My wife and I have been in a troubled marriage for years now. For some time (more than two years) a main complaint I've had with the relationship is her sense of priority towards it. She simply doesn't make "quality time" for us to re-build what we've broken and make it better. We've done the negotiation/compromise thing and I have received promises from her that our relationship will be a bigger priority to her. But she never really changes anything. <p>Finally I "forced" the issue. And I'm stunned! I asked her what she thought I wanted and why it wasn't happening (BTW, I've asked this question many times before). She said that she wanted to give me "all those things" but "just couldn't be perfect enough" because of her job, the kids, the laundry, etc. "I give you every free minute I get!"<p>I guess I've made an incorrect assumption that making our relationship a "bigger priority" means putting it first some of the time. Now I am not asking for or expecting every free minute or perfection; I'd just really like to know that she cares for more than the ring on the finger and the checking account. The main point is I'm not getting what I expect and have been promised and she can't or won't see that. She disagrees on this, but offers nothing positive that we can work from.<p>How can I deal with this woman??? Help!!!! I'm going crazy!

Often when people say something is important to them, but they don't get to it, it is a fear of being imperfect. Sometimes, it's an unconscious way of keeping distance. Sometimes its just bad habits.<p>Regardless, it takes both a commitment to work at it, and a plan to keep you both on track. The MB plan and q'aires are a good place to start.<p>www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8114_plan.html<p>www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4500_resource.html<p>Once you have identified each partners most important emotional needs, the next step is for each of you to come up with a very specific list of ways your partner could meet each of the top 3-5 needs (ie, not just "make time for the relationship, but "go out on a date 2 times a month, we can take turns picking what to do"...not just "make love more often" but "make love 3 times a week", etc. <p>You each agree to work on doing those very specific, quantifiable things for the other. After a couple of weeks, you go thru the lists and readjust if need be. It seems mechanical at first, but it does help build new habits.<p>Good luck.<p>Kathi<p>[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</p>

First of all, thanks for taking the time and consideration to reply to my post.<p>Unfortunately, we have tried the "needs" and "plan" approach. It's interesting that you noted setting clear goals because that's what I've attempted to do. But my wife detests "keeping score". It like she simply wants me to shut up and the problem will go away. She doesn't "work" on the relationship then gets defensive and chooses to attack whenever she's held accountable the the plan. (Interesting is that she does agree that I've kept my part of the plan. We disagree as to her keeping her side of it).<p>
Truth is I am lonely, bitter, hurt and at my wits end.

Hi,
i can understand where u are coming from!! i a'm some what in the same boat u are as far as trying to get my spouse to open up and be honest to me. i really don't know what to say except that if u take your problems to GOD he can give u peace about it, which i know through experence he will. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] not to say we all don't need some people to talk to about our problems, that sure helps. i thank god for these websites we all can come to. have u tried talking to your wife about councleing? if u have and she won't go maybe u might think about going yourself to learn how to cope with all that is going on in your marrige. hope this helps.
Cathy [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Sounds like she needs help with the house and kids so she can devote time to you-good luck

It has been my experience that no matter how much of the stresses of her life that you relieve, the priorities will not change. The stressors and busy factors and the excuses, not the cause. If someone knows what the cause is, let me know. I don't know the cause, but I can tell you that killing yourself to reduce all of the things that are claimed as impediments only results in an entirely new set of impediments.

Jake, Boy do I hear you. I am in the exact same position. I have attempted to fix this over the past two years to no avail. I rage, something I never did before, which complicates the communication big time. My wife refuses to talk about it, and blames me for her lack of libido/desire--which she has yet to admit. I am bout to give up. Her priorities (kids 11, 16) are unbudgable. Our sex life was bad since the 11 year old was born. This child slept in our bed due to ADHA problems until she was 9. I resented it, but had no other solution--nightmares etc.One year we made love only once. I am at wits end, as she pushes my rage buttons everytime I broach the subject. I moved into the spare bedroom and this seems to not bother her. Yes, I believe she really loves me, however, she will not commit to sex.

Thanks for all the replys. Wish I had good things to report, but I don't.<p>Boy, where do I begin. I've tried to negotiate with her with NO SUCCESS. It's now painfully clear to me that she just does not care for me. I asked her what she wanted going forward. Here's the list she rattled off (after three nights of waiting):<p>1. Time for herself.
2. Help me out around the house more.
3. Understand that I've tried.
4. Let's spend our time together focusing on the family.<p>Yes, I went into a "rage"! Here I am trying to rebuild a broken marriage and she wants this! This is HER PRIORITIES! Friends let me note a few things about her "list" that I've omitted previously so I could get better focus on your good inputs. I'll rebutt item 1 thru 4:<p>1. The last time she had time for herself she cheated on me. Not with one man, not two, but six! I asked her to take the intiative for us to go out alone at least once per month as a way of showing me she wanted to be with ME! We went out on our anniversary in August and my birthday in December. That's been it. I decided to make it happen after Christmas. During the holidays and into January I asked her out 12 times. She accepted 6 of those, but only kept 1 of the dates. Something always came up.....like "Oh, I forgot and laid out meat to cook", or "Jennifer called and needs help with her sewing machine", or (my favorite) "I'm too tired" (but not too tired to stop by the mall on the way home). And, by the way, SHE JUST QUIT HER JOB LAST WEEK!
2. I've got allergies and can't clean or I'm sick! Get it......sick.....as in home in the bed away from work.....no money!
3. Tried! She's has, but on what? She has not done what she promised me she would do, fights with me about the details and just throws salt on open wounds. Frankly she just wants me to accept whatever she sees fit to give me without any consideration for whether it rebuilds the marriage or not. Now she wants to focus of "what's achievable".
4. The family.....hey I agree, but let's start with the marriage! I CANNOT GET HER UNDIVIDED ATTENTION!<p>By the way, here's what I asked her for previously:<p>A. Make me a bigger priority. Give me undivided attention on at least two occasions per week to ask "what's working/what's not". Make a date with me at least once per month so we can go out. Vacation or take a long weekend with me at least twice per year.
B. Ignite passion. Show me you want me. (I don't have to spell it out, okay).
C. Be sensitive to the hurt that's present. Understand that words mean things and put yourself in my shoes. Don't react negatively, react with compassion and learn from our mistakes so they're not repeated.<p>She's let me down on each of these. I'm at my wits end. We can't talk without fighting and she will not negotiate in good faith with me.<p>How can you deal with a spouse that doesn't want to deal???<p>Help me, please! I am losing my mind, my marriage and my children. And I don't want any of this!!!!!

