Hi,<p>My husband and I have both been to the seminar and have been working hard on emotional needs and lovebusters. We still get stuck and here's a recurring theme I need help with:<p>My hobby is fish aquariums and my husband is really resenting the time I spend on my hobby. I belong to 2 aquarium societies and also meet with fellow hobbyists to trade plants, corals, etc.. <p>This weekend, I did a major replanting and met with 3 people (two at my house and one at his house) to trade stuff. I admit it took a lot of our weekend time. My husband got quiet and kind of withdrawn (my clue that I had exceeded his limit). Last nite on our weekly date nite I asked him to talk about it. He said, "I feel that you prioritize your aquariums over everything else, me, the family, etc... Whenever you have a spare minute, you spend it on your aquariums instead of us." He said it in an angry voice. <p>I asked him (in an equally angry voice, feeling kind of attacked) to tell me when he wants to do something special with the kids or him, and I would do it. He replied that it shouldn't be his responsibility to plan activities. It should be my responsibility to know that I am prioritizing the aquariums over him. I asked him to be specific to tell me what I should do. He said "Quit prioritizing the aquariums". We were at a deadlock. Our date nite ended early in a disaster.<p>Please comment on what we both can do better. I know that at times I spend more time on the aquariums than he would like. But I feel that I try to consider his feelings ahead of time (I had asked him Sunday what was up and he didn't suggest any other activity, so I asked if I could go over to Pat's to trade stuff. At the time he didn't object. He just got quiet later and I could tell he was angry.) He really wants ME to take the lead on family/us time. I want him to be specific when he wants more time, and let me know THEN, not later, by being quiet.<p>
Thank you!

Anger, according to our good Doctor Phil is a cover for some lesser emotion. Could it be that he is feeling that you like your aquariums more than he? It sounds to me like he is saying to you that he is unsure of his place in your life and is worried that it is second to the fish.<p>Sometimes, maybe what he wants is for you to decide NOT to do any aquarium stuff and instead to choose to be with him.<p>I think that what he is looking here for is more assurance and reassurance that he really matters to you. Maybe he just wants to feel that you would prefer to spend time with him.<p>Anyway, that's my thought.

I really agree with you, spt_fl. The part I'm not sure about is how much responsibility do we each take for this situation? I feel that he is unfairly putting the entire burden of his feelings on me. I have asked him to be more specific, and he says "Quit prioritizing". Does this mean I give up the hobby entirely? Does this mean I should limit the time to X number of hours/days? Does this mean he wants me to initiate family activities more often? Always? Should he ever be responsible for asking me to join him in an activity? Or do I bear 100% of the responsibility? When I ask him if it's ok to go fish shopping and he says "yes", is it fair for him to get mad at me later?<p>I think you can tell I am a bit angry that he seems to be making this all my responsibility. I would like to make him happy, but I need more specific guidelines from him, and I think it's fair for me to ask. How can we compromise? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Sorry, but I just thought of another thing. During our discussion, I felt that his comment was a disrespectful judgment. He said that it is not a disrespectful judgment, it's simply telling me how he feels. Here is the thing he said:<p>"I feel that you prioritize your aquariums over everything else, me, the family, etc... Whenever you have a spare minute, you spend it on your aquariums instead of us." <p>Sometimes, he tacks the words "I feel" at the beginning of a sentence and calls it "sharing his feelings", but I feel very attacked.... <p>If we could get better on this type of thing, our marriage would be great. We get stuck on this over and over again....

It sounds to me as if the two of you are headed for a classic pissing contest. Is that what you want? Could what he is saying be called disrespectful? sure. Who cares. You are focusing on the irrelevent.<p>It appears that you are focusing on the tactics of the argument rather than the point. If what you want is a solution, then who cares who did what?<p>I think from what he is saying to you that he is feeling left out, unappreciated and possibly unloved. The wording he used to describe that is not of concern. Now you can decide that I don't know squat and you may very well be right, but if you are able to change nothing of your time habits, but deal with his issues and both of you win, what does any of it matter.<p>I would suggest that you just simply tell him that you hear in his words that he may feel left out, unappreciated and unloved. Ask him if that is how he feels. If it is, ask what you can do that would relieve that. If that means that you sacrifice some hobby time to have marriage time, isn't that what you are supposed to do? I will bet that when he feels secure in the relationship, he won't care that you have a hobby that is important to you.<p>You are, however, the only one to know best. I wish you nothing but good luck.

