Hello,

I am male, have been married for 30 years, the last 10 of which has been a deep struggle. We are both strong Christians, pray together every night, spend time with each other and with our kids. Yet, there are serious problems that I can't seem to resolve.

Briefly, I don't desire my wife, don't desire to be with her, to seek her out. At least on the surface. Instead I am intimidated by her. Deep down I want my marriage to work so I do work at it! I've Read countless books, the Concepts in this site, been to marriage counseling, etc. However, all my work comes to naught because my wife can tell that I do it all out of a sense of duty and obligation. Where is the passion for her, the joy? Instead, I dread going home after work, to face this terrible emotional black hole.

We we take time often and talk for hours sharing honestly with each other (everything you are reading, I have told her), even praying about it, trying to work this out, but it results in frustration, usually crying, because we don't see an answer. She doesn't want a husband who is intimidated. But, I can't fake the way I feel. We are both sick of this endless cycle.

What am I afraid of? What do her desperate pleas of affection do to me? It emphasizes that I am an insufficient husband. Because what kind of man doesn't have passion for his wife, who is weak and afraid? So this cycle feeds my fear that I am an unworthy person. So fear clouds our marriage.

So, Valentines Day looks bleak because I have nothing to offer her but a passionless date. She hates it and so do I but what else do I do?

She doesn't want to go to counseling and gets very hurt whenever I have brought it up as if it is a cop-out. There is a lot I have left out, so this may process may take a lot of conversation on this forum to talk it through, but I am desperate. If you can take the time, I would appreciate it.

FR

You mentioned that you have read BC, has your W? Does your W see the same issues? Or is everything fine as far as she is concerned.

How about in terms of Dr. H's recommendations for together time and such?

I assume you married her for good reasons, what has happened to those reasons now? Is it stress? Job related stuff? What needs aren't being met?

You say that you've been to counseling, but I can't tell if that's the plural you, or just you individually, as you mention later that your W doesn't want to go to counseling.

What part of counseling does she see as a cop-out? That if you go to MC to try to heal your marriage you're worse off than trying to bull your way through on your own?

Why do you say you are intimidated by your wife? What actions cause you to feel this way? When you discuss these actions with your W, what response does she have to how you feel with whatever intimidates her?

Answering some or all of these questions can help us help you better.

And lastly, welcome to MB. It really can help. Don't lose all hope yet.

Jaye,

Thanks for your response. Sorry about the delay on my side, I had technical difficulties with the site and assumed that my post didn't work. Anyway, thanks again, my response below:

posted February 09, 2005 08:05 PM                     
>You mentioned that you have read BC, has your W? Does your >W see the same issues? Or is everything fine as far as she is >concerned.

My wife is not interested in another marriage book, set of 10 helpful ways to boost your marriage, or any 3rd party help. The BC is just another thing like that. She has seen me read dozens of books and nothing seems to help.

She sees the problem as very simple. She just wants me to hear her and communicate with her. Specifically to get into her world and show interest there. She has no interest in outside help. She sees me as stubborn and selfish, and perhaps passive agressive, punishing her.

>How about in terms of Dr. H's recommendations for together >time and such?

We do spend time together, I should say that I force myself to spend time with her. Try to ask the right questions to get in her world. It is very uncomfortable and it seems that neither of us can stand it for long. She knows I am nervous and that is not fun for her. It's not the full 15 hours a week. When we go out for an evening, it is usually a stressful experience. I hate to admit this, but once when were at a restaurant, I got an emergency call that one of my relatives was taken to the emergency room hospital. Instead of being filled with concern for my relative, I was actually relieved for the forced interruption of my date.

>I assume you married her for good reasons,

I wonder, could I have just been selfish? I thought I knew what love was, she claims I have no idea. It certainly felt right at the time. All this trouble has shaken the foundation of my faith, maybe I really am just a selfish jerk and all along I have just been fooling myself.

> what has happened to those reasons now? Is it stress? Job
> related stuff? What needs aren't being met?

Throughout our early marriage, she met my needs, I thought I was meeting hers. I feet good about myself. I have need of affirmations and she provided that. Her needs are for quality time and the physical. Now she is tired of giving me affirmations (and refuses to do so), because what's the use? She doesn't get what she needs.

From my perspective, she is very cold to me. How do I work up passion or desire to be with someone so stiff? Sex can't even get off the ground. Meaningful conversation can't even get started because I am lost in my efforts just to feel comfortable in her presence.


>You say that you've been to counseling, but I can't tell if that's >the plural you, or just you individually, as you mention later >that your W doesn't want to go to counseling.

I have been personally, and we have both been together. She doesn't like the experiences, the last time, she had no respect for the counselor.

I was the last one to visit a counselor and did so on my own. I got a lot of grief from my W because she felt I was talking to him instead of to her.

>What part of counseling does she see as a cop-out? That if you >go to MC to try to heal your marriage you're worse off than >trying to bull your way through on your own?

Again, she sees the problem as very simple, not complex enough for counseling. "Just communicate with me", she cries. She sees my failure to do this as some kind of refusal and stubborness on my part. "Why do we need counseling?" I should just change my attitude. When I bring up going to MC again, she comes unglued with grief and anger.


>Why do you say you are intimidated by your wife?

I feel afraid when I am with her. It's interesting, but I have never known the kind of fear that I have experienced being alone with her. It's primal, deep, and I have literally got the shakes on occasion.


>What actions cause you to feel this way?

This is so difficult to answer. It has to do with her dis-approval of me. I interpret that as a deep wound of some kind. That I am unworthy.

Also there is a little bit of physical fear, when she is angry she thrashes around and throws stuff. I am uneasy and don't know what to expect. I am uncomfortable with radical behavior or any kind of violence. Last night she was so angry she through her mug of tea in my direction. I quietly cleaned it up.

>When you discuss these actions with your W, what response does she have to how you feel with whatever intimidates her?

She says that conversation always comes back to one thing: it's all about me: My fears, my defensiveness, my inadequacies. She is crying for me to meet her needs and I can only see my own fears. She is left with her needs unmet because my fears are a basic selfish indulgence. That is her position. She sees me as unwilling to get past my own problems and care for her. "Perfect love casts out fear" she has quoted. Therefore I must not love her. I don't know how to respond to that.

As an example of this situation, sometimes she has screamed at me "I need you to say something!!". Then I feel more intimidated, more quiet, litereally a deer in the headlights.


Thanks for helping,

FR

I am having a bit of trouble still wrapping my brain around the issue of what your wife is looking for tha tyou failed to provide. I understand communication, but can you give me an example of a specific situation where she said something, you responded (apparently in-appropriately), and then she's telling you?

Have you considered asking her exactly what she wants you to say? Not to be condescending to her, not to pacify her, but an example of something that you could've said in the moment, that you didn't, what she would've truly felt like you were communicating (as she defines it), so that you can perhaps learn by example?

I guess I can't quite tell if her screaming at you is abuse because she's angry, or is it a cry of pain from the pit of despair, and the only way she feels she can express the despair she feels is by screaming? (I'm not saying the screaming is a problem in itself, I'm just trying to understand where it's coming from in her psyche).

Have you just sat down with your wife, and said, "Look, I want for this relationship to work. I understand you are frustrated with me. I understand that you don't feel we communicate as we should. I really want to fix this. I seem to be stuck at exactly how to meet your need. I understand that there is a desire for communication, but I do not seem to be picking up the proper definition of communication. So I am asking if you will be willing to teach me what you need. That in the moment when you need me the most, and I don't seem to be meeting your need, you can tell me what kind of support or communication you are looking for, so I can then learn in my own mind, and begin to process in my own mind the desires tha tyou have, and how I can meet them, and train myself to meet them."

With all that said, I would encourage you to consider asking her to review at least BC with you. It's short, and sweet.

But your few paragraphs have me concerned. Because communication, true communication, will only take place at an intimate level, in a safe environment. Her treating you with disrespect, (regardless ofyour provocation, or your action or inaction at meeting her need), and the destroying the safe environment are going to make it very difficult for either of you to heal.

I am not heaping all the blame on her, I am just pointing out that by the dynamic that you currently have, healing will be difficult.

And I'm sorry, but the change is not all about you. Yes, there are things you can do differently. But I'm seeing on both your parts, a lack of trust. She doesn't trust you to meet her need, you don't trust her to provide a safe place to even attempt to meet her need.

She doesn't seem to be willing to express to you exactly how to meet her need, only holding you to a apparently unknowable standard, then marking you as a failure when you don't meet it. You have seemingly ignore her please for affection and interest, and thus forced her to withdraw.

I do not say these things to condemn, and some of them may not even be close to accurate, but I say them to point out that you're going on 10 years now of struggle. Obviously, the things that both ofy ou are trying aren't working. Or it wouldn't be a struggle after 10 years.

