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Jimbo:<P>I'd read everything you can on this site, and buy a couple of the books: Give and Take, and Lovebusters.<P>When your wife goes back and cites examples of your bad behavior, you need to immediately apologize. What's more, you should "categorize" them into which area of lovebusters they fall into (selfish demands, disrespectful judgements, dishonesty, angry outbursts), and you should be working extremely hard to eliminate these behaviors. Your temper and "control" issues center around angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements (probably). Eliminate these behaviors---it's critical for you, regardless of the current state of your marriage.<P>You might want to find your own marriage counselor to help you with coming up with a plan to first eliminate lovebusters, and then identifying and meeting your wife's emotional needs. I would suggest that you let your wife know that you would like to work on these behaviors for her benefit: give her the "lovebusters" questionnaire <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4120_lovebustq.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4120_lovebustq.html</A> and ask her if she would fill it out for you. Don't force her; if she refuses, just say OK, or try perhaps reciting the categories to her and see if she can identify any as particularly bad). Then let her know that you're going to work with a marriage counselor who will help you eliminate these behaviors (I highly recommend Steve Harley at MarriageBuilders---he does counseling by phone). Before you can start making your wife fall in love with you again by meeting her needs, you have to learn to protect her by eliminating lovebusters. You need to learn to be pleasant and upbeat around her---make the time that she spends with you "good".<P>And my final words, based on the type and suddenness of your wife's behaviors would lead me to suspect that she is having an affair. That doesn't mean that you should blow up at her or start snooping (lovebusters). But the sleeping in another room and "space", and lack of affection (verbal and physical) all indicate "affair". They also could be some sort of plan that her current counselor is putting her through, so there are plenty of alternate explanations.<P>Regardless of an affair or not, your primary focus should be on eliminating those lovebusters from your behavior. That includes "not" discussing things with her that make her angry. And my guess is that when you try to "help" her with it, you come across as disrespectful (BTDT). Learn to listen to your wife and rephrase what she has said to her (without "fixing")---that's a technique for learning empathy. Good luck!

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Jimbo:<P>That's good news. You'll see progress more quickly if this centers around how she feels about you, and nothing else.<P>Eliminate lovebusters... <P>A couple sections on this website that may help are in the Concepts: read about the three states of a marriage, and also read about the Four Rules for Successful Marriages. And then finally, there are lots of good articles in the Q & A section of the website.<P>After you "learn" all this good stuff, resist the urge to "teach" your wife by setting her straight with your newfound knowledge. That would clearly come across as a disrespectful judgement.<P>Again, I wish you luck.

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jimbo,<P>You describe the situation that I found myself in with my wife, almost perfectly (with the exception that I figured this out when I discovered her affair).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I guess some of my problem is that I try to sit and talk with her and get her to reason things out, but I am met with a lot of resistance on her part because as you have said, it can seem to her like I am trying to force my opinion on her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're beginning to figure this out. Your wife doesn't want to be "reasoned" with, at least in the way you've been doing it before. Remember: your WIFE'S perceptions of your behavior are the thing that counts. If you want to be a "good" husband, you need to protect her from your "poor" behaviors. It doesn't matter how well-intentioned these behaviors are---if your wife doesn't like them, you will serve the best interests of your marriage by getting rid of them. Try to ask yourself before you do anything: "How will my wife feel if..." If you're not sure that what you're about to do or say will bring about a good response from your wife, then DON'T. If it's something important that needs to be acted on (complete honesty is good), then you need to figure a way out to present the information that will give you a "better" response. At this point in your relationship, your wife is unsure of her love for you. It's better that you focus on protecting her feelings than hammering out every "honest" feeling you're having in excruciating detail. She'll handle complete honesty better from you when she's back in love with you.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My wife has noticed these changes and while she says she can see a difference, she also says it scares her that I can make changes so quickly. I'm not acting here and I am really sincere about changing and adopting a different attitude toward life and our marriage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is great---I'm predicting that you will be very successful in rebuilding your marriage if you continue your efforts. Your wife is scared because she worries that the changes are temporary---she'll fall back in love with you, and then you'll go back to your old self. You can do a couple things to guard against that.<P>1. Establish a consistant track record with your new behaviors. This will typically take a few months before your wife will trust these changes. Try your hardest not to slip back into the old "lovebusting" patterns---that does a lot of damage in this point of the process.<P>2. If you do slip, apologize immediately. Don't defend your actions. Let your wife know that you realize that you've hurt her, and you will do your best to put an end to this behavior. You can even "preempt" this somewhat by asking your wife for both positive and negative feedback with these new behaviors that you're learning---if she's bothered by something you do or say, she should let you know immediately. And you should listen, apologize, and not defend (lose the "But..." phrase from your vocabulary).<P>You should be very upfront with your wife: you want to let her know that you're working hard to learn these new behaviors to make the marriage better for her (and for you too). Listen to her concerns, and just let her know that you'll work very hard at being consistant, and let her be the judge of the progress (because she WILL be the judge...).<P>Jimbo, my wife was very much in love with her OM when I discovered how she had felt about our marriage. I worked hard at changing behaviors that I thought I had little control over (wrong). Steve Harley coached me through this, and we are well on our way to recovering our marriage---through some enormously difficult situations. You're not too late (far from it), but be PATIENT. Treasure the little signs that you're on the right path (it looks like you are), and stick with the plan.

