THIS IS LONG!<BR>Hi,<BR> I'm pretty new to Dr. Harley's concepts for marriage. I have been married 2.5 years. My mother gave my husband and me the "The Four Gifts of Love" book for Christmas this past year and that ignited my curiosity towards Dr. Harley's marriage principles. We were a little past the "Four Gifts" book being applicable for us, though it would have been nice to have read before we were married. So, I recently bought "His Needs, Her Needs," "Give & Take," and "Love Busters." I have been reading "His Needs, Her Needs" first and am about half-way through it. Though I would like for my husband to read it as well, I have been imparting some interesting information along to him (from both points of view) as I go along. I have also read a lot of information from the Marriage Builders website and am familiar with Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts.<BR> Right now, our biggest area of conflict is meeting my husband's need for sexual fulfillment. Our first choice of birth control was Depo-provera, a hormone-based birth control shot administered 4x/year. It worked for great for birth control because I had NO desire to have sex at all! For a couple who abstained from sex before marriage and a husband whose #1 emotional need is sexual fulfillment, this was VERY difficult for us to get through. Though my husband is a very loving and giving husband, sex became forced and was practically demanded. He would be in tears if I wasn't willing or, if I was willing but not enthusiastic, the sex didn't mean much to him and he would still be in tears--even after I had suffered through it and tried to please him. After we figured out that the Depo-provera was causing these problems for me/us, I stopped using it immediately. However, the emotional damage remains. Sex is pretty much still not desirable for me and was getting harder and harder for me to participate and enjoy--even if I was aroused . . . which seemed to be happening less and less, as well.<BR> After reading through some of Dr. Harley's articles, I realized that I was headed pretty quickly towards a sexual aversion. I discussed with my husband trying Dr. Harley’s relaxation technique to overcome a sexual aversion. At first, he was all for it if it would help the problem, but now, his patience is wearing thin. I have been practicing the relaxation techniques for almost 2 weeks and am about to the point where I can invite him into the room while I relax. We both kind of figured that it might take as much as a month of the relaxation technique for me to overcome any aversion towards sex. Of course, it could take longer or not as long. I have REALLY been trying to overcome the problem with this technique and I can tell it is working–in other words, I haven’t been slacking off and just using this “non-sex” time for ME–I’ve been using the time to help restore US.<BR> My husband’s biggest problem/question really deals with The Policy of Joint Agreement: whether or not it clashes with the Biblical principle of submission. At the moment, his problem with this principle is worse while he waits as I am trying to restore a healthy desire–instead of an aversion--for sex. He feels as though I should be able to meet any of his needs without having to compromise–after all, a wife is supposed to meet her husband’s needs just as a Christian is to meet God’s wishes/commands for us and, if we disagree with what God wants us to do, we are to do it anyway and get over any ill feelings about it. (And the husband should meet his wife’s needs, etc.) I guess in principle, I agree, but I have TRIED for 2 years to operate that way by providing sex when I didn’t want to--and was "forced" (not physically, but emotionally)--and things continued to worsen for me emotionally–it was getting harder and harder to meet that need because of how it made me feel. So, even though I have tried to explain to him that I feel like Dr. Harley’s relaxation technique has been helping heal the emotional damage done in the past, because his patience is giving out, he is bringing up the issue of “sacrificial love” versus The Policy of Joint Agreement.<BR> This is the one area where he is afraid The Policy of Joint Agreement would hurt, rather than help, him and, therefore, our relationship. Now, he’s not a reader and he’s not read as much of Dr. Harley’s materials as I have–though he said he will once I am finished–but I can see where applying Dr. Harley’s principles could do nothing but boost a marital relationship and restore it to more of a dating/romantic relationship. At first, he could see that, too. I think he’s very frustrated right now and is having problems with everything because of that. And, for the record, just based on what we jointly read in “The Four Gifts of Love,” he agrees with all the gifts (honesty, care, and time). He agrees with avoiding Love Busters. He just has a big problem with The Policy of Joint Agreement.<BR> So . . . are there any answers that could help me explain this to him in a way that he doesn’t feel contradicts the Bible? I’m not interested in arguing with him further about this by trying to tell him that he should give up that whole “Biblical submission” idea so, please don’t suggest that. I am interested in being able to explain it so that he can understand it and that there, very likely, is no conflict with the Bible at all. I’ve already shared with him one quote from Dr. Harley where he says something about unconditional love not being that you would do anything for your spouse, even it hurts you, but that you would not let your spouse do things for you that hurt him/her . . . or something like that. Apparently, that didn’t sink in with my husband. I was looking forward to us learning how to successfully negotiate so that our needs were met but not at the price of emotional damage to the other person. I was looking forward to us becoming US instead of two selfish individuals who think that their needs should be met no matter what. Now I’m wondering if that is possible unless my husband can embrace The Policy of Joint Agreement.<BR> Sorry for the length of this post . . . wanted to give background information. THANK YOU for any suggestions/help you can provide.<p>[This message has been edited by Garnet (edited June 02, 2001).]

