Dazed...I saw your post earilier, insightful as ever.<P>Last week I worked so much I wasn't able to respond with very thoughtful posts and tomorrow I'm leaving on a vacation of sorts.<P>Just wanted to let you know I have been thinking about you and I hope your situation is improving.

Hi, FHL. I was surprised to see a post actually directed at me. I thought my only role here was just to make trouble. <P>Things are OK for the moment, but I'll know more at the end of today. I didn't let H hook me into his job anxieties over the weekend, and that seemed to keep him a bit more calm. It seems that talking about it just escalates the anxiety. Yesterday we went out in the AM to a fair; that seemed to help both of us. I was feeling antsy, that we ought to do SOMETHING fun, and a bit depressed about the job insecurity and my seeming inability to get anything done. My fiction writing is suffering, I'm behind on my reviews, my house is a mess, and the living room still needs painting. I have to keep reminding myself that a full time job and a high-maintenance H is what's keeping me busy.<P>H looked at want ads yesterday, and says he wants to answer some, but hasn't done so as yet. He really doesn't want to look for another job, and I suspect that deep down he realizes that his boss is just a crazy, abusive nut, and that he's not going to get fired.<P>Last night he stayed up till 10 with me, which was nice. Of course, that was only because he'd had a 3-hour nap and there was something on VH1 he wanted to watch. But it means we could turn in at the same time without me having to try to be sleepy at 9 PM.<P>This AM he was in a pretty decent mood; didn't seem too anxious at all.<P>So who knows?<P>Thanks for caring; I'll let you know how it goes. One good thing--he's talking again about "when" we go on vacation in December, not "if."

Glad to hear it. <P>Actually I have my own job insecurities about my H today.<P>He started a new job this morning after being with the same company since we graduated from college 18 years ago.<P>He was recruited and he will be using the Master's Degree and certification we worked so hard to get. He spent a couple years working and going to school full time (pulled a 4 point at presigious university) then he lived four hours away almost a year as he was sent to do a project for his thesis. Then he had to pass two grueling tests over three years to be certified which many do not pass even after years of trying. I picked up the slack and managed the house and family pretty much on my own for about five years, making H's goals my own and enabling them. Still, as it goes in big companies, even after sending him to school, they did not have him fully using his new degree. The other company offered him a dream job and a nice raise. Old company countered with money and a a different position, but upon weighing the opportunities, H took new job. I think this is a good thing.<P>As he drove off in his brand new car (we did need another vehical, and this is the first tangible evidence that all our efforts paid off) I still feel uneasy. <P>It is not like I think he is going to go have another affair, but any big thing changes the dynamics of a marriage. Will he find his new job so exhilerating that he changes his priorities? He has always put our family, at least in theory, first. Or will the initial learning curve be so overwhelming he gets discouraged or disillusioned? He was so used to coasting in his old job, does he have enough get up and go? I think he made it through school and the tests more on apptitude than fortitude, but I guess looking back he must have had both to do what we did.<P>Or will this be positive...instead of being stuck and having a mid life crisis, will a new lease on life, so to speak, be just the ticket to make him feel young and alive? <P>I really didn't mean to lure you into this and of course you don't have a crystal ball, but I do respect your opinion. <P>Things have been going so well, I don't want anything to rock the boat, on the other hand I want his life to be fulfilling in both his personal and professional life. <P>Any suggestions?<BR>

Dazed<BR>When have you ever been a trouble maker???<BR>You sound like you are doing a great job keeping things together. Just don't forget about yourself.<P>FHL<BR>Can you try to percieve this as a great opportunity? Stress your interest. Become involved in the idea of the new job.<BR>Look at it as getting out of a rut and a brand new start. Make it a positive. Something that belongs to the two of you.<BR>I can see my H sinking into a rut at work (when he bothers to go). something new and exciting can be a good thing for both of you.<P>

Well of course you are right. I was thrilled when H got this offer and I have been fully supportive.<P>However, if I learned anything is that nothing that changes happens by itself. I want to accentuate the positive, but protect or at least be aware of the negative.<P>Except for the affair, I love my life...just want it tweaked....not overhauled.<P>Maybe the troublesome sign was that my H wanted a red car...you know the kind the one that screams "I'm forty"....we compromised on black. Then again, maybe he just likes red.

