We have been married 20 years. We both seem to agree that we have great sex and have always been pretty good at being able to talk things out.<p>Five years ago he had a relationship. There was devastation on both parts. We can't necessarily empathize with eachother's emotions or pains suffered at the time, but we recognize and are careful not to minimize what the other went through.<p>More recently, we have both come to feel I may be entering menopause, and are taking things in stride. Where sex has been affected, we are finding solutions and talking things out.<p>A few years ago, we tried a couples club, including swinging. I think we've identified that his interest was all about the sex (for us both), while mine was more lead by the wrong reasons... a hurtful state of not really caring what I did, or knowing what I needed at that time in my life. It was a time of great confusion for me. I don't feel regret for what happened, but I want it put behind for many reasons.<p>Over the past couple years, we have had some pretty severe arguements over this topic. He wants to go back and I don't. He is the type of person who gets mad and/or says hurtful things when he feels he's up against a wall. Since that adds to my anxiety about the whole matter, I thought this was an important to mention, including telling me that I, alone, was not enough (sexually) for him, which he later took back. After that point, I told him if he had made a mistake in marrying me or if his feelings grew toward that life style while mine didn't... that I had no choice but to let him go if that's what he needed, the alternative being... staying together with me fullfilled, but him not and that's not fair for anybody.<p>More currently, he has presented me with a compromise, which is to go to the club for the environment, but only have sex with eachother. I have expressed that the whole situation brings back bad memories and pain of various types. Things that bring hurt I don't want to endure again. I question his persistance over something that envelopes such pain for me and am completly frazzled at the notion that this particular sexual desire can take presidence in his mind over my well-being. I feel he loves me more than that, therefore I feel he must truely have no clue just how tied up my insides are over this.<p>Bear in mind, I'm not looking for badgering over this. We've been together 25 years, and with all we have invested in eachother and endured together, I feel our marriage is worth every effort to save, I just feel that with all we've weathered, he is asking more of me than I am capable of in an area that has incorporated so much hurt. I have also considered that maybe it was me who opened a Pandora's box by ever going in the first place. I really don't know what to do.

gosh. i don't know where or what to say really. i just want you to know that i feel for your pain & confusion. i am by far no expert, but this just doesn't look healthy to me. i can't even begin to imagine the "swinging" thing. i guess it happens...but do relationships really work durring & after that?? i wish you all the luck in the world. search this sight, maybe there's something her that can help you out. i guess i belive very deeply that sex is an act of love, so it is something only to be shared by your mate. anything else is just wrong. i hope the best for you.

Hello, I am the boring back to basics guy. I discovered this site after reading one of Dr Harleys books. And ever since I read posts like yours of pain and panic that comes of not knowing there is a problem and not understanding, it let alone know how to fix it. So READ THE BOOKS! "Love Busters" teaches us about our bad habbits that destroy romantic love and how to eliminate them from our relationships. "His Needs Her Needs" teach us how to meet each others needs and to build up romantic love. I recomend you order the books (online here or amazon) and until they come in read "the basics" until they come in. There is lots of other good materiel here but get the books, read them (I recomend LB first), both of you.
Also while you are waiting for the books download the printer friendly versions of "Love Busters Survey" or is it questionaire? Any way and the printfriendly version of "emotional needs survey" and both of you fill them out. These will give you a clue to your problems.
In closing I will remind you that our creator God intended for couples to be in what we call today "a commited monogomous relationship". Us old fashiond people call it marriage. In marriage we are committed to a contract for life that we will "forsake all others". After reading the books together you two will be ready to make intelligent decisions regarding the rest of your lives.
Marriage is one place where ignorance is not bliss.
May God be with you both.

