Hello.<p>My GF and I are pretty serious, but one concern really keeps us from taking that next step. I am an Aethiest and she is very religious (Apenacostle?). Anyway, she was brought up not watching TV and other things that seem absurd and cruel to me. Now an adult (age 25) she has told me that she has made up her own mind. While she isn't as "bible-thumping" as an Apenacostle typically would be she is very devout. I attempted an early compromise by claiming that I would be willing to go to a Unitarian church (common message, community service and then all faiths break out into their indivduals sects for their own type of prayers). I would be okay with this for me and our someday kids because I could treat it as educational and feel it would allow the kids freedom of choice and an education. She orignally was not to hip on this idea. She said she could go to a non-denomination christain church adn that she'd be okay with that. Not sure I can bend quite that far. When we discuss religion I start talking and she eventually cries. I/we try so hard to avoid those confrontations. She is a socially major and is very intent on making the realtionship with me work. Is that enough? Any advice?

When you have differences that revolve around the core of your beliefs, I think it's a big problem waiting to happen. I applaud your willingness to compromise but IMO such fundamental differences are very difficult to overcome.

Hey Jack! No such thing as a "non-denominational" church pal. They've all got their roots in a denomination somewhere. Unitaritans too. For you I'd suggest however the largest "non-denominational" church you can find. Then you and your views can be lost in the crowd while your GF is free to exercise hers. Then your "someday" children can have a place to form their own opinions. And "church hopping" is OK until YOU find a place you're comfortable with. Suggest that to your GF. Just hit several churches till you find one you both agree on. And may I suggest also you read the book,"Every Step is Peace". OPK I'm through Suggesting now. Jerry.

Hey Jack! No such thing as a "non-denominational" church pal. They've all got their roots in a denomination somewhere. Unitaritans too. For you I'd suggest however the largest "non-denominational" church you can find. Then you and your views can be lost in the crowd while your GF is free to exercise hers. Then your "someday" children can have a place to form their own opinions. And "church hopping" is OK until YOU find a place you're comfortable with. Suggest that to your GF. Just hit several churches till you find one you both agree on. And may I suggest also you read the book,"Every Step is Peace". OK I'm through Suggesting now. Jerry.

Some observations and maybe some answers.<p>Sounds a lot like me and my XW.<p>Go to www.insightlearning.com. Click "Free Personality Test". Select "Personality Info". I'm willing to bet that your GF has a "Blue" personality and that you have a "Green" personality, just like me and my XW.<p>If I'm on target then I'll bet that she FEELS her beliefs to be true, whereas you THINK your beliefs to be true.<p>Realize that a debate with her about religious beliefs is pointless. I'll bet she can't give you reasons why she believes, she just feels that she is right. It will drive you crazy trying to understand her and you will never get her to see your side by debating with her. Moreover, when you try to debate with her based upon what you think, she cannot answer as she has no "thinking" type answers and just cries as she is concerned about the relationship and relationships are extremely important to Blues. Blues are very delicate, words can absolutely kill them. You're figuring that out, right? The good thing is that Blues are true friends. They would never dream of harming you. The Blue personality type IMHO NEEDS religion. Read through the entire personality type and I think you'll see what I mean. Read your own thoroughly as well. I think you will gain remarkable insight into what you believe and how you behave. This information can help you with your entire relationship.<p>Maybe, with some understanding, you can strike some common ground. What you both need is an open mind and I think that right now both of you are on opposite ends of the spectrum and have closed minds. Rather than searching for truth, you've both staked out your beliefs. IMHO, neither of your views is correct.<p>This will be a very difficult issue to resolve. It will really hurt her feelings if you do not go to church with her. It will really hurt your feelings if you're placed into an environment that tries to press religious beliefs upon you without providing solid proof. I think that if your GF could shield you from the pressure of having to believe then that would go a long way towards you participating in church with her. I think that the common ground would be an understanding that you will benefit from the many good teachings in the Bible that deal with morals and such. I'm certain that you can see the wisdom in the Bible. This will be all well and good so long as your GF understands that you may never agree with her. She has to accept that you may not believe and you have to accept that she will keep believing. In the end, we are all responsible for our own beliefs. <p>This would be true of any children you have. A good friend of mine told me that her mom basically told her "go learn it for yourself" and that is what I think is best for kids. Put it out there and let them choose, because in the end it is what they truly believe that is important, not what someone has taught them.<p>I think this by far will be your most difficult hurdle to overcome. It will either make your relationship or break it.<p>Kevin