Her list is very "impersonal" items...quite typical of someone who has emotionally withdrawn from the relationship.<p>However, 6 other guys!?!?!?!? This makes me wonder if the problem truly is with the relationship, or with her.<p>I'm sure she is not inetersted in counseling, but have you considered doing a few sessions yourself to explore what the chances are for this marriage and what, if anything you could do?

Jake said:<p>She's let me down on each of these. I'm at my wits end. We can't talk without fighting and she will not negotiate in good faith with me.<p>How can you deal with a spouse that doesn't want to deal???<p>Help me, please! I am losing my mind, my marriage and my children. And I don't want any of this!!!!! <p>************************************************<p>Jake, <p>She is telling you what her priorities are through her actions. I learned a long time ago that people do WHAT THEY WANT. If someone tells you one thing and does another, regardless of the excuse, they DID EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED TO. Your W doesn't want you right now, but doesn't want to tell you that. She is telling you through her actions.<p>Are you absolutely sure about 6 guys? That seems extreme. Maybe there has been something that occurred to cause some emotional disturbance?

Jake, other than the 6 men, I can identify with your plight down to the requests you made. I am also very angry, which I never was before. I hate to admit it, but SPT__FL is right. My two years of active work (46 relation books read) has done nothing. Of coursr my fruustration and rages probably set me back. SPT__FL, actions do speak louder than words. I also think my wife is in the midst of menapause. HELP me understand this. When ever I bring up the subject, my wife has this hurt look on her face, but eventually pushes my rage buttons and ends up telling me to go away or she walks away...this leads to days with no conversation. I am still sleeping in the spare bedroom. Thanks SPT__FL, please give me some strategies for communicating with her. I will tell you now, I probably have tried them all. Thanks

I have dealt with this sort of thing for a long time and I have never found an easy answer. Let's assume that like me, you are the person who tries to do everything right. You were trying to meet her needs well before you even heard of an EN, right? Maybe she tells you what she wants or worse, you are left to guess, but regardless, you worked at it until you found out. What happened then? Were you rewarded for your efforts? No, your efforts were counterproductive. The more you did, the less she did. She may even have withdrawn as you advanced. If that is your situation, then I have found only one thing that might and I stress MIGHT work and it is risky. When I reached the point that I tried this, I had nothing to lose anyway, but you may not be in that boat. <p>Walk away from her. Do none of the things that you do to be nice. Don't be mean or rude, just don't care at all. If you have buddies that have always wanted you to go out with them, but you wanted to be with your W instead, start going out with them. Michelle Davis Weiner calls it a 180. Whatever that you have been doing that doesn't work, do the opposite. I don't recommend being nasty in any way, but rather, be very polite and considerate. Just stop doing anything for her at all.<p>Sometimes you have to risk it all, to gain it all. The idea here is that as you withdraw, she must advance. As you stop doing things, she must do them. As you spend time away, the time that is available to be with you must rise in value.<p>I would recommend that if you are going to follow this path that you must be very careful to adjust according to your W. She may simply not care. Initially, she won't even notice. Eventually, she will or she won't. Eventually, she will change the way that she responds to you or she won't, but to be honest, do you really feel that you have any option? <p>You have to change the dynamics of the dance and that isn't going to be easy. You are used to doing what you are doing and so is she. It is the only thing that I have ever seen work. <p>Again, take my advice with much salt. I am no expert. I would hate to find out you tried this too hard and looked up and found yourself in divorce court. Maybe you could try distancing just a little for awhile and see if there is any response. Let me know one way or the other if it has any effect at all.

BoutToGiveUp,<p>Menopause, depression, ill tempered, bad parents, poor self esteem, whatever. It is all the same. Those are just the excuses to cover the cause; the cause is that who cares why, she just doesn't want to.<p>I focused on the why for a LONG time to find no answers. In the end, who cares what the why is. <p>In the end, you have to change what is important to her. She has priorities and you aren't one of them. That's what you have to change. If you can't change that, you might as well change your zip code.<p>As cold as all of this sounds, I honestly believe that it is like the law of supply and demand. Right now, your W has all that she wants of you and more. The law of supply and demand (lsd) indicates that the things that she has from you are therefore, less valuable. If the law holds then, if you reduce the supply, the value rises.<p>What are the dynamics of your relationship? Every little thing she gives you is of immense value to you, but not enough. Every giant thing you give her is instantly worthless. You have to change that.<p>Are you home EVERY night being the wonderful doting husband? Start exercising away from home, but not at a gym (too many temptations there). Is money tight? Go get a second job for a few months. Take a hard look at what you do that she undervalues and then stop doing it.<p>If you are anything like me, you do everything that women say they want and then some, right? Doesn't work. That is almost automatically taken for granted. Worse yet, should you divorce your W and move on, the next R will suffer the exact same pattern in short order. Ask me how I know that!<p>I really do hope you can change all of this. I know just how frustrating it is. Worse, I know that it makes you hate your W and that isn't fair, because she is only responding to the dynamics that we are creating. That's why the dynamics move from R to R. I have met my worse enemy and he is me.

Well guys, Im going to get in on this to try & shead some light...most women, want to be loved, the way THEY want to be loved , which nine times out of ten,is NOT the way YOU think they want to be loved. In other words,you may be doing a hundred things a day to try & show your love for your W but none of them mean squat to her..but the things that do matter to her, your missing by a long shot...Why not try asking your wife something like "what makes you feel most loved?"or "how do you want me to love you?" if shes not already in the arms of someone else who's fulfilling these needs , because you werent...(sorry just trying to be honest)this is a good place to start...Take care...

Well guys, sometimes it takes a real man to admit when he's wrong. And I am wrong. I should have left this woman a long time ago!<p>I have attempted to give it "one more college try" and here are my conclusions after talking with my wife:<p>1. She does not love me. In fact, I doubt she loves anyone.
2. She has no intention of ever keeping the promises she has made to me. She simply holds no value for these things.
3. The problems between us will most likely get worse, not better.
4. She will hurt me again (if I let her).<p>I believe in and have tried to reach a WIN/WIN with her. But she is strictly a WIN/LOSE person. So, from my perspective we now have NO DEAL. I have therefore decided to do the following:<p>1. Put space between her and myself. So what if she doesn't want to spend time with me? I'll not depend on her.....I'll do my own thing.
2. Control of the household income is now squarely in my hands. Besides I'm the only one working now anyway.
3. My center will be my kids. I'll not abandon them!
4. She "draws strength from knowing she can still hurt me"......never again will she know. Yes, I can bear bottling up my emotions with her; look at what I've already withstood.
5. I've already been to a lawyer. But in my state it's a 50/50 split. Maybe someday that'll look like a bargain. Until then she has to come to value the relationship she has destroyed. Right now she doesn't. One more screw-up, one more "other man", and it's a bargain!<p>Is this the right thing to do?
Any pointers on how to withstand this?<p>
Thanks!