BTW,<p>I think that the reason he gets mad after agreeing for you to do something is that he probably wants you to CHOOSE to be with him over the hobby.

Tiredbuttrying, spt_fl is my husband and he knows exactly how your husband feels. I have not prioritized our relationship in the past and it has hurt us more than you know. We are now working on our relationship, however, if I stop putting him and our relationship first then we are again in trouble. You do not have to stop having your hobbies, what you have to do is stop making them #1 they should be way down on your list of things that are important. He is trying to tell you that he needs to know he is important, he needs to know that you love him enouph to put him first sometimes. I to got defensive and stuborn, and ya know what, I almost lost the best thing that ever happened to me. Nothing, to me, is more important than not loosing my husband and my family. You and only you can decide what is important to you. You might be surprised at your husbands reaction to your hobbies once he is given some of your time.

Couple of suggestions. Discuss your weekly schedules together...planning in couple time first. Then work on informing the other of what you are thinking of doing & get agreement....POJA applies to all your activities.<p>We don't do a terrific job of this, but we are getting better..."hon, I am thinking of going to the XYZ on Saturday...I'd probably be gone till 5, how do you feel about that?" Two years ago we both felt the other put too many things in front of us. Funny thing is neither of us has cut ack that much on outside activities, ut now that they are disciussed and agreed upon, it FEELS like the emphasis is where it should be...on each other first and foremost.<p>Good luck--<p>Kathi

<p>[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: saythewords ]</p>

Hi,<p>Thanks for all the tips, believe me I realize that the hobby/husband prioritization is a #1 issue. We have been working at MB for over a year and have gone thru the seminar, workbooks, etc.. His feelings are not a mystery to me and I feel I have changed my behavior extensively in the last year. But please remember there are two sides to every story. One of my big problems with him is the love buster of disrespectful judgment. I am not trying to get in a pissing contest with him, it's not important who's right or wrong, but isn't anyone bothered by what he said to me? I asked for advice on what we can BOTH do better. I KNOW I can do better, and intend to. I made a chart of all our activities, alone, together, with kids, etc.. and thru examining it decided I am doing way too much. I intend to cut out several activities per month. But I can't even discuss this with him because he gets angry and tells me how selfish I am and how I only care about myself, etc... And then I cry because I know it isn't true and don't know HOW to talk to him without him getting pissed off.<p>[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Tiredbuttrying ]</p>

Tired,<p>I re-read your initial post and it is clear to me that what you and your H are in is a classic pissing contest. He said something about his dislikes in a nasty way and you responded in kind. Was his comment a disrespectful judgement? Probably. What is it that you are wanting here? Are you wanting me to tell you that you have a point? You are correct, you have a point. Maybe he was being a complete jerk, too. Does knowing that make you feel any better or change the situation? <p>I have been in your H's exact spot and I am speaking to you from experience. What you are facing here is clearly what could amount to a deal breaker. Do you want to do the aquariums or do you want a marriage? Reverse the roles for a moment and think of how you might feel if your H spent all of his time playing golf. You just might feel neglected and hurt. I suspect that your H probably wouldn't care that you do the aquariums if he felt that his needs were being cared for.<p>In my own situation, I dearly want for my W to be happy. I want her to have the time to do the things that make her happy. In the short term, I don't even mind if she utterly neglects me. Over the long term, however, if I feel that I am being neglected, I have to begin to question the viability of the marriage. Do you really want your H to sit around and wonder if he really wants to be married to you? How much of a response do you think your H might be able to summon in that condition the next time some chickie comes sniffing?<p>The situation that you appear to be in is this:<p>Your H is feeling neglected. Maybe he is spending too much time blaming you for it, but that is what he appears to be feeling. For all of the faults that you can find in the way he is handling this, the fact remains that it is an action of yours that is causing this hurt.
At the same time, here you are feeling attacked over a cherished hobby that clearly you don't really want to let go of. At the same time, when H brings it up, you don't respond in any better a way than your H. What you are focusing on are the errors that he has made, which coincidentally allows the focus to shift from the aquariums.<p>What I am suggesting is that you don't need to feel threatened at all. If the root of what he is feeling is that you aren't responding to his needs in the way that he wants, then when you do respond to his needs the way that he wants, he isn't going to care about the aquariums. What would actually make him happy? How is the conversation, SF and such in your M? If one of those isn't doing so great, put some real effort into it and I will bet you that his concern about your hobby goes away. Do that and you win, he wins and your M wins.<p>I think that if you respond to him by altering the thing that is bothering him, you will find it much easier to get him to deal with disrespectful judgements. You are the one that is on MB and thus if someone has to start, why not you? Additionally, if his feelings have been built over a number of years, the disrespectful judgements may be coming from his resentment, which if the cause of the resentment is dealt with, it goes a long way to eliminating the disrespectful judgements.<p>I do hope that this helps and I don't mean to be too hard on you.