Just so you know, I do believe in monogamy. On the issue of swinging, I can't honestly say if I would have tried it or not, had it not been for our circumstances. People deal with personal failure in many ways and that's how I felt at the time. The pain ran very deep, but I had no outlet. I didn't want our children or anyone to know we were in trouble, and I couldn't keep crying to my husband because that would've been destructive to his own repair, besides the fact he was on the road most of the time. I won't go into all the details, but simply said... Looking back, I realize I internalized most of it and took it out on myself.<p>I agree that sex involves love and romance and I'm in love with my husband. That in itself is a reason I could not swing as a life style. A large part of the enjoyment I get from sex between us is a result of the love and connection that fuels it. I also know the rare goodness of true love and the mistake of jeopardizing that. With that said, in order to enjoy sex with another partner, I'd have to have feelings for him and that's something I won't let myself do.<p>Don't get me wrong, sex is fun too. So whether it's rubs under the table at a restaurant... not wearing panties under my dress... being nude on the beach, love oils... whatever, doing stuff like that is important too, not to mention, it makes for great foreplay. So you understand, I'm not a prude, I just know that - with that other situation and all it holds, the whole idea of it evokes too much history and when it comes to those issues, I'm not looking for thought provokers... I'm looking to move on, and there are other avenues.<p>Maybe it sounds silly, but I could never blame my husband directly for what happened or we wouldn't have made it. To avoid that, I assigned blame to other people and/or situations or circumstances, and that's where I left it. I don't know if that was right or wrong, but it was the safest thing for me to do, and I believe that by doing that, it kept my intensions strong and my attention focused on helping him and saving us.<p>As for reading, I spent all day on this web site, in fact my husband did too. We agreed it was a good site. I also let him read my post before I sent it. <p>I read the section on repairing after one has had a relationship, and was reassured to find (the length of) my "hauntings" are normal. By the same token, his fear that I might never be free of it... and so neither would he... is normal too. As long as we know it's normal and will pass, we'll be ok. I had also read (some time ago), that more than 95% of couples who don't seek counselling after something like that, fail and divorce within a year, but we are still here, so we must've done something right. And I don't take that for granted either, which is why... even when I can't agree, I try hard not to discount what he thinks.<p>I read the section on emotional needs and I agreed with it, though it was also dealing only with basic issues. It said nothing about one meeting another's need through self-compromise. <p>As for the quiz, I did print 2 copies yesterday, but we haven't taken it yet.<p>I suppose it's important to say, my husband is the type who pushes when he's frustrated. I know this about him. But when he reaches that point, often that means there's a lot more underlying. I can be the same. He also tends to say things that sting when he's angry. Maybe that's something he and I can try to work on.<p>I've thought non-stop for 2 days, and I know that something he worries about, is getting older, or that life will pass him by. This was mentioned throughout the arguement as well... adventure seeking, etc. I don't worry as much about aging and am not as concentrated on persuing this or that in the way of a time-line. Maybe that's fueling the core of this whole thing for him... maybe I've inadvertently made him feel he's alone. I'll have to make sure he knows he's not. Again, maybe this sounds strange, but after all the dark times, I feel protective over him in certain ways... I imagine he does over me as well. And if there's something wrong and I can't help him, I feel frustrated and vice-versa. I'm not really sure if I posted for an answer, or just to see it all in black and white, but I appreciate the feedback.