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Jimbo:<P>You're headed in the right direction. I encourage you to get those books available here, and if you feel that you need a "coach" to help you with the behavioral changes you want to make, you should definitely try the phone counseling with Steve Harley.<P>Good Luck.

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Jimbo;<P>You may have lost her already---but you can still get her back. I think, by the description of last night's episode, that you did pretty well. <P>These changes that you are making in your behaviors WILL benefit you---both short term and longer. They will benefit your marriage, should your wife stick with you. They will benefit you in a new relationship, should your wife divorce you. Going through this "behavioral-based" program is a win-win situation for you, regardless of the outcome of your marriage.<P>Years of anger, bitterness, and frustration poured out at you last night. Your wife was full of "lovebusters"---but that's to be expected (she could use this marriage program too, but you need to lead by example, not demand it of her). This is common. You should be encouraged, in one sense. Your wife is more in the state of conflict than withdrawal; and while conflict can be very unpleasant, it's closer to where you want to be (the state of intimacy). You need to have broad shoulders---listen to your wife while not responding in anger. Make the corrective actions to your behavior.<P>In the end, you can only change you directly. That doesn't mean that you can't change your wife or your marriage (you can have a huge impact); but you need to focus on your behaviors as opposed to directing your wife on how to act. I would just be consistant with these new behaviors that you're instituting. Let your wife know that you love her and are dedicated to your marriage. It may be "too late" for her, but don't let that deter you. The fact that she's still there indicates that it's not too late. The fact that she's noticed these changes is very positive (regardless of the resentment). You wife will need to learn to let go of that resentment and anger (it only serves to make her miserable); you can help by consistant application of new, loving behaviors in the marriage.<P>I would make sure that the counselor you go to be either a behavioralist, "Solution-Orientated Brief Therapist", or a "future-based" therapist. You want to outline for the counselor your desire to make the marriage a better place for your wife (and yourself), and insist that you come up with a concrete plan to work on these behaviors. You do NOT want to deal with a psychoanalytical therapist (Freudian, Jungian)---you'll spend too much time mucking around in the past. You aren't as interested in "how" or "why" you've gotten in this situation; you want to know what you need to do to get out. Also, steer clear of therapists that preach "codependency" theory: your desire to work on your marriage for your wife's benefit is "clearly codependent", and a therapist of that vein will encourage you NOT to use that as a motivation.<P>Consistancy and patience are the keywords. It takes time.

