he needs to take an Anger Management class seek some sort of counseling.
I'm sorry if that sounded harsh but that just isn't healthy for you.

Dear Praying,

Susan has a point that your husband's temper tantrums are not good for you.

I am reading a book on temper tantrums, and how it is important to get them under control as children and adolescents, so that they don't carry over into adulthood.

My 25 year old son, living at home, uses this tactic more than is healthy. My phrases, are do you think this is a good idea to have a habit for being recalcitrant when a team mate makes an easy suggestion?

My wife uses temper tantrums occasionally also. What I try to do, is to have my Wish list honed down in advance. One reason the book gives for temper tantrums, is making too many requests, in too short a time frame.

You might set up the mood for requests a little bit more thoughtfuly, in advance. There are some articles on Negoitating in Marriage Builders, and they recommend setting up a time for easy talking.

Usually, I try to think out my wishes, so that I have a request simplified, and my wife can either say yes, no, or negotiate. That is why I took the name Quipper, because my wife has a very short attention span, so if I don't get the thought complete in a few words, it is all over.

My wife started in on me the other day, and I said, well I want you to listen to me describe the situation, that I see as a potential problem, and then I want to hear your ideas, in a polite manner. You want me to hang the blinds for you, so first let me hang the blinds, then we agree that you will listen to my concerns peacably. She agreed, and it worked, to an extent.

Best Wishes

Quipper,
Married 28 years and still struggling

<small>[ August 11, 2003, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Your husband is being abusive. You have every right to voice your opinions and your feelings without being attacked by his violent words. You can't change him though, it isn't possible to "fix" another human being like that. All you can do is set boundaries and let it be known to him that you will not be disrespected by him like this anymore. When he starts and angry fit about something say to him "I will not be treated with such disrespect" and then walk away from him or if he disagrees with something you've said then say "I see that is your opinion but it's not mine" and then walk off. You can't try to explain or defend yourself because that just puts him on his own defensive and he won't stop until he makes you agree with his point of view. If you allow him to continue to treat you like this then it'll only get worse over time. I know because I've been there for a very long time and have only recently begun to set boundaries. Without boundaries then people will walk all over you because they know that they can, there is nothing to stop them from doing so.

Dear Jade,

I read a little of your other posts, and you have read some books that I have not read. The tendency to have temper tantrums is natural, and has to be socialized out.

So we can help in the socialization of others. Not that that has to be a primary goal, but when we are objecting to anger, we are helping the individual become a better member of society.

Can you share some of your successes with setting boundaries. Could you give some examples?

I walk out if things get too tense. My son asked "Where are you going, dad?" as I drove away at 12:30 AM. I said, "I am going to for a RIDE." I supppose that is setting a boundary. My wife had started in about how she could boost me out of the basement, and not help with the housepayment. That argument is not over, but I had a peaceful few hours, and came back at 3 AM when she was asleep. My wife was yelling at me the next morning about her red sweater.

I have several people in my life who use anger as a way to negotiate with me. Sometimes I find that swtiching the subject is a way to set a boundary.

My son is recalcitrant and slow on the uptake, and refuses to help with hardly any chores. He is 25 years old, going to College, and living at home. He is a spoiled brat. My wife sometimes agrees, when she is not trying to spoil him further.

I changed the subject on my son today, when I suggested that he might want to improve his teamwork skills. He responded that he thought he had excellent team work skills. I said "I am glad you agree that it is a good idea to have good teamwork skills."

He was without words. For a few seconds.

Once someone begins using impoliteness as a means of discussing a subject, I think it is important to quickly switch the subject to the issue of how we are negotiating.

"You seem to have some feelings on this issue, can you let me know what your feelings are about this?" This is directing the discussion from the point I was originally trying to make, to the feelings that my teammate has about the subject area.

Maybe I should collect a list of phrases to use in switching subjects when anger is threatended. Some people naturally command respect, but I have to work at it. I am a dreamy sort of a person, naturally.

This subject thread is a challenge for me, so I will return.

Best wishes,

Quipper,
Married 28 years and still struggling

Hi Quipper!

Yes I have very strong opinions about verbal abuse. There are 3 LB's that I have opinions on. All 3 that I am going to talk about are a means to control by one person over another.

Disrespectful judgements imo are used by a person in order to make another person feel inadequite. IE: Partner says "that is stupid for you to think that" and imo the way I take that is that they are saying quite simply "you are stupid and I am smart therefore you better come over to my side because I know what is right". Just because they disagree doesn't mean that the other person is "stupid" but that makes it easier for the controlling person to make you see it their way because then you begin to think well gee they say I'm stupid all the time so I must be and then when you feel low or inadequite you will tend to believe what they are saying as "the right thing". It's a means by them to control and overpower imo.

Selfish demands come next and imo says that they want what they want and don't give a hoot whether it is something that you want or not. IE: Partner says "I want dinner cooked and on the table at 6:00pm". Now he/she hasn't even considered the fact that the other person works until 5pm and that means that they have to rush home from work and immediately begin the chore of getting dinner ready. They don't consider that the other person may want to come home and relax and unwind for a 1/2 hour. It says "I want it and I want it my way and I don't care if it is an inconvenience to you." It says everything revolves around what I want and there is no room for compromise. It's control.

Angry outbursts/temper tantrums happen when the person doesn't get there way by disrespectful judgements or by making selfish demands. It is meant to make you feel as though something bad will happen if you don't do as they say. IE: Partner says "It's 6:15pm where the hell is my dinner, I've worked hard all day and I am hungry and I am hungry now. Why do you do this to me? and blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda." I say blah blah blah because that is what I hear after a certain point. You know how on the Charlie Brown cartoons when one of the children is on the telephone and all you can hear of the person on the other end of the convo. is this muted muh muh muh sound? Well that is what I begin to hear when an angry outburst takes place after I've heard mean nasty things, I tend to tune out and ignore their tamtrum. So in reality the angry persons point never gets across completely because I find it annoying and disrespectful.

Setting boundaries is a little difficult after you've allowed these behaviors to occur for many years because the person doing the LB's are used to getting their way in that manner. But that doesn't mean it is doomed to fail it just means that one may have to clarify their boundaries until the other person sees that their controlling behavior doesn't work anymore.

In the case of disrespectful judgements (name calling and cutting down your beliefs and your own personal opinions) If someone says "you're stupid (or anything nasty and hurtful)" then you could set a boundary by saying I will not be called names and hurt and to set that boundary you would need to stress to them that that hurt you and you will not be treated that way. If it turns into an angry outburst/temper tantrum then you simply state that until they can discuss the matter in a normal tone of voice that you are done listening and then walk away or leave the house if you must and then come back and discuss it later once everyone has chilled out and calmed down. There has to be a consequence to their bad behavior imo otherwise they will continue to use bad behavior to get their way. Selfish demands have no place in a relationship! You can request something nicely to your partner and then discuss it if you have disagreements about it but demanding something without regard for the other persons feelings is disrespectful and downright rude and completely selfish. I always say if you ask me nicely then more than likely I will be willing to fullfill your request but if you demand it of me I am likely to avoid it like the plague because I feel that a demand devalues me.