You might not be able to count on attending a UU church to solve the problem - it is possible that the church could end up antagonizing both of you. For some people the lack of creed is a problem. The following joke our minister told is not without basis - what do you get when you cross a UU with a Jehovah's Witness - someone who knocks on your door and then has nothing to say.<p>There is a wide range of religious flavor among UU churches - some are more Universalist-leaning (Christian, but without the belief in Hell), some are very liberal (the minister in the church to which I once belonged specifically welcomed atheists and agnostics, and that is why I continued to attend), some are New Age-y, and some are more tradionally Christian. Some of the UU churches have chosen to be "Welcoming Congregations" - ie they specifically welcome gays and lesbians, and for some of these congregations, that, rather than religious leanings, is the overwhelming theme.<p>Some UU churches have a greater emphasis on debate than others - whence the joke about the Unitarian who came to the sign at the fork in the road. One arrow was labeled "This way to Heaven" and the other arrow was labeled "This way to a debate about whether Heaven exists." Guess which fork he took.<p>You and your GF might not be satisfied with the same sort of UU church. Of course there is no law that says you have to attend the same church. Even though both my parents were Unitarians, for many years they attended different churches because my father thought the Unitarian church my mother favored was too Christian.<p>I did not realize until I was an adult that it is common for parents to expect their children to choose the same brand of religion as their parents. Within my immediate family, people at various times have been Unitarian, Methodist, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Catholic, New Age, Atheist, and Agnostic - and one of my kids has a rather unique viewpoint - she believes in Heaven but not God.