So you need to try something new. You need to break the vicious cycle that you appear to be locked in (This is a plural you, not a you you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).

Perhaps your W feels comfortable now in this "hostile truce" the two of you have negotiated. She may not be happy, but she knows where she stands. You're not happy, but you know where you stand. Impasse.

What happened in your previous MC sessions? Did you have a competent counselor?

The quality of your relationship should not be judged by the courtship phase. The ootzy gushy stuff that feels so right at the wedding ceremony, and during courting, and for a few weeks afterwards goes away. It takes real work to then turn around, and start building a relationship. Kids, careers, all that stuff, can take the place and steal time away from that process. But it's always out there, waiting.

I just finished listening to a 3 part series from Chuck Swindoll on "Getting through the tough stuff: Divorce", and ultimately, his point was, Love was nice if it happened, but marriage is baout commitment.

I am not yet finished processing all my thinking about his message, and I certainly have my own views on this stuff, not all of which agree with him. You might find it interesting listening, if only for yourself.

I guess when all is said and done, is that w/o your wife's at least grudging cooperation, I am not quite sure how you heal this marriage. You're kind of just tossing stuff out there, hoping to hit the target. In the meantime, you're being held accountable for not hitting it. Even tho' you don't know where it is, or anything else abou tit. W/o your W willing to partner with you to help you learn how to meet her needs, I am skeptical of any method succeeding.

From my own experience, in re-learning how to talk to my wife, the key for us was just empathetic listening. I used to always want to fix whatever the problem was that my W was talking about. Eventually, I realized I was sending all the wrong messages. That by interrupting her to tell her what I thought, I didn't value her speech. That by suggesting solutions, I thought she was too stupid to figure out the issue on her own.

Eventually, I learned to really listen. And to really tell her what she wanted to hear which was mainly affirmation that the problem was a problem, and that I had confidence she would work thorugh it. And if she needed my help, I was always there for her, but I wasn't ramming my help down her throat.

For us, that was a big part of how we didn't communicate, and it was a type of communication that my W was starved for. And once I learned to do it, it helps meet her need for communciation, adn then other areas began to improve.

I have no idea if that helps, but there it is, for what it's worth.

Jaye,

I am grateful that you would invest so much time and effort in such a comprehensive response to me! You have given me much to chew on. I will start chewing and respond in depth soon.

Again, thank you.

FR

JM: I am having a bit of trouble still wrapping my brain around the issue of what your wife is looking for tha tyou failed to provide. I understand communication, but can you give me an example of a specific situation where she said something, you responded (apparently in-appropriately), and then she's telling you?>

She wants me to use communication to seek her out, to get into her world. To ask questions and explore her life, desires, needs dreams, etc. She wants me to want her. I find this incredibly difficult. I can offer up questions, but I always lose focus trying to desperately think up a follow-up question. I am too stressed to actively pursue her. Instead I am trying to keep my head above water in the conversation. She is very hurt by this and interprets my mechanical approach as incincere.

JM: Have you considered asking her exactly what she wants you to say?>

Yes, absolutely. She gives me examples, but doesn’t want me to copy them by rote. She wants it from my heart.

JM: Not to be condescending to her, not to pacify her, but an example of something that you could've said in the moment, that you didn't, what she would've truly felt like you were communicating (as she defines it), so that you can perhaps learn by example?>

No matter how hard I try this, that’s what it is: “trying”. She calls it patronizing. And she is right that my heart is not in it, I dread it.

JM: I guess I can't quite tell if her screaming at you is abuse because she's angry, or is it a cry of pain from the pit of despair, and the only way she feels she can express the despair she feels is by screaming? (I'm not saying the screaming is a problem in itself, I'm just trying to understand where it's coming from in her psyche).>

I’ve seen both, her anger exploding and weeping with dispair, mostly anger though.

JM: Have you just sat down with your wife, and said, "Look, I want for this relationship to work. I understand you are frustrated with me. I understand that you don't feel we communicate as we should. I really want to fix this. I seem to be stuck at exactly how to meet your need. I understand that there is a desire for communication, but I do not seem to be picking up the proper definition of communication. So I am asking if you will be willing to teach me what you need. That in the moment when you need me the most, and I don't seem to be meeting your need, you can tell me what kind of support or communication you are looking for, so I can then learn in my own mind, and begin to process in my own mind the desires tha tyou have, and how I can meet them, and train myself to meet them.">

Yes, we’ve been down this path many times. She wants us to work together on this, but try as I might I don’t have a vision of what this looks like. In trying to “teach” me, she gives me examples, but she can’t reach my heart and calm my fears, or cause my heart to want to seek her.


JM: But your few paragraphs have me concerned. Because communication, true communication, will only take place at an intimate level, in a safe environment. Her treating you with disrespect, (regardless ofyour provocation, or your action or inaction at meeting her need), and the destroying the safe environment are going to make it very difficult for either of you to heal.>

Yes, I agree we need a safe invironment, however, there is a red flag about this. Isn’t it just another indication of my weakness? I know Dr. Harley has a problem with co-dependency as the world defines it. However, if I am so dependendent on her providing a safe environment, that I can’t function without it, then I am allowing her to control me with her moods. And that is EXACTLY what happens. She will even admit that she will act extreemely cold to me in order to get me to make a move to talk about it. I am seriously considering telling her that it won’t work any more, I will only respond to her sincere warmth, distress or other problem, but not her hostility toward me. But, I am wondering if it is wise to lay such a gauntlet down. AH!! I just realized what I said, I would just be giving her a different way to control me.

My previous counselor has told me that I need to get strong, and confident in myself, even if it means disapointing her. Oh how hard this is! I feel trapped in the chains of my wife’s moods!!


JM: I am not heaping all the blame on her, I am just pointing out that by the dynamic that you currently have, healing will be difficult.

And I'm sorry, but the change is not all about you. Yes, there are things you can do differently. But I'm seeing on both your parts, a lack of trust. She doesn't trust you to meet her need, you don't trust her to provide a safe place to even attempt to meet her need.>

JM: She doesn't seem to be willing to express to you exactly how to meet her need, only holding you to a apparently unknowable standard, then marking you as a failure when you don't meet it. You have seemingly ignore her please for affection and interest, and thus forced her to withdraw.

I do not say these things to condemn, and some of them may not even be close to accurate, but I say them to point out that you're going on 10 years now of struggle. Obviously, the things that both ofy ou are trying aren't working. Or it wouldn't be a struggle after 10 years.>

Yes, all the above is true...

JM: So you need to try something new. You need to break the vicious cycle that you appear to be locked in (This is a plural you, not a you you. ).>

Yes, but I must admit that I am getting burned out on trying another book, another method, another 5 steps to better marriage, etc. We are both gunshy of dissapointment, and are losing the will to try another formula.

This problem has caused me to re-examine my Christian life. I have no joy, I seem to be controlled by fear and guilt. I am totally performance driven, rather than knowing the freeing grace of God and letting that be my motivation. I feel like weeping at Jesus’ feet for a while (which I’ve done that quite a bit). I believe this kind of thinking has polluted my relationship with my wife. I have been trying to perform for her, based on duty, fear and guilt. I have considered myself unworthy or illegitimate if I fail to meet her needs. But really, this is based on a false premise that it is even possible to meet all her needs. At some point I need to be content with that, the reality of my own inadequacies. EVEN if she is screaming at me that she does not accept it. That is really the hardest part, since I have considered her opinion the gospel. That’s the chains around me that I need to break.

But maybe that is the “new” thing you are talking about. Do the best I can to get strong, seek and cling to God until my cup runneth over and there is no room for fear. Maybe then I can relax and find that deep in my heart I consistently want to know and love this woman. Or, if necessary I will have what it takes to stand up to her.

JM: Perhaps your W feels comfortable now in this "hostile truce" the two of you have negotiated. She may not be happy, but she knows where she stands. You're not happy, but you know where you stand. Impasse. >

Yes, actually, my wife has been asking for that. Boundaries on what my limits are. I have resisted doing this, because I can’t stand to lock myself into a position of being less than what she needs. In this case the "hostile truce" won’t be considerd binding unless I bring it up again specifically. The conversation would hard to fathom: "No, dear, I won’t be able to give you sex or quality communication (the two things she is desperate for) unless I feel safe, and by the way, I don’t see that happening any time soon". It just sounds too bleak.

JM: What happened in your previous MC sessions? Did you have a competent counselor? >

Actually, he was a divorcee. My wife lost respect for him after about 5 or 6 sessions. He was probably only semi-competent at best. She will not try another.

JM: I guess when all is said and done, is that w/o your wife's at least grudging cooperation, I am not quite sure how you heal this marriage. You're kind of just tossing stuff out there, hoping to hit the target. In the meantime, you're being held accountable for not hitting it. Even tho' you don't know where it is, or anything else abou tit. W/o your W willing to partner with you to help you learn how to meet her needs, I am skeptical of any method succeeding....Eventually, I learned to really listen.>

I think I can do that if I can just get past my irrational fears.