In a physically abusive situation though, these things most likely will not work because the abuser HAS to have total control ALL the time. They can never be wrong because then they lose control and if they lose control then you had better look out because then you will get it tenfold and then they will gain back that control and then some. If someone is name calling and belittling and demeaning you very agressively with a loud voice and in your face then all you can do is walk away. If you try to say I am not thus and so or say that they are taking it the wrong way then that just leaves the door open for them to prove that they are right. Defending and explaining shows them that you are trying to prove yourself to be right and you being right would make them wrong and that means losing the control. I do think that change is possible but it is very difficult with an abuser if they don't want to change. They need to control another person because they lack something within, there are emotions within that they don't want to deal with and they bury those emotions by overpowering someone else. It makes them feel more important when they overpower someone else, when someone else is lower than they are then they feel better about themselves at that moment that they are being mean, I think that afterwards they probably feel bad about what they have done or said but they most likely will not admit that because that would make them vulnerable. So if someone is being physically abused the only option is to leave for their own safety and end the relationship. I wouldn't want anyone who is being physically abused to try any of this and them to get hurt because of it because I don't believe that a person who is that angry can be reasoned with .

There is a huge difference in someone being angry and someone being abusive.

Anyway those are some of my views. I have much more to say but I am running out of time today but this topic about LB's is something that I have been trying to work on in my relationship with my man and things really have been changing for the better lately but not without a lot of hard work and patience. I am a very patient person, sometimes that's good, sometimes it can be bad lol. Anyway when I have more time, if you don't mind, I would like to touch on your spoiled son situation and his lack of responsibility towards helping out and doing chores.

Best wishes to you too!
Jade

Dear Jade,

Your post is an avalanche of information, and it will take me a while to fully understand it all. I will post again when I have a better handle on more of the concepts that you presented. Very helpful post.

Glad things are getting better for you.

This morning my wife started in on me, about how much of the housepayment she was going to help out with. I switched to a discussion of POJA. I said, please have confidence that I am not going to do anything on this issue without your complete agreement. I'm going to do exactly as you want it done, and no more. She calmed down at the time, and went to work

She called me a few hours later, and agreed to the amount that we had previously agreed upon weeks and months ago.

The books I am reading now, by Gerald Patterson, Castalia Publishing, Oregon, suggest that irritable conversation is a pre-cursor to verbal abuse and violence. Therfore, rewarding periods of time without irritable conversation may be a behavioral objective.

From Silva Method, programmming may be for confidence that I can make my point without expressing any frustration that I might feel.

One guy at work can get me going, as his general outlook is fearful. He makes comments to LOOK OUT FOR this, or LOOK OUT for that. My instinct is to argue to a more postive point of view. But lately, I just say, "That's good advice" I have agreed with him that the world is a fearlful place, and his life mission of having others see the fear he sees, is accomplished.

More later as I try to apply your concepts.

Truly thank you,

Quipper,
Married 28 years and still struggling.

Dear Jade,

My wife has been going off on a temper tantrum whenever she finds a light left on in a bathroom, or other remote location, that has been overlooked.

This is the YOU ARE STUPID accusation you were speaking of. So she started in tonight, as the first floor bathroom light was on, when she came home from work, and went to use that bathroom.

The wonderful thing about talking to you, Jade, is that I now have an attitude of hope, that I can take rsponsibility for the negativity that is impacting me, and I can find ways that are incremental, and not confrontational.

So I said to my wife, "Honey you are ruining the atmophere in the house. You can point out that someone has left the bathroom light on, without being irritable." You could say something like, "Someone left the light on in the bathroom. I hope everyone likes to work overtime, because we are wasting money."

So my wife switched to a silly attitude, rather than an appropriate pleasant attitude. But I think she is starting to get teh point.

I think it may be important for my family members to have a clear idea of how splitting up will look. If they want to do things that reduce my energy, rather than synergize me, then a primary purpose of the family is kaput.

I'm not trying to be evil, but let's get positive, or let's get lost.

I have been procrastinating on some work that should be done for the family. This is a bad cycle for me, because I am a master procrastinator. So they take pot shots at Dad, and I procrastinate, because what is more perfect to express my resentement, than what I love to do, which is wait till the last minute, or longer. But that is a sideways expression of my feelings, but I am feeling more confident in my sequential expressions to combat negativity.

Thanks again,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still stuggling.

Dear Jade,

The concept of control leads into the idea of a power struggle, and I would suggest the guilty party may be feeling a lack of respect, and control is one way to regain or measure it.

Therfore, I am trying POJA when irritability occurs. Perhaps the woman who the husband thinksw should have dinner at 6 PM, could have an agreement, that at least a salad or an apetizer, pigs in a blanket, egg rolls, something that can be popped in the microwave or oven with short fanfare. Then the main course coming after the news of the NewYork Blackout can be seen on TV for a few miniutes.

Still workin on this issue.

I am working to get the contingent positives in place for my son, before I start with the negatives. I am trying to identify instances of catching my son doing good, for a timely pat on the back.

Will post back

Quipper,
Married 28 years and still struggling.

Thank you for the support and the ideas. Unfortunately, my husband says that he has the RIGHT to be violent if he does not want to discuss something or if he does not approve of how I feel about a situation. He is a top executive at a big company and many times the people there are rude or insulting to me (and to other "outsiders") at various functions that we must attend. I tried not going to one of the dinners a few months ago and he simply took one of the ladies that works for him. He picked her up, took her to the dinner, out for drinks after and did not come home until after 1:00 a.m., when the dinner was over at 9:00. He says that because I don't work there, no one has to be polite to me and if I don't like it, there are plenty of women who would be happy to be with him. We have been married for 34 years and I don't want to throw everything away, but I am just so miserable.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> *PRAYING*

LOOK .... at what you wrote ! * !

"I don't want to throw everything away, but I am just so miserable."

Don't you realize you are holding on to that misery .... and that's what you don't want to throw away?

You have a choice.

Be miserable, or force a change.

You choose.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Dear Praying,

Your husband may have a right to act however he chooses to act BUT you have a right to say that you will not put up with it! Just because he thinks that he has a right to act violent doesn't mean that it's an appropriate behavior and doesn't mean that you have to hear his nasty mouth. If he gets violent simply say I will not listen to this and walk away.

I have been in my relationship for 16 years now and have only begun this year to set boundaries and say I do not have to hear his negative crap nor do I deserve to be treated with disrespect. I allowed him to treat me as if he were the MASTER and I was the SLAVE. When he would demand something of me I would just do it even if it was something that I didn't want to do. Well that is not how I want to live so things are changing because I am changing and speaking up when I don't like something. His opinion is his opinion and I do not have to agree with him. I have my own mind, my own thoughts, my own set of values and beliefs, my own likes and dislikes and I have a RIGHT to be and do what I want to (as long as it doesn't hurt someone else or step on their boundaries of course). I was miserable and I would blame him for my misery but you know what? I have a choice here, I can make changes within myself, I can set boundaries to say I will not be treated with disrespect. I allowed him to treat me badly so he thought that it was ok to continue to act out badly. It was not ok with me though but I was afraid to speak up for fear that I would make him angry. Oh well if he gets angry, thats his problem. He chooses how he will react to a situation and if he chooses to be angry then thats his behavior to own not mine but I don't have to listen to it anymore.

I have learned so much about myself and about his behavior. And what I've come up with is that I allowed him to treat me badly but I can set boundaries to NOT allow it anymore. There are many ways to avoid or stop an arguement or to stop rude behavior but defending and explaining your point of view is not the answer right now because that will only allow him to prove to you that he is right and you are wrong.....you just don't get anywhere like that....you can't win with an abusive person because they always have to be right but you can say I see your point and walk away. That doesn't say that you agree with him and it is not confrontational, it simply says I hear you but don't care to discuss it any further.