Interesting discussion. . .I would have to say, this has been one of the major issues of our courtship and marriage.<p>My husband is a "formerly Catholic" atheist. He is actually very militant about this, or he used to be, anyway. He wants nothing to do with any religion, prayer, historical scripture dealing with religion, ect. I think he takes it to the far extreme, in my opinion. He is not exactly a Madalyn Murray O'Hair, but he is an extremely angry atheist. He will not debate, ponder, or discuss, even if I tried to draw him into a discussion (which I haven't, not in many, many years, anyway.) He will not even reveal the reasons for his personal ideology, or how he came to his beliefs. He just says religion is a waste of time at the least and harmful at the very most (yes, it can be, I am truly convinced, depending upon what you are involved in. This much is true. But it is even more harmful to be judgemental of other people and their beliefs.) But I cannot even talk to him about this. Religion=end of dialogue. <p>I find this kind of interesting when I am told that Christians, or any other people of faith, can not give any reasons for their belief except that they "just believe." It seems that Atheists "just believe" that there is not diety. It would seem kind of arrogant to me to claim that you know everything about the universe just because you have no firm evidence of everything in it right in front of you. Anyways, I leave it alone.<p>As for me, I am a Christian, and I attend church every week. I do study and read my scriptures, as I have ever since I was a little kid. I teach Sunday school to the kids.<p>I asked, only once, if my husband would go to church with me, and that's when we were only about three months into dating. He became terribly upset. Of course, the answer was 'no.' Later on, I tried discussing religion with him, and he went off on this loud tirade about how stupid people are for trusting in something so immaterial and unsubstantial. He went on and on about he met someone who wore tin-foil on his head to heighthen his reception of spirit communication and how freaks like Jim Jones and the Butler guy (neo Nazi group in Idaho, where I am from) and radical Islamics lead people to destruction and how other freaks are all about selling you "miracles" for your hard earned money. There is no god because when you "pray," you are just talking to yourself (do you hear an answer? No? Well, then, there you go.) He says the bible is stupid, anybody could have written it, right? (I don't think so, it is kind of involved to be made up, but whatever.) And church is just a ritual that makes people feel better and going there gives people a reason to look down on other people. He says that if there is a god, then I have to prove it. And if I have ever been spoken to by a god, then I must have schizophrenia. People with schizophrenia hear voices that tell them to do things, right? I tried to ask him how he reached the conclusions he had. And he just said "Because it makes sense. It's science. Anything else is like believing in fairy tales."<p>Anyways, I have never gotten a word in edge-wise about this. And I do not even try, not since we were dating, to talk to him about it. Yet he says that I "force" my beliefs on him. Huh?<p>I have to admit, I had never met anyone in entire life who says there is no spiritual existance and no God. I have met plenty of people who say, "I don't know" or "I don't really worry about it" or "there is, but we don't know anything about it, and religion just serves to segregate people." (My own mom, she's Indian, the name of the tribe I can't even spell, but she says that according to her beliefs, God is nature and nature is God. That sounded good to me for the longest time, but figured there's more to it than that.) I had never met anyone like my husband who is angry about the whole idea of God.<p>So shortly after we started dating, I tried to break it off. I really really liked him, he was the most accomplished man I had ever met and he had many great qualities. But I couldn't see it working. I was a stupid young girl, but even I could think somewhat realistically then. What happened? I guess we couldn't stay away from each other, there was a strong attraction. And we eventually married. However, since religion was such a volitile issue, we never reached a conclusion about it. Because we couldn't discuss it without fighting and crying. And we neglected to talk about it for that reason.<p>I personally resolved to practice my religion and leave him out of it. I was really struggling at the time, so I cannot say I was strong in my religion during our courtship and the early years of our marriage (faith without works, so to speak) I went to church alone and he went to the gym or did his martial arts or whatever. My Bible was in the nightstand and I read it when I was alone. We did not even watch movies that had any religious content, although I myself find that religions and the cultures that go with them are very interesting and facinating. Yes, other relgions, I am open-minded and I would like to think of myself as non-judgemental when it comes to personal beliefs.<p>Once, right after we were first married, for the sake of decoration, I put a picture of Jesus up on the wall. My husband was enraged and told me to remove it. I did. . .after a humongous fight. I told him that it was just a picture, and if it didn't have any meaning to him, then he shouldn't worry about it. He said it was offensive. I asked "Why? Can't you just pretend it's just someone else? It doesn't have to be Jesus. . .it's just a guy with a beard in a robe if you want it to be, you are just choosing to be offended." He told me that if he put pornography on the wall, I would be offended. Well, he had me there--but he got pissed and I got pissed and it lead to me yanking the picture of the wall and throwing it out into the driveway (I was pretty tempermental back then.)<p>See, my friend upstairs has a couch-length Disney print, one of those expensive ones, of Snow White and the 7 Dwarves hanging front and center in her apartment. When I go to her house, I am not really distressed as to whether Snow White actually exists. I am pretty sure that she doesn't, but I don't loose sleep over the fact that Snow White is displayed. Granted, I don't live in her house and I, myself, would not have choosen the same art to display having much different tastes in decor. However, I am not so offended that I demand that the picture comes off the wall if I am to be in her home. That is my arguement about the whole thing--why does it have to be a big deal? (I think that Atheism is sometimes as much born of emotionalism as religion.)<p>Shortly after we reunited (after his affair, and yes, his nasty girlfriend claimed to be a Christian and slammed on me because I am of the wrong sect of Christianity) I figured he had toned down a little. So I pulled the same faux pas. During our year living apart, religion had been very comforting and very important to me. The things I learned helped me grow stronger and more resolute. The horror that I had been through served to strengthen my faith. So anyways, a decoration in my sparse little apartment was a small but beautiful print of Christ, standing in a courtyard watching some birds on a budding tree branch. When I tried to add this art to the decor of our home here in Japan, my husband once again went crazy. He insisted that I am trying to force my beliefs on him, and that I am selfish, and that I am pig headed for not budging on this issue. Okay, my picture is under the couch now. It's a shame, because it really is pretty. I don't know why HE won't budge on it!!!<p>I think that my beliefs are simple--this is a world created by God, a gift to us, and the even greater gift he gave to us with it was our freedom, the ability to choose between good and evil, to choose what we want and where we go, to excercise our talants and opportunities as we please. I believe that this life is a part of our progression to something better. I also believe that we didn't start out here, either. We had a life with our God before we came here. This life is a test, an opportunity to make what we can with what we have been given. Some people will get further than others here, but that's cool. . .because this mortal life is not the end. I also believe in Christ as a mediator--it took me a lot of years to actually believe in Christ, even though I thought the basic principle of a "higher power" was a good idea.<p>I believe in science, physical science, genetic science, medical science, and I seek to understand all these things. I really and truly think that you do not believe in God unless you try to understand the world you live in--science. I believe in hard work, that is the method that "mirracles" occur. I also believe that if you follow Christianity as outlined in the New Testement, you will be charitable and kind and forgiving to all people, because you are not the ultimate judge of other people, or else you are not for real. Makes sense to me.<p>But obviously my beliefs don't make sense to everyone, my husband included. All I have ever asked of him is to meet me halfway--if he would go to a church picnic to play football (they might bless the food, but that's it) or participate in Christmas carols or at least let me put my picture on the wall--I would be content. But he has yet to learn the fine art of compromise. If I assert myself on an issue, then I am "being selfish," even if I give in eventually. (Which I do 99% of the time.)<p>Bottom line--at least try to meet her halfway and TALK about this. Tell her specifically what you'll do and where you'll go with her. Tell her that your beliefs are your own, and promise to be open-minded, but for now, what you believe is your own personal conviction until you find out more on your own. But talk--you don't have to be baptized and carry a bible with you, but communicate with her that you will be open-minded if she will. SHE has to meet you half-way, as well. You might want to seek a nuetral source of counseling to help you out-line these boundaries.<p>Good luck--Mary<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: Bernzini ]</p>