Thanks again for your help. If you have gained any other insight, please let me know.

FR

And slowly a light begins to dawn...

Let me share a little bit of my experience, and perhaps it will offer some insight.

The whole story is here.

which you're certainly welcome to read, but the part that I think most applies is the following:

I was in my hotel room, and I had been out of the house for a couple weeks. And I'm sitting there trying to work on one of the exercizes my MC had given me, which was to spend an hour and write everything I felt.

And I was very frustrated, because at the end of the hour, I had "I feel hungry". So what did that say? It said that really, how could I empathize with my wife in her issues? I couldn't even figure out what I felt, let alone figure out what she needed. Now that was a sobering thought, I'd been married for 8 years to this woman, didn't know squat about myself, let alone her.

So I think I can relate a bit to what you're going through. My wife would cry out to me (literally) for me to just love her and talk to her, and I didn' tknow what to do or say. It was outside my realm of experience. And I didn't do well in situations that I didn't have control of.

I felt this intense pressure, like I was supposed to say the right thing, or do the righ tthing, or think the right thing, and if I didn't, I was letting my W down, and a failure.

Fast forward. Life is different. It's better here. And I don't think it's out of reach for you either.

I'm goign to comment on what you wrote, then at the bottom, toss out a few tidbits to mull over.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Freemont24:
<strong>
She wants me to use communication to seek her out, to get into her world. To ask questions and explore her life, desires, needs dreams, etc. She wants me to want her. I find this incredibly difficult. I can offer up questions, but I always lose focus trying to desperately think up a follow-up question. I am too stressed to actively pursue her. Instead I am trying to keep my head above water in the conversation. She is very hurt by this and interprets my mechanical approach as incincere.
</strong>

I think there are a couple reasons for this, but I'll hit those at the bottom.

But the question I have for you is this two-fold:

1) You've been married 30 years. There must've been some reason that you originally married. What was communication like originally? Did the whole relationship just degenerate over time? Or was there some specific turning point? (Kids left home, empty nest, etc). How was you and your W's relationship while you were parenting? What were the priorities? Did you feel that you and her relationship was the priority with her? Did you make yours and her relationship a priority with you?

2) Why do you feel like you're near-drowning? Are you saying that you feel that if you don't ask the right question, or say the right thing, that she's going to be upset? So drowning is a euphamism for keeping the peace? Or are you saying that she'll be angry with you for not doing or saying the right thing?

3) Do you feel that your wife is being very rigid in her expectation? That you can only meet her need in 1 way?, and if you don't do it right, yo umight as well not have tried at all?


<strong>
JM: Have you considered asking her exactly what she wants you to say?>

Yes, absolutely. She gives me examples, but doesn’t want me to copy them by rote. She wants it from my heart.
</strong>

Sure, I understand this, but you have to start somewhere. You have to crawl before you walk. And people learn quickly by imitating, and by example.

<strong>
Yes, I agree we need a safe invironment, however, there is a red flag about this. Isn’t it just another indication of my weakness? I know Dr. Harley has a problem with co-dependency as the world defines it. However, if I am so dependendent on her providing a safe environment, that I can’t function without it, then I am allowing her to control me with her moods. And that is EXACTLY what happens. She will even admit that she will act extreemely cold to me in order to get me to make a move to talk about it. I am seriously considering telling her that it won’t work any more, I will only respond to her sincere warmth, distress or other problem, but not her hostility toward me. But, I am wondering if it is wise to lay such a gauntlet down. AH!! I just realized what I said, I would just be giving her a different way to control me.
</strong>

Marriage should *always* be a safe environment. It should not be a place that you have to wonder about whether or not it's OK to feel what you feel, or say what you say. You're a Christian, do you worry that somehow God is up there as a giant puppetmaster playing head games with you? No.

<strong>
My previous counselor has told me that I need to get strong, and confident in myself, even if it means disapointing her. Oh how hard this is! I feel trapped in the chains of my wife’s moods!!
</strong>

THat dawn is looking a bit brighter... THis is *good* stuff.


<strong>
JM: So you need to try something new. You need to break the vicious cycle that you appear to be locked in (This is a plural you, not a you you. ).>

Yes, but I must admit that I am getting burned out on trying another book, another method, another 5 steps to better marriage, etc. We are both gunshy of dissapointment, and are losing the will to try another formula.
</strong>

I can relate to that. And I hear you. And it's only natural to feel how you feel. It seems you have only a couple options tho'. Try what I'm going to suggest down below, or be miserable forever. I'd rather be miserable knowing I tried everything, than nothing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<strong>
This problem has caused me to re-examine my Christian life. I have no joy, I seem to be controlled by fear and guilt. I am totally performance driven, rather than knowing the freeing grace of God and letting that be my motivation. I feel like weeping at Jesus’ feet for a while (which I’ve done that quite a bit). I believe this kind of thinking has polluted my relationship with my wife. I have been trying to perform for her, based on duty, fear and guilt. I have considered myself unworthy or illegitimate if I fail to meet her needs. But really, this is based on a false premise that it is even possible to meet all her needs. At some point I need to be content with that, the reality of my own inadequacies. EVEN if she is screaming at me that she does not accept it. That is really the hardest part, since I have considered her opinion the gospel. That’s the chains around me that I need to break.
</strong>

I think your marriage is under a very strong spiritual attack. I don't know what your belief system is outside of you're saying you're a Christian. But I will put forth the theory that as much of this issue is a spiritual battle as it is a relational issue.

I say this for a couple reasons. One, you say tha tyou have no joy. We know that the walk with Christ is supposed to be joy. Not that every moment will be perfect, but one thing Christ does not bring is misery. YOu may go through trials, but you will not be tested beyond wha tyou can bear.

You also say that you feel guilt. There is a difference between guilt and conviction. GOd convicts. When there is something wrong, be it in your spiritual walk, or whatever, and God is working in you, he may bring conviction, as a catalyst to bringing change. On the other hand, the enemy brings guilt. Guilt that brings despair. Designed to drag us down. If that's how you're feeling, I can tell you this, you're under attack.

<strong>
But maybe that is the “new” thing you are talking about. Do the best I can to get strong, seek and cling to God until my cup runneth over and there is no room for fear.
</strong>

Actually, it's not, but I can see where you're heading. Remember that perfect love casts out fear. There can be no fear if you're filled with love. There's no room for it. And I don't mean romantic love.

<strong>
Maybe then I can relax and find that deep in my heart I consistently want to know and love this woman. Or, if necessary I will have what it takes to stand up to her.
</strong>

I wonder about this. You kind of hint around this a bit, and I'm wondering if your W is a very controlling woman, or very strong willed. Because you mention feeling intimidated,or in this case a need to "stand up", implying that she is walking all over you.


<strong>
I think I can do that if I can just get past my irrational fears.
</strong>

Be careful what you call irrational. How you feel is how you feel. It's not for me (or your W for that matter) to judge. So don't just discount a feeling because you think somebody else wouldn't approve, or think it's valid, it is, because you feel it. It's automatically valid.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">After reading and re-reading this, I have the following to comment:

I know that you said you were both feeling burned out on self-help and 5 steps, and all that stuff. But I submit tha tyou'r enot quite all the way burned out, because you're here. And I take that as a very promising sign.

As I read the descriptions of you and your W's interactions, I see lots of LB's. I see DJ's. I see AO's. I believe that until that stops, very little if any progress can be made. This is an example of a relationship that I believe is dying by the death of a thousand cuts. Individually, 1 of the DJ's or LB's by itself is not a huge cut. But they add up, until the relationship is just bleeding from everywhere, and it's not possible to bind the wounds fast enough.

I would encourage you to ask your wife to partner with you on this. If she doesn't, that's OK, it just makes it a bit harder. But you will have the greatest success ifyou both approach this with enthusiasm.

I submit that the number 1 project to fix your relationship isn't about learning to communicate, or meeting needs, it's plain and simple, it's just stopping the bleeding. It's stopping on *Both* your parts all the LB's.

WHen you try to do what your W asks, even if you don't do it perfectly, and she tells you you're patronizing her? That's a DJ. And that's a withdrawal on an already depleted love bank.

If you really are patronizing her, and not sincerely attempting to communicate, then you're guilty of it as well.

And it needs to stop. If you W yells at you? That's an AO. It has to stop. If you respond in kind? You're just as guilty, and you *both* just did more damage to your relationship.

You both are never going to be able to share intimacy if the two of you do not have trust that the other will not judge them, will not disrespect them, will not invalidate their feelings.

So when you talk about learning to communicate withyour W? And she's telling you that's what she needs? I don't deny that it is a need, but I think you're both putting the cart before the horse.