You said that you are miserable with him but you don't want to lose everything. What is it that you will lose? Material posessions? You've been married to him for 34 yrs do you know how much you are entitled to? 1/2 of everything and monthly support. Think of what you could gain by not being abused anymore.

You have 3 choices. You can stay and not change a thing and keep on being miserable or you can stay and find ways to change yourself and set boundaries to not allow his bad behavior or you can leave and start a life without him. You have a RIGHT to live peacefully and without criticism and disrespect.

Oh and his disrespectful co-workers do not have a right to treat you disrespectfully either. If you don't like something then call it out. Say that was a bit rude and walk away. That shows that you will not allow others to walk all over you. Assertiveness is something that I am learning because I am tired of saying yes when I really want to say no, I'm tired of agreeing with things I really don't agree with.

I feel for you because I know what you are going through. You don't have to live that way though.

Some books that I have read are "Controlling People" and "Verbal Abuse Survivors Speak Out" by Patricia Evans. She has other books that I have not yet read. I have found her books to be a great help to me.

Dear Quipper,

I've read your replies and I think in a lot of ways we sound a bit alike in personality traits and such. I tend to be quiet and reserved and let people walk all over me. I procrastinate terribly also. Generally I am a happy person, very easy going, sometimes too nice.

What I've learned lately is that I am not responsible for other peoples happiness. I can contribute to their happiness but I am not responsible to make all people happy all the time. We are all responsible only for our own happiness. We are responsible for setting our own boundaries to let others know what is and what is not acceptable to us. I tend to try to do all I can to make others happy and thats not necessarily a bad thing as long as I don't comprome myself by doing things that I really don't want to do or feel like doing at that moment.

I am trying to learn to be more assertive. I read a lot and do a lot of research on the web. Assertiveness does not mean being aggressive at all as the links below will show.
assertive
article about assertiveness
Nathaniel Branden, Ph.D. on assertiveness

There are many ways to diffuse an arguement without being confrontational. Attacking someone when they attack you isn't the answer...that only adds fuel to the fire and makes it escalate into something even bigger.

I think that we could be of great support to one another with learning to deal with our situations in a more positive manner and to not allow our partners to use negativity to get their way. I agree that it is all about power and control or the lack of within the angry person. They use power and control to gain respect but in actuality they lose respect by trying to overpower another, though I wonder if they gain self respect in some way by acting out....or maybe they are gaining self empowerment by running over others or maybe they think that they will gain the other person's respect somehow. Anyway they feel they are gaining something when they act out otherwise they wouldn't act out imo.

Jade

Dear Praying,

One thing that comes to mind, is the concpet of throwing things and having a violent fit, and asserting his right to express himself violently. The law of Assault is fairly well settled in most jurisdictions, that if someone is behaving in a manner intended to make another afraid, and the other person becomes afraid, of an offensive touching, then there is an assault. Battery does not have to occur for an assault to occur. Battery is injury from an offensive touching.

One of your options is to contact an attroney to help you assert your rights. One of the duties of attorneys, and counselors, is to keep client confideces, within certain exceptions. One of the exceptions is if informion is provided that a crime is going to take place in the future, then the there is a duty to report the likelihood of a future crime. It is not clear to me, as to how an attorney, or counselor, might interpret the duty to report, in your case, and more would depend upon how you presented the information to the professionsal. Your husband's assaultive behavior seems to be ongoing, but has not caused you much physical injury to date.

In the books the INTMATE ENEMY, about marriage difficulties and solutions, they recommend having an overnight bag ready, and having a pre-arranged place to go, so that the other spouse is comfortable about where you are going. If things get too tense in my house I will leave. I go to a motorhome 3 miles away. My wife can go to her mother's house or to her brother's house.

I heard a term on a self-improvement tape, Walk Away Power. It seems that you do not have your walk away power established or entrenched in your marriage. The length of tiem you stay away can be varied with circumstances, be a few hours may bve enough fo a fesh perspective. It does not seem that your husband has any idea that that he is committing a criminal act when he throws a book on the floor in a manner that intimidates you.

Hopefully you have not been injured.

Let us know what phrases and tactics are working, or not working, for you.

Deeper sympathy,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

Dear Jade,

I have tried to post to the less traveled Categories, when I might be able to raise some isssues or questions for the poster.

As for Me, I drew up some tracking charts for behavior change yesterday. I thought if my wife and I got started with the tracking charts, that I could bring my son on board, with positives, at first.

So my wife had been thinking about getting a better house, and asked me to look at some she had found. I went to look at the houses she had found, but did NOT go along with the idea, so my wife threw a temper tantrum. I left, and she said she was leaving, and that the current house we have is a disgrace. So when I came back at 5 AM, she was gone. Ordinariy when I go out, she will be there when I come back in the early morning. She knows I am not going to visit another woman, and can call me on my pager.

So I got 5 bills paid this morning, and found my spare checks after several hours of searching. Cancelled on unauthorized charge for $139.00. I do not know how destructive my wife will get, so I don't know how much stuff to keep in storage, and how much it is safe to have around the house. Last time I left in the face of her temper tantrum, about a month ago, she tore up my $400 speakers, and a box with family improvement notes and books.

My phrase this time was that I did not want to say things back to her that I did not mean, so I was leaving. As her temper tantrum started, I told her she was just an unhappy person, but she is not unhappy all the time, so that was not accurate, and a signal that I should use my walk away power.

I will try to do some things that I have been procrastinating. One self-improvement tape says to divide the procrastinated task into small units, and then start with just one slice, and stop, reward yourself. Then try another slice later. Like sliced lunch meat from the butcher.

Thanks for your past compassion,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

Dear Quipper,

Sorry to hear that there are problems going on right now.

IMO your wife is being selfish. When house hunting you don't just jump into purchasing without looking and researching. And you don't just buy a house because one spouse likes or wants it and the other doesn't. Try using the POJA. Has your wife been to this site? It could be very helpful if she was going by the same set of rules as you are. Maybe you could print out the basic concepts and the POJA and the 2 of you sit down together and talk about things.

I am curious what you did not agree with about the houses she had you look at. Did you explain to her what you felt was wrong about these houses?

When she began to throw her tantrum because she didn't get her way....she was wrong for acting like that but I also think that you telling her that she is just an unhappy person was wrong too. All that statement did was to add fuel to her fire. That was a disrespectful judgement on your part. Rather than making it a statement about her you could make it an "I feel" statement about yourself to let her know that you feel thus and so when such and such happens. That way she doesn't take it as an attack on her, because when she feels personally attacked she is gonna attack back.

How does your wife feel when you walk away? Are you leaving for the whole night? When things get heated in my relationship I leave for no longer than an hour normally, just enough time to cool off and get my thoughts straight and to let him cool off too. I think that if he left for hours or all night that I might feel that he was running away or avoiding the problem altogether. Have you talked to her yet today? Has anything been resolved?

Let me know what you think of what I've said.

Jade

Dear Jade,

I agree that I was wrong to say that she is just an unhappy person. A better way to say my feelings might have been, "It seems that there are times when you are irreoncilably happy.