hi Brae--<p>I think I can understand many of the feelings you and your H have experienced. We are swingers but are currently inactive. I view swinging as a lifestyle but tend to consider it a passing phase, at least for me. Second marriage for both of us. We began our relationship with an open interest IN swinging, but my "walk on the wild side" began as my first marriage was ending in infidelity (WS and BS)...so I think I can understand your mindset when you embarked on your exploration of swinging. I also do not regret our experiences. We do include swinging scenarios in many of our favorite fantasies.<p>We still attend couples' parties, having made many platonic friends in swingers' circles. I'm sure it's fairly obvious that we don't "partake" any more but they put up with us nicely anyway. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] It IS possible to attend parties and not actually swing, should you and your H decide to consider them purely social events. Probably the same with the couples' clubs you've experienced, there's never any pressure and "no means no."<p>I think I can also understand your communication difficulties in general and over that subject as well. My H is Italian and ooooh-boy!-can he pop off with some hurtful stuff when he's angry or upset. If he were responding to your post, he'd probably tell you he only retaliates after I've said something hurtful to him. Of course, that's how arguments go anyway...back and forth...well, we were able to utilize MB concepts to STOP the vicious cycle. Hopefully, you can too. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>One thing you and I can discuss if it helps?--It IS "just sex" for a man interested in swinging. Being male, he's wired that way anyway, a greater ability to separate love and lust than we females have...we being the more emotionally attuned gender. Speaking in generalities, of course. I have a feeling your H loves you very much. But with our male/female differences, it's probably as difficult sometimes for him to empathize with your feelings, as it is for you in reverse. We've had these same conversations, and believe me, if my H was the only one making decisions about swinging, we'd be VERY active now! <p>But it's not just one in a couple making decisions; there are two people to consider. The POJA (Policy of Joint Agreement) - "Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse." Some of my buddies here at MB think I bend the intention of the POJA a bit to include swing or not-to-swing agreements (true, Harley is against swinging as are the vast majority of posters here) but I can honestly say, it works extremely well for us. <p>POJA-ing isn't easy at first. Matter of fact, discussing the MB concepts themselves actually became one of our bigger arguments! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] But we kept trying and found that by following the concepts, just as Harley says, neither of us gain at the expense of the other and we've learned to communicate respectfully. Once you get the hang of it, things just get better and better. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Please do fill out the Lovebusters and EN Questionnaires, both of you. This will help identify areas on which you need to concentrate, and it will help greatly in your communication efforts. <p>How wonderful that your H is aware of your post here. Encourage him to post also, or even better, post as a couple. My H doesn't post much himself, but he reads quite often.<p>Read how to successfully negotiate, found in the MB concepts section. It might be encouraging to know that once you eliminate Lovebusters in your conversations, you'll be that much closer to negotiating resolutions with the interests of BOTH equally important. You already have a good start to brainstorming solutions to the swinging problem. Toss out more ideas and keep talking about what is best for you as a couple. Your first three suggestions are already on the table: 1) swing; 2) don't swing; 3) go to parties and only sex with each other. I'm sure you had your own set of rules when involved in swinging anyway...you know that there are many levels within swinging itself. Talk about everything and work toward understanding each other's points of view. Express first, resolve second. <p>Swinging is a complicated subject involving many feelings and concerns. It won't be as easy, to develop understanding and true consideration of each other, as something like deciding who does the dishes. It WILL take some time to resolve this. But remember, both your feelings are very important and worthy of attention (I note in your post your caring concern over his feelings, makes me smile--but hey, quit telling him he can go his own way since he wants to swing and you don't, the key is to resolve the problem TOGETHER, it affects BOTH of you).<p>While you are working toward resolution of your feelings and what actions you will take or not, this is what I recommend. Do not swing. One of you is not enthusiastic about it. So you don't. Period. That's not to say that you can't discuss it, please DO, over a period of time...while you are resolving other issues as well. Your H will probably find you more receptive to discussing swinging if he utilizes the art of respectful persuasion. He can nicely try to persuade, but he must accept a gracefully offered "no." [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Have you two ever considered just using swinging ideas in fantasies? By the way, we have also gone to "sex clubs" and before walking in the door agreed no sex with others. <p>Welcome to the board. I usually hang in the Emotional Needs section if you'd like to join me/us there, and I'll check back here specifically on this thread.<p>I think you're already on the road to better communication. Although my post centered on the swinging issue, it's great that you two are able to discuss many underlying issues that could be affecting your relationship.