Boy, you have a big problem. If your GF reads the Bible and believes in it (being Pentacostal-they generally do) then the Bible warns against being unequally yoked with non-believers. Its very difficult. So, in order for the relationship to really work even on a spiritual level, you would either have to convert to Christianity, read the Bible and believe, or she would have to recind her beliefs and be pulled away from them. Probably would be lots of guilt involved and a painful path. Not to say it hasn't been done and you could be converted down the road. There will just be alot of pain along the way. Sorry. Seeing as we don't live in an idealistic world though, many people just ignore the problem of "religion" until it becomes an "issue" sometimes when they are already married. Its real positive that you are exploring the ramifications of both of your beliefs before jumping into marriage. Also being married, will it be done in front of a judge or a minister? Supposably, how and where you get married is a statement/testament to the world of where you are from and what you believe in, and the direction you are going.
Don't take me wrong here, there is no personal judgement on my part to either one of you....just an observation..
Mikkey

This is serious! God created marriage so that spiritual unity is essential to achieve full intimacy. The primary goal of marriage is to become more intimate with this one person than anyone else on earth. If you marry, it will be constant frustration of never being able to be fully intimate! I've been in a marriage where intimacy can't be achieved, and it is horrible. <p>My parents are Pentacostal. Their Bible specifically tells them to not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. If she married you, she would be in violation of her own Bible and conscience.
She would be miserable, and in turn so would you.
Don't trap yourselves in that situation.<p>The Pentacostal form of Christianity is lived from the heart, not just a set of "mental" religious beliefs. Most Pentacostals would not be happy in any other type of church. Their whole manner of living, feeling, and making decisions is rooted in their personal relationship with God whose spirit lives within their hearts. This is entirely different from the lifestyle of an of an atheist. If you marry her, you will likely be butting heads and hurting hearts constantly. <p>My advice is to keep it at the friendship level only! If you can't do that, part ways.