I, too, am grappling with the apparent conflict between Biblical submission and the POJA. But I will say, as a Christian woman who has been married 17 years, I have built up quite a bit of resentment that the only way I have been able to keep my marriage pleasant is by letting my husband have his way most of the time. <P>I have received much teaching along the lines of "if two people disagree it stands to reason that only one can make the final decision, and Biblically, it's the husband." I've been taught that women are more prone to deception, women who assert themselves too much are "Jezebels" and that when men become influenced by their wife's emotional needs, they will be held back from effective ministry and home leadership. Etc, etc. I've even found myself believing that I'm too emotional to contribute to making important decisions. <P>I have studied for myself and found these teachings to be false. I have struggled with a sense of shame that I thought so little of myself. In many areas my judgement has proven to be superior to my husband's. I like what Dr. Harley says about the POJA -- that it enalbes a couple to benefit from each other's wisdom and create solutions agreeable to both. We have typically given up too soon, cutting off the possiblilty of "thinking outside the box" of just his way vs. my way.<P>You might be interested in an article I ran across on the Billy Graham website about the 8th commandment. I was surprised by the parallels between Dr. Harley's material and the points made in the article, primarily the idea that we are not to live at another's expense. The author points out that this is the heart attitude behind stealing.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.decisionmag.org/print.asp?path=biblestudy&issue=2000.08" TARGET=_blank>http://www.decisionmag.org/print.asp?path=biblestudy&issue=2000.08</A> <P>I'd be interested in knowing if other users have found insights into this issue.<P>But to balance this relpy, and since the issue is sex, I've also found Dr. Harley's analogy to a person who must depend on another to satisfy his/her basic need of thirst very enlightening, and a good way to start building empathy for the one whose need for sex isn't being met. It's also helpful to read his thoughts that there should be no sacrifice in marriage (we shouldn't want the other to have to sacrifice and be unhappy for us...). <P>By the way, my husband is having a lot of trouble with the POJA, too.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Garnet:<BR><B>THIS IS LONG!<BR>Hi,<BR> I'm pretty new to Dr. Harley's concepts for marriage. I have been married 2.5 years. My mother gave my husband and me the "The Four Gifts of Love" book for Christmas this past year and that ignited my curiosity towards Dr. Harley's marriage principles. We were a little past the "Four Gifts" book being applicable for us, though it would have been nice to have read before we were married. So, I recently bought "His Needs, Her Needs," "Give & Take," and "Love Busters." I have been reading "His Needs, Her Needs" first and am about half-way through it. Though I would like for my husband to read it as well, I have been imparting some interesting information along to him (from both points of view) as I go along. I have also read a lot of information from the Marriage Builders website and am familiar with Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts.<BR> Right now, our biggest area of conflict is meeting my husband's need for sexual fulfillment. Our first choice of birth control was Depo-provera, a hormone-based birth control shot administered 4x/year. It worked for great for birth control because I had NO desire to have sex at all! For a couple who abstained from sex before marriage and a husband whose #1 emotional need is sexual fulfillment, this was VERY difficult for us to get through. Though my husband is a very loving and giving husband, sex became forced and was practically demanded. He would be in tears if I wasn't willing or, if I was willing but not enthusiastic, the sex didn't mean much to him and he would still be in tears--even after I had suffered through it and tried to please him. After we figured out that the Depo-provera was causing these problems for me/us, I stopped using it immediately. However, the emotional damage remains. Sex is pretty much still not desirable for me and was getting harder and harder for me to participate and enjoy--even if I was aroused . . . which seemed to be happening less and less, as well.