My feelings about the houses were that there was not enough parking, and not enough storage space, and that the deals were good, but not so exceptional. The way my wife proposed dividing up the house does not seem realistic, and we have issues with the similar house that we have now.

My experience is that my wife will go on til 2 or 3 in the morning, once she starts, so coming back before 3 is unproductive, but I may test the waters earlier next time. Actually I left around 9 PM, and returned aroudn 11 PM to get some bills, and encounterd the same attitude.

I have asked my wife explain POJA to others, and she has to some degree. I have mentioned the web-site to her, but she has no interest in doing anything except what she feels like doing.

I am trying to get her throught he behavior change book. Maybe 10 pages read.

I will probably call my wife and thank her for doing some laundry.

Thanks for the quick response.

More to come.

Quipper,
Married 28 years and sill struggling

Hello again Quipper,

As far as her fits....would it do any good if you told her that when she yells and throws a fit that you cannot and will not talk or discuss any matters with her if she is not willing to be quiet and listen while you talk and that you will give her the same respect? I have a link about anger Get your angries out maybe this would be something good for your wife to check out. I have found a lot of good information there.

When you leave and then when you come back does the matter get discussed again and resolved or does it get put on the back burner because you don't want to listen to her tantrum? I used to just not discuss it again in order to not start another fight. But that doesn't work because you will resent that nothing ever really gets dealt with and solved eventually.

If you guys don't agree on a house then let it go and look for the next one. You have to find something that you are both happy with.

Things are going pretty good for me right now. He has been getting dinner started some nights which is a huge help and cleaning up a little around the house instead of griping about what needs done. At the moment things are looking up. I hope it stays that way.

Hope things get better for you,
Jade

Dear Jade,

Thanks for the reference to Get Your Angries Out. I will try to look it over more carefully. Ideally, I could be a coach for my wife to work through her anger. One attitude for anger is antagonism, and if the person comes up to antaognism, Boredom is recommended. I guess I could come up with some targets for may wife, The Economy, The War, The Middle East, The Contractors, My Pay at my job, Lack of OT, etc.

I am trying to avoid love busters, and change what I can reasonably change. I left a message for my wife at her work. I called her when she was getting off, and she apparently figured it was me, and hung up.

I mailed 6 bills and got some work done on one project that I have been delaying. So I am trying to do well. My marriage is not totally under my control, so I will just try to stay positive for my wife, should she choose to allow interaction. I will occasionally try to intiate positive interaction, but I don't have a timetable on this one.

Thanks again,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

On the issue of verbal vs physical abuse. Obviously the physical is seen and the verbal is hidden. One can be done and no one know's it the abuser can deny it. Why tell someone to say in an emotionally abusive relationship and to get out in a physcially abusive?

I have been in an emotionally abusive situation for 18 years. With people telling me to work it out or its really not abuse. Bull****. I have been apologized too more times than I care to remember and told it will never happen again, just to watch it start over and over and over again. But, there is just enough time in between the end and the beginning of a new episode that I start to believe and then "Boom".

The only time I was able to get my H, in couselling was after my A, this past year, after two sessions she gave us a clean bill of health and told us we were her easiest couple ever to counsel. Why, because abusers are manipulators and she was manipulated. Is the abuse all gone? Is the problem fixed? Well I guess so, because here I am back in the marriage and six months past D-Day. Well, guess what I see, I see things sneaking back in that were supposed to be gone forever, after all, the IC said he was cured. So everyone sees the outward changes and nobody sees what's going on in the house. But, don't worry, I've figured out from all the respones here that it's all because I strayed from the marriage vow to be "faithful", not because he has a real problem and needs help that I can not give because I'm just not trained in that field.

Do me a favor, don't encourage people to stay in emotionally abusive relationships, encourage them to get help for themselves. Even physically abused womem will tell you the emotional abusive is far worse.

Dear Tired of Hurting,

Thank you for your post. In fact I feel less aprehensive now that my wife has been gone for 2 days.

One of the things my wife is challenging is my ability to walk away when she starts being unnecessarily critical. The reason my wife left me, she said, was because I was leaving when she wanted to continue being overly critical.

So your post seems to offer support for my current position that if I have to stay to listen to put-downs, then the marriage is not worth it.

Thanks again, and hope your marriage is peaceful.

Quipper
First marriage 28 years, separated 2 days.

Quipper,

I hope that things will shake out enough that your spouse will go get some help. I realize my post was abrupt, but I live in a glass house where we walk on eggshells sometimes on a daily basis. I always thought that if I changed my hair color, or got it cut differentyly, lost more weight, kept the house perfect and the kids perfect, then things had to get better. They never did. On September 20, 2002, my mother passed away and the events that followed that week sent me over the edge (my Mother was buried on my baby's 2nd birthday). Things from that day forward became unbearable, I unfortunately turned to someone else for the comfort and shoulder I needed at time. My H, is doing much better than before, but there are times when I feel like I'm right back where I was and nothing has changed. I would like for him to go back to therapy this time for anger management, but I know he won't. So I pray that he will continue to go forward and not revert back. But when I see things slipping back in, it really scares me. We have four children and I've been at stay at home Mom for 10.5 years, I have no marketable job skills and no money of my own. So I am willing to keep trying.

Good Luck.

Dear Tired of Hurting,

I can identify with feeling trapped. I have a lot of research materials at my house, and it would take some work to either put the materials in storage, or sort things out to fit into current storage facilities.

I suppose I could suggest starting to work on job skills, my daughter earns $53,000.00, and learned it all studying on a laptop, and took computer certification tests. I, myself, could just go rent a room, $250- $350 per month, maybe $450, in my area, but as of yet, I have not done that.

My wife waited till I went to work on a midnight shift, and then came home. I drove past her car, as I was late leaving for work. She could probalby use some help. I have suggested that we get help, and have gone to some therapists, in the past, but she has resisted. In a selfish sense, I perhaps should dump her now while she is young enough to start another marriage.

Inersting phrase, "You are young enough to start another marriage, why be concerned about me?" I just tried to love you for 28 years, and two kids, so it is apparent that I do not have your love, now, so what should we be concerned about?

Love,

Quipper
Married 28 years, separated 3 days

Dear tiredofhurting,

I wanted to clarify that I am not saying that it is ok to stay in a verbally abusive relationship. Quipper had said earlier in this thread that he wanted to work this out with his wife so I respected him for that and gave advice as to what he could TRY to do.

I have been in a verbally abusive relationship for 16 years. I let the abuse happen and never so much as mumbled a word of how I felt to him because if I did it didn't matter anyway and that just gave him more fuel. But this year I have changed things and it has worked for me. I have changed in the way that I don't take responsibility for his actions anymore. He knew before that he could act out and then blame me and I would take the blame upon myself. Now I don't. I haven't changed me into what HE wants me to be I have changed into a stronger person and have set boundaries and I stick with those boundaries, I no longer take the victim role. I no longer accept abuse. AND I STRESS THAT THIS DOES NOT WORK FOR ALL PEOPLE. I do believe that change is possible but only if the other person wants to change because we can't change them, they have to want to change themselves.

So it's not that I think physical abuse is any worse than verbal/emotional abuse. And when I say if someone is being physically abused that they should not try to work it out it's because I don't want them to get hit. But if someone who is in a verbally abusive relationship says that they want to try one last time and they want advice then I will offer what has worked for me. Verbal abuse can do as much harm as physical, actually verbal is worse. I know, I have been there with the verbal abuse.