Hi again, spt_fl,<p>I don't think you're being hard on me. I do appreciate your feedback and understand why you are saying it. I guess it's just hard to encapsulate the whole story in a single post. I guess I am in a pissing contest. It's hard for me to let go of this #1 lovebuster -disrespectful judgements. You see, he is in MB too. We have been working on this together for a year. And I AM spending more time with him. I am prioritizing him. I do love him, want to be with him, tell him that, and show it, most of the time. I have given up several activities, and it's very possible I need to give up even more to prove to him that he's #1. However, I believe that I have a right to be able to talk about his needs, and how I have let him down, without him lovebusting me totally. I want to feel close to him. And most of the time I do. But when I unintentionally screw up, I believe I have the right to expect feedback in a respectful way. I really don't think you intend to tell me just to "suck it up" and take his wrath, and change my behavior more, without calling him on HIS behavior. I am NOT a spouse who's saying "love me the way I am, I don't have to change". I am willing to change and I believe he would agree that I have changed! But I still screw up sometimes, and I still want to feel that I can talk about it in a safe way. When he responds the way he does, I don't feel loved, close, understood, etc... One of my EN's is to have conversation in an honest, loving way. Does this make sense? Having said all that, I do understand what you're saying and do take it to heart.

Tired,<p>I understand your point and yes, it is important for your H to get past being rude. I agree with you on that and if he were here, I would tell him that it is crucial that he deal with your needs on an equal footing. Perhaps you should suggest that he examine this thread and discuss his feelings here as well. I have been in his spot and have had my attitude problems, as well.<p>The fact is, however, that he is not here. I can't tell him all of that. All I can do is to try to help you see this from his point of view. What I am trying to get you to see is that it is probably NOT that he wants you to give stuff up. What he is telling you is actually a cover for his true feelings. He is upset and you are hearing his complaints about what he sees as the problem. What I want you to understand is that while he is telling you that you are doing too much of this stuff, in all reality that isn't the problem at all.<p>I think that he is feeling neglected, that his needs aren't important to you. I think that if you change nothing about what you do, but address what he is really needing (but not saying) then you will have solved the actual problem.<p>Let me illustrate it this way. Way back when, my W would go out occassionally with her friends. When one of these occassions would approach, I could see the obvious excitement that she felt. I could see how she looked forward to it. I could see how she would plan and I noticed that no matter what problem came up, she would find a way to go. Then I would compare how she acted with her friends and these times that she went out with how she acted around me. The obvious conclusion that I drew was that while she told me how special or important I was to her, she really liked being with her friends. She would go out with me, but her reaction was of far less if any excitement, etc. I felt that with me, she put far less effort into anything we did together, etc. Any little problem would cancel our plans together.<p>What I am saying is that while on one hand she is telling me how important I am, her actions tell a vastly different story. Which was I to believe?<p>When I complained to my wife about her times out with her friends, she assumed that I was upset at her going out. She stopped going out when that accomplished nothing. The problem was how important I felt to her, not her friends.<p>When I truly became a priority, the remaining problems disappeared. <p>I felt jealous of everything that took priority over me, but when I became a priority, I no longer cared. You don't have to give up what you want, just give him what he wants. I hope that makes sense, it confused me for a LONG time

