Last night my husband told me that he wants to get involved in a real estate deal with his daughter and son in law. Property $140K, construction loan $90K. When I questioned him about it, he informed me that he had already been approved for the loan and wanted my support. Considering I am the one who handles all the finances and am currently looking for a job, I feel that he was sneaking around behind my back on this. He says he didn't tell me before because I am "negative" about stuff like this. Any suggestions for me?

Hi...welcome to MB.
Make sure to check out the new member thread on the EN board (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=017544).

Without knowing anything about your relationship, I would suggest you focus on radical honesty (there is plenty of info on this web site). A big part of RH is creating a safe environment for your spouse to be honest. Evidently, he did not feel comfortable talking to you about this financial investment because you are "negative"...therefore, it isn't a safe environment for him. Let him know that you value honesty and really pay attention to how you respond to him when he is honest about things that you dislike. Your reaction is very important. You might not feel like you are doing anything wrong, but he must or he wouldn't have felt the need to keep this information from you.
There's great information on this site...take some time to read.
Take care,
Smile

Dear Feeling Betrayed,

Certainly Smile a day has wise words. I will try to bring up some additional angles.

Yes you are angry. Human beings get angry when they find out they have been sonokered. The question is, should you give them Hell, or is there some other approach that might be more in your long-term interests?

Do you feel that your husband has taken irrevocable steps toward the deal? How is your relation with your step-daughter?

My wife recently asked me to consider buying another house with our daughter who came into some money. I said I would look at anything they felt was worthwhile, but that I did not feel like a prime mover for the idea. They found one house they liked, I had problems with it. They found another, I looked at it, but I had problems with it also. Each time, when I said no, my wife got disappointed.

Theoretcically you have the right to say no, under the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA. But there will probably be disappointment. It is not clear from your post, if there is a legal way to back out of the deal now. Is there a penalty now, if they back out of the deal? How Much?

You can mention to your husband, that in the future, it would be smoother, if he told you about things while they were in the planning stages, so you could suggest contractors or locations, or realtors, etc.

You have not mentioned if there are realtors involved, with commision contracts. Once you look at a house, or a lot, with a realtor, you have essentially locked yourself into a realty contract.

Buying a house is an emotional event, and building a house, is more emotional, as there is more time over which many more things can go wrong.

If you are out of work, then it seems that your husband could have found you with time to listen to a new idea, if he had just asked.

When my wife gets me in a corner, and I know it is going to cost me too much to win the point, I take on a lesser issue, and say, "OK, I agree to A, provided that you agree to C, D and E. OK?"

Maybe you have lost this battle, but there must be other things that are on your wish list.

In thinking about real estate, buying a lot, and building a home, is one way to substantially increase the value of the investment. Once landscaping is in and the house is actaully working. A bargaining position might be, "Well I want half the profits, when it is sold, and I want the right to sell the house, anything after two years after it is built."

Setting a boundary for this type of snookering could be stated, "I feel deliberately snookered, and I want to know how you intend to make this up to me, in a way that is satisfactory to me."

To your step daughter, "Listen dear, the last thing I want to do is to take your new house away from you. But, us girls need to stick to gether a little bit better than this. Now in the future, I expect to have lunch with you once in a while, and you let me know what's going on. I want to be on your side, but I also want you on my side." Isn't that similar to reality shows where people get voted off?

Since you have been slighted, you can give them a tizzie. However, more artfully, you can use the guilt that might be there, to your advantage, through conditional forgiveness.

Perhaps there is a better way to describe conditional forgiveness. But my idea is that if I have lost, then I will try to get what I can out of any associated guilt that I can generate.

You now have a guilt generator in your hand, and let us know what concessions you desire, Which ones you ask for, and which ones you actually win.

I felt that my 25 year old son was less positive than desirable. I spent $1600.00 on a Dale Carnegie Course. He is now somewhat more positive. He still has not gotten enough college creddits to support himself, and is continuing to pile up the bills. Dale Carnegie has less expensive seminars. "Hey, you feel I am negative, then I'll do some Dale Carnegie." I have also found positive value from Silva Method, negotiating seminars, Scientolgy books, tapes and classes. I am currently working on the Patterson Adolescent books, 1987, which stress positive stroking.

Welcome aboard the MB Train,

Quipper
Married 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling.