FHL<BR>Being aware is the most important part!!!<BR>If I had been aware of my H'smidlife crisis last summer I probably wouldn't be here right now.<BR>More later. Company AGAIN and I'm still in my PJ's.

FHL, this is the same boat I was in when H got this job. After being just another grunt, he was now a manager (although not of people, just of technology), and he now was making more than I am. Add the OW connection to it, and it was a difficult stew.<P>We managed to get through that, mostly because I went into therapy, but with him back in "I'm going to get fired" mode, it's hard to keep that changed dynamic going.<P>I suspect that you guys will have the same thing, where new jobs and changed priorities have an effect. When I met my H, he had ZERO ambition. Now he's this peculiar amalgam of great ambition combined with low self-esteem. <P>You've got to roll with the punches. One piece of advice I will give you, though, is don't let your H think you don't support him in this. Men will tend to see these things in black and white, and ANY reservations may be perceived as "aren't you happy for me? This is for both of us." You've grown comfortable with the dynamic as it exists, and now it may change. Try to adapt to it, if you can.<P>One reason I haven't been able to put OW behind me is the work connection. At some point, if he has another job that doesn't involve her at all, I'll feel a lot better. The problem now is that with a couple of job changes on bad terms over a 12-month period, she's the best reference he has. <P>Try to take it one day at a time, and try not to look at the days with the same old paradigms. People change, and he may surprise you.

Dazed,<P>If I acted any more supportive I would have to put on a cheerleader uniform and nobody wants that.<P>But seriously, as supportive as I was through the grueling decision making process which really was like a soap opera, when he finally accepted the new offer after some negotiation, something interesting happened. He got off the phone and I really think I hugged him, etc...but I asked a question about the answer to a minor point he was negotiating. Can't even remember what it was, but my mind was just putting everything in order and processing in a business like mindset. He percieved it as not being happy enough...and I was happy and thought I had shown it. His parents happened to be visiting, so he had me join him in the garage and basically calmly told me he was disappointed with my reaction.<P>I set him straight and he was pleased, but I actually saw it as a breakthrough. First my unemotional self sufficient H actually had a feeling and a emotional reaction to something I said. Equally as important, he identified his own feeling and communicated it calmly in an effort to resolve it.<P>Wow wow wow!<P>You are right, I will roll with the punches and the positive may far outweigh the negative. Maybe I feel that compared to the bordom he had in his old job, I was more exciting. And he had time for us. Factor in fatigue, different focus and the initial rush of empowerment and I guess I am concerned about not looking too exciting in comparison. So the next advise is...do something for yourself. Good idea, but again I am going to have to pick up the slack at least for the next six month until he's his first project is completed and he is riding the crest of the learning curve, so I will have my hands and my mini van full. Could I be a little jealous that my H has this wonderful opportunity to recreate himself and I'm just plain old me even if I am the new and improved version? Hmmm...got to think about that.<P>Does it worry anybody that I am answering my own posts? Is that a sign that I'm a fruit loop or what?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I hear you, girlfriend.<P>What's amazing is that not only did he tell you he was disappointed in your reaction, but actually listened to your reply.<P>Yeah, you probably feel a bit insecure with the change -- I know I did. For years, I was the primary breadwinner. He really didn't make enough to "make it" without me. I liked that dependency, it made me feel secure.<P>Suddenly, he didn't "need" me anymore -- at least not financially. Then the insecurities kicked in -- I'm not tall, I'm not thin, I'm over 40, why should he stay with me when he can now attract some young chickie.<P>Amazing how we absorb those societal messages, eh? That I'm loyal, a great money manager, don't demand help with the housework, have a master's degree and work full time also, meant nothing, right? <P>But over time, and with the Plan A stuff, I started to enjoy what it meant. I started doing "wifey" stuff, as a wife rather than as "mom." I started making dinner so we could eat together. That this job provides lunch helps; he's not as hungry when he gets home. I started trying to make home a "haven of refuge" for him -- and he responded.<P>It's been nice...for both of us, I think. That's why this business with his boss b*tching at him all the time, calling him incompetent, is such a drag....even if it doesn't result in him being fired (which hasn't happened yet).<P>Sometimes these "great opportunities" are a test of our OWN self-esteem, rather than what they mean for our spouses.