I will go out on a limb here, and feel free to disregard what I"m about to say, but I get the impression (as I stated above) that your W is a strong woman. I would encourage you to get a book from Patricia Evans, "The verbally abusive relationship, how to recognize and respond". I am not saying your W is abusive. But in those moments of anger or rage or whatever it is that is directed your way, you need tools to be able to defuse, and de-escelate the situation, and this book has *lots* of good stuff about how to do that. I would encourage *you* to just read it. DOn't even show it to your W, just look at it. It is life-changing stuff. It is easy to think that verbal abuse is all about yelling or screaming or whatever, but it's not. It's a biiiiig category, and the book covers a lot of ground. It's my bible. Besides the Bible. The principles in it are sound, and frankly, one of these days, I intend to go through it, and back all of her statements with Scripture, because I am convinced tha tit can be done. It will also give you tools to handle the manipulative behavior, like "the cold shoulder", and such that you describe.

I want to encourage you about something else as well. It is easy to look at a relationship, and see all these holes. And it seems like you don't have enough fingers to plug the leaks in the dyke. ANd you've used the fingers, and the toes, and all the bubble gum in you rpocket, and it's still leaking pain all over the place (to seriously mix some metaphors). SOunds bleak.

But it's not. Because I believe, actually, I know, because I have seen it at work. As the LB's stop, as the little incessant cuts that hurt and wound stop, a whole bunch of the othe rleaks just disappear. The dry up and go away. And Suddenly, problems that looked insurmountable become completely non-issues.

SO don't fall into the trap of there is "just so much to fix". Because I don't believe there is.

So my proposed recipe?

1) You and your W review BC. Yes, I know you're leery of it, but it's short, takes what, 15 minutes? And both of you make a pact (you said tha tyou both wanted to work on this right?), and even if only one of you does it (Heck, in my marriage, it was my wife that did the initial work, I ended up changing to try to catch up, because I wanted what she had, so it is not an absolute tha tit has to be done together). And you agree to *stop* all the LB's. Every single one of them. Even if you both have to bite your tongue until it bleeds.

2) Stop trying to "act" to meet your W's needs. Instead, have her describe to you how she feels, when a need isn't met. So instead of "You're not doing what I want" from your W, she would say, "I feel abandonded when I don't receive X". WHat does this do? It removes judgement. It's not about you, it's about how she feels about what happened. Feelings can't be argued with. Feelings are automatically valid. And the same works for you. If you feel intimdated by something, then say you feel intimidated when a certain thing happens. But whatever you both do, don't accuse. It's not about listing the othe rperson's problems, and giving them a laundry list of things they need to fix, it's letting them know what you need, and how you feel, and then working together to meet the need, and "fulfill" the lack of whatever it is that brings the feeling.

3) Stop putting so much pressure on yourself, and stop accepting so much pressure to heal. Yes, your relationship is important. But you know what? It took time to break, it will take time to heal. Take some time out from constantly worrying about the relationship to just practicing another of the BC, which is time spent together. Quality time, doing something together, w/o LB's, DJ's, AO's, etc. Time to rekindle and rediscover what it was tha tyou liked about each other in the beginning.

4) If you must talk about a relational issue, keep it short, keep it sweet, keep it light. Set a timer. 20 minutes tops. Stop when it goes off, mid-sentence if you have to. Don't get bogged down talking about an issue for hours. Keep the conversation focused on how each of you feels about what happened, not about what the othe rperson did. WHich leads nowhere good.

Your goal here is to stop what seems to be a never-ending cycle of probably what has become habitual behavior. Humans are creatures of habit. We settle in to our comfort zone, even if it is painful, because we crave comfort, sometimes even in the pain. We like it when we're in an environment we know. Even if it's not the best one.

As you are well aware, *breaking* a bad habit is much more work than creating the habit in the first place. The cycle of DJ's and AO's and other LB's is in part habitual behavior. It will take *conscious* effort to stop it. And I don't expect you to do it perfectly. Mistakes will be made. Mercy and grace will be required. It is the process that you need to focus on, not the goal.

YOu might be wondering why I'm not really saying much more about the Christian/Spiritual part of it. There's a couple reasons.

1) Marriage, while a covenant before God and man, does not require God to be successful. Lots of people have been married successfully for a loooong time, and don't know the Lord. You have the added bonus of being able to derive strength from talking to God, and prayer, but it is not an absolute requirement.

2) It is too easy to just sit back, and pray that God will work some divine miracle, and that shazam, everything will be all better. And in the meantime, until he intercedes, we're just going to keep on keeping on. I don't buy that theory. It's not that God couldn't zap your marriage and heal it, but I doubt he will directly, because you are where you are to teach you something. (All things work together..., and worst case, if your situation is the way it is because of sin, then I believe that God while he forgives us, he also makes us work through the consequence.

I'm not trying to be depressing. Because I know that God's desire is for every marriage to be a model marriage.

I will point you to Jer 29:11. The plans are there, to prosper you, and not to harm you, to give you hope and a future.

I will leave you with one last thought. One of the women in my W's Bible study was working through an issue of trying to decide what she should do about a certain something. And finally, she came to the realization, that she had to start moving and doing something, so God could steer.

And I feel the same applies to you and your W and your relationship. The 2 of you can sit there stuck in the dysfunction, despairing of hope, possibly convinced that your lot in life is just to be miserable.

Or you can both say, "OK, God, I don't see the entire plan. I see the goal, which is a healed marriage, but I don't see all the steps. SO I'm going to take this first step, which is... (outlined above), and I am asking you to honor the intent, and the purpose, and open the doors tha tneed to be opened, and close the ones that don't need to be open. And so, in faith, we're going to take the step of applying these principles to our marriage, to re-work the entire foundation of our relationship, and rebuild it on a foundation of mutual respect, of a desire that each of us is looking for the best in the other, and looking out for the best of the other.".

In fact, it doesn't take the both ofyou saying it, it takes just *one* of you to say it. My own marriage is an example of *one* person making the difference. (And it wasn't me tha tmade the diff, it was that tower of virtue that is my wife).

I will leave you that to masticate on, and I hope we can talk again soon.

I am up on AIM quite a bit, if you feel the need to talk off-line or whatever, feel free.

Jaye,

Again, thank you for taking the time to work on this. Please do not assume that my delay in responding is a lack of interest on my part. Your responses require serious consideration, and sometimes it takes a day or so to carve out the quality quiet time needed alone, just me and the computer. Again, thank you.

JM:So I think I can relate a bit to what you're going through. My wife would cry out to me (literally) for me to just love her and talk to her, and I didn' tknow what to do or say. It was outside my realm of experience. And I didn't do well in situations that I didn't have control of.

I felt this intense pressure, like I was supposed to say the right thing, or do the righ tthing, or think the right thing, and if I didn't, I was letting my W down, and a failure.

PB: Wow, that’s amazing, I couldn’t have explained my experience any better. How long did this last? Did you go through an on-off cycle with her? Where things would be good for a while and then go bad again? It’s wonderful that you happened to be the one to respond on this forum!

JM: Fast forward. Life is different. It's better here. And I don't think it's out of reach for you either.

PB: That gives me hope, thanks! :-)


JM: 1) You've been married 30 years. There must've been some reason that you originally married. What was communication like originally? Did the whole relationship just degenerate over time? Or was there some specific turning point? (Kids left home, empty nest, etc). How was you and your W's relationship while you were parenting? What were the priorities? Did you feel that you and her relationship was the priority with her? Did you make yours and her relationship a priority with you?

PB: Why did we get married? My wife was beautiful and she liked me. That kind of combination was hard to come by. In fact, she was the first one to come by who considered my worthy of being a partner. Also, my parents were the example in life. I wanted a life partner too. (all this sounds selfish, doesn’t it?) The communication from my side was never that great. My W just put up with it, concentrating on being the “submissive” wife. It’s just that after 20 years, she got tired of always getting into my world and me never getting into hers. It started coming to a head 10 years ago.

Why did she marry me? Because I was nice. She is right that this is a characteristic of me. The down side is that I would rather lose an argument than experience the conflict. Anything for peace. (Sometimes the personal cost is very high.) I never saw my parents argue or fight.

JM: 2) Why do you feel like you're near-drowning? Are you saying that you feel that if you don't ask the right question, or say the right thing, that she's going to be upset? So drowning is a euphamism for keeping the peace? Or are you saying that she'll be angry with you for not doing or saying the right thing?

PB: Yes, exactly. Just trying to keep up with the conversation, to say the right things, be the right man, again “keep the peace” etc. Because with failure comes bad things, her crying, screaming, my feeling like a jerk, CONFLICT, etc.


JM: 3) Do you feel that your wife is being very rigid in her expectation? That you can only meet her need in 1 way?