Quipper is the first person that I have offered advice to as far as what I am doing that has changed my life because HE asked, because he wanted to make an effort to salvage his marriage and there is nothing wrong with wanting to try IMO if that is what you want to do. If your efforts of making the relationship a happier one do not work then you leave. But I am by no means telling anyone to just stay and put up with it, I am offering advice to Quipper that has worked for me.

Check my other responses and posts please before you make an assumpion about me. I never told Quipper to stay, I've never told anyone to stay.

Dear Jade,

Thanks for your ideas, and I appologize for not rising more forcefully to your defense, but you did fine, on your own.

My wife returned home Sunday, but is still punishing me by being in a withdrawn mood. I have been focusing on my son completing a self-improvement course, that was beyond my budget, but I felt was key for him, 26, and unable to support himself. Tonight is the second to last night, with graduation being a week from next Monday, and mostly perfunctory, but tonight is the last real working night, and I saw the books out for studying when I left home at 2 PM. I often call at 6 PM, to make sure he did not oversleep, as it starts at 6:30 PM.

I called to remind my wife not to start up some argument with our son, that could wait until after class. She has been cooperative in the past, and seemed cooperative with guiding our son today.

I scheduled to sit down with my wife to dicuss issues, going out to dinner on Thursday evening.

One reason I got married was for inspiration and increased productivity. Lately my moody wife has been slowing down my momentum, so the marriage is not making sense. Hopefully this is just a small bump in the road.

Thanks again,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling after a 2 day separation.

<small>[ August 25, 2003, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Sorry Jade - didn't even read your post, just Quippers' - I was upset over another post I had read in EN - was not trying to pin anything on this post. I truly think that a verbal abusive relationship can be worked out, if the abuser wants to change. I also live a with a verbal abuser and he is changing everyday for the better.

I don't advise to leave or to stay, just to get help. I don't want someone breaking down like I did and doing something they regret.

On a different note - My SIL and I are thinking about starting a maid service. She was laid off of work today and We haven't had a raise in three years. So just maybe, it might work out, because we are great at cleaning! Wish us Luck.

Good Luck -Quipper.

tiredofhurting,

Sorry I mistook your reply.

I feel very strongly about abuse obviously because I live it. I always think if I knew then what I know now I would've gotten out of the relationship immediately. I know it's still possible to leave and that is an option but for me it's not an option until every avenue of help has been exausted. But things seem to be changing, for now anyway. I just hope that it lasts.

The hard part about verbal/emotional abuse is that things go well for a period then it starts to get ugly again....that's just part of the cycle. I think the cycle can be broken though, only time will tell if thats true or if I am fooling myself.

I always tell anyone who is in a new relationship and seeing abuse starting to happen to get out while they still can, before it gets too deep. The longer you are with someone the harder it is to leave them and the longer you are with an abuser the more control they gain over you and the more they will use their tactics to get their way. And then the abused person has NO self worth and doesn't even trust their own judgement anymore, you become completely empty. I've been to that low point and I will never ever go back to those feelings of worry and self doubting and self hate and walking on eggshells for no reason but fear. It took me a long time to figure out that he is the one with a problem and that I am not at fault and that there is nothing wrong with me and that I am not all the ignorant things he used to say I was and most importantly I don't cause him to be angry and get irate...the anger and the way they handle that anger is all on them....I don't OWN his anger, that's his to own.

I wish that they taught about verbal and physical abuse in high schools everywhere, then maybe people would know whats happening from the get go and not allow themselves to be treated with such disrespect from someone that is supposed to love them.

Good luck with your business venture!!! Be positive about it, you can do anything that you set your mind to <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Dear Tired of Hurting,

You are welcome to continue on this thread. I have not finished resolving a number of issues, being discussed here.

The tempo on Emotinal Needs is rather direct, with many posters giving colorful and opposing ideas, without necessarily trying to be real helpful. I have gotten put downs for trying to be helpful in the Emotional Needs section, and since there are so many people posting in that section, I usually don't post there. I will occasinally follow someone into Emotional Needs who has posted on a less traveled category.

I spent 50 Minutes last night with my telephone editor, and basically went over this thread and came up with some constructive responses to anger, by changing the subject to:
A. POJA, Following and Exceptions
B. History of feelings on issue
C. Climate, Mood Atmosphere of the House.
D. Need for a break
E. Fears and concerns
G. Manner of break to take.
H. Need to Take a Break to avoid committing love busters.

I have my wife agreeing to lunch today, and I plan to go over her wish list, so I can be sure that I am not missing any easy ones, and also to let her think out her/our priorities. I also want to hear more about my wife's ideas on how I should take a break, as she apparently has some new ideas on that.

I think there is a real need for people willing to clean, because so many people don't like to do it. I personally mop, sweep and vacuum at work, and am am paid more than many who refuse to do it, but the bosses are unable to get others to do cleaning in key areas. They just canned the only guy that was halfway willing to actually get dirty and do difficult cleaning. Everybody else was finding ways to criticize the guy, but never saw the real value of the guy as a willing cleaner.

Best wishes,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling.

Dear Jade,

I started a Journal in Word, and there seems to be some progress.

Yesterday, W agreed to give me back the basement, for the things I have in storage for $300.00 per month. She agreed to POJA on not throwing my stuff away without my enthusiastic support.

I presented a chart to my son, who felt offended as the book says Adolescents on it. I made up a chart for several months of days ahead, so we can track things that happen gradually, and only every several days. I am calling them Celebration Charts. I said I wanted more money from my son toward his expenses, and suggested that we track his applying for jobs as something to track and celebrate. I am tracking the 30 minute walks I take, every few days. Yesterday my son applied for a job, so I marked it down on a chart for Job Applications.

I do not yet have my wife tracking something of hers on a chart.

Best wishes,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

Hi Quipper,

Haven't been postly lately. Having a bit of a rough time.

Hope things are going ok with you. Your list/chart sounds like a good idea. How is that going?

I will probably post over the weekend when I have more time.

Take care!
Jade

Dear Jade,

Things are going so smoothly with my wife that it is scary. The lull before the storm. My challenge is to catch up all the things I have been procrastinating before real problems hit the fan, and the marriage deteriorates. I made a little progress today. More to go.

My son tried to throw a temper tantrum several times, and I just backed off and gave him space. Patterson says just go find something else to do, after you make your point. Be careful not to take any position from which you will have to back down, he says.

My position is rather unassailable. I want to celebrate good things that my son does. He has not yet come up with much of a way to argue about it, other than throwing the piece of paper with the chart back on the table.

My son offered me some items to put on the Applying for Jobs chart. He went out of town over the weekend, and arranged to pay another waiter $50.00 to cover his weekend shift, so he would not lose his job (2 days a week). That is kind of like applying for a job.

My wife is constantly cooking for our son, and buying him his favorite food, and then complaining to ME that our son leaves his personal items in the living room instead of carrying them up to his room. Patterson preaches being contingent. How about, "While I am cooking this pasta for you, my dear son, how about you pick up your things out of the living room and carry them up to your room." [If Son does not start moving, my wife agreed that she could just turn off that burner, slide the pot to a burner that was off, and find something else to do, until my son's items in the living room were removed.] A phraseology that might work for her, "I'm feeling foolish to finish cooking the pasta, until you have taken your stuff out of the living room, so let me know when you are finished with the living room, so I can feel good about finishing cooking your pasta."

