This is my first time posting here. For a little back ground my spouse and I are seperated due to his violent behavior. I live in one state and he lives in another. We have been seperated for 2 months. He filed for divorce stating that he did not want to be married anymore that he did not love me. I do not want divorce. I want to be happy in the marriage that I have. We had no contact at first, due to courts intervention. I finally contacted him by internet and tried to find out why he was so angry. He could not tell me completely but he did make an appointment with a counselor and has gone twice now.He now says he wants to try to make our marriage work. We both did the EN questionaire and I have started on the LB one. We met this last week in a safe place and talked for a few hours. I thought it went well. We talked about reconcilliation and me moving back. I do not feel safe yet and told him until he knows why the violence erupted and how to be sure it will never happen again I will not move back. He seemed to accept this and has not pushed the issue, only saying he was expecting that it would take at least a month, I countered with several months as the move has put a huge financial and emotional strain on myself and my family. We agreed to discuss it more later. We also agreed to talk as much as possible and see each other again, not specifying a time.
Since that time he has become distant again ie: not calling, sending very short im's. Now I have found out he is talking to a woman in another state on the phone and has been since right after I moved out. When we met and talked I told him that I would not under any circumstances share him with other women. My trust level has been eroded to the point that I have none. He flirted online and stared at other women even with me in the room but he was really bad about chatting with other women and talking about how miserable his marriage was and then telling me everything was fine. When I found out about this other woman I asked him to sever all contact with her. He refuses saying he cannot live that way. I tried to explain to him that when he does this it hurts me immensly but he does not seem to be hearing me. Am I asking something that is not reasonable? If I am I can reassess the situation and maybe we can come to an agreement. Please anyone with ideas please help.

Dear Surviving Today,

I feel that you have put forth your feelings in a genuine fashion, and that you have explained your situation fairly clearly. What is not clear, to me, is which is the best path for your to follow for you. I will point out some paradoxes of your situation, not to say you are wrong in this way or that way, just to point out that you have the opportunity to make compromises, in the mean time, as you work toward perfection, or near-perfection.

You mention violent behavior. What is your vision of the violent behavior? What is the reality of the Violent episodes? What were the things leading up to violence? When this happened before, is there any pattern which you can identify, and be aware of? Do you have any agreements as to when you feel uncomfortablel, that you have some place otg go for some amont of tgiem to let things cool down? Does your husband have a place to go if he is agitated? Is he sometimes had too much to drink, so that he cannot drive away?

You seem to be jealous of another woman, but you are unwilling to provide as in Song of Solomon, to keep your husband thinking of you, and not other women.

The statistics that are quoted in MB is that there is a 2% chance of reconciliation after speapration. This inticates that you, and your husband, are going to have to put forth extraordinary effort to get back together.

Your demand that your husband explain the violence to you, seems inappropriate to me. Violence is an inherent part of the human psyche. What is important is for both of you to reconize the sequences that lead to violence, so that you can both work at stemming the violence. You seem to be behind the curve in understanding domestic violence. Your post shows no thought to the processes that are successful in stemming violence.

You seem to be standing on your rights, and insiting that he guarantee you no violence. You do not provide a devinitive defintion of what you mean by violence. Violence is created when one partner is agitated, and the other partner decides to stand on their rights, rather than find a peaceful way out of the situtation. What are some phrases for you to have handy when things seem to be headed South? To me, you sound like you are intent upon standing upon your rights, whether or not you are antogonizing your husband.

Some women who are separated try to get things back together as much as possible, while maintaining a separte residence. You give not indication of trying to make things work the best they can.

The atmosphere of trust is important. To me, you need further work to understand your role in preventing deomestic violence. The question should be, how can we define things as going too far, and what responses can we agree to follow to head things off? Can we practice the responses to heading things off, once a week or month, so we are smooth if things actully start that way.

The other woman should fall out of sight, if you get your own marriage working well. Right now, you have a ways to go. If you focus on the other woman, I don't see how you can get your marriage back together. Have you read 180 Degree Divorce busters under Negotiating in Marriage? One of the suggested changes is to ignore the idea of possible straying.