Jake,<p>I must say that your situation certainly seems hopeless. Sometimes, after years of dysfunction in a marriage, the attempts to make things "right" are met with anger (rage, as you call it), distrust and despair. My question to you concerning your wife, is whether or not you know of any past childhood abuse, be it sexual, emotional or physical. If she has had 6 affairs during your marriage, childhood abuse is many times the culprit. Those of us that have been abused continually fight with self-esteem problems and issues of attention and affection deficits. You may very well (and it certainly sounds like it!) be trying everything you know to show her all the nurturing love and attention you know how, but until she deals with her lack of love for herself, whatever you do will never be enough. This may be the case with you, I don't know, but I thought it worth mentions. God Bless you and I wish you the best....for your sake and the sake of your children. They need both of their parents running on all cylinders! :}<p>~Caran

Jake,<p>I think that the plan that you outlined on your previous post is pretty much all you can do. You cannot control your W and you can't change her priorities. All you can change is how you enable her to act the way she does. I have come to the conclusion that because we do give as much as we do, that we really create the conditions that make this happen. I wish I knew what that was and if you figure it out, let me know.<p>I can say that when I withdrew, she had to follow in order to keep up with me. I would suggest a second job. I have found that that cuts the amount of time that you have available, increases income and decreases the amount of energy you have to devote to the R. If your W wants the M, she will have to work harder to catch up.<p>On the other hand, she could also do nothing or withdraw herself. You can't control that anyway.<p>In the end, it is simply a matter that you aren't high enough on the priority list. Do what she does....if she asks you on a date or something, agree to half and actually do less than that.<p>I would love to hear how any of this goes, since I have long been in a similar situation.<p>Good luck.

Bout to give up,
You mentioned an adhd daughter...is your wife adhd by chance? on medication? I'm an adhd wife also suffering from depression...I'm on concerta and wellbutrin and am 100% better...so much happier. Yes, I still have my moments, but all in all the combination really works for me(I've been on the combination for 5+ years.)Wellbutrin, unlike other anti-depressants, doesn't negatively impact libido and ability to have an orgasim, infact, I think it improved my sex drive. Anyway, it's just a thought. Depression, is a strange illness...but treatable.

My friend she cheated on you with six other men that you know of. It is clear that she is able to have affairs whenever she wishes. In addition, I would bet that she is not practicing safe sex and putting your health at risk also. I think you need to move away from her as quickly as possible before she totally destroys you. Why do you wish to be with a person who has no respect for you and continues to humiliate you? I wish you luck because you need it.

Well, well, well. Here I am again, crazier than ever.<p>Two things to bring up anew in my situation:<p>1. I'm holding out pretty strong (on the surface at least, inside I'm a mess). Simply put: this is the hardest thing I've ever done. Guys & Gals, I'm afraid that I may be feeling numb or starting to care less and less about my wife.<p>2. My wife is a roller coaster of emotion. One minute she seems crushed by what I'm doing (i.e., no fight = no care), next she appears happy in her solitude, then she snaps off at me, the kids or someone else. I don't believe she is "mental", but I'm starting to suspect a drug addiction of some kind (perhaps diet/weight loss pills or maybe downers). I've approached her with my concern, but she "doesn't have a problem" (never does either).<p>She acknowledges she's done wrong but seems powerless to do anything about it. She is completely non-proactive, unfocused, and cold. The same way I am becoming. Don't know how long it last like this!<p>Oh, the things I have given up!!!!!!

I read your previous thread here...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000762

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Wow - minus the affairs you sound like my first husband used to sound when he would complain about me. Different frustrations - similar voice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Jamie's thread -

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi...atebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=012898;p=1

<small>[ November 06, 2002, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

Jamie,
Thanks for posting. But I'm not sure I understand your point. How do I "sound"? I read your link to your situation. Are you saying I am abusive like your husband (rest his soul)? Sounds like we may have a few things we could bounce off one another. But I still don't get your point.

My situation is really no better. After four years of trying on this R I've pretty much withdrawn. We did separate for a while a few months ago, but it hurt my kids (me too, call me a "wimp" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ), particuarly my 8 year old.

She's still doing the same old things. To me it's become "my problem to solve". She's not going to. A previous post noted something that has stuck with me (paraphase):

IN THE LONG-TERM PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO.

What I'm doing right now is staying with my kids. Needs? HA! What she's done to me has cheapened it to the point that I hardly care anymore whether she meets those needs. It's really not a healthy situation and will have to change sooner or later.

So, how do you go about making a situation like this change?

<small>[ November 05, 2002, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Jake ]</small>

Well, the slapping thing for a start. My husband never hit me but he did feel justified in using physical actions, and creating fear to communicate displeasure, anger, upset.

Everything was always my fault. He could never see that the fear he created and the stress he created was part of the reason I was withdrawing. He was quite worried about his &#8220;manhood&#8221; and how things looked to everyone else. And he was always graciously forgiving me, which was so demeaning. He was keeping score of I had done wrong in his eyes, but never saw his part in any of it. The past was held over my head, I was always trying to make up for my failings &#8211; and never could. I could never be enough for him. I could never be myself. I could never be good enough. I had to give everything, and became convinced that I had nothing to give. Eventually I became very suicidal. And he&#8217;s thinking that he&#8217;s just fine. It&#8217;s all me. If that wife of mine would just change this, or that&#8230;

The situation is not the same, but I do see similarities, from another perspective.

I see your point now. And, to some extent, you're right. Note my string above........"cheapened".

Here's what I mean - when you've negotiated time and time again, made the mistake of bringing up the past and letting the past be brought up, seen a promise or commitment slide and do nothing about it just to prevent a fight and then bring up the next one......and participate in a fight.....

These are the things I've done that have hurt.

