.<p>[This message has been edited by jimbo30 (edited July 09, 1999).]

Jimbo:<P>I'd read everything you can on this site, and buy a couple of the books: Give and Take, and Lovebusters.<P>When your wife goes back and cites examples of your bad behavior, you need to immediately apologize. What's more, you should "categorize" them into which area of lovebusters they fall into (selfish demands, disrespectful judgements, dishonesty, angry outbursts), and you should be working extremely hard to eliminate these behaviors. Your temper and "control" issues center around angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements (probably). Eliminate these behaviors---it's critical for you, regardless of the current state of your marriage.<P>You might want to find your own marriage counselor to help you with coming up with a plan to first eliminate lovebusters, and then identifying and meeting your wife's emotional needs. I would suggest that you let your wife know that you would like to work on these behaviors for her benefit: give her the "lovebusters" questionnaire <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4120_lovebustq.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4120_lovebustq.html</A> and ask her if she would fill it out for you. Don't force her; if she refuses, just say OK, or try perhaps reciting the categories to her and see if she can identify any as particularly bad). Then let her know that you're going to work with a marriage counselor who will help you eliminate these behaviors (I highly recommend Steve Harley at MarriageBuilders---he does counseling by phone). Before you can start making your wife fall in love with you again by meeting her needs, you have to learn to protect her by eliminating lovebusters. You need to learn to be pleasant and upbeat around her---make the time that she spends with you "good".<P>And my final words, based on the type and suddenness of your wife's behaviors would lead me to suspect that she is having an affair. That doesn't mean that you should blow up at her or start snooping (lovebusters). But the sleeping in another room and "space", and lack of affection (verbal and physical) all indicate "affair". They also could be some sort of plan that her current counselor is putting her through, so there are plenty of alternate explanations.<P>Regardless of an affair or not, your primary focus should be on eliminating those lovebusters from your behavior. That includes "not" discussing things with her that make her angry. And my guess is that when you try to "help" her with it, you come across as disrespectful (BTDT). Learn to listen to your wife and rephrase what she has said to her (without "fixing")---that's a technique for learning empathy. Good luck!

.<p>[This message has been edited by jimbo30 (edited July 09, 1999).]

Jimbo:<P>That's good news. You'll see progress more quickly if this centers around how she feels about you, and nothing else.<P>Eliminate lovebusters... <P>A couple sections on this website that may help are in the Concepts: read about the three states of a marriage, and also read about the Four Rules for Successful Marriages. And then finally, there are lots of good articles in the Q & A section of the website.<P>After you "learn" all this good stuff, resist the urge to "teach" your wife by setting her straight with your newfound knowledge. That would clearly come across as a disrespectful judgement.<P>Again, I wish you luck.

.<p>[This message has been edited by jimbo30 (edited July 09, 1999).]

jimbo,<P>You describe the situation that I found myself in with my wife, almost perfectly (with the exception that I figured this out when I discovered her affair).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I guess some of my problem is that I try to sit and talk with her and get her to reason things out, but I am met with a lot of resistance on her part because as you have said, it can seem to her like I am trying to force my opinion on her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're beginning to figure this out. Your wife doesn't want to be "reasoned" with, at least in the way you've been doing it before. Remember: your WIFE'S perceptions of your behavior are the thing that counts. If you want to be a "good" husband, you need to protect her from your "poor" behaviors. It doesn't matter how well-intentioned these behaviors are---if your wife doesn't like them, you will serve the best interests of your marriage by getting rid of them. Try to ask yourself before you do anything: "How will my wife feel if..." If you're not sure that what you're about to do or say will bring about a good response from your wife, then DON'T. If it's something important that needs to be acted on (complete honesty is good), then you need to figure a way out to present the information that will give you a "better" response. At this point in your relationship, your wife is unsure of her love for you. It's better that you focus on protecting her feelings than hammering out every "honest" feeling you're having in excruciating detail. She'll handle complete honesty better from you when she's back in love with you.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My wife has noticed these changes and while she says she can see a difference, she also says it scares her that I can make changes so quickly. I'm not acting here and I am really sincere about changing and adopting a different attitude toward life and our marriage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is great---I'm predicting that you will be very successful in rebuilding your marriage if you continue your efforts. Your wife is scared because she worries that the changes are temporary---she'll fall back in love with you, and then you'll go back to your old self. You can do a couple things to guard against that.<P>1. Establish a consistant track record with your new behaviors. This will typically take a few months before your wife will trust these changes. Try your hardest not to slip back into the old "lovebusting" patterns---that does a lot of damage in this point of the process.<P>2. If you do slip, apologize immediately. Don't defend your actions. Let your wife know that you realize that you've hurt her, and you will do your best to put an end to this behavior. You can even "preempt" this somewhat by asking your wife for both positive and negative feedback with these new behaviors that you're learning---if she's bothered by something you do or say, she should let you know immediately. And you should listen, apologize, and not defend (lose the "But..." phrase from your vocabulary).<P>You should be very upfront with your wife: you want to let her know that you're working hard to learn these new behaviors to make the marriage better for her (and for you too). Listen to her concerns, and just let her know that you'll work very hard at being consistant, and let her be the judge of the progress (because she WILL be the judge...).<P>Jimbo, my wife was very much in love with her OM when I discovered how she had felt about our marriage. I worked hard at changing behaviors that I thought I had little control over (wrong). Steve Harley coached me through this, and we are well on our way to recovering our marriage---through some enormously difficult situations. You're not too late (far from it), but be PATIENT. Treasure the little signs that you're on the right path (it looks like you are), and stick with the plan.

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.<p>[This message has been edited by jimbo30 (edited July 09, 1999).]