<BR> After reading through some of Dr. Harley's articles, I realized that I was headed pretty quickly towards a sexual aversion. I discussed with my husband trying Dr. Harley’s relaxation technique to overcome a sexual aversion. At first, he was all for it if it would help the problem, but now, his patience is wearing thin. I have been practicing the relaxation techniques for almost 2 weeks and am about to the point where I can invite him into the room while I relax. We both kind of figured that it might take as much as a month of the relaxation technique for me to overcome any aversion towards sex. Of course, it could take longer or not as long. I have REALLY been trying to overcome the problem with this technique and I can tell it is working–in other words, I haven’t been slacking off and just using this “non-sex” time for ME–I’ve been using the time to help restore US.<BR> My husband’s biggest problem/question really deals with The Policy of Joint Agreement: whether or not it clashes with the Biblical principle of submission. At the moment, his problem with this principle is worse while he waits as I am trying to restore a healthy desire–instead of an aversion--for sex. He feels as though I should be able to meet any of his needs without having to compromise–after all, a wife is supposed to meet her husband’s needs just as a Christian is to meet God’s wishes/commands for us and, if we disagree with what God wants us to do, we are to do it anyway and get over any ill feelings about it. (And the husband should meet his wife’s needs, etc.) I guess in principle, I agree, but I have TRIED for 2 years to operate that way by providing sex when I didn’t want to--and was "forced" (not physically, but emotionally)--and things continued to worsen for me emotionally–it was getting harder and harder to meet that need because of how it made me feel. So, even though I have tried to explain to him that I feel like Dr. Harley’s relaxation technique has been helping heal the emotional damage done in the past, because his patience is giving out, he is bringing up the issue of “sacrificial love” versus The Policy of Joint Agreement.<BR> This is the one area where he is afraid The Policy of Joint Agreement would hurt, rather than help, him and, therefore, our relationship. Now, he’s not a reader and he’s not read as much of Dr. Harley’s materials as I have–though he said he will once I am finished–but I can see where applying Dr. Harley’s principles could do nothing but boost a marital relationship and restore it to more of a dating/romantic relationship. At first, he could see that, too. I think he’s very frustrated right now and is having problems with everything because of that. And, for the record, just based on what we jointly read in “The Four Gifts of Love,” he agrees with all the gifts (honesty, care, and time). He agrees with avoiding Love Busters. He just has a big problem with The Policy of Joint Agreement.<BR> So . . . are there any answers that could help me explain this to him in a way that he doesn’t feel contradicts the Bible? I’m not interested in arguing with him further about this by trying to tell him that he should give up that whole “Biblical submission” idea so, please don’t suggest that. I am interested in being able to explain it so that he can understand it and that there, very likely, is no conflict with the Bible at all. I’ve already shared with him one quote from Dr. Harley where he says something about unconditional love not being that you would do anything for your spouse, even it hurts you, but that you would not let your spouse do things for you that hurt him/her . . . or something like that. Apparently, that didn’t sink in with my husband. I was looking forward to us learning how to successfully negotiate so that our needs were met but not at the price of emotional damage to the other person. I was looking forward to us becoming US instead of two selfish individuals who think that their needs should be met no matter what. Now I’m wondering if that is possible unless my husband can embrace The Policy of Joint Agreement.<BR> Sorry for the length of this post . . . wanted to give background information. THANK YOU for any suggestions/help you can provide.