But what can I do otherwise? I do believe that given any problem, look within for the solution. My W does not think this way. She sees others as the problem and seeks to avoid responsibility.

Jake or Bernie,

This going back to those memories is always very hard for me because I am one of those people whose memories are very real and very present when I call on them. It&#8217;s like going through the whole thing all over again.

It&#8217;s much easier for someone like me to dig a hole, dump everything in, bury it and run away &#8230; uh, after jumping on the ground a few times the make sure the earth is packed pretty solid over those damn memories/truths. But the past is a slippery sucker. It sprouts anew &#8230;

By now you are thinking &#8220;huh?&#8221;

Any way &#8211; maybe I can help you understand how your wife feels to a small degree. Or, maybe not. You may not want to hear from me after all.

I will say this, you scare me and reading how you feel makes me want to go hide under the sheets. I don&#8217;t even know you and I live very, very far away, and I&#8217;m feeling a little scared reading your anger with your wife. I can&#8217;t imagine being on the receiving end of that. Well, actually I can. That&#8217;s my problem.

I&#8217;m going to apologize in advance because I think I&#8217;m going to piss you off. Not my intention. Please remember that I&#8217;m relating this to my own feelings and memories. I&#8217;m not attacking you &#8211; just offering insight into how she might feel.

I relate very much to her feelings of not being perfect, and withdrawing. I can understand why you might not be a big priority for her right now &#8211; she possibly trying very hard to keep breathing. She probably has nothing to give.

The affairs are most likely not about her giving anything TO someone else. My guess is that they are about getting something FROM someone, anyone, and something unconditional that she can take to her soul and feel herself with. It sounds like she is dying inside.

As long as you focus mostly on what you want from her that you are not getting, you&#8217;re most likely going to get the same result. It sounds like you both have been locked into the same hopeless dance for a long time. Someone has to change the music so you can start a new dance. However she can&#8217;t tell you which music she wants, and if she did, you most likely would choose a different tune from the one she wants any way. Sorry &#8211; slipped into the philosophical for a second there.

It&#8217;s going to take me a while to go through all of the posts here again, and comment, if you want to hear more from me that is. If you do, give me a few days.

I can&#8217;t remember how many children you have. Have you said before?

Best,
Jamie

<small>[ November 05, 2002, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

Some things I wonder as I read your posts are here.

What do you think attracted your wife to you when she met you?

What kinds of things did you do when you were interested in getting to know your wife better that made her fall in love with you? There must have been a few things that you were AWARE of doing with the GOAL of winning her mind and heart.

And I also wonder, why did you want her?

These are serious questions so if you choose to answer them, skip the &#8220;for the life of me I don&#8217;t know&#8221; stuff guys seem to like to pull. You know.

Jamie,
First of all you didn't piss me off with your comments. I'm a big guy and I can handle the truth. So, lay it on me (that goes for everyone!).

Now, to answer your last questions:

What do you think attracted your wife to you when she met you?
She says how I look and act. Apparently she thought, and still says, that I'm a good-looking guy. She's also talked about a "presence" about me - something like a "natural born leader" thing. I don't always see it like this, however. In my job, and being an athlete in college before that, you have to get things done. And I do.

What kinds of things did you do when you were interested in getting to know your wife better that made her fall in love with you?
We were always together when we were dating. Best friends & lovers. We went out together of dates, spent evenings & weekends playing around, etc. Back then I often got her flowers, cards, little notes, etc. And she was even bigger about this than me.

And I also wonder, why did you want her?
She is drop-dead beautiful of one thing! But she had a good-natured side about her too (still does, she just won't let it out anymore). Barrel of monkeys to be around sometime, and very bright too.

You can tell that I still do think a lot about her. But here's my dilemma - I'm simply not tolerant enough to go through what I've been through and still not have my EN's met. She'll say, "I want to do it!” But you can't talk your way out of a problem you behaved yourself into!!!!!

You are going to have to be &#8220;tolerant enough&#8221; if you want to change the music.

What was your first year together like? What do you think the high points were for her?

What were the high points for you?

I'm just trying to see the broader picture.

<small>[ November 06, 2002, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

Jamie,
Let say that I do appreciate you and the time you're spending with me! Thanks!

You asked a few question. Let me attempt to answer each and ask a few myself.

"You are going to have to be "tolerant enough" if you want to change the music."
Tolerant? To me there's a distinction between being tolerant and being foolish. Where do you draw the line? I have tolerated cheating, promises that were broken/unkept/false (you pick whichever one - to me it means the same), verbal and emotional abuse, and little help financially. I can put the past in the past and keep it there if I get "future protection". So, where do you draw the line?

What was your first year together like?
First year dating.....we were in college together and inseparable. Always together. Lots of affection & sex.
First year of marriage......same as above.

What do you think the high points were for her?
She caught the guy she wanted. Honestly, she sought out my company, did things with me.

What were the high points for you?
Good-looking girl, fun to be with, great sex, and she "took care and looked out for me".

".......the broader picture".
Here's what I can't understand. About two or three years into our marriage we started having sexual problems. Now admittedly my sex drive is higher than hers (a lot of couples are this way aren't they?). I tried and tried to address it with her....talk, talk, talk. She'd say, "Yeah, I'm just too busy", or "...too tired". You probably heard the excuses before.

Finally, after 4 years of dating and 4 years of marriage she just dropped on me that I'm too "big" for her, that sex is painful and that "you must understand and accept that I'm not going to have sex that often anymore". BTW, I'm 6'4", she's 5'1" if that explains the "big" thing a little better.

My response: "So, let me get this right, after 8 years together you're telling that sex hurts you and you're not going to negotiate on this position any further?"
Her reply: "Yep."

Just a few days later she found out she was expecting our first. Now, here's where I'm at - my marriage is screwed up (we had other problems other than sex (i.e., little time being spent on the R, a VERY BIG LIE about money on her part), I just got "nuked" and I'm a daddy. Well, I'm a logical guy and since no man has ever died from a lack of sex I simply refocused myself. Rather than spend time fighting her over not getting any I focused on the kid (now two kids) and my job. Our sex life didn't really stop, it was just more so whenever the mood hit her. Anytime I got aggressive she complained "it hurts".

Four years later she got mixed up with the "wrong people" and fooled around. Some pretty nasty stuff that I won't repeat any gory details. But it really makes me doubt the "it hurts" or "my sex drive is just lower than yours" complaints. One of my favorites is her "opinion" about my FEELINGS. Yes! She has and voices an opinion about my feelings. And her opinion an't pretty.

