I have read some of Dr. Harley's books with interest as well as lots of the information on this website. The concepts make sense to me. My husband and I are currently separated and in the midst of divorce proceedings (his choice, not mine). While we were still living together, he would not even discuss the possibility of trying to work through our problems, he just wanted out of the marriage. After I moved out about four months ago, he started talking about the possibility of reconciling. I am deeply committed to marriage, and would like to see this happen.<P>However, while he says that he wants me back and will do whatever it takes, he never actually does anything. And he will not be honest with me, although he says he wants to. He has a longstanding problem with gambling, and I feel that this addiction has led him on to others. I know that he has been involved with another woman (to what extent I don't know), and that he has been viewing pornography on the Internet and calling all kinds of 900 numbers. <P>I had hoped that his saying he wanted to get back together was an indication that he had stopped these demeaning behaviors. But evidence indicates that this is not the case. The topper of all this is that he lies about everything, and even when directly confronted, tells half-truths and tries to explain everything away. I have tried to reach him in every way that I can think of, and explain to him how important honesty is to any type of future relationship. I consider his lying as just another compulsion or addiction, as he never used to be like this.<P>I think that one addictive behavior is leading him into the next, and don't know where it will all end.<P>Throughout this whole situation, he had adamantly refused to see a doctor or get any kind of professional help. For the first time he has recently said that he might be willing to go to marriage counseling (not very enthusiastically). I am trying to decide whether to pursue marriage counseling, or to insist that he get help with these addictions first. I don't know how to approach the situation. I have tried to be honest and open with him, and to give him every chance, in spite of all the hurt he has caused me. Nothing I say seems to be getting through to him. He just makes these promises, then does nothing about them.<P>Any helpful suggestions would be deeply appreciated.

Katy:<P>My suggestion for you would be to call Steve Harley at MarriageBuilders (888-639-1639) and discuss this with him through a phone-counseling session.<P>If you like the concepts that MarriageBuilders embodies, you'll probably find Steve an excellent counselor (I have). Steve and Dr. Harley are well-versed in handling addictive issues as well. And finally, if your husband is tentative about counseling, he might find phone counseling an easier pill to swallow. I did a year of phone counseling with Steve, and I found it a much better experience than some office counseling with other psychologist/psychiatrists. In addition, I found Steve's counseling much more effective in terms of the gain in productive behaviors.<P>Give it a try.

Hi Katy,<P>Even Willard Harley Jr. says that before he will counsel with a couple for marriage counsel that the addiction(s) must be addressed and the addicted person must be in recovery. See his articles on this website and his books.<P>Consider calling all of the local therapists and finding out if they specialize in addictions and marital counseling. With addictions you are better working with a therapist who is local as it is easy to discount a telephone counselor no matter what their credentials (let's face it, when it comes to addictions, addicts usually discount any therapy until they hit bottom).<P>Also check out the following web site for more information about counterdependency which is what leads to addictive behavior of all kinds: <A HREF="http://www.weinholds.org" TARGET=_blank>http://www.weinholds.org</A> <P>Plus <A HREF="http://www.sexaddict.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.sexaddict.com/</A> <P>Good luck!!!<P>Hugznprayers,<BR>Thoughtful (Deb)

I think I understand. My husband, I believe, is addicted to lying. I knew he had a problem before we got married, but did it anyway. His lying usually stems from money issues. He has had problems with alcohol in the past also. I think he may be drinking more again. He is currently staying with a friend. We are scheduled for counseling with Steve on Monday. He says he is willing to do it and knows it is a committment for several months to a year, but he doesn't act like he will be responsive. He is completely shut down right now and only talks about things that must be resolved. He won't come back home, even though I am the one who asked him to go and have now asked him to come back. I think your other reply is somewhat right. There may not be a resolution to the marriage problems if one person does not think they have an addictive habit. I don't think I can continue to be married to my husband if we can't resolve the lying and money problems