My wife is starting a chart for herself on checking family insurance matters and doctors appointments. Once we have positives hooked to the charts, We can start on some furhter contingencies. Currently, nothing is contingent. Everyting is given unconditionally.

My wife suggested that she, my son and I play cards sometimes. Usually I try to avoid dealing with my wife in front of my son, becasue my wife will bring up issues that seem intended to increase her hand, or standing, in unresolved disputes between her and I. She agreed to a Code Word, Red, that will serve for me to let her know that she is stepping on my toes, when we are in a family setting.

So I hope you are finding ways to create space so that you can disengage when things start heading SOUTH. I have not divined what problems you might be currently having, so I will just wish for peace around you.

Thanks for listening,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

<small>[ August 30, 2003, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Dear Jade,

Procrastination:

The book Gerald Patterson, 1987, says:

Procrastination is the result of parents yelling at us as kids. The cycle is that when parents ask politely, we ignore them, for as long as possible. When they finally start yelling, we are getting intense attention in combination with the Pain of fear of Parents imposing punishment, Then we do what we were told to do.

We are left with a mechanism, and a habit, to get intense attention, quite close to getting love, by delaying complying with polite requests.

I told my wife today, that she needs to have immediate compliance from our son for anything she asks. He needs to have the habit of immediate compliance with a reasonable request.
I told my wife to be careful what she asked our son for, and find a way to obtain immediate compliance.

Also randomly criticizing the kid for a bathroom light left on, or other irritating transgressions, was counter-productive, and created a tendency to procrastination.

She first said, well if I ask him to pick up the living room, it is OK to delay if he is tired. I said if he has the habit of delaying complying with requests in the real world, he will never become self-supporting.

More to go,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

Hi Quipper,

I agree with what you've said about procrastinating. When someone yells or nags you to do something you are more likely NOT to do it than if they would have asked nicely and then gave a compliment or some type of praise afterwards. No one likes being TOLD what to do.

Things sound like they are improving somewhat for you and I'm glad for you.

I have been going through some rough times lately. He is being disrespectful and mean and rude lately. Makes me wonder if it's worth my efforts to make it work since he doesn't seem to be trying. I am at the point now of beginning to think that it is time to leave and move on without him. I deserve to be treated with respect, kindness and love and I'm not getting that from him. I have pretty much lost hope and I have lost any respect that I had for him. I am just tired. I am going to try to talk to him tonight and let him know how I am feeling about the way he has been treating me and how it is pushing me away. I am at the end of my rope here and really don't know what to do next. I have tried and tried and I am sick of trying and not getting results. He has to make up his mind as to whether he wants a good relationship and if he can't commit to being a better person then I need to leave and start a new life without him.

Jade

Dear Jade,

Sometimes it is better to cut your losses earier, before you experience more losses. I wonder if I am making the best investment of my efforts by staying in my current marriage.

Patterson suggests habit changing and giving people space when they are throwing a temper tantrum. My wife still is afraid of my son's temper, and umy wife usually avoids being assertive with him. I am trying to get her to develop clear avenues for her to give my son space, if he may choose to display his temper.

Your husband seems to express his ideas too quickly. Ideas often occur to us a complaints, or some negative feeling. It is only by thinking the idea over, and changing the concept to positive terminology, that we can be considerate of out loved ones.

One power of women I have pointed out in some posts, is the soothing quality of mammary contact. Hugging your husband's arm to your chest may be a reward system to use for 15 minutes without an unprocessed idea.

In the Book the INTMATE ENEMY, it suggests keeping an overnight bag under your bed. Also having an agrement for how it will smoothly work when you feel that you need a break for the night.

Hope your talk is productive with H.

Best wishes

Quipper
Married 28 years and stil struggling

Dear Jade,

Hope your talk went OK.

I visited the Web site you referenced a month ago, http://people.howstuffworks.com/vsd.htm,(won't clik fromhere for some reason) and this idea come up for me.

I am afraid to lose the love of my wife, and so when she speaks in anger, my fear kicks in. Fear is a natural response to anger from someone else.

One of your earier observations was to speak more calmly, and not get caugt up in the turmoil of the other spouse.

The subject of my fear, losing my spouse's love:

Honey if it is not worth your trouble to put your feelings of irritation into a plesant framework, then maybe we have a shortage of love. Is there a shortage of love that we need to address? How should we address the shortage of love?

This brings the issue up squarely. The impolite spouse is counting on the target spouse to be in fear of losing the love of the impolite spouse, and not bring up the issue of insufficient love.

Maybe there is some reason that there is a shortage of love. Is this a short term reason? A long term reason? Is there something we should change? Do we have a clear understanding of each otehr's current wish lists?

Your failure to take time to think of a polite approach indicates that we may not have a clear understanding of each other's wish lists.

I suggest that you go outside and take a walk around the block and think of some more polite and loving way to approach me about that issue.

Another Thread I found referenced incompletely, a while back, started by DriveTime, 25630, WELL IT HAPPENED AGAIN, NEED ADVICE, under Emotional Needs, started 5-20-2003

We have not discussed Boredom, mentioned in the Web as Baroque Boredom Response, BBR. They suggest evoking Boredom, by telling some tirvial story, as if it relates the the issue addressed by the attacker. Robert Redgrave was being atacked in the movie SPY GAME, in a CIA debriefing room. His character startd telling a story about his uncle who worked the fields of his farm with a plough horse. The horse fell, and came up lame, at 20 years old, after many years of service, and his uncle took the horse to the vet. The vet said he could not heal the horse, and offered to put the horse to sleep. And so on.

On the website, they suggest some childhood memory to be repeated, with details, to give the sense of boredom.

I have not been practicing boredom. I never tried to create boredom in that way. I knew there were lines in the SPY GAME that I could learn from. I think Boredom is stupid, but it is better than Anger, so I should work on it. Have you tried Boredem?

Boredom is supposed to be the path to Cheerfulness.

I still say the main key to answering impoliteness is to change the subject. I am finding more and more subjects to switch to.

Still working.

Quipper
Married 28 years and stil struggling

<small>[ September 03, 2003, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Dear Quipper,

I myself have not tried the boredom thing. I too feel uncomfortable with that one because I feel that boredom is annoying therefore it could make the other party more angry. Some of the other things in that article were good but I do not agree with the boredom thing. I think the key is listening and not jumping to conclusions. If the other person gets loud and ignorant then it is best to stop them and say in a calm non-threatening voice "I am listening to you, there is no need to get irate." or "I am listening to you but when you get angry and loud I shut down and I don't hear a thing you say.".

Some people think that if they get loud and mean that their point will get across but it just doesn't work like that. It does the opposite, it makes the person who should be listening to be thinking "what a jerk" and when you are thinking you won't hear what they are saying.

Changing the subject wouldn't work for me. He would take that as me turning it around and making it something about me and I believe that would make him more angry.

Yesterday I sent him an email with this story.

Nail in the Fence

There once was a little boy who had a bad temper. His father gave him a bag of nails and told him that every time he lost his temper, he must hammer a nail into the back of the fence.

The first day the boy had driven 27 nails into the fence. Over the next few weeks, as he learned to control his anger, the number of nails hammered daily gradually dwindled down.

He discovered it was easier to hold his temper than to drive those nails into the fence. Finally the day came when the boy didn't lose his temper at all.