Jamie, I'm no saint. Part of the responsibility for getting us where we're at is mine. So is getting where we want to be. I accept that. It seems that no matter what I do, no matter how much I compromise, things just don't change and get any better. Basically, I feel like a doormat. Her typical retort to me is "I'm trying" or "I just can't be perfect enough". She reactionary and defensive (not just with me), stretches thing out of proportion, and just "vegetates" anymore. I do think I can put the past in the past if my future is brighter. I still do want her there, but not like this.

You asked for the "broader picture". Hopes this helps you help me more.

Thanks!

Okay - that was entirely inappropriate and I apologize. It was just too tempting for my demented sense of humor.

<small>[ November 06, 2002, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

When I say &#8220;tolerant&#8221; I don&#8217;t mean foolish. I mean goal focused. Someone who is goal focused thinks strategically, with an end result in mind and doesn&#8217;t allow short term (abet painful) realities get in the way of the goal they hold in their mind, and or heart &#8211; depending on the individual&#8217;s motivation.

&#8220;Where do you draw the line?&#8221;

Well you clearly can&#8217;t draw it yet, for whatever reason, so it is better to do what you can, than do nothing at all.

I get the feeling that you think she might have pretended to be something she wasn&#8217;t to some degree when you were dating. The &#8220;She caught the guy she wanted,&#8221; statement stuck with me. I wonder if you feel that she snagged you some how. Caught implies that you feel like a trophy, or that she should feel lucky to have you.

&#8220;Honestly, she sought out my company, did things with me.&#8221;

Yup &#8211; but didn&#8217;t you seek her out too? I hope you did.

I&#8217;m looking at the high points for you during your coutship and first year of marriage. It seems that just as the high points you listed as her high points during that time, were all about you &#8211; the high points you list for you, are all about you as well. At least it&#8217;s looking that way.

&#8220;Good-looking girl, fun to be with, great sex, and she "took care and looked out for me."

It&#8217;s been my experience that year number three is a really &#8220;interesting&#8221; one. It&#8217;s about the time when one or both parties, start to express displeasure in the things they are unhappy about in the relationship. If only one person starts to complain, it&#8217;s usually the one that has been doing most of the emotional giving.

Whatever has been hurting, that the individual has been overlooking or pushing under the carpet so to speak, starts to come out to the forefront of the relationship.

Then the partner who thought everything was just dandy those first three years, goes into a state of shock insisting things go back to the way they were because things were great. Actually insisting isn't quite the right word. Demanding might be more accurate. For some situations, maybe not yours.

It sounds like things really slipped from your perspective at about year four just before your first child.

If you want to hear what I&#8217;m wondering though, I&#8217;m wondering if that wasn&#8217;t just the first you SAW of it. If some things had been going on for her that you just were not seeing, or hearing, or for her own reasons she felt that she couldn&#8217;t show you or tell you. That&#8217;s just what I wonder.

I think I&#8217;ll have to address the &#8220;I&#8217;m not perfect comment&#8221; she makes and her defensiveness another time. Too many things are thrown into a lump in the last post, making it hard for me to respond to everything you&#8217;ve said. I would suggest again, as I did in an earlier post, that it is possible that the affairs were about something she GOT, more than something she was giving. But keep in mind that I say that without knowing your wife.

I would not doubt the &#8220;it hurts" comment, my guess is that she&#8217;s telling the truth.

I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s just that her &#8220;sex drive is just lower than yours" although it might be, again, I don&#8217;t know. I do know that satisfaction increases my desire, it does for most women. I&#8217;m not your wife so I can tell you that. Again, please understand, I&#8217;m just giving you my perspective and my perspective is not necessarily the reality.

I&#8217;m lost with what you said about her "opinion" about your feelings. Do you want to share that or are you just making a statement?

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

i think you should spend your free time with your kids,they are being hurt by what is going on with you and your wife,kids know when things are not right.just maybe your wife will come around when she sees you spending extra time with your kids.my husband and i don't get too spend to much time together,because we are usaualy busy with kids or family or friends,but we do our best to show each other we are there for each other.you should go out with your friends have some fun,YOU should go and talk to a couslor.doese she have any close friends she talks too?well i wish you luck.god be with you.

I&#8217;m gonna take a break from this for a few days. After yesterday I had a huge headache and my right eye started to twitch, a sure sign that I&#8217;m stressing too much. I find you hugely stressful. I want you to consider this. I don&#8217;t know you, I don&#8217;t live with you, all you are to me is words on a page and the energy you put out is giving me a headache, stress, and lowering my energy level enough for me to need to draw away, what kind of effect does the energy you put out there have on your wife? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

I started a new thread here ...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=013178

Discussion about what is painful for women during sex. Maybe will offer more input/insight.

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

Jamie,
Thanks again for you time. And yes you can remove some of your post...sorry it took me a little time to get back, but I had a bit of unexpected work related travel.

Your point vs. my intent about the "it hurts" question is a bit confusing perhaps. It's not a "performance" issue during the act on her part. Besides her current inattention, it's her words and past hypocritical actions that bother me. It "stings" bad to say "it hurts" after 8 years together (mind you without even a peep about it during all that time) then to go do what she did! To me, at least, she's used this as a "weapon". Maybe I wasn't very clear about that.

As for the Big-O question…………it’s NEVER been a problem. Mostly giving oral on my part to reach it, which I had been doing very often. Other than the size issue and differences in drive, she has made no complaints.

Maybe I need to simplify this a little, rather than restate all the “background noise”. I can forgive her for what she's done…I can and will. But I (yes, I!) must have future protection. Call me selfish if you must, but I will not be treated the way I’ve been treated in the past and get the empty, lonely, emotionless marriage I’m in right now. It's just not worth it. A marriage that is not intimate is a cause for alarm and action. That’s what I’m trying to fix.

“And then there’s this…”: you make a valid point about me not posting for others. This not an excuse perhaps, but my reasoning for not posting is that I don’t really feel like I have a lot to offer to anyone right now on the advice front. I mean I don’t feel qualified to give anyone advice when my life is so screwed up!!! Your feedback – reality check, maybe - on this is appreciated.

THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Jake ]</small>

The answer to the "why" in that comment your wife makes &#8220;it hurts&#8221;, might take a while to get to find an answer to. I can see how you might feel that she's used this as a "weapon&#8221;. Remember though that the way something feels, isn&#8217;t always the way something is.