PB: Yes, There is somewhat of a rigidity in that, there is nothing left that can show her I love her, not gifts, doing the dishes, apologizing, etc. Only one last thing. It’s like our marriage has come down one thing left that is possible for me to do and if I fail at that, the marriage is essentially over.

JM: and if you don't do it right, yo umight as well not have tried at all?

PB: Well, she says that sometimes, but avoiding her, and keeping quiet is actually worse than trying.


JM: Have you considered asking her exactly what she wants you to say?>

PB: Yes, absolutely. She gives me examples, but doesn’t want me to copy them by rote. She wants it from my heart.


JM: Sure, I understand this, but you have to start somewhere. You have to crawl before you walk. And people learn quickly by imitating, and by example.

PB: I think that the problem is that we have been working on this for 10 years now. She asks (legitimately), when will I stop crawling? She complains that she will be dead by then.


JM: Marriage should *always* be a safe environment. It should not be a place that you have to wonder about whether or not it's OK to feel what you feel, or say what you say. You're a Christian, do you worry that somehow God is up there as a giant puppetmaster playing head games with you? No.

PB: The fact is, it’s not safe and I guess I just have to deal with it. If I fail in communication, or give up and my wife builds this frustration and anger, she will lash out to hurt me. She does not respond well to requests for safety. Again, she says it’s all about me, when she is crying for me to meet her needs. Her argument is this: When she makes things safe, I feel unthreatened and can pursue life without her, there is no more pressure to pursue her. I think she has a distorted view, but I admit there are times when I have done this.


PB: Yes, but I must admit that I am getting burned out on trying another book, another method, another 5 steps to better marriage, etc. We are both gunshy of dissapointment, and are losing the will to try another formula.


JM: I can relate to that. And I hear you. And it's only natural to feel how you feel. It seems you have only a couple options tho'. Try what I'm going to suggest down below, or be miserable forever. I'd rather be miserable knowing I tried everything, than nothing.

PB: Good point, in actuality there is still some energy to try something more.


JM: I think your marriage is under a very strong spiritual attack. I don't know what your belief system is outside of you're saying you're a Christian. But I will put forth the theory that as much of this issue is a spiritual battle as it is a relational issue.

I say this for a couple reasons. One, you say tha tyou have no joy. We know that the walk with Christ is supposed to be joy. Not that every moment will be perfect, but one thing Christ does not bring is misery. YOu may go through trials, but you will not be tested beyond wha tyou can bear.

You also say that you feel guilt. There is a difference between guilt and conviction. GOd convicts. When there is something wrong, be it in your spiritual walk, or whatever, and God is working in you, he may bring conviction, as a catalyst to bringing change. On the other hand, the enemy brings guilt. Guilt that brings despair. Designed to drag us down. If that's how you're feeling, I can tell you this, you're under attack.

PB: I think you are right. I sense that I could be used mightly for God if I could only get past this. In those brief times when my W and I finally connect, I almost feel invincible (in God’s power of course, not really “just” me)


JM: Actually, it's not, but I can see where you're heading. Remember that perfect love casts out fear. There can be no fear if you're filled with love. There's no room for it. And I don't mean romantic love.

PB: When I am in the midst of the fear, it feels like I am fighting to just stay alive, just trying to breathe evenly. God’s love (I assume you mean Agape) seems so distant and unreachable.


PB: Maybe then I can relax and find that deep in my heart I consistently want to know and love this woman. Or, if necessary I will have what it takes to stand up to her.


JM: I wonder about this. You kind of hint around this a bit, and I'm wondering if your W is a very controlling woman, or very strong willed. Because you mention feeling intimidated,or in this case a need to "stand up", implying that she is walking all over you.

PB: She is a VERY strong woman, this was not evident when we got married. She could win an argument or debate with any lawyer. This is another reason I feel intimidated. She used to love to debate her dad. I can’t seem to come up with converstional point that doesn’t get shot down right out of the gate. But again, she is like this when I have let her down over a period of time.


PB: I think I can do that if I can just get past my irrational fears.


JM: Be careful what you call irrational. How you feel is how you feel. It's not for me (or your W for that matter) to judge. So don't just discount a feeling because you think somebody else wouldn't approve, or think it's valid, it is, because you feel it. It's automatically valid.

PB: This is similar to what my counselor told me. My fears have a validity, they are built in as a protection device. I need to acknowledge that they are there, etc. It just seems that being so “under” the power of these fears, that I gain a lower opinion of mystelf. Lose self respect (why can’t perfect love cast out these fears?)


JM: After reading and re-reading this, I have the following to comment:

I know that you said you were both feeling burned out on self-help and 5 steps, and all that stuff. But I submit tha tyou'r enot quite all the way burned out, because you're here. And I take that as a very promising sign.

As I read the descriptions of you and your W's interactions, I see lots of LB's. I see DJ's. I see AO's. I believe that until that stops, very little if any progress can be made. This is an example of a relationship that I believe is dying by the death of a thousand cuts. Individually, 1 of the DJ's or LB's by itself is not a huge cut. But they add up, until the relationship is just bleeding from everywhere, and it's not possible to bind the wounds fast enough.

I would encourage you to ask your wife to partner with you on this. If she doesn't, that's OK, it just makes it a bit harder. But you will have the greatest success ifyou both approach this with enthusiasm.


I submit that the number 1 project to fix your relationship isn't about learning to communicate, or meeting needs, it's plain and simple, it's just stopping the bleeding. It's stopping on *Both* your parts all the LB's.

WHen you try to do what your W asks, even if you don't do it perfectly, and she tells you you're patronizing her? That's a DJ. And that's a withdrawal on an already depleted love bank.

If you really are patronizing her, and not sincerely attempting to communicate, then you're guilty of it as well.


PB: Is my attempt to communicate sincere? I don’t even know how to answer that. I am so wrapped up in the stress of the moment that I am really looking for some relief, hoping to say the right thing. So actually it probably IS patronizing.

JM: And it needs to stop. If you W yells at you? That's an AO. It has to stop. If you respond in kind? You're just as guilty, and you *both* just did more damage to your relationship.

You both are never going to be able to share intimacy if the two of you do not have trust that the other will not judge them, will not disrespect them, will not invalidate their feelings.

So when you talk about learning to communicate withyour W? And she's telling you that's what she needs? I don't deny that it is a need, but I think you're both putting the cart before the horse.

I will go out on a limb here, and feel free to disregard what I"m about to say, but I get the impression (as I stated above) that your W is a strong woman. I would encourage you to get a book from Patricia Evans, "The verbally abusive relationship, how to recognize and respond". I am not saying your W is abusive. But in those moments of anger or rage or whatever it is that is directed your way, you need tools to be able to defuse, and de-escelate the situation, and this book has *lots* of good stuff about how to do that. I would encourage *you* to just read it. DOn't even show it to your W, just look at it. It is life-changing stuff. It is easy to think that verbal abuse is all about yelling or screaming or whatever, but it's not. It's a biiiiig category, and the book covers a lot of ground. It's my bible. Besides the Bible. The principles in it are sound, and frankly, one of these days, I intend to go through it, and back all of her statements with Scripture, because I am convinced tha tit can be done. It will also give you tools to handle the manipulative behavior, like "the cold shoulder", and such that you describe.

PB: I’ll get the book. Thanks for recommending it.

JM: I want to encourage you about something else as well. It is easy to look at a relationship, and see all these holes. And it seems like you don't have enough fingers to plug the leaks in the dyke. ANd you've used the fingers, and the toes, and all the bubble gum in you rpocket, and it's still leaking pain all over the place (to seriously mix some metaphors). SOunds bleak.

But it's not. Because I believe, actually, I know, because I have seen it at work. As the LB's stop, as the little incessant cuts that hurt and wound stop, a whole bunch of the othe rleaks just disappear. The dry up and go away. And Suddenly, problems that looked insurmountable become completely non-issues.

SO don't fall into the trap of there is "just so much to fix". Because I don't believe there is.

So my proposed recipe?

1) You and your W review BC. Yes, I know you're leery of it, but it's short, takes what, 15 minutes? And both of you make a pact (you said tha tyou both wanted to work on this right?), and even if only one of you does it (Heck, in my marriage, it was my wife that did the initial work, I ended up changing to try to catch up, because I wanted what she had, so it is not an absolute tha tit has to be done together). And you agree to *stop* all the LB's. Every single one of them. Even if you both have to bite your tongue until it bleeds.

PB: I will approach her with the BC.

JM: 2) Stop trying to "act" to meet your W's needs. Instead, have her describe to you how she feels, when a need isn't met. So instead of "You're not doing what I want" from your W, she would say, "I feel abandonded when I don't receive X". WHat does this do? It removes judgement. It's not about you, it's about how she feels about what happened. Feelings can't be argued with. Feelings are automatically valid. And the same works for you. If you feel intimdated by something, then say you feel intimidated when a certain thing happens. But whatever you both do, don't accuse. It's not about listing the othe rperson's problems, and giving them a laundry list of things they need to fix, it's letting them know what you need, and how you feel, and then working together to meet the need, and "fulfill" the lack of whatever it is that brings the feeling.