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Jimbo:<P>Your wife is in conflict. And frustrated. And when she focuses on that side of the relationship, she lets loose with the anger and resentment. This doesn't mean that she hates you (even though she may use those words). For the negative emotions that she's telling you; listen to the message rather than the words.<P>The good times are genuine too. That she's enjoying your company. That she's appreciating you. You will make lots of "baby steps" forward right now. Your backward steps will likely be "big". But if you're consistant, the backwards steps will diminish in size and quantity, and the positive steps will increase.<P>Jimbo, after I discovered my wife's affair, I worked very hard on changing my behaviors (just like you're trying to do). My wife resented this change (it makes a decision to leave harder), and she didn't trust it. A couple months after the discovery of the affair, I told her that these changes were real, that I had always loved her deeply, and that I would show her this for now on.<P>She screamed at me "Why in hell did you wait so long to let me know???".<P>I'd like to tell you that this was the turning point. But while we were making our marriage better in tangible ways, she was continuing to have the affair. A hard lesson I immediately learned was that my wife thought I was extremely controlling: to combat this, I would not give her the "selfish demand" to "end this affair or else...". She knew that I didn't approve of the affair (I told her that), but that she would have to make her own decision on that.<P>What we went through was tough. After 6 months of this "Plan A" approach, I separated from her and my two young children. I could never have imagined doing that. Now I was afraid that I was facing divorce and a life without my kids. But I had to do this before I lost what love I had left for her---it would have done no good to learn and apply these new behaviors for 6 months, just to ruin them by my growing frustration with the situation. <P>I "reconciled" with my wife over pretty extreme circumstances a couple months later: she had become pregnant with the OM's child. She was having an emotional breakdown, and I moved back to help her out while she decided "what to do". And I told her that I would raise this child as my own, if she wanted to work on the marriage. In a couple more months, she ended the affair. A few months after that, she was through the majority of "withdrawal" from the affair. Our son is 5 months old---and our marriage is doing much better than it ever has been now.<P>But the point of this story is that for a long time, I never really had a clue as to how my changes were affecting my wife. Sometimes it looked positive, but most of the time it looked hopeless. But now, in talking about it, she says that the changes that I've made are nothing short of miraculous. That they gave her hope even when things were bad. That she could never imagine not having me in her life.<P>But I really didn't know, until she had healed enough to tell me.<P>You need to make those changes. They will benefit you. They will benefit your wife. And with time, she will heal. And she'll tell you the same things. And that, my friend, will be something to cherish.

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Jimbo:<P>When your wife tells you that she doesn't know if the marriage can be saved, she's telling you the truth. She just doesn't know. That's different than telling you that she doesn't want the marriage anymore (although I'd still use the same approach, for a while).<P>I know that all these things hurt tremendously. Take that pain and use it for productive, measurable positive changes.

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Jimbo,<P>You're on the right path. If your wife is willing to keep a log, that would be great---Harley explains that technique in one of his books (I think Give and Take). You don't want to be defensive---you just need feedback as to whether your changes have been effective or not.<P>Keep up the effort.

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Bless you. You are going through alot. Let me share with you what my counselor asked my h and I to do: we had to write down all the things that our had done that hurt us. I had 2 pages, he had only a few items (not that I wasn't that bad only that he couldn't write down definite specifics so he generalized). After we had done that we had to turn around and read it back to each other. Our next step was to ask the spouse for forgiveness (this is one step further than apologizing and is not as easy as it sounds). Then!!!! we had to turn around and ask God for forgiveness for us to hold these grudges for so long. It is our responsibility to forgive people. To not forgive someone hurts ourselves more than it does the person we should forgive. Your wife has found that out. It festers and makes yourself miserable.<P>I want to reinforce what the others say...don't press. Read Love Must Be Tough.<P>If she refuses to do the lovebusters questionaire, why not ask her to take it to her take it to her counselor. See what he says.<P>Another book: His Needs, Her Needs. Wish I had read it at the beginning of our marriage.<P>Hang in there. Good Luck and God Bless You.

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Jimbo:<P>I agree with your approach right now. Your major focus should be on the elimination of lovebusters---this is the best place for you to make the biggest impact with your wife. You need to provide her safety, comfort, and warmth in the marriage---by eliminating the anger, disrespect, and demands.<P>In your current situation, I would think that a tough love approach would fail. Why? Because it's my belief that your wife doesn't have a ton of love left for you, and that because she has a "control" issue with you, this tough love would be viewed as the ultimate act of control. With a dedicated focus on the elimination of lovebusters, you will start to patch up her love bank, and she WILL take notice and see that your efforts are for real, and that they're for her benefit (she's already starting to notice, IMO).<P>Your best bet is to let her bring up the relationship issues on her own terms. Be prepared with the knowledge that you're learning, but also be wary of "taking control" of the situation. I know that you want (need) direct feedback on how you're doing with these changes, but it's best to put your needs on a back burner for a while. My guess is that in 6-12 months you will be able to "introduce" Harley's concepts of "Complete Honesty" and the Policy of Joint Agreement to your wife and she'll be willing to work with them; but first, you must do the groundwork of eliminating lovebusters (and then trying to meet emotional needs).