Blow her mind. Focus on the long-term goal.

Proverbs 11:25 &#8220;The generous soul will itself be made fat, and the one freely watering [others] will himself also be freely watered.&#8221;

Philippians 2:3-4 &#8220;doing nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with lowliness of mind considering that the others are superior to YOU, keeping an eye, not in personal interest upon just YOUR own matters, but also in personal interest upon the needs of the others.

Remember that regardless of what you both have done to each other, she&#8217;s still in the same boat with you. She hasn&#8217;t quite dove toward the shore yet either. If she is as beautiful as you suggest, I&#8217;m sure she could find someone else to fill the role of wage earner, if that were really all you mean to her. Think about the next time you look at her. She is still there, she doesn&#8217;t have to be, ponder on why but rather than playing the old negatives tapes you&#8217;ve been holding on to, try to think through the deeper reasons why she is still there.

I remember being deeply hurt by my husband and pulling away emotionally. I can remember doing it in my mind to survive. I died, and walked, and talked, but I was dead inside. He terrified me. I never pulled away sexually, but every woman is different in how she copes. I was hurt, I was angry, I was cold, and I can see now that my emotional needs were being met elsewhere so maybe I had an EA. But to be honest I&#8217;m not sure how I would have managed without someone in the universe telling me that I was special to him, and that I had value. I stayed with my husband though, and some of that has to do with the deep commitment I held to myself to follow through with my commitment to him. But further down under all the pain and crap, I was his friend. I loved him. I wanted to continue loving him. Sometimes it was difficult to see that through the layers of pain and years of heartache, but it was there.

But, enough about me, what I&#8217;m trying to do is give you another way to look at your wife&#8217;s motives.

She&#8217;s still there. She doesn&#8217;t have to stay. Look for the positive reasons that she is still there.

Also, please don&#8217;t brush aside my suggestions that you give some consideration to what she might have gotten from the affairs she had beyond the obvious. There may be something that she needed that she wasn&#8217;t getting from you. Be as analytical as you can be in this consideration. Most likely the real answer to that might not be one you will ascertain straight away. It may take some time. Apparently, time is something you&#8217;ve got as long as you are both there.

I was looking at your wife&#8217;s list of EN&#8217;s last night.

1. Time for herself.
2. Help me out around the house more.
3. Understand that I've tried.
4. Let's spend our time together focusing on the family.

Jake, I am an introvert, a big time introvert. At times this can be hard to spot because I can be funny, and in a group of two or three, if no one else is carrying the conversation, I can keep everyone pretty entertained for a while. When I was more emotionally healthy I was a good hostess, putting effort into the right combination of food, company, and activities. Very responsive in terms of listening to others, seeing them, and hearing them. BUT. I am also easily overwhelmed by others. Too much going on tires me out. A great deal of conflict sucks up my energy. Sometimes human contact and conversation actually becomes physically painful to me and I can become quite unwell. I need a lot of time alone to recharge. Interaction tires me out. Most people I know find this very frustrating and hard to understand. One minute I appear to be the perfect woman &#8211; suddenly I&#8217;m tired and need to end the conversation and be alone. I don&#8217;t know if any of this sounds like your wife or not.

Do you think your wife is introverted or extraverted?

Introverts often:
· Have quiet energy
· Listen more than talk
· Think quietly inside their head
· Think, then act
· Feel comfortable being alone
· Are considered pretty private people
· Have good powers of concentration
· Prefer to focus on one thing at a time
· Are self-contained and reserved

Extraverts often:
· Have high energy
· Talk more than listen
· Think out loud
· Act, then think
· Like to be around people a lot
· Are easy to get to know
· Can sometimes be easily distracted
· Prefer to do lots of things at once
· Are outgoing & enthusiastic

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

I found a comment that I thought might be worth you consideration.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "when a man fulfills a woman's needs...most of the time, a woman responds by feeling prettier, wanting more sex, more domestic, and wants to spend more time recreationally with this man. That just happens to be what most men want in their most important emotional needs. So when a man gives to a woman it brings out her "giver". And they both get what they want.

"Men do not react that way. When a woman does a good Plan A....most of time a man wants "more!". More more more. Rather than bringing out the "giver", it brings out his "taker" and he will then raise the stakes and further define what he wants. Like for instance when I was dressing nicely everyday and H didn't want me to change out of those things until I went to bed, or bathing before bed....he was futher defining what attractive spouse requirements he wanted. But it did not encourage him to fulfill my needs or examine his actions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was going to say something to you along these lines myself. This is often why women begin to feel &#8220;All tried out.&#8221;

Most women are innately givers. Fact is though, you might not be aware of how much she was giving, or how hard she was trying in the past. You may have continued to raise the benchmark until she could push herself no further. That is just one possibility for her withdrawal. Might not be on target but just something worth throwing out there.

Harley on the Halfshell

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Jamie MacInnis ]</small>

If you can afford it, remove the obstacle she's putting before you...cleaning house, for example. Hire a cleaning service to come in once a week or once every other week. The couple of hundred bucks a month you spend is way cheaper than any divorce attorney or the years of support you'll end up paying. I know this sounds like a quick fix, but it's a small thing you can do for her. Don't tell her it's so she can spend more time with you, though. She won't go for that. Tell her you just really would like for her to have a little luxury once in a while and you enjoy making her happy like that.

Bearable,
Been there, did that. We had a nice, older lady come in once a week to clean the house (I think she needed the money anyway, she was a widow and I paid her cash). But this never changed my wife's behavior. In fact in some ways she was worse. I had to stop this because of the financial situation since she quit her job.

By the way, she did it again! I opened up, we talked, I got promises and she broke them in less than a week. And she's totally out of touch with the impact on me.

I'm lost!!!!!!!!

Warning!!! - This is a bitter pill.

I tried again to talk to her. Couldn't even get a Plan A/B off the ground. Basically, her attitude is a "here's what I'm gonna do, if it doesn't make you happy that's your problem."

What do you do when your wifes EMOTIONAL NEEDS are to not (repeat, NOT) have meet your EMOTIONAL NEEDS?

I've searched to site but can't seem to find anything concerning emotional needs is conflict. Other than withdrawal or patiently waiting topics I'm kinda lost. This has been going on so long that I'm feeling rather foolish.