He told his father about it and the father suggested that the boy now pull out one nail for each day that he was able to hold his temper.

Many days passed and the young boy was finally able to tell his father that all the nails were gone.

The father took his son by the hand and led him to the fence. He said, "You have done well, my son, but look at the holes in the fence. The fence will never be the same. When you say things in anger, they leave a scar just like this one. You can put a knife in a man and draw it out. It won't matter how many times you say I'm sorry, the wound is still there. A verbal wound is as bad as a physical one."

The boy looked up at his dad with tears in his eyes and said "I understand now, thank you dad". His father gave him a hug and said "I know son, I love you" Both of them learned from this lesson and were forever changed by placing nails in the fence.

Remember...
"ANGER" is just one letter short of "DANGER"

It is so true and I am hoping that it will strike a cord with him.

Jade

Dear Jade,

Nice story about the nails not coming out. The Love Buster still leaves the Love Busted.

I am confident that Boredom will serve in some instances, for me.

Perhaps keeping the same subject, but just asking for a more loving approach, is a very direct approach on the issue that concerns us.

Need to get further along in my Patterson book.

My 25 year old son told me last night that he felt he would be finished with Dale Carnegie when he finished the Graduation Class Monday. There is one class he missed, that he has a year to make up. I was irritated that he did not want to think about making up the missed class, but simply agreed that the main target for now was the 3 minute speech for Monday evening.

My son also told me that he was having touble getting along with his boss and co-workers at his two day per week waiter job. He said he was thinking of quitting and getting a job with more shifts. He said his boss was giving him criticism, instead of instruction. I told him that I kept a notebook at work to try to keep track of what my bosses want, and stayed ready to change, as the bosses change the emphasis on what they want. Perhaps I could serve as his secretary, and write down recnt lessons fro him form work, into the home computer, so he could reviesw the lessons over time. Apparently he forgets what he was told for certain infrequent situations, and has no way to review the instructions he received 12 weeks ago, or longer. I have been of assistance to my son serving as a secretary, in the past.

My son has a second, part time job, for a fixed hourly rate, which is fairly low, but probably commensurate with his market value. The hours are flexible, so I suggested that the choice was as to how much time he spent looking for a better job, in realtion to how much time he spent working at the second, part-time job.

Still, applying for jobs is my key tracking factor, rather than money coming in. I am not totally satisfied that that is the best tracking factor, but that is the best I can think of for now. Maybe getting off early to work and school? He has a habit of being late.
something like a habit of procrastinating.

My son needs to leave for school at 6:15 AM, Tuesday and Thursday, and he was gone, when I checked at 6:45 AM. I try to be his back-up alarm clock.

Best wishes,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

Dear Jade,

I am negotitating the way that my wife allows me space when I am feeling that I need some space, when emotions have risen above the point where I can respond thoughtfully.

Last Sunday, I told her that I needed some space and she was not totally cooperative, and I was not totally smooth.

I am intersted in my wife having strategies for giving my 25 year old son space, as he shuts her down with temper tantrums, or appraches to temper tantrums.

I am asking my wife to focus on a few items for improvement, for a week or two. We have a list of 10 or 20 items, for him to impprove, but we need to coordinate. I feel my wife shifts from item to item too quickly. I feel my wife undercuts my efforts to get impprovment in an area, by strting a fight about someting, or by defending my son from losing privileges for my enforcement.

Today my wife agreed that our son has many privileges beyond the scope of the bare necessities, but points out that he expects that level of privilege, and does not consider taht a reward. W suggested more rewards. I suggest that the rewards he is getting, be more contingent, so he will consider them rewards.

My wife is passive-aggressive. She lets things buld up. spoutes off, and then when faced with a temper tantrum from our son, backs down.

The disadvantages of that cycle is that it teaches temper tantrums, and there is no consistency to enforcement. It also teaches procrastination because the son learns to wait until the parent boils over before bothering to do anything. This teaching carries over to the real world. My son is a last minute person. He is frequently late getting up, late to College Classes, late turning in college homework, and last minute to work, and when he has problems at work, he is often late to work.

My son has few household room-mate skills, such as rinsing his dishes. He will put his dishes in the sink if it is a good day. He does not clean his bathroom. He does little laundry, and often gets piles of clothers confused.

I intend to ask my wife for increased producctivity in coordinating efforts for building responsiblity with my son.

Our emotional exchange Sunday started with my observbing my wife in my son's room, picking out dirty laundry. First off, everything on the floor was clean enought ot be re-worn. Second, my son feels antagonistic when things are moved around in his room. And thirdly, picking up my son's room is not the way to build responhsibility.

If W wants to fight about our son's room, great. Put it on the top of the list of 20 items, and give him notice that this is a focus for the next two weeks. Then put coningencies in place.

My son has finished the Dale Carnegie Course, which my wife used forebearance on Mondays from starting up with him. So my wife and I should celbrate that success. But, it is time to move on bigger goals.

Of course, as you point out, I could just rent an apartment and let them figure it out.

Best wishes,

Quipper
Marreid 28 years and still struggling

<small>[ September 09, 2003, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Hi Quipper.

It's been a while since I've posted. Things have been good then bad then good then bad again. I feel overwhelmed and tired.

Last night he was 2 hours late coming home from work and didn't even bother to call me. I don't care if he does things after work but I do care that he has no respect to call me and let me know this. It is a constant complaint of mine and I am tired of it. He copped an attitude with me last night because when he did finally get home he ate his dinner and when he went to throw away his scraps he was angry because the garbage was full in the kitchen. Mind you it was full because I had cleaned up the house and emptied the other trash and the kitty litter and put it all into the large container and hadn't had a chance to tie it up and take it out. Anyway he began to have a tantrum, I explained to him why the trash was full and he still slammed the frig. door. I then said to him "DON"T cop an attitude with ME, YOU are the one who was 2 hrs late in getting home." and then I left for about a half an hour. When I came back everything had calmed down and we actually had a conversation, it was him talking about something I didn't care about but I listened anyway and acted like I was interested in his topic.

I don't understand the big deal behind his anger about the trash being full. If you don't like it then empty it! That's what I would do. But I honestly don't think it was about the trash anyway. What I think is that he knew that I would be mad that he didn't call so what he does is try to be mad at me for something to take the heat off himself so that he doesn't have to take responsibility for himself being late.

I am so tired of doing it all. I work full time, I cook, I clean, I do the laundry, I take out the trash, I do the shopping, I do the bills and most of the time I mow the grass. Geez! I need a partner who can help out, even if it's just a little bit. I feel totally overwhelmed with having a full time job and having to do everything else too. It especially makes me angry that he has time to goof off after work and here I am slaving. Also he comes home from work and lays on the couch! It's not fair, when the hell do I get a break!?

Sorry about the ranting there. What I need to do is have a talk with him about showing respect and consideration towards me and also I need some help around the house. Those are the most important things to me and they have to be dealt with immediately. Of course there are other things too that need dealt with but I think that is plenty to deal with at the moment.

It sounds like you have some good plans taking place. I hope that all works out. I agree with you about what you've said about your son and him needing to learn responsibility rather than him depending on mom to pick up his room and do his laundry for him. I honestly think that at 25 he is old enough to be doing his own laundry. He'll learn to do his laundry when he runs out of clean clothes. He will not learn anything if mom does it all for him. This was how it was with my H. His mother did everything for him....now I am expected to take care of everything like she did. I fear that your son will end up expecting his wife (when that happens) to do everything for him and she isn't gonna like that. He has to be responsible for his own things and have chores and there has to be consequences if he doesn't do these things. Mom can't continue to do it all for him, he won't learn anything good from that.