Katy,<P>Thank you for posting this topic...I feel like I am reading my story except that my husband did go through treatment for both alcohol and gambling. <P>As mentioned on a previous reply, it is important to address the addictions before trying to save the marriage. But once the addiction issue is addressed, I hope the two of you will be able to immediately and enthusiastically incorporate the teachings and wisdom found on this site. Unfortunately for us, I didn't find this resource until recently and it is too late.<P>After treatment we were trying to work our way back from the problems through his 12 step work and a joint support group through the treatment center. It wasn't enough. <P>2 yrs after alcohol treatment, 16 months after intensive gambling treatment, and after 2 years of abstinence from gambling and drinking, we separated because of his return to active lying and disregard for our relationship/my needs. <P>The 6 months previous to the separation he had, in my opinion, stopped working a recovery program. He went to meetings and did his readings, but he was just showing up. What started out as one lie became his way of life again. The messages/teachings he took away from his 12 step programs made him very selfish and self centered. He didn't have to say he was sorry for anything ....amends would have to wait until he was good and ready. He didn't feel he needed to think of anyone but himself. He was into 'stinkin thinkin' and, when he acknowledged he was on a slippery slop, he didn't do the work to change it. Most of the time he said it was a slippery slop for others but not for him because his recovery was better than others. <P>What caused us to separate? He took a new job and began going to bars with people from work to 'listen to the music' and 'have fun'. We discussed the situation both privately and during our group session. I have never respected bar fly behavior (value from my childhood that I still believe is valid) and during most of our marriage he was o.k. with that. When it surfaced last summer I told him how threatened I was and requested that he honor his promises made during treatment. (I was very insecure about our marriage and his commitment - he repeatedly professed his love for me and his commitment to us and our family. This demand/request seemed reasonable) He said that he would, although he didn't agree with it because he felt he could prove to me that going to bars wouldn't lead him to drink.<P>Knowing that he enjoyed the atmosphere and felt going out was a good way to build work relationships, I offered to accompany him to after work gatherings, leaving after the meal... when the singles - or married without spouses along - would begin the night of (my view) risky fun. The opportunity never arose. <P>However, while I was away on a business trip he went out and did not get home at the time he told our children (teens and 20s) he would be home. When questioned I learned that after dinner part of the group went to a well known pick up bar - not the place you find happily married 45 year old men - and the evening's fun included dancing with the females he works with. <P>Having already gone through drinking and gambling (which included embezzling a significant amount of money that I covered from my inheritance - money I had put aside for the kids college), I feared - I knew - that it was only a matter of time before he would be drinking again or having an affair.<P>We have been apart for 16 months, he has had an affair, he is drinking and gambling, is destroying himself - and thus us - financially. <P>Crazily, I haven't been willing to let go of the dream of getting back together. Instead, I have held on and held on. I have destroyed other parts of my life - including a great job - because I wasn't willing to give up on the marriage and all that we had invested. <P>Each time I thought I could finally turn away, he would start talking about getting back together. We would spend time together; movies, dinner, drives, chatting, being intimate, even moving back in for a couple days. I would let myself believe it would work out. Then poof...I wasn't important anymore and he would revert to being inconsiderate and dishonest.<P>There is a Q&A section on infidelity...I have found it very helpful to replace sexual affair with his addictions. As long as those things are more important to him than our relationship is, we have no hope.<P>But you may. My husband likes what he reads in the Marriage Builder materials...he just has gone down too far to come back. Most of it is pride - he can't have made, or still be making, mistakes. He doesn't want to feel anyone is controlling him. He can see how valuable the teachings are -- except when applied to him. <P>Encourage your husband to get into treatment - begin incorporating the MB teachings into your life right away...I wish I had 2 years ago. Even if the marriage does not survive, you will be a better person for it. <P>Best of luck..I look forward to hearing how you are doing.<p>[This message has been edited by tuddynumber4 (edited November 07, 1999).]