<small>[ October 26, 2003, 02:52 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Thanks for your input. My husband was already totally committed to this deal. After reading Quippers response, I decided to use the guilt generator suggestion. Since he went behind my back on this I told him that I needed to be able to trust him in the future. What I want is for you to take your name off the title to our home, your truck, our bank accounts...and to let me put half our savings in an account in my name alone. If you do that, I will support you in this deal. That was last night and he hasn't told me whether he will agree to this or not.

Will you know the outcome.

Thanks again.

well, your husband hasn't done anything yet. to get approved for any loan does not mean that you have spent the money. i believe any considerable amount of money to be spent should be discussed by both the husband and wife. to not do it is being completely inconsiderate and selfish. the act of these two words are not good for a strong relationship. talk to your husband about this and tell him to consider your thoughts when he makes any significant financial decision.

dear Feeling Betrayed,

It sounds like you found a direct expression of your feelings about trust issues.

The fact that your husband went to bed without a full rebuttal indicates that he might be getting the message about trust.

From a legal standpoiont, many title Guarnatee insurance companies require both sigantures of a man and a wife on the deed of sale of a family house, so you may not want to put up a major battle on that issue, as it may not have much real meaning, but you should not take my word for that. A realtor, Title Comany or Lawyer in your jurisdiction should have more accurate info.

How much money has your husband actually put up or committed to? Is your step-daughter going to live in the home? Will she be able to make the house payments? How is your relationship with your step-daughter? Any ideas to be able to improve relations with her?

How is H holding up otherwise? Have you thought of any alternatives that might also be on your wish list?

I really have never made such grand demands as you have. My hat is off to you for your gradeur. I might have said something like, "Well since you got your daughter a new house, then I want to buy a new toaster."

Keep us readers posted,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

Dear Quipper,

The deal was to purchase a home just to renovate and sell. My step-daughter and her husband live several streets from the property they want to buy. They just bought their house in December 2002 - paid $328K for it and didn't have enough down so they have to pay PMI insurance on it. Son-in-law works on 1099 commission and he didn't put money for taxes so they are now making payments to the IRS (amount owed is $17,000). They can't afford to buy a second car and according to my stepdaughter they pay their bills when they get their commission checks (she sells insurance). Although my husband says they made $300K last year, since they are both rely on commissions to live, this was concern for me since they owe so much. This project is simply an investment that they have rushed into.

I ran the economics and went through them with H but he really didn't understand. The way I figured it they each have to come up with $7,000 just to close on the conventional mortage of $140,000. Then I went through the construction loan and worst case if they hade to take out permanent financing is house didn't sell. H is supposed to get paid $15K for being general contractor but when I told him that he would paying that back against the loan, he asked why he was different the plumber. Told him the plumber didn't have a loan he was paying on. Once H laid out all my questions to son in law, son in laws response was that I didn't need to know who the lender was. I don't know about you but even if I was included up front, I would still have all these questions and it really bothers me that son in law thinks I am questioning his abilities. What is your take on that?

My stepdaughter hates me. She was 16 when we got married and H would give her his last dime even if it meant he couldn't pay his bills. That stopped when we got married and she still resents me for it. I worked very hard to develop a realtionship with her while she was in college and had actually gotten quite far. She would call me up and ask for a ladies night out cause she needed to talk. For her wedding, even we gave them a nice gift, I took her and bought all her jewelry and bought her lingerie. This was my personal gift to her. They got married and moved to CA for a short period of time. Son in law thought he was going to become a millionaire out there but the .com companies started going downhill. She called me and told me they were coming back home and could they stay with us until they found jobs and a place to live. Told her ok but she would have to have her cat stay with her mom as I already have several cats myself. Note that when she called me her comment was "I can't stay at my Grandmas because my brother is staying there and I can't stay with my Mom (for various reasons) so can we stay with you? I was looking forward to it and thought we would be able to develop a closer relationship. Wrong...when they got here, the first thing she did was ask her Dad if she could keep her cat here even though we had already agreed the cat would stay at her Mom's. Strike #1. Then my living room became littered with shoes that she didn't bring up to their room and I suggested they take them to storage along with their other stuff. Strike #2. The third strike came when I left a note on our PC about not using it again until we talked as it was acting weird. She took offense at this. Oh, I forgot son in law brought me flowers and when I saw them I grimanced because I knew my cats would demolish them but she thought I didn't appreciate the flowers. Do you see a pattern here? She told her Dad that I didn't greet them when they came in - the fact that I was flat on my face doing my stretching excerises was no excuse. By now I am getting frustrated, nothing I did or didn't do would make her happy. Have to admit that my husband did tell her that if she didn't like it here she could move out. Whick is excactly what she did - after 1 week. Now she is mad at her Dad. She did not speak to us for 2 1/2 years. When they bought the house in December all of a sudden she is speaking to us. Did I mention my H is a very talented carpenter? She wanted him to finish her basement, office, bathroom, etc. When she comes over she give me a big hug and acts like we are the very best of friends. My problem is that she has not addressed the problem 2 1/2 years ago. Just sweep it under the rug.