<P>[This message has been edited by Garnet (edited June 02, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Take a look a the book "I Love You, Let's Work It Out" by David Viscott. It's a great book. In Chapter 15, there is a section on "The Most Common Female Sexual Problem". It describes your problem exactly. <P>There is no way you are ever going to want to be sexual with your husband under these circumstances. Is your husband meeting your emotional need for affection? It does not seem like he is. From what I can tell, his approach to sex is that you HAVE to give it to him. Well he has an obligation as a loving husband to make you feel loved and cared for. <P>It is simple, women need romance and affection: Romance = Sex. I would like to suggest two other books for you and your husband: <P>"1001 Ways To Be Romantic" by Gregory Godek. It's a wonderfully fun book. My husband and I keep it out in our bedroom. Once in a while one of us will reference it to fuel our imagination.<P>The other book is "Making Love Better Than Ever" by Barbara Keesling.", it will teach you and your husband techniques for pleasing each other very tenderly. <P>I have used one technique that really works to wake up a person’s libido. In your husbands current state it may be hard for him, but it really works. Wish I could remember the book I read it in. Anyway, for two weeks, husband and wife set aside ½ to 1 hour nightly. On the first night one of takes the lead in loving the other – but no intercourse is permitted. Only loving caresses, kisses, talking. The point is to love the other with no pressure for sex. The next night the other does this. The couple continues taking turns and doing this for about two weeks. Some of the sensate focus exercises in the "Making Love Better Than Ever" book would really help both of you enjoy this more. I can tell you from experience that after a week or two of this, a person’s libido will return. If your husband can love you like this with no pressure for intercourse your love bank will be so filled and your sexual desires so stimulated that you will be wanting sex. I know it worked like charm for me. <P>The POJA does not clash with any biblical teachings. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that a woman must submit to her husband even if it is detrimental to her mental health. It does say that a man should love is wife more then he loves himself. That he should love his wife as Christ loves the Church. By the way, not only does the Bible say that the wife should be submissive to her husband but the husband has an obligation to provide for her sexually too. I don’t have the chapter and verse for these off the top of my head right now but I have read it. It was my husband who showed me these Biblical points when we were discussing each or our responsibility in our marriage. So there are obligations both ways. Somehow, the one that about the husband’s responsibilities get pushed aside in many discussions.<P>IMHO<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Whoa! on the submission stuff.<P>In giving us free will, God gives us the choice to love him, He does not inflict His will on us, nor force us to accept His love.<P>In this light, the POJA is NOT going against biblical teachings. In fact, the Bible teaches that we love others as we love ourselves. In numerous passages, the Bible talks about the man and woman cleaving together, to become one. This is not submission.<P>The problem with Bible-quoting: if you look far enough, and couch it properly, there probably isn't a single issue stance that you could not support "biblically"-speaking.<P>The Bible teaches moral conduct, history, and the beginnings of the Christian faith. Note that last word, faith. It is within faith that we put the Bible's tenets into everyday practice, not within confrontational, quote-spewing, vengence-reaping approaches. Though you can support those <smile> "biblically." Those who can not do, spew; those who live their faith, are comfortable enough within the fold's of God's cloth not to have to resort to those tactics.<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL

The bible does say that a wife should be submissive to her husband.....and in Gen. 3 v 16 it even gives a vertical not horizontal "pecking" order to the husband/wife relationship......but if you look at the bible completely,<BR>it COMMANDS the husband to love his wife as christ loves the church...which christ gave ALL to the church which means the husband should give all to the wife, all her needs, everything fulfilled even if it means sacrificing his "life" to do it. Any man who treats his wife this way probably won't have to deal with a non-submissive wife, the question of submissiveness wouldn't even come up. You can't just follow what you want to in the bible and expect all principles to just happen. If he wants submissiveness then let him be who GOD has said he needs to be. It follows the old saying.....If a man wants to be treated like a king....treat the wife like a queen!!!!!!<p>[This message has been edited by aeroman (edited June 29, 2001).]