The books I have read dealing with marital boundaries are the Intimate Enemy books. Have you read Boundaries in Marriage, by Townsend and Cloud? I am looking for that book next for myself.

See other threads here, under Resolving Conflict: Violence by Praying in September has a lot of references.

Quipper

<small>[ October 17, 2003, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Thank you for your reply to my post. I am sorry it and this one are so long. It does seem to help to see it in writing though. Hope this helps to clarify.
There were two seperate incidents. The first one we were arguing because he had gone out and spent alot of money we could not afford to buy himself something that was not neccessary but that he wanted. It had put us in quite a bit of a bind, added to that was the fact that he had changed what was supposed to be a vacation for the two of us to a trip to his ex's to get pick up his daughter, grandchild and all their things so they could come live with us. I was not happy about any of this and was angry enough to tell him I needed him to "just go away(we were in the bedroom)and leave me alone". When I said that,and those were the exact words, he grabbed me ground his fist into my face and proceeded to tell me he was not going anywhere that I had to leave and not come back. As I had no money(mine was spent on bills)and no gas and no friends in the area(mine are all in my home state) I fought back hard. The police were called and it was off to jail for both of us. Him because I was mildy bloody, shaken and obviously hurt and me because I was stupid enough to try to take some of the blame to keep him from getting into trouble.
The second incident happen about a month after the first. We were arguing about how he was treating my son unfairly in relation to his daughter,(She can do not wrong he can do no right). I told him that from that point on I would treat his daughter exactly the way he treated my son. He then picked me up by my throat and shoved me against a wall. Luckily he dropped me fairly quickly and I called the police. He went to jail. He has now been convicted for the second incident and we are going to court for the first incident soon.
Immediatly following the first incident he promised to go to counseling. We had one session with our pastor, husband sat through the whole thing not saying much. He refused to go back.
He says now that I never let him alone when I was angry about something, that I would not give him his space to cool down. I believe there is validity in that. On the other hand he has never been able to articulate his feelings well and instead of saying I need to think and come back to this he just shuts down. Saying I don't know or I don't care.
Looking back now I can see there was a very distinct change in both of our behaviors when the children moved in with us. My son came first. He is 17 and has always been a difficult child. He had been living with his father and had been thrown out by father. Four months later my husbands daughter came to stay for a week and decided to stay. Hence the change in plans. She is 17 and her son is two. We were all crammed into a very small house with very little money. Stress was high to say the least.
Now as to the Song of Soloman reference. I have always been a giver. I cooked for, cleaned up after and made mad passionate love to my husband through out all of this. He being a taker, took all I had to give and found fault with most of it. I grew angry and resentful. Imagine that. Our relationship spiralled into his distancing and my pushing.
I moved back to my home state when he filed for divorce. I will not file because of my religous beliefs. My place of employment was good enough to arrange a transfer to my home town and I am now in a house with my son and he is in our old one with his daughter and grandbaby.
I do not want a divorce. I want my husband to grow up take responsability for himself and put our marriage first. There are many wonderful things about my husband, unfortunately they are overshadowed at this point by the bad.
At this point I feel like I am in limbo. I cannot go back, do not want to, nor can I go forward without walking away from my marriage. When he put the divorce on hold to try to work it out I got my hopes up and after we met it seemed like we were going to make progress. Immediately after that though he pulled away again. He told me last night that he was scared but could not or would not tell me what he was afraid of. I had just found out about the woman he was talking to online and on the phone and was not happy about it. He said that he was not going to stop saying hi to her (he has spent many hours on the phone with her). I had already told him I could not and would not share him with other women when we met this last time. I explained to him that this was a deal breaker. That to me he is giving to another woman that which he has consistantly refused to give to me(his emotions, thoughts, feelings). And that if he was going to give those to other women and not to me there was no point in our being married to just go ahead with the divorce and be done with it. He says he does not want to do that at this point. He then asked me why I continued to push him when he said he did not want to talk about something. I told him because he would never come back to it. Avoidance is one of his defense mechanisms. He did agree to come back to the point and try to talk about the issue in a week. We talked about little things for a long time, but it tears me apart to hear about the animals I had to leave behind and how he is changing the house I worked so hard to make into a home that in the end I told him I could not keep hanging on hoping for him to want to try. I told him that I was not going to contact him again. If he wants to talk to me he will have to initiate contact and do the work. That way he can have all the space he needs and I am not pushing him and not hurting myself as a byproduct of trying to be friends. I am just trying to let him go. Unfortunately letting go is never easy for me. I tend to either walk completely away or become fully invested. I have never been wishy washy in the least. I just don't know how to stay invested and still let go. How do you do that? I don't want my marriage to end but do not want to live as we were, absolutely cannot do so, I do not want to go out with anyone else yet I do not want to spend my time moping around the house. I am afraid to commit myself to any real projects here because a large part of me is hoping we can still work this out and yet to put my entire life on hold seems incredibly stupid. How do you let go and hold on at the same time? What do you do with yourself. Limbo.
To all of you out there reading thanks for listening. Please feel free to reply. I can use any and all help.