Holly Ann,<P>I've enjoyed seeing the advice you give here: I think that the tough-love approach is a good one (albeit the last one); and you've been able to cleary explain the strategy behind how to do that.<P>The issue with Plan A has more to do with the circumstances surrounding the affair and the strength of the "faithful" spouse. In my case, "lovebusters" was a major contributor to my wife feeling unloved in our marriage. The day after I discovered the affair (and discussed it with my wife), I found this sight. It was just "D'oh" after "D'oh" as I read about the concepts. I started counseling with Steve at the end of the week.<P>Plan A is tough. I have a wonderfully strong "sense-of-self" (e.g. big ego). I didn't take the affair as a personal attack by my wife, but as a statement of unhappiness. I had the "categories" to work on---in fact, I always knew that I drove my wife nuts by some of my behaviors, but I thought I was "powerless" to do anything. Wrong!!! I just needed motivation and a good coach, and I got double doses of both. Plan A can be very effective in affairs that seem "impossible", like the so-called exit affair. It takes time, patience, will-power to control the reactions to the hurt and pain... but in the end, it's can help boost self-esteem of the faithful partner by knowing that they're fighting for the marriage.<P>But there's a definite time limit on this. In my case, it was just short of 6 months. And then, plan B goes into effect (tough love). But I truly believe that the Plan A effort is the one that saved my marriage, although throughout the time I was in it I had a horrible time telling if any of it was having an effect. My advice to others doing it is to "not worry"; it DOES have an effect. You just won't realize it until later.<P>Thanks for the compliment. My mother said it best to me: "It's not amazing... it's what I would expect you to do..."<P>Have high expectations, don't worry about failure. For me, at least, it works pretty well... <P>And the payoff? Last night, our house was pretty much in disarray. I asked my wife if I could do anything to help, and she mentioned the living room (she was going in to read with the kids). So I cleaned it up, and then went to get her out of their bed (she had fallen asleep). Well, this morning I had a voice mail from her after she got up...<P>"I walked into the living room and was amazed! Thank you so much...you're a doll, I love you so... I don't know where you found time to do it"<P>Now that's quite an improvement from 18 months ago!!! (I just hope she doens't look under the couch... )

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Jimbo:<P>I'm going to attempt to play Steve Harley here (apologies to Steve...):<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When you say to 'bring up relationship issues on her own terms', do you mean to let her be the one who brings them up? I can try that, but in her current state of anger and frustration, it may be a long time before she approaches ME for anything.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's what I meant---she should approach you. What are your options here? She gets angry, frustrated, and defensive every time you try to discuss the relationship with her. OK---she's either just fed up with the way the situation has been, or is upset by the way you discuss it with her (probably some of both).<P>What's the most effective thing for you to do?<P>You need to learn the skills on how to discuss this with you. And when to discuss it. If you're lacking in the skills, you need time to learn and practice them. And I would suggest that it'd be safer practicing these skills in less sensitive areas of the marriage right now. You need to win back her trust and love, and you're going to have to show patience and gentleness. You're not going to be able to jump right in and fix this in a weekend.<P>Remember to always ask yourself:<P>"How will my wife feel if I ...[insert action here]"<P>You're getting it. Wanting to get up last night and asking why she was so late would have upset your wife. So you didn't do it. You need to develop the habit of asking yourself that magical little question before you do anything that will affect your wife. If you don't think the reaction will be positive, you shouldn't do it. If it's something you feel you MUST do, then you should rethink the way you were going to proceed, and come up with a more palatable solution. But at this stage in your relationship, I would squelch your "need" for honesty and communication about the state of your relationship (for example). Realize that this is a short-term sacrifice for your marriage: that it won't be this way forever.<P>Don't concern yourself too much with your wife thinking about moving. Thinking and doing are two completely different issues. And even if she does decide to separate, I'd side with Holly Ann and suggest that you be pleasant and help her, and reassure her that you love her and will be willing to work things out when she's ready.

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Jimbo,<P>You're handling yourself well. There's not a whole lot of different things for you to do. I would suggest that the only area that you may want to "disagree" with your wife on is in the area of divorce. If she wants it, let her do the work---but tell her that you don't believe in divorce and refuse to sign (that'll force a "no-fault" divorce, which will buy you some time). <P>Keep up with the improved behaviors. That will be the most important thing you can do at this point.

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Forgive me, but are you sure that she isn't seeing another man?

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