H has always made at least double as I did and now it's between 6 and 7 times as much. That's OK...I moved to a small town, basically sabatoging my career and I need to be flexible while I raise my kids. My H has always seen everything as ours. I think he wishes I could make more money AND be flexible for the kids...but it isn't a big deal and hopefully with his nice raise will not even be a little deal.<P>I think I am every bit as intelligent as H, but in very different areas, so we are non competitive and I think compliment one another. He does wish I was a little more handy. My mechanical skills are a joke and I hate mundane repetitive tasks...like the dishes and laundry for example. Although I'm no Martha Steward, we get by nicely. <P>I am blessed with everything in life I could possibly want. I guess I'm willing to accept change, I just don't want to lose the contentment and joy in my life for any reason.

Hi FHL -<P>Just wanted to make sure I caught you before you left to say "Have a wonderful time and you'll have to tell me all about it when you get back!!"<P>I think the new job is a fantastic thing - the goal that you both worked so hard and diligently towards is at it's fruition. YAY!!!!<P>Not only have you achieved that goal but with the "feeling" being brought out of H - well, there's two goals that you're accomplishing!!! GOOD FOR YOU!!!!<P>Definitely, take it as a positive!! After some settlement into the new job and H's newfound "clued" ness (TEEHEE) you both can discover new goals to strive for together!!!<P>This as very exciting and will certainly guarantee no "rut" for H to "crisis" about!!!<P>Just keep in mind, and I know you will, that he may be a little less attentive and don't take it personally. He'll have a lot of adjustments coming his way and I know that you understand that.<P>Thank you for responding to my thread the other day - I'm still trying to figure some things out so I haven't responded yet. I think H asked me if I listen to Police Scanner cuz he's taken off again with OW - it's not verified - just a hunch at this point!!<P>Life sucks here so I'm glad to know that it's looking good elsewhere!!!<P>Have a great trip and get dirty!!!!!!<P>Love ya,<P>Sheba

Thank you, Sheba, I will try to have a great time.<P>What did you mean by H off with OW?

To the Lake - AGAIN!!!! GRRRRRRR!!

Hi, FHL:<P>Well, H didn't get fired today, but he said his boss was to busy to talk to him today, so he thinks it's going to be tomorrow.<P>He still hasn't updated his resume, so who knows?<P>Meanwhile, I wanted to invite some friends of mine over for dinner one night over the Labor Day weekend, and he said, "Would you mind if I invited some other people? Not as big a deal as last time, but some other friends?"<P>I know damn well who that means. It's HER...and a few others.<P>Any of the others would be fine, but if it's his friends from his old job, it means HER, and I do not want her in my house. I am willing to accept that there's not much going on right now. He is home, he is affectionate all the time, tells me he loves me, and when he works weekends, I'm there with him. I think he thinks they're friends, and he hasn't got a clue about how she's pursuing him. <P>I wonder how long before she gives up? She ain't getting any younger.<P>I don't want her in my house, using my UPSTAIRS bathroom, trying to get my H alone, trying to psych me out while I run around being a hostess. It's disrespectful to me and I don't think I should have to put up with it -- and he refuses to see my POV at all.<P>So I'm not going to ask my friends to come over.<P>I'm more than a little resentful about this, quite frankly. It's not that I don't want him to have friends, but I'm sorry; this woman is not a friend.

I understand and agree with your POV...and I can also see how your H can be as clueless, because mine could be too.<P>But I'm curious, what exactly did you tell him?