Jimbo:<P>You're headed in the right direction. I encourage you to get those books available here, and if you feel that you need a "coach" to help you with the behavioral changes you want to make, you should definitely try the phone counseling with Steve Harley.<P>Good Luck.

\<p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]

.<p>[This message has been edited by jimbo30 (edited July 09, 1999).]

.<p>[This message has been edited by jimbo30 (edited July 09, 1999).]

Jimbo;<P>You may have lost her already---but you can still get her back. I think, by the description of last night's episode, that you did pretty well. <P>These changes that you are making in your behaviors WILL benefit you---both short term and longer. They will benefit your marriage, should your wife stick with you. They will benefit you in a new relationship, should your wife divorce you. Going through this "behavioral-based" program is a win-win situation for you, regardless of the outcome of your marriage.<P>Years of anger, bitterness, and frustration poured out at you last night. Your wife was full of "lovebusters"---but that's to be expected (she could use this marriage program too, but you need to lead by example, not demand it of her). This is common. You should be encouraged, in one sense. Your wife is more in the state of conflict than withdrawal; and while conflict can be very unpleasant, it's closer to where you want to be (the state of intimacy). You need to have broad shoulders---listen to your wife while not responding in anger. Make the corrective actions to your behavior.<P>In the end, you can only change you directly. That doesn't mean that you can't change your wife or your marriage (you can have a huge impact); but you need to focus on your behaviors as opposed to directing your wife on how to act. I would just be consistant with these new behaviors that you're instituting. Let your wife know that you love her and are dedicated to your marriage. It may be "too late" for her, but don't let that deter you. The fact that she's still there indicates that it's not too late. The fact that she's noticed these changes is very positive (regardless of the resentment). You wife will need to learn to let go of that resentment and anger (it only serves to make her miserable); you can help by consistant application of new, loving behaviors in the marriage.<P>I would make sure that the counselor you go to be either a behavioralist, "Solution-Orientated Brief Therapist", or a "future-based" therapist. You want to outline for the counselor your desire to make the marriage a better place for your wife (and yourself), and insist that you come up with a concrete plan to work on these behaviors. You do NOT want to deal with a psychoanalytical therapist (Freudian, Jungian)---you'll spend too much time mucking around in the past. You aren't as interested in "how" or "why" you've gotten in this situation; you want to know what you need to do to get out. Also, steer clear of therapists that preach "codependency" theory: your desire to work on your marriage for your wife's benefit is "clearly codependent", and a therapist of that vein will encourage you NOT to use that as a motivation.<P>Consistancy and patience are the keywords. It takes time.

.<p>[This message has been edited by jimbo30 (edited July 09, 1999).]

Jimbo:<P>Your wife is in conflict. And frustrated. And when she focuses on that side of the relationship, she lets loose with the anger and resentment. This doesn't mean that she hates you (even though she may use those words). For the negative emotions that she's telling you; listen to the message rather than the words.<P>The good times are genuine too. That she's enjoying your company. That she's appreciating you. You will make lots of "baby steps" forward right now. Your backward steps will likely be "big". But if you're consistant, the backwards steps will diminish in size and quantity, and the positive steps will increase.<P>Jimbo, after I discovered my wife's affair, I worked very hard on changing my behaviors (just like you're trying to do). My wife resented this change (it makes a decision to leave harder), and she didn't trust it. A couple months after the discovery of the affair, I told her that these changes were real, that I had always loved her deeply, and that I would show her this for now on.<P>She screamed at me "Why in hell did you wait so long to let me know???".<P>I'd like to tell you that this was the turning point. But while we were making our marriage better in tangible ways, she was continuing to have the affair. A hard lesson I immediately learned was that my wife thought I was extremely controlling: to combat this, I would not give her the "selfish demand" to "end this affair or else...". She knew that I didn't approve of the affair (I told her that), but that she would have to make her own decision on that.<P>What we went through was tough. After 6 months of this "Plan A" approach, I separated from her and my two young children. I could never have imagined doing that. Now I was afraid that I was facing divorce and a life without my kids. But I had to do this before I lost what love I had left for her---it would have done no good to learn and apply these new behaviors for 6 months, just to ruin them by my growing frustration with the situation. <P>I "reconciled" with my wife over pretty extreme circumstances a couple months later: she had become pregnant with the OM's child. She was having an emotional breakdown, and I moved back to help her out while she decided "what to do". And I told her that I would raise this child as my own, if she wanted to work on the marriage. In a couple more months, she ended the affair. A few months after that, she was through the majority of "withdrawal" from the affair. Our son is 5 months old---and our marriage is doing much better than it ever has been now.<P>But the point of this story is that for a long time, I never really had a clue as to how my changes were affecting my wife. Sometimes it looked positive, but most of the time it looked hopeless. But now, in talking about it, she says that the changes that I've made are nothing short of miraculous. That they gave her hope even when things were bad. That she could never imagine not having me in her life.<P>But I really didn't know, until she had healed enough to tell me.<P>You need to make those changes. They will benefit you. They will benefit your wife. And with time, she will heal. And she'll tell you the same things. And that, my friend, will be something to cherish.

.<p>[This message has been edited by jimbo30 (edited July 09, 1999).]

Jimbo:<P>When your wife tells you that she doesn't know if the marriage can be saved, she's telling you the truth. She just doesn't know. That's different than telling you that she doesn't want the marriage anymore (although I'd still use the same approach, for a while).<P>I know that all these things hurt tremendously. Take that pain and use it for productive, measurable positive changes.

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.<p>[This message has been edited by jimbo30 (edited July 09, 1999).]

Jimbo,<P>You're on the right path. If your wife is willing to keep a log, that would be great---Harley explains that technique in one of his books (I think Give and Take). You don't want to be defensive---you just need feedback as to whether your changes have been effective or not.<P>Keep up the effort.