Thanks,<p>I truly understand what you mean and agree. I also can relate to your situation. Your wife wasn't really thinking "I like my friends more than spt_fl", but she was probably excited because it was something different, outside the routine. Not that "routine" means boring! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] But I can see how it would feel from your side - her excitement at seeing her friends would really rub you the wrong way. Mainly, because the #1 issue for YOU (feeling neglected) was topmost in your mind, you were bound to notice it and be hypersensitive to it. That's what's happening to my H - years of feeling like 2nd fiddle has made him legitimately hypersensitive.<p>On the other hand, MY #1 issue in our marriage is all the years communicating feelings ineffectively. I have a lot of built up resentment about what he has said (and not said) in the past. So when we try to communicate and he uses certain trigger phrases, it really causes a hypersensitive reaction in me. <p>So what you're calling a pissing match is each of us bumping heads on our individual "hot spots". We somehow have to break this cycle. I believe he has improved a LOT in communication and I think I've improved a lot in meeting his needs. So we are getting better. It's just that once in a while, we get stuck and really have a hard time using the POJA. I get so tired of this cycle. Sometimes, (well maybe lots of times) I get stubborn and feel like I don't want to listen to him unless he can say it right! I know that's the wrong attitude...<p>Wish us luck! I know that we will get over this episode, but I feel so futile about the next one. I feel that despite my best efforts, I'm bound to hurt his feelings and he will lash out at me again in a negative way. Each time this happens, I feel a little less positive about the future. But I'm not giving up [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I can relate! I have a hobby that consumes from 12-20 hours a week, year-round, and it's been a source of such frustration that the activity itself has become a major love buster for my wife. It's really not about the TIME. With that in mind, I suggest reconsidering the Policy of Joint Agreement. I can't belive I'm saying that because I was less than enthusiastic about putting any limits on my own hobby!!! Still, discussing the issue in those terms helped my wife realize she needed to be more specific about what she wants in return for my continuation of my hobby. It's still an issue, but it's not a show-stopper any more. Now we can work on BIGGER problems. Great... [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

I have to be careful with hobbies also. I'm really into radio, brewing beer, photography,and coffee roasting. It's very easy for me to just disappear in my cave & fiddle with these things. And that's what I used to do a lot, which of course helped create conditions in my marriage which led me here to MB.com [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] . <p>What keeps me out of trouble is to demonstrate that, given a certain amount of free time, I will choose to spend part, most, or all of it with her--before she would even have to ask or even think about asking or being irritated. It's plan A!!! Harmony abounds! We spend lots more nice time together, and time we spend with our hobbies & other interests is guilt-free for both of us!

Rusty,<p>I liked your comment about a plan A. For those who tend to the problem that causes the spouse to feel 2nd, that is a very good solution. As I have explained to my W, I don't expect you to abandon the things that are important to you, but I am the one you married, I am the one you committed to and I used to be someone that you wanted to be around. I have been guilty of saying go marry your friends (or whatever).<p>If a person in that situation were to actively plan A their spouse on a consistent, but not constant basis, it would probably eliminate the problem.<p>When I am not feeling vulnerable that way, the spouse's wants not only decrease as a concern, but actually, I feel a want for her to feel happy with them. Can you say wonderful win win?<p>Tired,<p>I know that this is little consolation, but since you are the one here and trying, I can help you to see some of this. If you H wants to post, there are some very smart people here that would love to do nothing more than help the two of you have the marriage that you dreamed of when you got married. I do hope that you know that you have nothing but my best wishes for you!