PB: We’ve been down this road before. My counselor asked me to explore my wife’s feelings for the same reasons. My W could see right through this. It’s like she knew when the “counselor” was talking and when I was talking (“so, how do you describe your feeling?”, etc.). I can’t hardly ask her about what she is feeling without cringing inside, wondering if she thinks it’s the “counselor”.

JM: 3) Stop putting so much pressure on yourself, and stop accepting so much pressure to heal. Yes, your relationship is important. But you know what? It took time to break, it will take time to heal. Take some time out from constantly worrying about the relationship to just practicing another of the BC, which is time spent together. Quality time, doing something together, w/o LB's, DJ's, AO's, etc. Time to rekindle and rediscover what it was tha tyou liked about each other in the beginning.

PB: This sounds wonderful but seems so out of reach. Time spent together is filled with uncomfortable silence, or my lame attempts to communicate. She complains about time spent going to the movies, or playing video games (it is not really communication or interaction), or fearful silence in the car or in a restaurant. All I feel is pressure.

JM: 4) If you must talk about a relational issue, keep it short, keep it sweet, keep it light. Set a timer. 20 minutes tops. Stop when it goes off, mid-sentence if you have to. Don't get bogged down talking about an issue for hours. Keep the conversation focused on how each of you feels about what happened, not about what the othe rperson did. WHich leads nowhere good.

JM: Your goal here is to stop what seems to be a never-ending cycle of probably what has become habitual behavior. Humans are creatures of habit. We settle in to our comfort zone, even if it is painful, because we crave comfort, sometimes even in the pain. We like it when we're in an environment we know. Even if it's not the best one.

PB: I would love to keep it to 20 minutes. But that just leaves things unresolved, uncomfortable, right? She again, is left without her needs met. And, it is MY idea to keep it to 20 minutes, because she is such a b*tch that I can’t stand to be with her any longer than that (this would be her typical response). She will see this as me hanging on for dear life for the 20 minutes, dreading every second of it, waiting for the blessed relief when the alarm rings -and she would be right. There is no encouragement in that for her.

Thus, I have resolved to be the last one to fall asleep, to let the conversation run it’s enivatable course, when she sees no hope and colapses in tears on her side of the bed. Then we both feel miserable, but at last it’s over. And, I have the small satisfaction of knowing that I did not give up on her and leave the conversation first.

M: As you are well aware, *breaking* a bad habit is much more work than creating the habit in the first place. The cycle of DJ's and AO's and other LB's is in part habitual behavior. It will take *conscious* effort to stop it. And I don't expect you to do it perfectly. Mistakes will be made. Mercy and grace will be required. It is the process that you need to focus on, not the goal.

YOu might be wondering why I'm not really saying much more about the Christian/Spiritual part of it. There's a couple reasons.

1) Marriage, while a covenant before God and man, does not require God to be successful. Lots of people have been married successfully for a loooong time, and don't know the Lord. You have the added bonus of being able to derive strength from talking to God, and prayer, but it is not an absolute requirement.

2) It is too easy to just sit back, and pray that God will work some divine miracle, and that shazam, everything will be all better. And in the meantime, until he intercedes, we're just going to keep on keeping on. I don't buy that theory. It's not that God couldn't zap your marriage and heal it, but I doubt he will directly, because you are where you are to teach you something. (All things work together..., and worst case, if your situation is the way it is because of sin, then I believe that God while he forgives us, he also makes us work through the consequence.

PB: Yes, I have been praying to get zapped.

JM: I'm not trying to be depressing. Because I know that God's desire is for every marriage to be a model marriage.

I will point you to Jer 29:11. The plans are there, to prosper you, and not to harm you, to give you hope and a future.

I will leave you with one last thought. One of the women in my W's Bible study was working through an issue of trying to decide what she should do about a certain something. And finally, she came to the realization, that she had to start moving and doing something, so God could steer.

And I feel the same applies to you and your W and your relationship. The 2 of you can sit there stuck in the dysfunction, despairing of hope, possibly convinced that your lot in life is just to be miserable.

Or you can both say, "OK, God, I don't see the entire plan. I see the goal, which is a healed marriage, but I don't see all the steps. SO I'm going to take this first step, which is... (outlined above), and I am asking you to honor the intent, and the purpose, and open the doors tha tneed to be opened, and close the ones that don't need to be open. And so, in faith, we're going to take the step of applying these principles to our marriage, to re-work the entire foundation of our relationship, and rebuild it on a foundation of mutual respect, of a desire that each of us is looking for the best in the other, and looking out for the best of the other.".

In fact, it doesn't take the both ofyou saying it, it takes just *one* of you to say it. My own marriage is an example of *one* person making the difference. (And it wasn't me tha tmade the diff, it was that tower of virtue that is my wife).

I will leave you that to masticate on, and I hope we can talk again soon.

PB: I will give it a go.

By the way, I don’t know if I mentioned the cycle we tend to go through: Every 2 - 4 weeks we tend to break through out of our misery by some mysterious connection together. She may have a huge blow up and then there is a mutual relief that brings us together. But it always fades quickly, usually, just after 2 or 3 days. No matter how hard we try to cling to those good moments. I don’t know who starts the downward cycle, it might be my fears creeping in, fears about upcoming sex, etc., or her anticipating my fears and putting up walls first. She claims that when I think things are hunky-dory I then leave her to pursue my other passions.

JM: I am up on AIM quite a bit, if you feel the need to talk off-line or whatever, feel free.

I am not sure what AIM or EML stands for.

Also, I don’t know how to respond with your previous message in bold letters rather than doing the “JM:” thing.

Thanks again,
FR

(If you want to quota a post, hit the little "" symbol at teh top of the posting, next to the little paper/pencil icon. It will be pretty obvious what to do from there. Of you can click the "Quote" button in the "Instant UBB code" box below the text box, and enter it there. Anyway).
You can always try some of the "instant UBB code" selections, then type in the box, then do "preview post", and it will show you what it will look like, and you can tweak and adjust and get a feel for it w/o actually posting.

I am not offended or surprised, people have lives and stuff outside of hanging out on MB. In my case, I happen to be currently a SAHD (Stay at home dad), so I have more time than most. Believe me, no rush, no pressure. I'll be here as much as I can.

AIM is AOL Instant Messenger, a real-time chat client.

EML is email, if you substute @ for "at" in my address, you'll have my email address. Helps cut down the spam.

Anyway, back to your stuff:

I am trying to draw a mental picture of a conversation between you and your wife. It's almost like there's this big "cloud" hanging over your relationship, and in this cloud lives things like "judgement", and "expectation". And they're looking down on both of you, and some how making you both feel things that seem real, but don't really exist.

What do I mean by that...

I hear you judge yourself pretty harshly. You seem to be almost relationally paralyzed with fear over saying or doing the wrong thing. I'm guessing that part of it is because you fear for your W's reaction to a mistake. But who's to say what's a mistake? Marriages are *full* of mistakes. We are not perfect people. Outside events impact and influence us. But a marriage should be the *safest* place to make a mistake. Not the one where any error is feared the most.

So it makes me think that perhaps there's some unrealistic expectations overshadoing any interaction. There is an unrealistic expectation of perfection in thought, word, and deed. And worse, there's an unrealistic expectation of the *other* party to be perfect in thought, word, and deed.

So if something like this is a foundation on which your relationship is built, is pretty much a recipe for disaster. Nobody can be perfect all the time. Nobody will say the right things *every* single time. Nobody's actions will be the perfect thing *every* single time.

It's not that perfection isn't a good thing to strive for, it is. But don't let the lack of attainment become a burden.

I suspect that over the course of your marriage, and your lack of meeting your partners needs, (and her meeting yours perhaps. It's sometimes tough, because only half the story is available), that these drains on her love bank have finally emptied it. And so there are walls put up to protect herself. But she's not in complete withdrawal, she really wants to be in the relationship with you. However, I think perhaps it's "mutated". These needs have been unmet for so long, that now the *only* way is her way. Again, this is just speculation.

SO the cycle starts. She misses you, the walls are up, finally, she and you reach out, connect, things are OK, but the fundamental problems are still there, and before you know it, the wall has to be put back up.

However, there's also something else to consider. Her treament of you, the "cold shoulder", the yelling, the manipulation, are just as much drains on your LB as well. They're withdrawals. And I'm guessing your LB is close to empty. Hence the fear. The love bank provides protection. It's kind of a layer of protection that helps us when hurts come. OF course, from our spouse, they should be few and far between. Most interactions should be *deposits* in the love bank.

