My wife and I have been in a troubled marriage for years now. For some time (more than two years) a main complaint I've had with the relationship is her sense of priority towards it. She simply doesn't make "quality time" for us to re-build what we've broken and make it better. We've done the negotiation/compromise thing and I have received promises from her that our relationship will be a bigger priority to her. But she never really changes anything. <p>Finally I "forced" the issue. And I'm stunned! I asked her what she thought I wanted and why it wasn't happening (BTW, I've asked this question many times before). She said that she wanted to give me "all those things" but "just couldn't be perfect enough" because of her job, the kids, the laundry, etc. "I give you every free minute I get!"<p>I guess I've made an incorrect assumption that making our relationship a "bigger priority" means putting it first some of the time. Now I am not asking for or expecting every free minute or perfection; I'd just really like to know that she cares for more than the ring on the finger and the checking account. The main point is I'm not getting what I expect and have been promised and she can't or won't see that. She disagrees on this, but offers nothing positive that we can work from.<p>How can I deal with this woman??? Help!!!! I'm going crazy!

Often when people say something is important to them, but they don't get to it, it is a fear of being imperfect. Sometimes, it's an unconscious way of keeping distance. Sometimes its just bad habits.<p>Regardless, it takes both a commitment to work at it, and a plan to keep you both on track. The MB plan and q'aires are a good place to start.<p>www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8114_plan.html<p>www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4500_resource.html<p>Once you have identified each partners most important emotional needs, the next step is for each of you to come up with a very specific list of ways your partner could meet each of the top 3-5 needs (ie, not just "make time for the relationship, but "go out on a date 2 times a month, we can take turns picking what to do"...not just "make love more often" but "make love 3 times a week", etc. <p>You each agree to work on doing those very specific, quantifiable things for the other. After a couple of weeks, you go thru the lists and readjust if need be. It seems mechanical at first, but it does help build new habits.<p>Good luck.<p>Kathi<p>[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</p>

First of all, thanks for taking the time and consideration to reply to my post.<p>Unfortunately, we have tried the "needs" and "plan" approach. It's interesting that you noted setting clear goals because that's what I've attempted to do. But my wife detests "keeping score". It like she simply wants me to shut up and the problem will go away. She doesn't "work" on the relationship then gets defensive and chooses to attack whenever she's held accountable the the plan. (Interesting is that she does agree that I've kept my part of the plan. We disagree as to her keeping her side of it).<p>
Truth is I am lonely, bitter, hurt and at my wits end.

Hi,
i can understand where u are coming from!! i a'm some what in the same boat u are as far as trying to get my spouse to open up and be honest to me. i really don't know what to say except that if u take your problems to GOD he can give u peace about it, which i know through experence he will. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] not to say we all don't need some people to talk to about our problems, that sure helps. i thank god for these websites we all can come to. have u tried talking to your wife about councleing? if u have and she won't go maybe u might think about going yourself to learn how to cope with all that is going on in your marrige. hope this helps.
Cathy [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Sounds like she needs help with the house and kids so she can devote time to you-good luck

It has been my experience that no matter how much of the stresses of her life that you relieve, the priorities will not change. The stressors and busy factors and the excuses, not the cause. If someone knows what the cause is, let me know. I don't know the cause, but I can tell you that killing yourself to reduce all of the things that are claimed as impediments only results in an entirely new set of impediments.

Jake, Boy do I hear you. I am in the exact same position. I have attempted to fix this over the past two years to no avail. I rage, something I never did before, which complicates the communication big time. My wife refuses to talk about it, and blames me for her lack of libido/desire--which she has yet to admit. I am bout to give up. Her priorities (kids 11, 16) are unbudgable. Our sex life was bad since the 11 year old was born. This child slept in our bed due to ADHA problems until she was 9. I resented it, but had no other solution--nightmares etc.One year we made love only once. I am at wits end, as she pushes my rage buttons everytime I broach the subject. I moved into the spare bedroom and this seems to not bother her. Yes, I believe she really loves me, however, she will not commit to sex.