Hi Laura,<p>I appreciated your reply. Funny thing, my husband is Italian too, and probably not much different. The last blow out yes... was because I said something, which this time I actually did... he screamed at me... I said F*** Y**, and there she blows. I should start calling him Mount Etna. Isn't that a volcano in Italy? lol.<p>I understand the (general) men/women ideas on love/sex, and coupled with the older problems in our marriage... I'm sure my husband sees this whole thing as a double-whammy. Actually, I'm the type who would do anything for him, but when it comes to sacrificing myself emotionally... I just can't do it. It's too dangerous for me and ultimately for us, and that's not really what he wants either. Considering what you say about you and your X, I'd have to imagine you've gone through some emotional roller-coasters yourself... it makes it hard to find yourself. Then once you do, there are some places/scenarios, you never want to revisit because of the baggage they hold for you.<p>There is also much more involved, but if the conversation got that far, I'd have to email you... some things aren't meant to be posted. However, as I said, there are some memories, you just don't want to relive... it's counter-productive to say the least. Hurtful as they are, my husband and I, at one time or another, have put all these issues on the table anyway, and that's what really matters.<p>It's interesting you considered it a passing phase. I felt the same. Try it to see what it's like, then the curiosity has been satisfied. I won't put words in his mouth... but I thought that was his original thinking too... maybe I'm not remembering right, or maybe my earlier comment about opening a Pandora's box has some validity. As for using it as fantasy... I'm open to that. In fact we have. However, this presents another issue. His thinking is that the only reason behind fantasizing, is because it's something you eventually want to do. My thinking is that... while that may be true of some fantasies, it's not true of all of them. In other words, you can do or be anything in your fantasies, even if you don't want to physically experience them, because they're safe just being a turn-on in your mind. I have had some fantasies realized, to find they were much more exciting to just "think about"... hence, no more fantasy! lol. That is to say, I believe some things are a turn-on for the very reason that you've never tried them. In that case, imagination of the unknown is more powerful than the act itself.<p>In the last few days, all he and I have been doing is IMing. Sometimes doors are easier to open when you're not face-to-face. In the old days, it was written letters... whatever works. Of course eventually, you have to sit down together, but sometimes it's easiest to start a talk when you have an eraser, you know what I mean? Anyway, as an alternative to using the club as a turn on, I've been talking about other things we've done or can do in an attempt to let him know I'm not shutting down on "him", just on one idea. Cabin fever is rough too though, so with summer coming it will be a lot easier to have a little fun under the stars so to speak.<p>I definitely want to check out the Policy of Joint Agreement. I have to tell you, as to what you said about "respectful persuasion", he can certainly start out that way. It's accepting the "graceful no" that causes the fireworks. I think even he will chuckle on that note. Having what might be a similar husband, maybe you have also had this experience lol.<p>Despite everything, our communication is strong and so is our committment to eachother. And yes, I send him all my letters before I post them. There's no secrecy, and after all, this is about "us", not "me". Long ago, I asked him to go to couselling, but he wouldn't, or couldn't. I think we needed it bad. We are lucky to come out as clean as we are, but the road has probably been much longer this way. He mentioned counselling more recently and I had to be honest that it was a big decision because it was a 'definite' that we were both going to have to expose and relive all of the past that we have worked so long and carefully to put behind us. With that said, and most of that managed and behind, I feared that counselling at this point might re-open wounds that may never close.<p>We are going to take the quiz... the one I printed is the Love Busters Questionaire. If there are others you think are pertinent, please let me know. There was one that I saw... can't remember, but I know it was the one that couples would fill out before counselling... something like that. I read through it and we both already know all that stuff about eachother since we've been together since ages 12 and 15... it was about schools attended, etc., so maybe that's more for couples who got together later in life.<p>I'll also check out the Emotional Needs board. Anyway, thanks again. Also, my husband may post, but if so, it will probably be under this name (brae).<p>Barb