Best wishes!
Jade

Dear Jade,

Glad the 1/2 hour break worked out positive.

I had a 3/4 hour session with my wife last night, planning for the 25 year old son. I asked her to plan for his temper tantrums.

There are basically 4 responses to a Temper Tantrum.

1. Give space. (Walk away)
2. Emotion back, which changes the subject.
3. Give in.
4. Change the subject, calmly

I encouraged my wife to recognize the disadvantages of getting emotional back.
1. That gives a false, misdirected reward.
2. It allows TT to avoid the original issue you were trying to deal with.
3. Emoting back creates a pattern of procrastination, where nothing gets discussed or resolved until emotions are high.
4. Emoting back can contribute to a downward spiral leading to reduced family teamwork.

My wife is getting the idea that she is contributing to my son's happiness by purchasing food he likes, and preparing it as he likes it prepared. My wife has asked our son to pick up his items in the living room, to be taken to his bedroom or the upstairs computer work room. She wants him to rinse his dishes and put them in the dish washer; and before leaving the kitchenette to fold up the newspaper, and place it in the newpaper box.

So far my wife has been asking, but not receiving. Planning for the Temper Tantrums is important for her to feel comfortable and calm, in enforcing any contingencies.

One rule could be: You eat out if your stuff is not picked up today and yesterday. Do not open the refrigerator. You open the refrigerator without permission, and I reserve the ethical option to take the food out. I am leaving the implimentation for her, but being ready to listen to whichever side needs to aspirate.

I used to empty the cat litter, when we had a cat, who graced us with her presences for a number of years.

Starting small may be wise, but is not the only way to start.

Best wishes,

Quipper
Married 28 Years and still strugging

<small>[ September 16, 2003, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Dear Quipper,

I agree with your explanation of responding emotionally, it just doesn't get you anywhere good. I am glad that your wife is seeing that.

The incident I explained to you the other day when I told him not to cop an attitude with me and then left for a 1/2 hour, it did work. Wednesday he came home straight after work and bought dinner rather than me having to cook and we watched movies together. Yesterday he was late but he called and left a nice message saying what he was doing and when he'd be home. I just hope that it sticks but if it doesn't I now know how to respond to it to get a positive reaction from him.

I found a web site yesterday that is very interesting. I will list the links for you and you can see if it is something that may be of benefit to you.

timeout
anger
There are some other things on that site but probably really don't apply to your situation.

Best wishes,
Jade

Dear Jade,

I read your references, and they seem quite helpful. Part of being a victim of anger, is to have the opportunity to coach the angry person. The web references give some good ideas for coaching an angry person. Even your spouse.

My wife has been getting angry, and then cutting off communication. I am planning to have a gripe session with my wife, so we can both discuss our wish lists, with the agenda objective of just getting hte issues discussed, but probably not resolved, at least not at the discussion session.

Best wishes,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

Dear Jade,

Hope it is a good sign that you are not in need of posting as a means of ventillating for catharsis. Part of any good therapy includes Catharsis.

My changes are that I am seeing my wife's angry out bursts not just as abusive and inconsiderate, but part of a larger problem of frustration resulting from her procrastination and poor planning.

Therefore, in instances of frustration resulting from poor planning, my option for disengaging, and sheilding myself, seems appropriate. "My dear, you certainly have SOME propensity for creating Choas."

There will certainly be some true emergencies for which reasonable planning would have been insufficient, and hopefully I will not be blind to those circumstances, and be there to help.

It does not sound like your husband's expressions of frustration fit into a larger pattern. Only that he feels he can let down his censor with you, and express his feeling without first thinking of your feelings <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> . I have not used any icons or Instant Gremilins before, so I suppose it iis time to try them out.

Best wishes,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

<small>[ September 24, 2003, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Hello Quipper,

Things have been sort of up and down. We had a talk last night which seemed to open up his mind a little. I just have to be very aware of when my boundaries are being overstepped by him and let him know when it occurs rather than just letting things happen so easily. If I don't speak up then he will think it's ok and won't know that I was hurt by something he said or did or whatever. So things are improving slowly, very slowly.

quoting you...."My dear, you certainly have SOME propensity for creating Choas."
I have a suggestion because I think that if you say it that way that she will take that as a big blow from you. YOU statements are very very destructive. It is blaming and although she may be wrong in what she is doing I don't think that that statement will get you anything from her except more anger and she will feel that she is being attacked and go on the defensive. In that statement you are saying "you bring this upon yourself" and that is true but I just don't think it's the right way to go about it. Maybe you could rather say "Honey I would like to help, can I make a suggestion?" and then she will most likely say yes and then you could talk about procrastinating and how that makes things pile up and cause tension and that maybe she could make a list of a few things that she feels she needs to do each day and then it wouldn't feel like she has such a load on her as things wouldn't get all piled up if she did a few things each day. Personally I know that I would get angry with you if you said ...."My dear, you certainly have SOME propensity for creating Choas." and I would not take that constructively because it would feel like an attack of sorts to me and it sounds kind of condesending. But that's just my opinion .

Good luck & best wishes!
Jade

Dear Jade,

Thanks for your idea of re-wording. I am still in the fomrative stages on understanding the breadth of the problem, and how I can encourage improvement. Also I am interested in deriving the maximum inspiration from the marriage, and minimizing or limiting the sucking down effect. Your comments also indicate a different approach to defining the problem, and it will take me a few days to process your ideas more fully.

My wife apologised for a hurried mistake that cost me several hours out of my way, and she appologised. I said that I was accustomed to the chaos. My wife seemed taken aback. I requested that it would be nice if she could put a little more effort into pre-planning, and to arrange her schedule to be more available for when I needed her. My wife has decided to start going to church and exercising starting at 5:30 AM. Previusly she sleep in until 7:30 AM. My wife answered my request with kind understanding words, so apparently I avoided her anger for that moment.

Thanks,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

Quipper,

It seems our postings have annoyed someone. If you would like to keep in contact then post and let me know and I will give you my email addy. Other than that I am finished with this thread.

<small>[ September 26, 2003, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: jade72 ]</small>

Dear Jade,

Pana's comment that we are creating a novel does not seem to be a serious criticism. It seems to be an off-the-cuff remark. This Resolving Conflicts category gets very little traffic compared to Emotional Needs. Resolving conflicts is an important concept in many marriages. I think Pana has problems similar to ours, but she takes a shorter approach to posting, and thinking of solutions to those problems. In going back over Pana's starts to threads, she starts a new thread every month or so, and leaves previously started threads unatttended, which leaves short threads. I respect Pana's expression of her ideas, but I don't take her criticism of "Novel" as well reasoned, or valid.

It is ironic that Pana is complaining about her husband's hasty reply to a school E-mail, so both Pana and her husband are making off-the-cuff remarks, that my result in unintended hurt.

I did, however, respond to Pana's implication that we had hijacked Parying's thread, and started a new thread, entitled HANDLING ANGER, STEMMING VERBAL ABUSE AND SKIRTING CHAOS.

Hope that works for you.

Best wishes,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>