But when a relationship is struggling, the lovebanks dry up, and the relationship degenerates in any one of a number of ways. Sometimes both parties just go into withdrawal. Sometimes both parties just agree to bicker an dfight and be miserable. Lots of mechanisms for coping. The human mind is very capable at coming up with ways to cope.

You yourself have devised the coping mechanism of being the last one to fall asleep. That's your way of mitigating the problem (in your own mind). I'm not sure what peace there is to really derive from it, but again, it's coping, it's not a solution.

I think you and your W and your marriage need a do-over. Since there hasn't really been mention of Divorce, or separation, I'm assuming that you both really want to work things out.

As such, then I think the recipe I proposed is still a good way to start.

I would extend it a bit, I would have the two of you sit down, and make a pact. And the pact is, "the past is the past". Now I dont' expect you to just "forget" everything, and I don't expect your W to either. But for 10 years you've been struggling, and making little, if no progress. The old patterns, the old styles, the old thought processes, they *all* have to go. In the trash. You both have to clear your mind of the bad juju, the bad karma, the bad vibes.

And you need to make a pact that you each will believe that the other is *truly* looking out for their best interest.

So how to apply it? The pact has to be applied equally and to everything. So when you ask questions about her day that seem "rote"? She agrees that the old thoughts, that it's not really you, aren't true. That you *really* are trying. And that its a starting over, with the express purpose of *stopping* the habitual patterns of communication, and replacing them with new patterns.

It will be tough. There are tendencies to slip back into the old thought patterns. *especially* in times of stress. We are creatures of habit, we like to fall back to what we know, even if it isn't good for us.

The two of you *agree* to spend 15 hours of time together each week. Not talking about your relationships, not talking about your inter-personal probelms. Not sitting in front of the tube either. But getting out, doing something. Back rubs, read each other the paper, take a drive, go on a walk, work out together, color in a coloring book, do a puzzle, play cards, learn chess, whatever. Spend time reading the bible to each other. Find some online sermons and listen to them together. But *do* things together. W/o rancor. Might have to bite the tongue the first few times. But it is *important* to just spend quality time together, having some fun. This time is *deposits* in the love bank. It will give you a cushion against future pain. It may be awkward the first few times. Maybe even the first few weeks. Do it anyway.

If you find yourself having to discuss a relational topic, then keep it limited to I feels, I am wantings. "I feel unimportant when I am interrupted when I am speaking I am wanting to be able to complete my thoughts when I speak them."
The word "you" should never cross your lips, in any way critical.

You *both* work to completely stop all the LB's. LB's drain th elove bank faster than anything except infidelity. Eliminating LB's includes all the subtle manipulations as well. The long sighs, the cold shoulders, the eye-rolling, you name it. Keep to the thumper principle.


The Patricia Evans book is *excellent* at pointing out manipulative behaviors, and how to respond. You certainly should read it. Your W may ask you waht's happening, as you apply the principles in it, and so then you may want to share it with her. But I don't think I would share it right out of the trenches, it will probably be met with suspicion, and that's not what you're wanting.

Lastly, I would encourage you to diligently seek out God's will for your marriage. Each person is born with a God-sized hole. We try to fill it with other stuff. We idolize things, like career, or money or other stuff, in order to fill the hole, and it just falls through. Even idolizing a spouse will result in failure.

Remember, that above all else, you *can't* change your W. You can't make her do anything at all. But what you can do is fix yourself. You can give yourself the strength to stop being a Conflict Avoider. Sto pleaving in fear of confrontation. (Not that you're going to go out and stir up trouble, but you will have tools to meet it, and respond appropriately). And as your fix yourself, I believe you will find that your W will want some o' 'dat.

Actually, I would like for us to start over from the top, as I have stewed on this muchly the last few days.

It is a given that it takes two healthy people to make a marriage work. Marriage is not easy. And 2 dsyfunctions coming together makes for a dysfunctional marriage.

So the goal has to be for both partners to get healthy. But you can't force your W to change. That's a fundamental premise. All you can do is change yourself. And then be confident that your mate will want to join you in the "new" relationship.

WIth that in mind, I think there's some stuff tha tyou need to ponder. First off, I believe you are essentially paralyzed in fear of your wife. Fear is never a good thing. You are trying so hard to be what your W wants you to be, that you can't be yourself.

So when you feel that "deer-in-the-headlights" feeling? It's only natural, because you're outside of you, attempting to be something you're not.

But you know what? You are *not* responsible for your wife's feelings. Think on that for a moment. You are *not responsible* for her actions to the things that you do. Now of course, the goal is to always do the right thing, to live a Godly life, etc. But you can do the right thing, your W can respond poorly, and it's *still* the right thing.

I would even suggest that you idolize your W. You place so much importance on what your W thinks, and how she acts, that it practically *displaces* you. It certainly displaces God in the relationship, and we all know what God thinks about other gods before Him.

It is not surprising that you feel ambivalent towards your W, because who wants to run to a god that's using them as a punching bag?

So all the stuff we talked about on previous days is fine, but I think we need to start a little closer to home. You need something that you can do/start *right* now, that can bring change.

And here it is:

You need to make sure that you have stopped *all* LB activity. I have a posting I could refer you to called respond not react, but essentially, no matter what your W does, you *always* respond with forethought, not react impulsively. Your impulses are not serving you. It's important to stop because you are obligated to treat your wife with respect, and LB's are disrespect, hence they must stop.

Secondly, you have to stop enabling your W's behavior. Get the Evans book right away. Read it. Take the tools in there, and start using them. Gently let your W know that you are not going to tolerate the abusive/manipulative behavior. It's not about my-way or the highway, it's about doing what's right.

Communicate with your W using the I feel model, while at the same time avoiding LB's. The word "you" in a critical sense should never cross your lips.

So if your W throws another cup at you, "Throwing stuff at me is no longer acceptable". Then remove yourself, be it another room, take a drive, or whatever. And don't clean it up. Her poor reaction, her consequence. You're not responsible for it.

Do not get the mis-impression that this is somehow carte-blanche to impose your will. You're not looking to dominate, you're looking for parity. For mutual respect for each other *no matter where the other is at*. You're looking for abusive behaviors to cease. You're looking for manipulative behaviors to cease. And if you're being abusive/manipulative (and passive-agressive is manipulation), then quit it.

Lastly, the issue is as much spiritual as physical. You need to spend some serious time in the Word. Displacing the notion that your W is somehow in control of you, and replacing that hole with God. Once you do that, you will find that as you regain perspective on the problem, and displace the "wrongthink", that the path will be more clear. The fog of confusion will lift. You may not understand every single thing that will happen, but you will be confident that you're on the right path, and that a just and loving God will reveal the next step to you at the proper time. In addition, you will gain peace. Blessed peace.

Be aware that this "change" in you may provoke a *strong* reaction in your wife. It may be entirely possible that the situation will get worse, before it gets better. But be strong. Be confident in knowing that you're doing the right thing. Both by God, and by yourself.

I know you're tired of books, but I want to suggest one more. This book my wife credits with giving her the courage to stand up to me, when I was at my worst. It's called "The Courage to be yourself". The lady that wrote it has some odd spiritual views, but if you ignore those, the rest of the material is pretty good. I just finished it a few weeks ago (and wrote a review on it that I posted earlier.), and I could see it applying. It's not self-help so much as self-diagnosis.

Some of this stuff applies to your W as well, (actually most of it), but I wouldn't lay it on her until she asks about it. Because it's not about pointing fingers at her for what she did, it's still just fixing yourself.

You and your W have this almost co-dependency thing going, where you each seem to derive your identiity from the others brokenness. Your W apparently needs you a lot. Too much, an unhealthy too much. That need is better served being replaced by the pursuit of God, so that she is a whole person on her own, and you're a whol eperson on your own, and then the two of you come together and build something truly astounding.

She would be just as wrong to idolize you (placing her need for you above her need for God), as you would be to her in reverse.

People have an easy time understanding idolatry as it relates to "graven images", or sometimes money or careers, or *kids*. (Which begs the question, is some of this issue mainly come up after your kids left home? As in empty nest syndrome?). It gets easy to give power to lots of things that aren't good for us. And the end result is *always* pain and suffering. Because it violates God's command.

I would encourage you to immerse yourself in the Word. Many answers come from the study of the Bible. Sometimes in the oddest ways. Beth Moore has some good studies (the Believing God one is very good, my W just finished it, and I shared in a lot of it with her. Very good stuff. Really helps you reprogram your thinking).

And you should always reassure your W, that you love her, that you want the relationship healed, but you also have to do what's right. And you wont' tolerate that which is wrong.

In my case, when my W started employing the evans book principles, it knocked me back. There was some fear and trepidation. And then I wanted to know more about what was going on, and so I read the book, and then eyes were opened, and things snowballed, and the relationship is healed, and a zillion times better than it ever was.

SO this is a good example of 1 person making changes in themselves, and the end result is change in another, and the whole relationship improved.