First off, HNY! to all!<p>My first two marriages were to a woman of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint faith. I had grown up in a home where my brother and I were allowed to question at all times. Ihad gone to church in my youth, but when at a revival, a visiting preacher had declared that drinking a coke was a sin....well....I didn't go back. This though led to me researchig and coming to my own conclusions about religion and God. My ex wife tried to get me to go on many occassions, but I politely declined. It was actually my time to watch my movie on tv, while I caught up all the dirty dishes, and washed the six loads of laundry that needed to be done from the week before, so it was not a wasted time....<p>Corinthians teaches that if two people are different in their religious views, yet they want to be together, then be together, but don't get after the other person.<p>My current wife persuaded me to go with her to church and I have found it to be a very nice, and calming event I look forward to every week. I am debating becoming a member....but she has been understanding of my reasons for not jumping in...<p>My point in all of this is that there is some excellent advice here....DON"T throw away a good relationship over something like this....<p>just my two cents

It's not often that I disagree with FreddyB but I have to here. Our beliefs in God and how the universe works is the very fundament of us...a Christian could never be happy with a non-believer, imo, if either is fervent in their convictions. And each will want any children raised according to their own beliefs. Being very religious, she feels that she will be responsible for the souls of any children she has and to her that will mean raising them in her beliefs.<p>I'm not saying you can't have a happy, successful relationship but it will be very hard. Imagine a lion living with a giraffe...two very different species and each of them is convinced their way is the right way. It's something to give a long hard think to.

Dallas;<p>No offense taken...I was just quoting scripture...which I so rarely get to do....The message that Paul wrote tot he Corinthians was that if you have a couple that is unequally yoked...and they are HAPPY to be together, then it is possible for a relationship to work....I have met people throughout my life that come from homes that are unequal (Mormon+Jew, Catholic+Christian...to name a few...) In my case, as you can see from what I said...it definetly did not work. The point was, it depended on the couples commitment to each other.....I was listening to the talk radio today as I had a rare day to drive and be by myself...I was listening to a couple that was poised to divorce over some little thing because they had come to a point where they simply could not set down and talk to each other anymore...I hope these two people, will at least sit down and open their hearts and have an honest discussion, not just throw insults or put up barriers...