Hi,
Thanks for all the input on this post. I'm tbt's husband. She asked me to look over this post. I hope it's ok to reply too. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
I spend most of my MB time on another forum.<p>spt_fl, I very much relate to your replies regarding how you felt. I have a history of burrying my concerns with our relationship in the past. Which led to me resenting things, withdrawing, not meeting tired's needs, etc, etc, etc.. I've been trying to learn how to express these things in a way that doesn't cause us to get into these situations. I have very limited success. In many way's, I feel rather misrepresented in the above post in the sense that, to me, I was trying very hard to be respectfull. Not raising my voice, waiting for responses. I try to say things a three times in my head to help me identify and fix any emotional spin. I try to immediately stop and appologizing when I do interrupt. My conclusions to date are that I really just don't get it. I have a lot of trouble understanding how my words will be percieved. I have no doubt that these conversations feel terrible to my wife and want to find a way to make these interactions better. We have tried mirroring which helps keep things from escalating, but even when things go well, I feel like I am tortureing her by wanting to discuss anything about our relationship.<p>I know I have some anger and resentment regarding the time issue. I get especially resentfull when I hear of all the things she has given up on my account. I see many other things in her life which she does by choice, but I feel like I need an appointment to have a realtionship with her.<p>I feel there are two issues. One has to do with differences in how much time we need together to feel connected. It's clearly the reason that I am beginning to feel resentment towards the hobbie. <p>I also feel there is a more general issue that arises fairly consistantly when I express problems or concerns I am having that involve our relationship. I tell her how I'm feeling and she responds with what feels (to me) to be the reasons that my feeling are not accurate. She has asked me to tell her what to do to remedy the situation. When I try suggesting solutions she says it feels like a selfish demaind to her. I get in what feels like a catch 22 between disrespectful judgements (telling her how it feels to me) and selfish demands (telling her what I think might solve a problem).<p>
Anyhow, this is some of how things are feeling from my point of view. I do have a few questions if anyone can comment.<p>spt_fl, what were the things that allowed you to feel less jealous of your wifes activities?<p>spt_fl&totally, were there any specific things you did in terms of methods or way's to better organize or communicate that helped you with this situation?<p>Anyone have any suggestions, methods, books, or exercises on how to improve our verbal communications when dealing with sensitive topics?<p>Has anyone ever felt in a catch 22 between 'disrespectful judgements' and 'selfish demands'? Any insight regarding this?<p>Thanks.

You said: "Which led to me resenting things, withdrawing, not meeting tired's needs, etc, etc, etc.. I've been trying to learn how to express these things in a way that doesn't cause us to get into these situations."<p>I recognize this. I still deal with resentment at times. You can deal with resentment to a degree, but only a degree. Sometimes it pops out. Your spouse needs to understand that over time, that will happen less and less. You have to try to control it and she needs to understand that despite your attempts to control it, it will happen. You guys love one another and are both trying, sometimes you just have to give one another a little slack.<p>You said "I feel like I am tortureing her by wanting to discuss anything about our relationship."<p>I felt this way too. I have said the same things over and over and over to the point that it even pisses me off to hear me complain. Fact is, if you are complaining about the same things, it is because they are still unresolved.<p>You said "I see many other things in her life which she does by choice, but I feel like I need an appointment to have a realtionship with her."<p>This is the quandry isn't it? You feel neglected and second (or less) place. Is that about it? You need to feel that you are sometimes and I strongly emphasize SOMETIMES, that you take precedence over everything else. It probably wasn't the thing to say, but I have pointed out to my W that if I went and got a girlfriend, her priorities would instantly change. <p>You said "I feel there are two issues. One has to do with differences in how much time we need together to feel connected. It's clearly the reason that I am beginning to feel resentment towards the hobbie."<p>Understand that the resentment is misdirected. You aren't actually upset about the hobby as much as you are upset that this hobby seems so much more important to her than you. I think that what you have to find is a way to communicate to your W in a way that she can really feel. Try to find an analogy that she can really understand. That took me a long time to do. She is hearing your words and trying to understand, but the real feeling of what you are saying isn't being communicated. Is there anything in her life or past that you can use as an example that can demonstrate via her own feelings what you are feeling? For example, if her dad was distant, she can understand her own feeling about that and such. <p>You said "I also feel there is a more general issue that arises fairly consistantly when I express problems or concerns I am having that involve our relationship. I tell her how I'm feeling and she responds with what feels (to me) to be the reasons that my feeling are not accurate."<p>I recall this one. Let's see, I work to figure out how to express my feelings to you, which is no easy task and then you immediately dismiss me as some sort of idiot who can't see that I am completely wrong. Is that the one? Lets be realistic here...what the base problem here is that you want time with your W, you want time where your W is enthusiastic to be with you, right? Understand that she is seeing this attempt as a threat against something that she wants. She simply doesn't want to give you that time and effort at the loss of whatever it is she has to give up to do it. That is what I call a brick wall or in business terms, a deal breaker. You can't live without an honest, whole relationship with your W and she doesn't feel that she can live without the amount of time that she wants to spend on this hobby. I understand your feeling about being told all of the things that she has given up. This is one of the areas of confusion that I and my W had. It isn't about what your W is giving up, you don't care about that. It is really about getting what you want. If she gives nothing up, but you get what you want will you be happy?<p>spt_fl, what were the things that allowed you to feel less jealous of your wifes activities?<p>When I became a priority, which occurred just immediately prior to the door whacking my butt on the way out.<p>Has anyone ever felt in a catch 22 between 'disrespectful judgements' and 'selfish demands'? Any insight regarding this?<p>I don't want to be too tough on anyone here, ok? I want to give you two basic suggestions to handle the talking part and then jump into what I think is really going on here. Understand that I have dealt with this, but I am just some guy on the web. You and your W have to decide what is best for you two. <p>My first suggestion is that you combine the mirroring, which is a pain in the butt with whispering. When you talk, don't do it in the car or in the living room. Lie down on the bed with one another and whisper. It is really hard to get overly pissy when you are whispering. Whispering also makes it more difficult to listen and thus, requires more focus.<p>Second suggestion is for hubby. Stop talking about your feelings as if they were someone else's. Try to communicate not the why of what you feel, but the emotion of it. Your W is hard wired to understand feelings. You need to communicate the incredible pain that this can cause.<p>This is what I feel, based on both of your inputs that is really going on. W, you have hobbies that mean a lot to you. You want to spend time on them and your participation is important to you. Nobody wants to take that away from you. What your H wants is your honest time, love and concern in reasonable amounts. It is not so much that you spend too much time on hobbies as much as it is that he is coming in as unimportant. He is feeling that you are neglecting his needs in favor of your hobbies and that when he voices his concerns, you are blowing his concerns off as unimportant and unreal. What he feels is real and it hurts and you are the cause of it. Lets take a look at what you have going on and where it is going. Your H has needs and whether you feel they are reasonable or not, he has them. He doesn't feel that you are treating them as important and a priority in your life, which makes him feel unimportant to you. Unless that is addressed, eventually, you have drawn a line in the sand and the only power he ever can actually exercise is to leave you. His needs are just as important as your's. You can respond to those needs or eventually, you can wave goodbye. That's it and it is just a matter of time.<p>For the W, ask yourself a couple of questions and be real honest with yourself.<p>How would you feel if your needs weren't being met? Would you care why they weren't being met? Look around MB. This place is full of women with Hs that spend 0 time with them. You have an H that is trying.<p>Make a log of the time that you actually spend on other things and the amount of time that you spend with H. Does the time seem reasonable?<p>Do you have the marriage that you wanted and does he? If he feels that he doesn't have the marriage he wants, he will eventually go find one that he does.<p>Is he being as disrespectful as you think, or are you focusing on that as a way to shift the focus from what his problems are?<p>Hope some of this helps!