I told him I really wasn't up to throwing another party, even a small one. With my friends, all I have to do is pick up a bit, but because SHE wants to wander all over my house, it involves massive cleaning. Then there's the cooking, meal planning, shopping, etc. -- all of which I do, except the actual grilling.<P>I also told him money was a bit tight until the first paychecks in September, which is true. My quarterly bills all come due Sept. 1 and we need $800 of car maintenance. (Of course, if he gets fired, it'll be even tighter).<P>At some point, it's going to be an issue again, and when it is, I'm going to have to risk his wrath by saying I would rather he not go off alone with her; that it makes me uncomfortable. Not that he'll give a rat's a** what I think. He'll just fly off the handle and stomp out, and I'll have to deal with my anxiety at that point.<P>But the fact that he's with me all the time, and the probability that they're in enough contact via home and E-mail for him to still be considering inviting her to our house, would HAVE to mean that at least on his side, he's thinking "friends", right? There are ZERO signs of anything going on, other than her continued presence. H has no concept of how attractive he is, and he may very well think she's just friendly. I don't know. But I don't want to have to sit in my own backyard and watch her making goo-goo eyes at him and him all pleased about it.

Your whole situation baffles me. I truly understand and believe that woman is a predator and she may be sizing up your H for her piece of meat.<P>I can believe your H just ambles along not seeing the situation for what it is. <P>But think about this Dazed, are your reactions and statements making your communications with H about her so charged, he naturally gets defensive, you see this to mean she means more than she does and that causes you to turn up the heat another degree?<P>I'm tired, so I'm probibly not to sharp, but it seems to me that you have it soooo together in all areas of your life except this little slice. You have been concerned about her and in your efforts to solve this problem, you have improved your whole marriage. Although you think there's nothing physical at this time and only a friends relationship in his mind, this issue is huge in your mind.<P>So assuming your H thinks you are way off base, he sees you bristol and say something snide about cleaning the house because she wanders through it, and he automatically becomes defensive. You think he is defending her, but maybe your demeanor so changes when she comes up, he is just recoiling. You see his defensiveness and that "new" pour in love units wife takes that as "proof" you are right to feel uneasy and the spiral begins. Actually the dance begins because at least with this issue, neither of you can calmly put the issue on the table and work it out.<P>Again, Dazed, I agree with you. That lady is a tramp. Your H should be more sensitive to your feelings even when he thinks they are irrational, but I think it could be your stunted communication in this area that is making the whole thing worse.<P>By the way, my H tends to discount my feelings when he thinks they are irrational. Because if it is not logical, it shouldn't be a thought in his mind.<P>Am I way off base here? Sorry for the dribble, I'm really sleepy.

No, FHL, not off base at all; in fact, you have it right on the money.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>are your reactions and statements making your communications with H about her so charged, he naturally gets defensive, you see this to mean she means more than she does and that causes you to turn up the heat<BR> another degree?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I try mightily not to, but I can't guarantee how it's coming across.<P>It's entirely possible that I've made her into a bugaboo that she's not, merely because she is predatory and tactless, and he is insensitive. It's the defensiveness, though, that's triggered most of the reaction. He just doesn't get it, and instead of trying to understand, he clams up, decides I'm making accusations, and that's the end of it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Although you think there's nothing physical at this time and only a friends<BR> relationship in his mind, this issue is huge in your mind.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, it is. And I've tried to figure out why. My therapist says I use her to focus on when other things about the marriage are bothering me; that I project this when I'm angry or upset at him, because I'm afraid to be angry at him. She may have a point.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>he sees you bristol and say<BR> something snide about cleaning the house because she wanders through it, and he<BR> automatically becomes defensive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well, I didn't exactly do that. I just told him that I wasn't up to a big to-do with a bunch of people, even if we don't do it on the scale of last time (which took a month of planning). Plus, it's expensive to host a party, and he's the one who's saying we should economize right now. But I didn't like that these were the conditions under which I could invite my friends (who BTW are perfectly willing to be "couple friends"; it's my H that resists), I decided to forgo it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You think he is defending her, but maybe your demeanor so changes when she comes up, he is just recoiling. You see his<BR> defensiveness and that "new" pour in love units wife takes that as "proof" you are<BR> right to feel uneasy and the spiral begins. Actually the dance begins because at least<BR> with this issue, neither of you can calmly put the issue on the table and work it out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, bingo. But he's always been defensive about her. Maybe that's where reading too many books is a problem, because every last one of them says that defensiveness about the other person is a sure sign that something unsavory is going on. H tends to be defensive anyway. If I ask him if he's happy with something I'm doing, he replies, "Why did you think I wasn't?"<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That lady is a tramp. Your H should be more sensitive to your feelings even when he thinks they are irrational, but I think it could be your stunted communication in this area that is making the whole thing worse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Absolutely. Because there's no way to clear the air. He's told me they aren't that close, but then he's secretive and the two of them make goo-goo eyes at each other. He says they're just friends, but then he walks her to her car when he doesn't walk anyone else. Yeah, it's insensitive...but it's REALLY insensitive.<P>I'll admit to having gotten more than a bit fixated on this...but I think his unwillingness to even listen to my concerns has exacerbated my feelings, as you say.<P>