Actually if he accepted my requirements to support him in this endeavor, I was going to add 2 more. #1 - swear on his childrens lives that he would never go behind my back again and #2 that he take me on a 10 day dive trip (we are scuba divers) to Cozumel.

He left me a message on our answering machine yesterday morning that he was thinking about backing out of the deal. When he got home, he didn't discuss it at all. Said he stopped at the bank to deposit his paycheck so I didn't need to go to the bank to do it.

Now comes Thursday morning. He calls to ask me to pick up some stuff he needs for his trip (he is going to visit his Dad) and to tell me the address of the place they plan on buying. When I ask who the lender is and what is the interest rate on the construction loan - his answer is that son in laws says it is not important. Then he says he will not do any of the things I requested and that I am not being fair. My reply is that at least I am trying to work out a way for me to be comfortable and he didn't even give me that opportunity when he committed to this deal. Says he will show me the paperwork when he gets it from the son in law and I say it doesn't matter since I will not be a part of it and that they can hire someone to do all the paperwork they expected me to do. Now he gets really angry. I am so upset I am crying and tell him that I can't talk to him now and I'll call him back later, goodbye and I hang up. He calls back on my cell phone, I don't answer and he leaves me a voice mail saying OK, he will do what I requested. 15 minutes later the house phone rings and it is him. He says that (1) his marriage is important to him and (2) he is worried about his credit. Now he decides that he is not going to be part of the deal but will just do what he was originally going to do. I ask him to clarify exactly what he means (we have a difficult time communicating). Ok, he says, I am not going to invest in the deal, just do the carpentry work and collect $15K. They are still going ahead with deal although it may be hard for them to come up with the money that H is not going to provide. Note that son in law told me that he didn't need our money, they had money of their own to do the deal. Funny how the story changes. H says when they make their profit and I can see what they did, then he wants in on the next deal. I say as long as we decide "together" to do it, fine, I am open to that.

Well, now comes the kicker. I am checking our accounts on line and see that he has taken out everything except $1,000. Now, I am steaming! Call him and ask him if he has anything he wants to tell me. He says, like what? Oh, I don't know, anything that you think is important. Then he says, you already know what I did - got excited yesterday and took the money out. I tell him he is unbelievable! His words to me were that I needed to trust more and now he has done this. That is the pot calling the kettle black! H says, he is stopping at the bank tonight to put it back in.

So, isn't my roller coaster a riot! I am ready to have a nervous breakdown over this. I don't know exactly he will decide to do or not to do next.

It is 4:40 p.m. on Thursday, 10/30/03 now and I don't know what he will have to say or do when he gets home but he is leaving Friday morning for a week - we both need the time apart.

Feeling Betrayed here again. It is now 5:28, H just called and said he couldn't make to the bank tonight and also spoke to son in law. Son in law is going to do deal himself (take out the loans) but needs an inverstor. Guess who the investor is going to be? H is going to "invest" $10K. He will get that back when the house sells and also 30% of the profit. I am supposed to be happy? Again, he makes this decision behind my back. I don't understand, he knows I am upset about him making decisions behind my back and within 1 week, he does it twice! Maybe he is certifiable!

Suggestions?

Dear Feeling Betrayed,

Certifiable.

However, these people in your life are operating from motives. Motives can be understood. Once motives are clear, then ou can predict behavior of others, and you can plan, keeping several steps ahead of where you know they are likely to go.

You may think you are emotionally upset, but you sound fairly cogent and logical to me.

You may be confused, however, because the motives of each player may not be clear to you, and their operating principles may also be unclear to you.

There are some groupings of human behaviors, that are described in the Scientology Handbook, ($100.00) I did not ask if you have problems with Scientolgy, but for me, there are some dynamics of human behavior that are explained by the Handbook, etc. in an understandable fashion. I am going to suggest that your family members may fit into some particularly difficult categories. Of course I may be wrong. Tell me where I am wrong, and I will try to revise to the correct categories. Often people post to MB because the people they are dealing with, are difficult types of people. If their family members were cooperative and easy to understand, MB would have few posters, or readers.