Hello Jaye,

Again, thanks for the wonderful response. I am taking some time to digest this as I have before. Will post again soon.

Again, thanks.

FR

WOW, is all I can say about this. I do read a lot on this forum but never reply. I have to say... this really hit home. I am always nagging my DH to "talk to me" and I mean talk about us, not about work or things only in his life aside from us. He always seems uninterested in me, not interested in what I'm doing, not interested sexually (I always have to initiate, he never hugs or kisses me, and when I ask for hugs and kisses he tells me he doesn't like being told to do things and will do it when he wants to, which in turn is never) and I feel most of the time like I am trying so hard to keep our relationship together and he could care less.
Reading what you wrote hit me like a ton of bricks, he has told me before that I can be very intimidating, and a lot of the times he doesn't know what to say or how to say it. (He also tells me that when he says things he feels like he says them wrong so he'd rather not say anything, he'd rather not talk) I know it is totally uncomfortable for him to talk to me about "us" but as soon as he leaves the house he calls me on the cell phone and talks about "his work and co workers." (I would like to know from you... what do you think your wife could say or do to make you feel comfortable enough to "open up" to her or feel comfortable talking to her about your needs? You need to realize one thing, it's just as hard being on the other side of the fence, wondering what is wrong with me? What have I done that makes him hate me so much, am I ugly, fat, what's wrong with me... why can't he talk to me, why can't he make me feel like a woman?
I don't think of myself as an intimidating person, but I have been told this before by people other than my DH.
Sometimes being told that you're intimidating makes you step back and wonder..."why am I intimidating to this person" I often wonder about this... I don't see this about myself." I know when I have opinions about things, I am very passionate about my opinions. That may be intimidating to some, I don't mean to be.

I wish I could help you in some way...as I was reading your post, I couldn't help but wonder... is this a way I could "get into my DH's head"... and figure out what he's feeling and thinking about me?

I feel for you and for your wife.
I will reread your post and answer more in depth later.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hunymnrs:
<strong>
I don't think of myself as an intimidating person, but I have been told this before by people other than my DH.
[stuff deleted] I know when I have opinions about things, I am very passionate about my opinions. That may be intimidating to some, I don't mean to be.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think anybody minds the passion, I suspect it's more fear of the lack of acceptance of their opinion if they don't agree.

If they say something contrary to what you view, and you come at them to change their mind, or see it your way, or whatever, then it definitely discourages any kind of sharing or intimacy.

There are lots of great character qualities about people, that when taken to an extreme, become liabilities.

Passionate can turn to disrespecting in a heartbeat.

Things like always having an answer, instead of empathy. Always being the first to reply. interrupting, (not saying you do these things, just things to think about), all devalue the others, and can make you appear much more intimidating than you're wanting to appear.

Jaye, you’ve made some great suggestions. Some of which I already practice, some of which need help. I'll list them with my responses:

Understanding that my I am not responsible for my wife’s feelings. That is a tough one. We’ve talked about this together, and she totally disagrees. I understand it in my head, but I don’t have a confidence in my heart, and so guilt begins to fester. It’s like I can see this stuff happening, as if watching from the bleachers but I can’t stop the result.

Idolize my wife. So true. The Lord has spoken to me clearly on this, that I am to fear Him only. Again, I understand this in my head, but I need the connection in my heart. She walks into the room, and there is an immediate reaction in me of fear. It’s natural, I cannot stop it. She needs something from me, a connection, an intimacy that is difficult, so the pressure is on. But, what is the alternate? Just ignore her when I feel pressure? I bathe my life in prayer and the pursuit of God, yet this trips me up everytime.

LB activity. I struggle with IB and D. IB is my way of coping with the fear, to run from it. Not physically, but my mind escapes, and I find it hard to concentrate on the hear and now. D is also a way of coping, to try to act like someone she needs, not expressing my weaknesses, not admitting to a lack of passion. Those are like dropping bombs on the relationship if I go there (is it possible to be overly honest in this situation?). However, these behaviors are less than before so I am seeing progress.

I am considering getting the Evans book, but am not comfortable about people close to me knowing that I’m reading it. I have no place where I can put the book, or read it incognito.

Not allowing her unacceptable behavior. Yes, I’m tracking with that. Last night, after about a week and a half of relative harmony things fell apart. There was no anger or throwing things, just a lot of misery. We both ended up on our relative sides of the bed in tears.

Immerse myself in the Word. You have hit on a sore point here. I have studied the Bible so much all my life, that I became the answer man for people around me. When my marriage was going down hill, I was studying hours a day, and reading commentaries every night. Now I read when I can, and all my time in the car is spent listening to Bible teaching. I’ve found that unless there is a connection in my heart, it all counts for nothing. The practical application of what I already know is what I need.

As far as displacing the “hole” with God, I start every morning in quiet meditation and prayer. I literally turn my heart toward God and sit at his feet, drinking in all I can. I literally don’t know what else I can do here.

Spend more time with my wife. Please understand, I am nervous around my wife, I constantly feel the weight of her needs. She senses my nervousness and can’t stand it. She doesn’t want to be around me. She doesn’t want to go on dates with me (she turned me down the other night and turned it into a family night). She doesn’t want to play games with me. There is a cloud hanging over us and no LB deposits happening when we are together. What she really wants is for us to work on our relationship together, but I am out of answers, nothing more to suggest.

My wife was complaining last night, yet again, that I am not meeting her emotional needs and asked me what I am going to do about it. I said I am doing all I can, and that I am working on the relationship, but “you just don’t see it”. She responds “so, what you are saying is that this is it? There’s no hope for anything better?” I didn’t know what to say. I mentioned that I was on a marriage forum seeking answers. Her reaction was sarcastic “So that’s typical, you are working on OUR relationship with someone else.”

Again, it comes down to her need for me to desire her, to want to seek her out. Since this does not come natural, she asks if I really WANT to get to know her better. She claims that all I want is for her to be happy so I can pursue the other goals of my life. Again, I have no answer to this, because I fear that she may be right. If so, all I have for her is bad news: “Yes, honey, I can’t give you an intimate connection, I just want you happy so you don’t pressure me so I can freely pursue my other goals and passions”. Is that all I have for her? I have been a Christian for 35 years, seeking the Lord the best I know how (most of the time) and I still can’t be relaxed with my wife, loving her and meetng her needs? This causes me to seriously wonder if I have been deceiving myself and am not really saved.

Sorry about the negative vibes from this message. It was not my intent just to shoot down your suggestions. I am just SO frustrated. I’ve been in tears all morning about this. In 2 hours I am scheduled to lead worship at my church and bring them to joyful celebration. That is what is so ironic. Maybe it is all about a spiritual attack to “take me out” so I am not effective in ministry. If so, I will do my best not to let it happen.

You are right about the co-dependency thing. Maybe the way out is to give my wife the bad news (that I can’t meet her needs). And try to find some content with that. But it just doesn’t feel right.


FR

I am with you man. For years, I acted the Chrisian life, thinking that if I "did" the right things, that it would make that leap from my head to my heart.

I beleive the Bible in my head, I believed I was saved, but fundamentally, the stuff in the Bible seemed far more "good stuff that happened to other people". I prayed, but didn't seem to see answers in my life, although I seemed to be surrounded by people who were seeing God work in theirs.

I couldn't "personalize" it.

Eventually, I had to reach the pit. I had to look at my relationship with GOd, and realized that while I believe there was a God, I didn't actually believe that really, truly, really, down in the depths of my soul, that God really desired the relationship for me.

That he was sitting there with his hand out saying, "Don't make it complicated. Lay these problems on me, and let me carry them for you.".

And there was fear there, because I am self-dependent. I like to solve my own problems. I like to be in crontrol of my destiny. I like to have a clear path from A to Z, and know all the stops in between.

I realized that I was bound up by fear. And fear comes from the Enemy. YOu describe your reaction to your W as fear... A natural reaction. I submit that it is not. That in this specific area, either the Enemy has been allowed to sink his claws in, and influence you, or it's an area that has not been turned over to God, and had the light of his Grace shined in there.

Fear never comes from God. Conviction? Yes. Condemnation? no. Guilt? no. Conviction is a tool used by God to fuel change. It is *never* to bring bondage.

Fear can influence your walk in many ways. But as you know, perfect love casts out fear. So we know that fear is not what God desires for us.

www.tlsm.org in the free listening section has some very good sections on Fear, and how to stand on God's promises in the Bible how to overcome it.

Listening to Pastor Thurman over the last year or so has dramatically opened my eyes, and helped me re-understand Scripture in a way that makes it personal, and not just information.

In Mark 4, the father of the boy says something along the lines of "I believe, but help me not to doubt".

Seems like that might apply to you a bit.

If you would like to take this discussion to email, I'm all ears. my eml address is in the signature.