Dear Surviving Today,

Suppose he called you and said he wanted you back, and would meet all your demands. No OW, and no violence. What would you say?

You said you had no way to give space at your husband's house, if he was starting to lose it. Is there anyway you can see now, to give space if you were to go back?

You said he talks freely to OW. Is there any way that you can give him the feeling of comfort with which to share his life with you? Are there ways for you to be encouraging that you are withholding?

What do you expect to happen now, that you have told im that you won't be contacting hime? How do you see the relationship proceeding? Plan B is where you have given up, or he is teetering. Are you now through, and ready to think about othe things? What other things? How is your son doing? What can you tell us about the animals at your husband's house?

Is there any way to avoid the involvement of the police? The description that you have given of hte two incidents make them seem like they came up suddenly. Looking back, can you find any indicators that you could watch for next time, and have strategies planned.

For difficult teenagers, I am reading Patterson 1987, Castalia Press, 1-541-343-4433, $35.00. If you and your husband took a tough teenager parenting course, you might do better with your son, and he might be able to give his daughter better direction.

Quipper

<small>[ October 17, 2003, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

I want to answer these as honestly as I can so I copied them and will adress each issue seperately.

"Suppose he called you and said he wanted you back, and would meet all your demands. No OW, and no violence. What would you say?"

Well I don't really feel like they are demands just boundries. I cannot live with these things in our marriage. He can choose to continue them if he wants but I will not live with them at all. Not a demand, a boundry. Now with that said I would ask him how he plans to go about not doing these things and what can I do to make it easier..in other words..if and that is a big if..I would then do anything within my power to make it work.

"You said you had no way to give space at your husband's house, if he was starting to lose it. Is there anyway you can see now, to give space if you were to go back?"

What I said was we were crammed into a very small house, but there is a barn and if he would or could have articulated that he needed space and would just like to cool down so we could discuss things rationally I could have happily done so if only by going into another room than the one he was in or one of us going out to the horses or even just sticking my nose in a book and ignoring him. He did not/could not. In fact that is one of the things we addressed last night. Why I was pushing him when he said he could not talk about how he was feeling..I told him I push because he would not come back to the issue if he could avoid it and his avoidance of the issue was painful for me..When he then said well I will come back to it we agreed to readdress the issue in a week to give him time to think without me pushing him. This was truly a big change for him and I know it took effort. In the past he would not tell me what was going on with him, he just shut me out completely and avoided talking to me. If I asked what was going on with him he would say "Nothing" or "I don't know" and nothing would budge him from that. So many issues were never addressed because he just shut down. So much pain could have been avoided if he had been able to do so. And I am praying that in a week he is able to call me and address the issue if only to say I am still thinking about that and will get back to you on it when I can explain it to myself.
"You said he talks freely to OW. Is there any way that you can give him the feeling of comfort with which to share his life with you? Are there ways for you to be encouraging that you are withholding?"