Wow...I'm going to think about all of this. We have defined much of the problem, but the solution seems out of reach because of the huge gap between you two on this issue.<P>Besides being an obnoxious tramp, this lady is high maintainence. If she has some career power over H and has been his friend, all the little "extras" he bestows this woman may be nothing more than her expecting them. I mean, do you have a few friends that you just need to treat "special" just to maintain the relationship because they are higher strung or just different? She probibly initiates those goo goo eyes and H is just responding to her higher than average attention grabbing need. If he does not see the inappropriateness of this (since in his own mind it is nothing) but you do not miss a detail, it just gets worse. I'm not sure if that lady can play you or your H better. I bet it is some kind of game to her, conscious or not.<P>So what are your possible list of solutions and which of those do you think your H could buy into?<P>Don't say there are none, at some point you are going to have to take the leap into your fear of making him angry. If you have a well thought out solution, he may surprise you if you take his position into account.<P>This woman is something tangible. Maybe your therapist if right in that you use her because it is easier than defining other less tanible smaller things.<P>Plus I think you have to see your H's defensiveness in the context of his larger personality. I know you realize it, but you still seperate it on this one issue and interpret it differently.<P>I have made great strides in resolving conflict with my H, who although is not defensive, but unemotional and hates to talk. It hasn't been easy and it doesn't seem natural, but as long as I remain calm, I can hold both of our feet to the fire and get the job done. If there has been one significant change in our marriage post affair it has probibly been this...and ironically it really doesn't have anything to do with the affair.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Besides being an obnoxious tramp, this lady is high maintainence. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She probibly initiates those goo goo eyes and H is just responding to her higher than average attention grabbing need. If he does not see the inappropriateness of this (since in his own mind it is nothing) but you do not miss a detail, it just gets worse. I'm not sure if that lady can play you or your H<BR> better. I bet it is some kind of game to her, conscious or not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Exactly. Oh, I'm sure it's a game to her. Perhaps the game is even more important than the goal. I mean, yeah, my H looks mighty good, but even my therapist (who will not hesitate to tell me when I'm full of sh*t) tells me that few women would do the things I do for him with such dedication for so long...and why is she chasing so hard after a guy who doesn't like children? (And no, he hasn't changed his mind about that. I asked.) <P>It became very clear to me at our BBQ that she delights in psyching me out. Divide and conquer, you know. It must be driving her CRAZY that I haven't played according to her script.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Don't say there are none, at some point you are going to have to take the leap into your fear of making him angry. If you have a well thought out solution, he may<BR> surprise you if you take his position into account.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, the ideal solution would be for him to make very clear to her that he's with me, that he's staying with me, that he's not available to her, and that she should treat me with the appropriate respect. But that's not going to happen.<P>No, the solution, because he refuses to acknowledge or listen to my POV, is for me to just let the chips fall where they may, continue as I've been doing, allow him to invite her to the house, kill her with kindness -- and have faith that it'll all work out. I'm not sure I feel quite strong enough to do that yet.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have made great strides in resolving conflict with my H, who although is not<BR> defensive, but unemotional and hates to talk. It hasn't been easy and it doesn't seem<BR> natural, but as long as I remain calm, I can hold both of our feet to the fire and get<BR> the job done.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Calm helps, definitely. I have been successful twice in letting him know exactly why she makes me uncomfortable, by doing just that. But he still doesn't seem to get it, nor is he inclined to give an inch. And that's what bothers me; it's the insensitivity.