Your husband has done things that make it seem like he is being overly influenced by others. Your Step-daughter and Son-in-Law, for instance. This is called PTS/SP A PTS person is easily influenced by others. PTS means Potential Trouble Source.

So understanding your husband's behavior in this matter, is simple, PTS. Your option, other than getting naturally upset, is to help your husband handle or disconnect. Fair Roads, Good Weather is a term for talking to others, without buying into what they are selling. Shining people on is a slang expressin of the concept. To help your husband escape the magic spell of your step-daughter and Son-In-Law, you can coach your husband as to how he is going to handle his phrases with his spell binders. If you are having trouble with that coaching, post back, and we can discuss it.

Your daughter and son-in-law are being sneaky and manipulative. Fairly easy to understand. They are artfully stabbing you in the back, to your husband, every chance they get. See the chapter on the Tone Scale, 1.1, Covert Hostility.

I have spent 3 decades working to improve my understanding of how to deal with sneaky people. There are a few rules I have developed for myself.

I am ordinarily an open and helpful kind of person. A soft touch, really. The rules for dealing with sneaky backstabbers is to minimize the information you give to them, double-check behind anything that they tell you, and keep a few steps ahead of them in their relations with other significant people, like your husband.

Easier said than done. Obviously, you are playing catch-up with the house investment.

Some other rules for sneaky peope, don't let them know that you are on to them. Just smile, politely, and act like you are stupid, and have not idea of what they are saying behind your back. Do not talk to sneaky people about any complex ideas, or new approaches. Sneaky people have a lot of lies stacked up, and new ideas means they have to go back and review all their previous lies, which is a lot of reviewing.

The message of sneaky people is that bad things happen to good people. A good response to anything they say, is, "Well you certainly can't be too careful these days." Basically sneaky people are in Fear, and are afraid. Their hope is by pointing out the bad things in others, that they will be safe. Actually their vision is that they have received a death sentence, and they are smoking their last cigarrette, with the firing squad loading their guns. Since there will be no tomorrow, any lies to distract others is logical. Even if lies will be discovered within one hour, the lie must be artfuly fabricated. Creating chaos is their objective. They believe, that through chaos, there is some chance that the firing squad will somehow get derailed, and their life will be spared.

Hopefully I have given you enogh constructs to think about where I am wrong, so you can post back my errors.

Post back,

Quipper

<small>[ October 31, 2003, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Dear Feeling Betrayed,

What you need is a new plan. Your previous plan of having your husband's name on all the accounts with your money in the accounts did not work very well. You thought you were in control of the money, so you were surprised when he pulled the money out of the bank.

Each marriage has its own way of working out money. Most divorces are about money.

It seems to me that your family is trustworthy to an extent, just less trustworthy than you had previously thought, or had planned for.

What changes can you make now? Can you open a separate account so you can keep some money for your account? Can you get a job with a better retirement program, so that if H goes south with the money, that you are not left high and dry?

My wife is PTS, and easily influenced by others. I negotiate with her each month, up to the 14th, when the mortgage checks have to be Federal Expressed to the Mortgage Company. She has her accounts, I have my accounts, and we have negotiations for several weeks each month.

Since you thought you had things under control, it is probably a shock to have your chair knocked out from underneath of you.

Do you have a good support group? Can you get one together? Some churches have caring circles you can join, without much formality.

Write out the checks, except for the signature, and let your husband sign the the checks from his account. If they bounce, he signed them. Shift the responsibilty for paying the bills with 0 money, to him. Have him open his own checking account.

Perhaps let him take care of the bills. Stack them up for him. One lady in line at the DMV mentioned she kept her bills in the original mailing envelopes, and kept them in Gallon Zip Lock Bags. I found her method workable. I mark the due date for each bill on the top of the envelope. I make a copy of each bill, and place each copy in a three ring binder. If my wife wants to follow what I do, it is all there, in a binder, next to the TV.

Let's talk systems.

Dean 790 brought up honesty. From what you are telling me, you would be wasting your time to discuss honesty. They have demonstrated dishonesty, to a certain degree. My formula is to smile, and don't let them get the better of you. Just shift the burden of any problems to them, and let them figure it out. Just smile and act happy and unconcerned. Check to see if the beds at the nearest shelter are full. If you don't have to travel too far to find a shelter with a bed, don't worry about the problems they created.

Take care of your self-esteem,

Quipper,
Married 28 years and still struggling

<small>[ October 31, 2003, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>