Thanks for all the replys. Wish I had good things to report, but I don't.<p>Boy, where do I begin. I've tried to negotiate with her with NO SUCCESS. It's now painfully clear to me that she just does not care for me. I asked her what she wanted going forward. Here's the list she rattled off (after three nights of waiting):<p>1. Time for herself.
2. Help me out around the house more.
3. Understand that I've tried.
4. Let's spend our time together focusing on the family.<p>Yes, I went into a "rage"! Here I am trying to rebuild a broken marriage and she wants this! This is HER PRIORITIES! Friends let me note a few things about her "list" that I've omitted previously so I could get better focus on your good inputs. I'll rebutt item 1 thru 4:<p>1. The last time she had time for herself she cheated on me. Not with one man, not two, but six! I asked her to take the intiative for us to go out alone at least once per month as a way of showing me she wanted to be with ME! We went out on our anniversary in August and my birthday in December. That's been it. I decided to make it happen after Christmas. During the holidays and into January I asked her out 12 times. She accepted 6 of those, but only kept 1 of the dates. Something always came up.....like "Oh, I forgot and laid out meat to cook", or "Jennifer called and needs help with her sewing machine", or (my favorite) "I'm too tired" (but not too tired to stop by the mall on the way home). And, by the way, SHE JUST QUIT HER JOB LAST WEEK!
2. I've got allergies and can't clean or I'm sick! Get it......sick.....as in home in the bed away from work.....no money!
3. Tried! She's has, but on what? She has not done what she promised me she would do, fights with me about the details and just throws salt on open wounds. Frankly she just wants me to accept whatever she sees fit to give me without any consideration for whether it rebuilds the marriage or not. Now she wants to focus of "what's achievable".
4. The family.....hey I agree, but let's start with the marriage! I CANNOT GET HER UNDIVIDED ATTENTION!<p>By the way, here's what I asked her for previously:<p>A. Make me a bigger priority. Give me undivided attention on at least two occasions per week to ask "what's working/what's not". Make a date with me at least once per month so we can go out. Vacation or take a long weekend with me at least twice per year.
B. Ignite passion. Show me you want me. (I don't have to spell it out, okay).
C. Be sensitive to the hurt that's present. Understand that words mean things and put yourself in my shoes. Don't react negatively, react with compassion and learn from our mistakes so they're not repeated.<p>She's let me down on each of these. I'm at my wits end. We can't talk without fighting and she will not negotiate in good faith with me.<p>How can you deal with a spouse that doesn't want to deal???<p>Help me, please! I am losing my mind, my marriage and my children. And I don't want any of this!!!!!

Her list is very "impersonal" items...quite typical of someone who has emotionally withdrawn from the relationship.<p>However, 6 other guys!?!?!?!? This makes me wonder if the problem truly is with the relationship, or with her.<p>I'm sure she is not inetersted in counseling, but have you considered doing a few sessions yourself to explore what the chances are for this marriage and what, if anything you could do?

Jake said:<p>She's let me down on each of these. I'm at my wits end. We can't talk without fighting and she will not negotiate in good faith with me.<p>How can you deal with a spouse that doesn't want to deal???<p>Help me, please! I am losing my mind, my marriage and my children. And I don't want any of this!!!!! <p>************************************************<p>Jake, <p>She is telling you what her priorities are through her actions. I learned a long time ago that people do WHAT THEY WANT. If someone tells you one thing and does another, regardless of the excuse, they DID EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED TO. Your W doesn't want you right now, but doesn't want to tell you that. She is telling you through her actions.<p>Are you absolutely sure about 6 guys? That seems extreme. Maybe there has been something that occurred to cause some emotional disturbance?

Jake, other than the 6 men, I can identify with your plight down to the requests you made. I am also very angry, which I never was before. I hate to admit it, but SPT__FL is right. My two years of active work (46 relation books read) has done nothing. Of coursr my fruustration and rages probably set me back. SPT__FL, actions do speak louder than words. I also think my wife is in the midst of menapause. HELP me understand this. When ever I bring up the subject, my wife has this hurt look on her face, but eventually pushes my rage buttons and ends up telling me to go away or she walks away...this leads to days with no conversation. I am still sleeping in the spare bedroom. Thanks SPT__FL, please give me some strategies for communicating with her. I will tell you now, I probably have tried them all. Thanks