Hi Barb and Mount Etna! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Oh yes, we've been on emotional roller coasters...up and down and all around. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>His thinking is that the only reason behind fantasizing, is because it's something you eventually want to do.<hr></blockquote><p>We had difficulty working through that too. Same thing, H said it frustrated him because he thought when we talked fantasies it was working toward reality. I explained to him when *I* was sharing a swinging fantasy with him it was actually with faceless extra players. And the socials! When we would leave he would say "Why are we still going? We don't swing, it's a waste of time." Finally, communicated that one to him, "Because I really like to go and dance and be with our friends, thank you for taking me!" He did have a point - most of those people WERE there to make a connection. I told him that I preferred to keep the idea open, but if he really had to have a realistic view of the chances I'd be agreeable, then the answer was 99.9% not gonna happen. That helped him understand that to me, the socials are not the appetizer, they're part of the main course of US enjoying time together.<p>Oh yes, I know what you mean about acting out fantasies, and the mind game of it being more thrilling than actuality. I definitely have a few fantasies I would NEVER want to really enact!<p>I think as couples we have a lot of similarities. When H and I get upset, I'd rather IM each other while he's at work. Takes the tones out of it and we can just absorb the words while we try to reach understandings. <p>Ya know, counseling really isn't a bad idea. We've had counseling. H didn't want to get into the swinging stuff with the counselor, but we did. And it really was okay...good counselor, she picked up on H's discomfort and it didn't become a detailed or drawn out accounting. But I think it helped with what direction she took us.<p>I'd suggest you go ahead and fill out the Emotional Needs Questionnaire too, then discuss your answers. The interesting part about that questionnaire is that you list your needs by importance. You probably DO know each other's needs pretty well but will find some surprises too. It helps us prioritize how best to meet each other's needs. I learned a few things I was doing "for H"...which I THOUGHT were appreciated, really weren't, because they weren't as high on his EN list...I should have been spending time on OTHER things that made greater deposits in his love bank.<p>Feel free to e-mail to discuss more personal details if you ever need an unbiased yet understanding ear. Hope you two have a great weekend!

Brae,<p>I don't know how I got to this section of MB. I clicked on the wrong line. But, I read your post and thought I would reply. I don't have any experience with swinging, and I am afraid your post wasn't very clear about some of your issues. So I won't address them directly.<p>I thought I would expand on somethings Lucks said.
One, thing that the Harley's really push here besides the POJA is honesty; "radical honesty".<p>I get the sense that you and your H do talk and talk about most subjects. That is very very good. But, I also sense that you and he may not have been so honest with yourselves that you can adequately express the issues that bother both of you.<p>For example, you mentioned your H's age as perhaps being a contributing factor to him wanting to swing again. I don't know how old he is but I can vouch for the fact that men need more stimulus to get going. But, I am not talking physical, I am talking mental. As our hormones, start to drop, the simple things that used to turn us on, don't do it. If W is not easily turned on or her desire has dropped there is a problem, because the H cannot make it up by being easily into having sex. He needs more as well.<p>The guy wants to do it, but somehow the key thing that would really get him going is not there. THe things that used to do it, don't quite work as they did.<p>Now I don't know if that is your H's issue or one of them, but he would need to take an honest look at himself and what he feels to explore that. Just as he would to explain the swinging issue.<p>There is also 4 rules for a good marriage that the Harley's espouse. I hope that you and your H look at them and really talk about them. Time, protection, etc. are all very important.<p>Brae, I hope you and your H find what you need here. Lucks is a very good person to be talking to. She has helped a lot of people here and she does know what this site is about.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL<p>Thanks... you present an interesting concept. The reason I feel I'm hitting the big "M" is because of certain changes within, that I don't understand. There isn't a lack of desire, but the motivation needs are different. I couldn't understand it, and he saw it as me withdrawing from him. Since then, I think we've figured out how to understand and help that situation along.<p>I had considered something might be happening within him too, but since so many sights talk about men having a reduced sex drive due to their testosterone levels dropping, I didn't think that was pertinent to him. Maybe what you say makes better sense... and it's possible he's going through something similar to what I am in that department. Maybe, as you say... what motivates him has changed.<p>I haven't read back, but I think I said that I've discussed other avenues with him because I do want him (and us) to be happy and I love doing a the "out of the norm" too, I just want to have fun with it and that's impossible if I'm not comfortable. I also think frequency needs to be worked on... idle minds and all that. Sorta like a chocolate lover who only gets it once a week... spends six days drooling and only one day in heaven, lol. That can make a person resentful or demanding too.<p>We've discussed that (frequency) and we both agree. If it's not the kids or little league or scouts or his job, it's the fact that one or both of us are exhausted and fall asleep. We know this happens and we have to expect that to be ok sometimes... life is like that... but we can't except it all the time... we know that too.<p>Anyway, he's on vacation this week, so I'm not spending much time on the computer, but I'll check back soon.<p>Thanks again for the thought... we'll talk about that.<p>Barb