Whata you make of this? During a discussion yesterday my W and I had the following exchanges:

First part
Me:
“We are not spending enough time together. How can we rebuild our relationship if we don’t work on it together? We’ve discussed and agreed many times in the past going out on a date once a month. But that’s not happening.”
W:
“WE DON’T HAVE THE @#^% MONEY! Maybe if you wouldn't spend $40 or $50 a week going to lunch with your work buddies then maybe we could.”
Me, after opening the checkbook:
“Help me understand that! I’ve got the money. I’ve always had the money. Let’s do it!”
W:
“@^&&#!”

Second part
W:
“You’re asking for too much. I won’t bow down before you (i.e., meet my needs) until you meet my needs! What’s in it for me? Don’t I have a right to be happy too?”
Me:
“I thought we were going to find something we could both agree too?”
W:
“Yeah, but it has to be something achievable.”
Me:
“Okay, I agree. Doesn’t it also have to be something that works?”
W:
“A-C-H-I-E-V-A-B-L-E”.

Third part
W:
“Plan A, Plan B? Jesus, you’re threatening me again!”
Me:
“Threatening? How?”
W:
“So, if I don’t do what you want then you pack up and leave.”
Me:
“No. If WE don’t do what WE agree to then WE separate for a period of time, cool off, then come back together to decide what WE’re going to do.”
W:
“Same @$#^@ thing! WE DON’T HAVE THE MONEY!”

<small>[ November 21, 2002, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Jake ]</small>

Jamie,
I am totally new to this website and just found it because I am having a problem. I have been reading your conversation with Jake and really admire how you are trying to give him the female perspective.

Your quote says When a woman does a good Plan A....most of time a man wants "more!". More more more. Rather than bringing out the "giver", it brings out his "taker" and he will then raise the stakes and further define what he wants. But it did not encourage him to fulfill my needs or examine his actions.

This is my very same problem. I give my H what he wants (sex) and as soon as he is satiated, he has no need for me and he ignores me until he wants more sex. (See my post where I tried to start a new thread under Negotiating in Marriage.}

So, is withholding sex an appropriate way for me to try to get him to focus on meeting my needs? He met every single one of my needs very well, astoundingly well, before we married, when he had to "work" for sex by courting me. We were much happier then. Once we married and he was in the bed every night with me, well, he decided (I guess) that he didn't need to bother with the affection anymore because he could have sex for free whenever he wanted it. Trying to meet his ENs, I gave him the sex.

Then he decided to skip the foreplay and the afterplay (and my orgasm) and just go straight for his satisfaction, then he asks me to rub his back, and then he goes to sleep.

He's alienating me so much I get angry writing this.

When I ask my H to meet my needs, he tells me I should appreciate what he does. Problem is, what he does is not what I need. What I need is different from what he thinks I need and it is not the same as what he needs. But he does not get this. He does one thing like pay for a new roof or take out the trash and that is supposed to count as my "affection" for the rest of my life? Well it doesn't!! And then he gets mad that I don't "appreciate" him. What does he think all those blow jobs are?

It just seems that giving more results in getting less when it is a woman giving to a man. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Jake:
Your wife keeps saying you don't have enough money to do certain things but you keep denying that. Yet earlier on you said you could not afford to keep the maid. Do you have plenty of money, or only enough money for what YOU want to spend it on?

Does she have any money or do you have control of all of it? You sounded very smug when you announced that she quit her job so now you are the one earning all the money. If you are controlling her by withholding money or making all the decisions where to spend it, I can understand how she would be unwilling to do any giving at all. She is more like a prisoner than a wife at that point. She'll have more money under a 50/50 split than if she stays with you, probably.

Pippa:

Gosh, you’re a judgmental one! You concluded all that with just “one little peek into my window”?

Look, I do value your opinion and please don’t think me a complete jerk - just a little bit of one, maybe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> !

I do control the money at this point. And I’ve taken absolutely no material necessity from my wife. Admittedly, she may disagree with this, but professional manicures, adding a heater to the swimming pool and a new living room suit just aren’t possible right now......no matter how secure it makes her feel. Call me "smug" if you like, but I will find a way to come together with her if she will. But not going to lunch at work is not the problem - I have the money, it's available right now. Problem is she WANTS these other things more perhaps. But you know, we still live in the same fine home, she still drives the same car (a rather expensive one at that - RX300), and I am still asking her to go out with me.

Now, let me ask you this. Why should I pay for a maid to clean our home while my wife is here and not working outside the home? I do make a fairly nice income, but I don’t grow money-trees. Given the situation, I had to make choices. Rest your mind at ease however – I am not out throwing my money around on myself. Rather, I’m taking care of my family first. Perhaps you missed my point about the withdrawal that was made by her?

If you want to know more go to the Emotional Needs forum and look up “EN Conflict”. Tells a bit more of my story.

Enough of me! Let’s talk about you.

Pippa, honestly, lumping “all men” together with a statement like “....when a woman does a good Plan A....most of time a man wants "more!", concerns me. Frankly, it’s a borderline version of bigotry. Not “all men” are like this, though granted some are. My suggestion is take us one at a time and don’t give up on us. We’re not all hairy apes!

Reviewing what you wrote about your sexual problems with H, it’s clear that he’s out of touch with your ENs. How do you know that all he wants from you is sex? Are you sure that’s the root cause of why he climax’s and then “leaves”? Here’s just a few signs that it’s “just the sex he want”, strictly from a mans perspective:

1. Is he faithful?
2. Does he ogle or “drool” over other women?
3. Does he do the “jock” thing (i.e., run with the buddies, sports, hunt, fish) where he could brag?
4. Is he the least bit romantic? Affectionate?

My guess is that if he’s doing 1, 2 and/or 3 he’s just using you as an outlet for sex. But if he’s doing #4 as well then you got some hope. A lot of guys, me included, are physical creatures who connect love with a physical act. Whether he’s doing 1-3 or not, if he’s not doing any of 4 then he’s got a serious problem with you. Please don’t take that the wrong way – it may not be anything you can do or anything you did at all. Maybe it’s him?

You and I are in the same boat about our spouses meeting needs. The one thing I’ve learned is that it’s pointless to ask. Even more pointless, and destructive, to expect a promise to have your needs met. Want affection, try this:

– Unannounced to him, get a babysitter. When he gets home be waiting for him with the lights low, soft music, rose petals all over the bed and floor, and you shower him with affection and romance. Drag it out! In fact, move around, slow/stop type approach, tease him and don’t let him climax for say an hour. Kill him with it! Then as soon as he’s climaxed, go right back. But no more BJs only. Intercourse!