I was feeling better yesterday, and today I feel worse again. SayTheWords, I shouldn't have asked you to read this, I think it's made it worse. Here's how I feel after reading today's contributions:<p>It's clear that I have no right to ask for respectful, loving discussion, and that the entire responsibility of our relationship rests on my shoulders. I have to meet his needs, but it's totally ok for him to lovebust repeatedly. I have to apologize when I disappoint him, but he doesn't have to apologize when he lovebusts me with disrespectful judgments. When he complains about me, it's not ok for me to disagree with his perspective, or to ask him to take some responsibility and give me more specific guidelines. It's not ok to try to work out a POJA. I'm just supposed to "know what he needs" and "prioritize him", figure it out all by myself. <p>When I complain to him about his communication, though, he's allowed to disagree with me and claim he didn't use disrespectful judgments. I know that his need is incredibly strong, but so is MINE. I have the need to feel safe and not walk on eggshells every day, fearful that I will not meet his need. Fearful that he will get quiet, then when I ask what's wrong he will lash out at me. Frantic to avoid the inevitable 3 days of bashing my head bloody against the wall to try to communicate with someone who doesn't speak my language and doesn't feel it's a PRIORITY to try! Someone who is so wrapped up in feeling neglected that he doesn't realize it's this VERY CYCLE that pushes me away time and time again. THAT IS MY NEED ABOVE ALL ELSE.<p>I am sorry, but I had to vent. I am sorry to everyone here - I don't think it's really appropriate to have a public fight on this forum. I'm still not giving up, but at this moment I am very angry. I promise I will calm down and try again.