And how is Brae's vacation going? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Laura...<p>It's going... going.... almost gone, lol. This is the short run down.<p>Monday - our twins were sick
Tuesday - flat tire... one twin still sick
Wednesday - both twins home due to report card day
Thursday - both teen-agers home due to report cards
Friday - another flat tire (off to Sears lol),one teen home (over slept) and twins had a 1/2 day, so they came home early?!? Twins had a ballgame, 5:30 to 7:30... husband's game 6:30 to 8:30. It was so cold, I couldn't feel my toes. So to cap off the evening, we all (the team)went out for drinks.<p>We also spent the whole week working on crazy stuff for my husband's baseball team (he in the garage, me on the computer), but I'll get to that later.<p>Saturday - (today) Hopefully,we will finally take off on the Harley for a while, then make it out to dinner to celebrate our 21st anniversary which kinda got lost in the shuffle on Thursday.<p>Then tomorrow, it starts again. The twins have a Boyscout car wash from 9am to 1pm and a ball game from 1-3. My husband's game is 5-7 followed by another stop at the sponsors tavern.<p>And then, my friend, the week... the vacation... and my sanity will all be gone LOL<p>What can I say... a day in the life... hehe
Barb

From The Husband<p>Well last night we sat down and did the love buster and emotional needs quiz's. The bottom line was after I spent 2 damn hours answering and going over my answers to be sure I had answered truthfuly and honestly, all was going well and we sat down to go over them with each other. After another two hours of discussion on the first page alone, 1 1/2 hours on her part, we got to a point that I felt would lead to an impasse and ultimatley an arguement, so I commented that this was not getting us anywhere. (time approx. 11:30pm) So to confirm my thoughts I skipped ahead and read her answers to the rest of the questions without discussion. In my opinion, It definetly would have ended up in an arguement, and we would have been up all night without resolving a thing.
After a few minutes of awkward silence she got up and left the room and did not return, I did hear her go out the back door. At this point I fell asleep. This morning I woke up ALONE on the couch and found that our oldest son (who had brought home a terrible report card last week) had not gone to school, when I woke him, he said that "mom said I could stay home today" . This is a perfect example of how my opions are treated, She knew I was upset with our son, and that I had set new rules for him to follow, and warned him to get his grades up, then she tells him it is ok to stay home from school without any discussion with me.
As I was leaving for work, I looked around for the quiz sheets so as to be sure that they were not left out that our children might read them,I could not find them, so I was satisfied that she had put them away. As I walked out the back door to leave, I discovered that she had definetly put them in a safe place, as I saw what remained of the ashs that were left of them in the fire pit in our yard.
This is another example of how my feelings are treated, after hours spent agonizing over theses answers, choosing the right words and writing them down, they were shown a complete lack of importance and BURNED! She chose to do this without consulting me or my permission. Those were my thoughts and feelings and she had no right to do this!
I have, and will continue to pay for a past indescretion, that I have taken complete responsibility for, but in my opinion, she has not taken responsibility for her part, actions or inactions that lead up to this, and therefore has associated all blame to one issue in order to absolve herself.
If anyone responds to this post and wants to be taken seriously, it would be inadvisable to use cutesy terms regarding the POJA, love bank deposits and the like, or any referances to God and the Bible! As should be obvious, I am at the point of complete frustration.<p>Brae's Husband

From Brae's Husband (again)<p>Well I just had a phone call fron Brae, and am wiping egg from my face! Talk about jumping to conclusions! It seems that while sitting outside last night she decided it would be a good time to burn some old bills. What a time to do that huh? Please disregard that portion of last post.
Sorry Hon.<p>Signed<p>Brae's(add your choice of mixed Metaphors)Husband