I am really struggling with this. It is hard and very painful to listen to him talk about all the things I a missing(the grandbaby's 2nd birthday, the little girl next door starting to talk) and the changes he is making to what was our home and still be cheerful. I want to be his friend. I miss his friendship most of all. But I end up hurt and crying when we try to talk superfically(spelling?) I do not want to withhold anything from him, not my love or my friendship, and certainly not my encouragement. I freely admit that I am a classic giver. I recognize that he is working on himself and I know that is hard to do. I am working on myself too(setting and keeping boundries is a big step for me and of course I am here). And I am so proud of him for adressing the issues by going to a counselor, 'cause I know that is a huge blow to his pride to not be able to handle something on his own. And I have told him this. But anytime I ask him about how he is doing he gets defensive and accuses me of being nosey. He does not seem to want it to be any of my business.

"What do you expect to happen now, that you have told im that you won't be contacting hime?"

I don't expect anything. I do not have any control over what he does or does not do. He knows he is welcome to contact me. He knows I want him to, that has never been an issue. The issue is whether he really wants this or not. And if he does not nothing I do or say makes any difference and if he does then he will contact me.

"How do you see the relationship proceeding?"
At this point I do not see the relationship proceeding at all. The wheels have fallen off. It is buried up to it's axles in mud and I cannot make it move by myself no matter what I try. I will work beside him to fix it if he wants me to, bury myself up to my soul next to him to try to fix it but I cannot do it by myself. I alone am not enough to fix the both of us. I can only work on myself and learn as much as I can about how to not do any more damage than I have already and if and when we get it fixed how to maintain it so that it does not fall apart again. And in the mean time I pray alot. I just hope that Gods will is in line with mine. Because if I know only one thing for sure it is that His will will be done. Not mine.

"Plan B is where you have given up, or he is teetering. Are you now through, and ready to think about othe things?"
I do not want to give up. I am not through. God and my husband willing I will not give up. But the willingness has to be there.
"What other things?"
I am thinking about going back to school. This situation has made me very aware that I do not want to struggle the rest of my life with bills and money worries. I went to college when the kids were little but I did not finish..I was immature and was trying to raise two little kids on my own(my daughter is now 19, graduated high school this year. YEAH. and is in another state living with her boyfriend.BOO. She is looking into college.YEAH.)
"How is your son doing?"
Thank you for asking. My son is hurt and very angry and even if I did or do go back I do not believe that my son will. He is 17 and H hurt him emotionally as well as me..There was also one physical confrontation between them between violent episodes 1 and 2..H did several times ask son to leave him alone before he exploded and in that instance he had gone out to the barn to get away. Son would not quit. (Hmmm, wonder where he learned that!)
"What can you tell us about the animals at your husband's house?"
I had to leave my horse and my cats there as I had no way to take them with me. Logistically the move was a nightmare with out trying to add one horse and 8 barn cats to the two dogs I did take, along with all my furniture and household goods in a seventeen foot Uhaul and a Neon. He has since taken my horse back where we got her and most of my cats are dead or disappeared. His 3 horses of course are still there. His dog stayed with him. I don't know what hurts the most, the horse that was supposed to be mine and is now not mine somehow or the cats. The cats supposedly are getting eaten by coyotes, but I also suspect he is not feeding them enough since he really did not ever want them in the first place. I was a package deal. He knew that when he married me.

"Is there any way to avoid the involvement of the police? The description that you have given of hte two incidents make them seem like they came up suddenly."
Well the really weird thing is the first time I did not call the police. It was all so surreal, and it happened so quickly..really very out of the blue and I did not want him to get in trouble..even to the point of taking half the blame and going to jail myself.(This of course is classic codependant behaviour, I know this, recognize it and am astounded that I did it.) The second time I could not/would not allow it to happen. I could not stop the attack and there were no indicators to say it was going to happen other than the first incident(now I think that should have been enough but apparently I am a little dense) So calling the police seemed like the only way to go to avoid getting seriously hurt.
"Looking back, can you find any indicators that you could watch for next time, and have strategies planned."
If I knew what had set him off I could avoid it but to this day he cannot not tell me what that was and that is why he is in counseling. He truly does not know himself, and it scares him to think that he could have hurt me physically and he does not know why.