I think that you are trying very hard<P>You need a professinal who can help <BR>you fix things because things are going<BR>on with you and him that are pushing you<BR>both away from each other<P>You both need some answers<P>I promise you knowing Depo for many years<BR>as a used contra, used by many whom I have<BR>counselled, it does not affect your or it<BR>would be rejected by doctors<P>It is a matter of communication by you and him<P>Read the communication and conversation on the <BR>site which coaches you what to say and how to<BR>converse with each other<P>Write to me and I will help you on<BR>kidnpuppetshow@yahoo.com and refer you to the <BR>right places<P>Find a minister quickly in your area and<BR>get chatting because you need professional<BR>intervention to help you both think about<BR>each other in the correct way and it will<BR>dissolve your misconceptions<P>You can fix this relationship but you must<BR>go seek help because otherwise it will dissolve<BR>like a fizzy tablet and leave you with a cold<BR>and empty home<P>Carol<BR>kidnpuppetshow@yahoo.com<P>Log into <A HREF="http://www.allexperts.com" TARGET=_blank>www.allexperts.com</A> and you can ask<BR>pro<BR>'s advice there<BR> <A HREF="http://www.prayertoweronline.org" TARGET=_blank>www.prayertoweronline.org</A> <BR>

Garnet,<P>This was a very interesting dilemna--so much so that I did a quick study of the topic of submission of wives. Here's what I discovered:<P>There are basically three places that folks often use when saying that a wife is "commanded" to submit to her husband--Ephesians 5, Colossians 3, and I Peter 3--so I pulled out the Book itself and took a look. Now, let me warn you that I am not interesting in theological debate, I just wanted to see what God was trying to say for mysef.<P>In Ephesians 5, the entire chapter is an exhortation to holy living. Hey, even verse one says, "Follow God's example in everything..." The author, Paul, was writing to the new group of Christians on the island of Ephesus, and he was trying to explain to them the idea that as a new group of Christians, they had to behave and live their life in such a way that their very ACTIONS would indicate that there was something different about them. First, Paul tells them to avoid behavior like sexual sin, impurtiy and greed--don't even tell dirty jokes (verses 3-4)! Next, he tells them to walk in the light and don't even associate with people who have a reputation for evil (verses 5-9). In verses 10-14 he tells them that the folks who are sinful and ungodly will have their sin exposed--they can count on it. <P>The meat and potatoes of the chapter is verses 14-33. In these verses, Paul lines out for the folks in Ephesus the Duties of Christian Life. He tells them to strive to understand the will of God (v. 17); don't be drunkards (v.18); speak positively in songs and praises (v. 19), and be thankful (v. 20); and be humble and submit to one another (v. 21). Personally, I took these verses to be instructions on how to behave in the community, and I interpreted the "submit to one another" part to mean, rather than bicker and squabble amongst yourselvers, be willing to let the other guy have his way.<P>Now, next are the wives' duties to their husbands (v 22-24); these are the verses often quoted to force women into submission: "You wives must submit to your husbands' leadership in the same way you submit to the Lord, for a husband is in charge of his wife in the same way the Messiah is in charge of his body, the church. (He gave his very life to take care of it and be its Savior!) So you wifes should willingly obey your husbands in everything just as the church obeys the Messiah."<P>I think it is interesting that most often the men stop there and insist on their selfish demand, because the chapter does NOT stop there! There's more!! Yet somehow, the verses after these verses are forgotten or ignored or "whatever", and it's a shame. In and of themselves, I think verses 22-24 clearly demonstrate that we wives are supposed to let our husbands be the leaders of their families, but it also says right in these verses that the leaders are supposed to lead in a way that GIVES THEIR VERY LIFE TO TAKE CARE of their wives!! Also, just a little note: there are two verses here of wives' duties to their husbands.<P>The verses that are so often skipped or ignored are verses 25-33: husbands' duties to their wives. WOW!! Eight verses versus two verses! (lots of "versus verses" huh?? ) Anyway, just looking at the 8 v 2, I would say that husbands are a lot more responsible--as the leaders, they are the ones who are responsible to learn and lead their families in godly ways--not us wives! Anyway, I LOVE verses 25-33, because in those verses Paul clearly says that mean are supposed to shoe the same love and compassion and empathy and effort toward their wives that the Messiah did toward his church. He DIED for her! And verses 26 and 27 are especially powerful. He died so that His bride (the church) could be spotless, without blemish, holy, and without a single fault!!! WOW!! That is how much a husband is supposed to love his wife--keep her best interests at heart so she can be spotless and without a single fault! Then v. 28 says "That is how husbands should treat their wives, loving them as parts of themselves." <P>So Garnet, let me ask you one simple and easy question here. Does he force himself to do things that hurt him, are uncomfortable to him, are emotionally painful and damaging to him, and mentally cruel and sorrowful to him FOR YOU??? Of course not! And you wouldn't expect him to let you force him, or hurt him or cause him pain--right? Then if he loves you as much as he does part of himself, he would not expect YOU to do something that hurts you, is uncomfortable for you, is mentally cruel and sorrowful for you FOR HIM!!!