I have to agree with Freddy--my husband and I are working on this, and we are doing well. It may just take a whole lifetime to meet in the middle. But I am content. Trust me, I am in no way advocating that people of different religions just thoughtlessly and bullheadly plow into a relationship together. 99% of the time, it will absolutely not work if both people are insistant that they are correct and each experiences turmoil because of the other's resolutions to worship (or not worship) as he sees fit. (In college, I dated a young Palestinian man who was unbudgingly Islamic, which I respected but honestly could not follow. I could see, however, that his beliefs did not particulaly regulate his moral compass as he was quite a rotten bast**d. He pestered me about my relgion constantly. Needless to say, it was a disaster.)<p>I know that a lot of people would not be content at all. Most of the people that I go to church with would not be strong enough to be in my situation, just being honest here. They are lucky enough to find companions that mirror their beliefs. My friends all "feel sorry for me" because I go to church alone. I take a moment to bless my food while my husband picks up his fork. But, you know what? I think that I have planted a seed that is beginning to open his mind. I know I have. I try to be a stalwart example to him, rather than force my ideolgies on him. I try to live my life well so that he will see what living a life focused on Christ can do for you.<p>As for the kid, I take him to church, and my husband has no problem with it. Go figure. When my son goes on and on about how Jesus was born on Christmas day, ect, my husband says "Yup, that's right." When my son wants to have a prayer before betime, my husband will say "Go on ahead then." My son has asked my husband why he doesn't "believe in Jesus," and my husband says "I just don't think it's important to." My son tells me the reason that his dad doesn't believe in Jesus is because he doesn't remember him like he does. (Something that has really strengthened my belief in a spiritual life is that my son, when he was littler, would go on and on about his "world" before he came to live with mom and dad, where his Grandpa was. He doesn't talk about it so much anymore.)<p>So, anyways, I do think, in rare cases, that a couple with different beliefs really can mesh. It takes a lot of love and a lot of tolerance. Biting your tongue when it comes to disrespectful judgements is important--you have to be honest about how you feel, but leave it at that. You cannot change someone's deep-seated emotional beliefs simply by chanting scripture or singing hymns at them. You have to live as a positive example of what you really believe.<p>Think of all the Christians that have become Atheists--did knowing all the scripture in the Bible save them from leaving a Christian life? No. It's because something in Christianity was not working for them--you as a Christian have to prove that a life modeled after Christ's example--charity, honesty, sacrifice for love, fidelity, hard work, respect for self and others, gentleness, tolerance, patience--is the best route to follow to be happy. See, religion CAN be proved. . .<p>As Dr Phil says (In regards to choosing between your family or your lover, but I think this applies to everything in life) "DO what is right, and then the emotions will follow." How true this is.<p>The Apostle Paul did say, and I don't have my Bible open, but something to the effect "If the non-believer wants to go, let him. If he wants to stay, let him." If your loved one is not interested in religion because it does nothing for him and brings him no happiness, so be it. You are the missionary--live your life as an example on how it works for you and brings YOU happiness.<p>Remember tolerance, if you truly love someone, you will be tolerant. I had a good friend who was an Atheist. She had had a hard life--abandoned by her mother, raised by her father more or less, in a difficult environment. I couldn't blame her for feeling the way she did. She was very bitter about some things. She was, however, happily in love with and married a Catholic man. I remember one day, she was proudly showing me the nursery that she had decorated for their soon to be born son. I noted that over the crib was a rosary, and I asked her about it. She told me that it was a prized posession of her husband, that the rosary had been blessed by the Pope himself, and that it was important to her husband that it be in the place that it was. (She said this with a roll of her eyes and a wrinkled nose, nevertheless.) That impression stuck with me, that she would do this for her husband and baby.<p>If something is important to someone you love, then it should be important to you, too. If you don't agree with it, say so. Try to meet in the middle, try very very hard to meet in the middle. If it causes no harm to you to agree to something that you don't like, then do. Tolerance. After all, do you want to be married, or do you want to be "right" all the time?

I believe that if ones faith is allowed to create a feeling of elevation or superiority or status for a person then it becomes destructive to any relationship. If however, ones faith is used to guide and discern ones own positions and actions then it can be of little harm or concern.
That's obviosly stating it rather simply and there will always be conflict between people who believe different things. Working with these difference can be done in the same manner as others differences as long as one or the other doesn't claim the high road.
My wife and I have significant differences in our faith. I believe that it has had little to do with our difficulties. In fact, I would go so far as to say that our success and healthy approach and respect for each others religious differences has been one of our triumphs.
Beware of the trap of trying to improve other people. Improve youself, if they see something they like and follow you all it means is that they are similar to you. I believe that God (that's the name i use) is HUGE. Way bigger than any of our individual concepts. For all i know, even the athiests are right. <smile> We can all learn from each other.<p>Good luck.

Well, darn! Now I DO agree with freddy---<p>Hold on, pulling hoof out of mouth. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Hey,

Stupid me, I don't know how to copy a link, so I am opening this thread back up to help with the discussion on religious differences.