Do this and you’ll woo him. An old saying I love is, “If you want, then be!” So, you bring the romance and affection to the R. Try this from time to time for the next month or so. If he hasn’t turned more toward you by then........well, then you know. Let me know if you decide to try this or something like it and how it works out. (I’m really interested because I’ve tried this and it didn’t work!!!!)

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ November 22, 2002, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Jake ]</small>

Jake--
As far as men always wanting "more more more" and not reciprocating--I was agreeing with the quote in Jamie's Nov. 9 post--not originating that idea! So if I'm being judgmental, ok, but I'm in the company of plenty of others making the same judgment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

About your situation, I am wondering, when W quit working, how was it determined that the maid and manicures had to go, but your lunches out got to stay?

I assume it was your unilateral decsion because you feel entitled to make all the money decisions because you earn all the money.

But if your W had made the decision, would she have done the equivalent of what you did, and kept the maid and manicures, and made you eat bologna on white at your desk everyday?

Why not follow POJA and decide together where to spend the $$?

When you make all the decisions by yourself, even if you are kind and generous about it (which it does not exactly sound like you are at this point) she probably still feels disrespected--you are making her play the role of a child, not a wife. And your decisions seem punitive--you drop the maid and make her clean the toilets, yet you allow the luxury of a pool heater (but not the luxury of a manicure). Talk about making judgments! Goodness! How would you feel if she had the job, and you stayed home, and she gave you no input into where money was spent? What if you said, let's hire a maid, and she said, no, I want you to clean the toilets since you sit home all day! Would she be justified in that? Would you feel that you were being punished ?

As for my "sexual" problem, can you explain what you mean when you say "go back" after the climax? Back to what?

Also, why do you say "no more BJ's, intercourse!" If I am supposed to be meeting his EN for sex the way he wants it, and that is the way he wants it, why are you saying no more BJs? What's the difference (to a man) between a BJ and intercourse, anyway?

I am clueless and I really do need a man's perspective on this, so thank you!

Pippa:

When my W quit work it was totally unannounced to me in advanced, we had not discussed it at all. Please recall that just before she quit that an important bill had gone unpaid by her, even though it was well within our budget to pay it. She “concealed” from me the true gravity of our financial situation. I understand that her boss was a real jerk, but you don’t quit until you have another job to start right away. Then her choice to sit around in a “vege” state while not looking for another job compelled me to make some tough choices of my own. I had to protect myself and my children. She made the “unilateral decision”!

When she quit her job I was left with a situation in which my take-home pay was just $68 per month above our expenses. So, you see “luxury” items such as manicures and the maid had to go. Also, her statement about spending $40 to $50 per week on my lunches is an intentional mis-characterization on her part, to some extent. Pippa, I have gone without lunch entirely on more occasions than I can count. And many of the times that go out I’m taking my entire department out for a business related discussion (which I turn in on an expense report and my employer reimburses me for it). She knows this, but still chooses to attack me about it. This is pure, simple bruised ego and petty jealously isn’t it?

Also, I did NOT want a heater installed in the pool (which did not have a heater – unlike what you took from my post). She wanted this! I caught h-e-double toothpicks when I said no to this.

To get through this god-awful mess, I faced some tough decisions. I have sold off stock and inherited property just to make ends meet and keep from having my wages garnished. And all this time she sits by the pool, talks on the phone, and whatever else. She’s told me she simply must have some time for herself.

POJA? We had a joint agreement and she has broken it. Furthermore, she refused to make a new one that that is agreeable to me. Remember the term “joint”. Although she’d never agree to this assessment, the effect of what she wants will have on me is:

1. I get up each morning, get the kids ready for school and daycare. She stays in bed if she wants.
2. I drop the kids off and go to work.
3. All I earn I make hers just the same.
4. She stays at home, goes out as she pleases. Lives in the house she wants. Drives what she wants.
5. She will pick up the kids at after school/daycare by 6:00 if she done with what she’s doing. If not I have to be sure to be off work to get them.
6. I come home after work and help her with the kids, the housework, etc.
7. We’ll go out, make love, be together if she feels like it.
8. Next day I start all over again.

I don’t consider what I’ve written above to be much of an exaggeration. Overly dramatic maybe, but not an exaggeration. So, tell me Pippa, what real choices did I have to do what I’ve done?

Disrespect? Trading places? Punished? To me this is not about being “justified” in mis-treating someone. What I’m aiming for is fixing my marriage. If “fixed” means something different to her, and it’s the reality that it currently is, then she needs to leave.

Now for your questions about sex.

What I mean by "go back" after the climax is just that – go back and get a second climax. “Sweetness” is a dish best served in double!

“..........no more BJ's, intercourse!" I must have missed this. Let me get this right – his EN is to have a BJ? Nothing else? Pippa, I must admit that that I don’t understand your man. You got trouble on your hands my dear.

“What's the difference (to a man) between a BJ and intercourse, anyway?” I can speak for myself. Oral sex has a tendency to lack intimacy, particularly if that’s all that’s going on. You must be terribly lonely! Intercourse on the other hand is very intimate. I could quote a lot of therapist stuff to you, but won’t. I always felt closer to my W starting with foreplay, then oral, and then intercourse. With our “size” issue I always made a point to be very oral with her (besides, I love giving it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ) ) so that she was well lubricated and ready for me. What a lot of men don't realize is that they'll "get off better" if they focus on getting their mate off more than themselves. If he’s not interested in giving oral or having intercourse, flat out ask why. Do it nicely, of course, in an appropriate setting. An old problem solving technique I use is “ask ‘Why?’ five times”. By that fifth ‘Why?’ you’re at the root cause of the problem. Pippa, my best guess is that he does not find you attractive or does not lust for you anymore. Also, some people just have lower sex drives. Think back to when he was pleasing you consistently well – what was different?

I do encourage you NOT to use sex as a “weapon” to get what you need. Refusing sex will absolutely, positively tick most men off beyond description. Take it from one who’s been there. Do this and he will find so many faults, real or imagined, that will make him question why he’s with you.

In closing I be frank with you. If his key EN is only to receive oral sex from you and not meet your needs in the long-term as well, then you must consider your chances at being happy with this man. You can’t “make someone change, make someone love you, or make someone meet your needs”.

Please let me know how things work out

<small>[ November 23, 2002, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: Jake ]</small>