"For difficult teenagers, I am reading Patterson 1987, Castalia Press, 1-541-343-4433, $35.00. If you and your husband took a tough teenager parenting course, you might do better with your son, and he might be able to give his daughter better direction."

I have tried just about every thing with my son. He has been to counselors, we have tried medication, he has been hospitalized once and so far nothing has really helped. The ironic thing is since we have moved back to our home town my son has settled down quite abit. He is not as arguementative. He is getting up and going to school on his own. He is communicating with me in ways he never has. I don't know why or if it will last but I am praying and trusting that God will take care of him. I surely do want it to continue. I will check out the book. I have read alot on parenting, and am always open to anything that might help. As for H I will suggest it if he still wants to try to make our marriage work. God knows and so does H that I do want our marriage to work more than anything else I have ever wanted in my life.

I hope this helped answer the questions. I really do appreciate you addressing this. I really wish now that I had not told him that I would not call him. I think it was a mistake. I think now that I should have kept trying to be pleasant and be his superficial friend if that is all he could handle. Unfortunately I cannot figure out a way to undo that. Any suggestions? Anyway thanks for listening and helping me to clarify.

Dear Surviving Today,

It is easy for me to give suggestions of wording how to aproach reversing a postion that has been taken. It is more difficult for you to chose some words and actually try to make that phone call.

First, you might simply be still and see if there seems to be a right time to call. I suppose there could be good times and bad times. Whenever I start a conversation, I ordinarily ask if this is an OK time to talk, or should I call back at another time. "Do you have a couple minutes to talk now, or should I call back at another time?"

I learned that from a tall, recovering alcoholic in a telephone sales office. That allows the person to choose another time for you, if they are genuinely busy.

To revesrs your postition, "I told you I was not going to call you, and the reason I did that is NOT because I don't love you, but rather because I feel I need more from you. I want to give you more, also, do more for you. I believe you are already doing quite a bit, on my behalf, and I don't want to give the idea that I don't recognize and appreciate the progress you are making. So I am calling even though I said I wouldn't call you. I have been working on myself, also. I was just feeling.......

You have mentioned getting together to talk. is ther some way to get together to do more than talk?

I told my 26 year old college student son this morning that I felt shortchanged because he had left his personal articles in the living room area. He said he would pick them up, and he started picking his things up, before I left for work. I am learning to set boundaries.

I had take my son out for a pizza, and told my son, during our conversations, that I could not throw him out, becasue my wife's name is on the house deed. But I could stop paying the bills. I told him that I would turn over the mail box key to him, if he wanted it. The bills that need to be paid come in the mail.

I seem to be achieving some respect, for the moment.

It was good that your son has the backbone not to back down from a confrontation when he felt that it was important. Now, perhaps you can help your son to apply some wisdom to the battles he chooses to fight.

Blessings,

Quipper

Well I sent him an email. It seemed like the safest way to go. I forwarded a poem his dad sent me that had a lot of meaning to the situation and told him why I said what I said and that I do want our marriage to work and that I was just trying to give him space. When I signed onto my messenger he was on so I asked him if he recieved the email. He said yeah. I asked if he wanted me to leave him alone. He said yeah. I said ok and then asked if there was a good time for him. He said I don't know. So there it is in a nutshell. He does not know. I said ok and left him alone. I am trying to hang on to hope but it is fading with every I don't know. Monday I am going to seek out a counselor here, and check into some antidepressent meds. It seems crazy to me to feel this bad if I do not have to. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Dear Surviving Today,

One reason not to call is that it takes a risk of rejection, and that hurts, and takes your energy. Plan B, or not contacting, can save the love you have for your husband, and reduce the energy and ego loss from making an effort to contact your husband. So maybe it is time to work on Number One, Yourself. Make yourself happy.

I enjoy a liesurely bath. Go for a swim. Is there a horse rental place there? Going riding seems to get my mind better in tune with other people. The Horse stops, then I have to go back, and get the horse going faster to get him past his stopping place. I need to anticpate where he is going to stop or try to turn, and I need to be thinking ahead of the horse. You probably are much more advanced than me, but that is my level.

Blessings,

Quipper