I have dealt with this sort of thing for a long time and I have never found an easy answer. Let's assume that like me, you are the person who tries to do everything right. You were trying to meet her needs well before you even heard of an EN, right? Maybe she tells you what she wants or worse, you are left to guess, but regardless, you worked at it until you found out. What happened then? Were you rewarded for your efforts? No, your efforts were counterproductive. The more you did, the less she did. She may even have withdrawn as you advanced. If that is your situation, then I have found only one thing that might and I stress MIGHT work and it is risky. When I reached the point that I tried this, I had nothing to lose anyway, but you may not be in that boat. <p>Walk away from her. Do none of the things that you do to be nice. Don't be mean or rude, just don't care at all. If you have buddies that have always wanted you to go out with them, but you wanted to be with your W instead, start going out with them. Michelle Davis Weiner calls it a 180. Whatever that you have been doing that doesn't work, do the opposite. I don't recommend being nasty in any way, but rather, be very polite and considerate. Just stop doing anything for her at all.<p>Sometimes you have to risk it all, to gain it all. The idea here is that as you withdraw, she must advance. As you stop doing things, she must do them. As you spend time away, the time that is available to be with you must rise in value.<p>I would recommend that if you are going to follow this path that you must be very careful to adjust according to your W. She may simply not care. Initially, she won't even notice. Eventually, she will or she won't. Eventually, she will change the way that she responds to you or she won't, but to be honest, do you really feel that you have any option? <p>You have to change the dynamics of the dance and that isn't going to be easy. You are used to doing what you are doing and so is she. It is the only thing that I have ever seen work. <p>Again, take my advice with much salt. I am no expert. I would hate to find out you tried this too hard and looked up and found yourself in divorce court. Maybe you could try distancing just a little for awhile and see if there is any response. Let me know one way or the other if it has any effect at all.

BoutToGiveUp,<p>Menopause, depression, ill tempered, bad parents, poor self esteem, whatever. It is all the same. Those are just the excuses to cover the cause; the cause is that who cares why, she just doesn't want to.<p>I focused on the why for a LONG time to find no answers. In the end, who cares what the why is. <p>In the end, you have to change what is important to her. She has priorities and you aren't one of them. That's what you have to change. If you can't change that, you might as well change your zip code.<p>As cold as all of this sounds, I honestly believe that it is like the law of supply and demand. Right now, your W has all that she wants of you and more. The law of supply and demand (lsd) indicates that the things that she has from you are therefore, less valuable. If the law holds then, if you reduce the supply, the value rises.<p>What are the dynamics of your relationship? Every little thing she gives you is of immense value to you, but not enough. Every giant thing you give her is instantly worthless. You have to change that.<p>Are you home EVERY night being the wonderful doting husband? Start exercising away from home, but not at a gym (too many temptations there). Is money tight? Go get a second job for a few months. Take a hard look at what you do that she undervalues and then stop doing it.<p>If you are anything like me, you do everything that women say they want and then some, right? Doesn't work. That is almost automatically taken for granted. Worse yet, should you divorce your W and move on, the next R will suffer the exact same pattern in short order. Ask me how I know that!<p>I really do hope you can change all of this. I know just how frustrating it is. Worse, I know that it makes you hate your W and that isn't fair, because she is only responding to the dynamics that we are creating. That's why the dynamics move from R to R. I have met my worse enemy and he is me.

Well guys, Im going to get in on this to try & shead some light...most women, want to be loved, the way THEY want to be loved , which nine times out of ten,is NOT the way YOU think they want to be loved. In other words,you may be doing a hundred things a day to try & show your love for your W but none of them mean squat to her..but the things that do matter to her, your missing by a long shot...Why not try asking your wife something like "what makes you feel most loved?"or "how do you want me to love you?" if shes not already in the arms of someone else who's fulfilling these needs , because you werent...(sorry just trying to be honest)this is a good place to start...Take care...