<P>Colossians 3 is another chapter often quoted to enforce submission, and once again, if you read the entire chapter, rather than just looking at verse 19, you'll see a similar pattern. The entire chapter is a discussion about having Holy Ambitions. This time, Paul is writing to the folks on Colossus, and he is telling them that now that they are Christians, they are dead to sin--they don't have to live that way anymore and they shouldn't spend their time worrying about things here on earth. In fact, they should put away sinful, earthly thinking. Then, he gives them several examples of the kinds of behave to stop doing: evil desires, lust, lying, etc. In verses 12 and 13, Paul then identifies some of the Christian behaviors of mercy, kindness, humility, meekness, and forgiveness. <P>Now, here come the meat and potatoes: How to live a life of Spiritual Love. It's cool, too, because Paul does this in a neat way. V. 18--wives, submit to your husbands because that's what God wants, v. 19--but you husbands be kind and loving to your wives and don't be harsh and bitter against them!! V. 20--kids, obey your parents because it pleases God, v. 21--but you parents don't provoke your kids and scold them until they are discouraged!! The rest of the chapter could be summarized by saying, in everything you do--even the smallest things--do them as if you are doing them to please God. <P>Did you notice something there, Garnet? Paul didn't say, "You wives be doormats and let your husbands do whatever they want, because they are the men." I think if he intended to say that, he would have said that! No, he said, "Yeah, it's true the wives should let their husbands be the leaders and submit (which, by the way, means to succumb, to relinquish, to abide; but also means to volunteer, to suggest, to propose!), BUT YOU HUSBANDS NEED TO BE KIND AND LOVING AND DON'T BE SO HARSH!! How much clearer could it be?<P>I won't discuss I Peter 3, because I bet you are beginning to see a pattern here. There really is no conflict between the Policy of Joint Agreement and the biblical concept of submission, because he's forgetting the additional biblical concept of being a kind, loving, and gentle husband who loves his wife as himself and is not harsh with her. Garnet, you have read the Policy of Joint Agreement, right? In summary, it says that a husband and wife should not do anything until both people enthusiastically agree--if one persons "wins" then love loses. I would compare this to the TWO biblical concepts of submission (wife) and loving you as much as himself (husband). In both concepts, when an issue or situation or question or decision arises both people in the marriage think of the other person and consider the other person's needs, both people are willing to be thoughtful and loving of the other (in other words, they're not being selfish), and both people behave in a way that shows caring and concern and love for the other person. Until you both enthusiastically agree, the fact of the matter is that he is being selfish and demanding, he is harming and hurting you emotionally, and he is not loving you as much as he loves himself. <P>Gee, that's sounds pretty harsh, but I think you can see now how the Policy of Joint Agreement is actually just another way of restating the TWO concepts of biblical submission and husbands loving their wives as much as themselves. I hope this is helpful to ya, and I hope you can keep using Dr. Harley's sex aversion relaxation techniques to help restore a physical aspect of love to your marriage.<P>{{{{{Garnet}}}}}<P>CJ<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

I agree that the general current Christian ideal American male is not actually measuring up to the perfect ideal put forth in the bible – that of Christ – the man any Christian male is meant to emulate. Most men these days are quite happy to quote the point of submission – and forget their side of the deal, being the “as the messiah” bit.<P>So how did Jesus treat the congregation? How did he treat his apostles? Did he use guilt to manipulate them? Did he demand?<P>No. He humbled himself. He washed their feet. He was patient. He was kind.<P>Sexual issues are a very sensitive spot with most men – but only because this is a very real need for them. There is in marriage sex for him, and sex for her. It’s really great when both parties are on the same wavelength, but that doesn’t happen very often. How you choose to handle your situation will be unique to you and your relationship. <P>Because of some very severe stresses in my life I have an aversion to sex now that I did not have in my first marriage. (My first husband died of cancer). But every night I do offer my husband a romp, not because I have to, but because I love him, I want him to be happy, and I understand his needs. I do ask that he does not touch my breasts (this stresses me), but everything else is fine. About once a week we do the nice relaxing “lovemaking” sex that requires my being able to relax to enjoy it. This works for us.<P>To expect that in real life you are going to be able to relax every time might be just a little unrealistic. There are two kinds of sex – the baseness of the act itself, and lovemaking. If you find that there is one thing that shuts you off during “sex for him” (like I discovered about my breasts) try helping him understand that.<BR>