Well guys, sometimes it takes a real man to admit when he's wrong. And I am wrong. I should have left this woman a long time ago!<p>I have attempted to give it "one more college try" and here are my conclusions after talking with my wife:<p>1. She does not love me. In fact, I doubt she loves anyone.
2. She has no intention of ever keeping the promises she has made to me. She simply holds no value for these things.
3. The problems between us will most likely get worse, not better.
4. She will hurt me again (if I let her).<p>I believe in and have tried to reach a WIN/WIN with her. But she is strictly a WIN/LOSE person. So, from my perspective we now have NO DEAL. I have therefore decided to do the following:<p>1. Put space between her and myself. So what if she doesn't want to spend time with me? I'll not depend on her.....I'll do my own thing.
2. Control of the household income is now squarely in my hands. Besides I'm the only one working now anyway.
3. My center will be my kids. I'll not abandon them!
4. She "draws strength from knowing she can still hurt me"......never again will she know. Yes, I can bear bottling up my emotions with her; look at what I've already withstood.
5. I've already been to a lawyer. But in my state it's a 50/50 split. Maybe someday that'll look like a bargain. Until then she has to come to value the relationship she has destroyed. Right now she doesn't. One more screw-up, one more "other man", and it's a bargain!<p>Is this the right thing to do?
Any pointers on how to withstand this?<p>
Thanks!

Jake,<p>I must say that your situation certainly seems hopeless. Sometimes, after years of dysfunction in a marriage, the attempts to make things "right" are met with anger (rage, as you call it), distrust and despair. My question to you concerning your wife, is whether or not you know of any past childhood abuse, be it sexual, emotional or physical. If she has had 6 affairs during your marriage, childhood abuse is many times the culprit. Those of us that have been abused continually fight with self-esteem problems and issues of attention and affection deficits. You may very well (and it certainly sounds like it!) be trying everything you know to show her all the nurturing love and attention you know how, but until she deals with her lack of love for herself, whatever you do will never be enough. This may be the case with you, I don't know, but I thought it worth mentions. God Bless you and I wish you the best....for your sake and the sake of your children. They need both of their parents running on all cylinders! :}<p>~Caran

Jake,<p>I think that the plan that you outlined on your previous post is pretty much all you can do. You cannot control your W and you can't change her priorities. All you can change is how you enable her to act the way she does. I have come to the conclusion that because we do give as much as we do, that we really create the conditions that make this happen. I wish I knew what that was and if you figure it out, let me know.<p>I can say that when I withdrew, she had to follow in order to keep up with me. I would suggest a second job. I have found that that cuts the amount of time that you have available, increases income and decreases the amount of energy you have to devote to the R. If your W wants the M, she will have to work harder to catch up.<p>On the other hand, she could also do nothing or withdraw herself. You can't control that anyway.<p>In the end, it is simply a matter that you aren't high enough on the priority list. Do what she does....if she asks you on a date or something, agree to half and actually do less than that.<p>I would love to hear how any of this goes, since I have long been in a similar situation.<p>Good luck.

Bout to give up,
You mentioned an adhd daughter...is your wife adhd by chance? on medication? I'm an adhd wife also suffering from depression...I'm on concerta and wellbutrin and am 100% better...so much happier. Yes, I still have my moments, but all in all the combination really works for me(I've been on the combination for 5+ years.)Wellbutrin, unlike other anti-depressants, doesn't negatively impact libido and ability to have an orgasim, infact, I think it improved my sex drive. Anyway, it's just a thought. Depression, is a strange illness...but treatable.

My friend she cheated on you with six other men that you know of. It is clear that she is able to have affairs whenever she wishes. In addition, I would bet that she is not practicing safe sex and putting your health at risk also. I think you need to move away from her as quickly as possible before she totally destroys you. Why do you wish to be with a person who has no respect for you and continues to humiliate you? I wish you luck because you need it.

Well, well, well. Here I am again, crazier than ever.<p>Two things to bring up anew in my situation:<p>1. I'm holding out pretty strong (on the surface at least, inside I'm a mess). Simply put: this is the hardest thing I've ever done. Guys & Gals, I'm afraid that I may be feeling numb or starting to care less and less about my wife.<p>2. My wife is a roller coaster of emotion. One minute she seems crushed by what I'm doing (i.e., no fight = no care), next she appears happy in her solitude, then she snaps off at me, the kids or someone else. I don't believe she is "mental", but I'm starting to suspect a drug addiction of some kind (perhaps diet/weight loss pills or maybe downers). I've approached her with my concern, but she "doesn't have a problem" (never does either).<p>She acknowledges she's done wrong but seems powerless to do anything about it. She is completely non-proactive, unfocused, and cold. The same way I am becoming. Don't know how long it last like this!<p>Oh, the things I have given up!!!!!!