Dear hubby,<p>Despite the egg on your face, this is no yoke.<p>I love you and would never burn what's in your heart. I know I just IMed that the reason I went out the back door, was to lock the garage, but I thought I'd post that before someone hammered me for "walking out on you".<p>Walking out on eachother has never gotten us anywhere and caused a lot of hurt. If I knew you were thinking that, I woulda told you what I was doing... sorry. That's one thing I wish we could get away from... it seems at times we are more apt to be suspicious of eachother or jump to conclusions, than to think the best. Why do we do that? It's the best feeling in the world when you and I are at peace... with eachother, about the kids... etc.<p>I know you disagreed with my allowing our son to stay home. Since missing school is not his problem, I didn't think of it as a reward, but I did feel frustrated knowing that everyday counts, but am also at the point where I feel that taking a day off is not what will make or break him. He's 17 and has to take control of his own destiny. I've said all I can say (to him)... the rest is up to him. I must add, I also feared the prospect of having to drive him at that point and was too tired (up til 2am). I too misunderstood some things, like I thought you slept on the couch by choice, so I had a good cry which left me with a pounding headache this morning. Little misunderstandings turn into big hurts, that's why when I woke up feeling bad today, I called you at work. I didn't want either of us to spend the day feeling bad if it was based on misconceptions.<p>To try to redeem myself and further reinforce your position, I'm having our boy clean the basement while he's home today. He's also going to do a couple other odds and ends for me.<p>We will keep talking... we always do. But for now, thanks for changing the saddness on my face to a smile this morning and as always... I love you.<p>Barb aka Brae

ok you two...don't give up...this is the hard part but where you make good progress....<p>You are going to have to bite the bullet and meet each others ENs if you are gonna make it. NOw you can make it a case of "who flinches first" or you can each decide to start unilaterally...and then not keep score.<p>It's up to you guys...and as one going through this myself (I have filled out the EN Q, she does it next week for our MC)...I am really pulling for you guys!!!!!!!!

Hi Barb and Mr. Brae--<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>...so I commented that this was not getting us anywhere. (time approx. 11:30pm) So to confirm my thoughts I skipped ahead and read her answers to the rest of the questions without discussion. In my opinion, It definetly would have ended up in an arguement, and we would have been up all night without resolving a thing.<hr></blockquote><p>I would suggest a different approach, uhm, NEXT time you get frustrated in a relationship discussion..."Honey, it's late. I'm getting tired and less able to give your thoughts and feelings the attention they deserve. I would like to continue discussing this tomorrow night, if it's okay with you?" Even deciding on how much time to allot to the evening's installment might be helpful.<p>That's what you meant, right? Not that the discussion itself wasn't getting you anywhere, but the length was getting tiring and perhaps the conversation was going a bit off-track with frustrations?<p>Wouldn't it be compartmentally nice if all things could be solved in one brief sit-down discussion. Dealing with facts only, maybe. But in a relationship, we all have pesky feelings to resolve too. It takes time to wander through them, particularly for females. Amazing isn't it, how much time us gals demand to feel better. But look on the bright side, isn't it worth it? Hmm? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Barb, apologize for your unilateral decision letting S stay home. You may have already but it's unclear in your post, only that you realize he disagreed and all the reasons WHY you allowed it. Psst, if S was physically able to clean out the basement, why did you allow him to stay home? <ducking> (feel free to jump on our ongoing thread and poke at me!!--TomsThoughts under the EN section) [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Mr. Brae, are you calmed down enough to take me seriously if I DO use those cutesy MB terms? <looking around, MB site, yeah, right place> No prob keeping religion out of it. You two sound SO much like us. After OUR veer off-tracks over MB convos, we actually found quite a bit of humor in it. Fighting over concepts suggesting ways to better our relationship! muhahaha<p>Our early MB convos ALWAYS went on for hours. Tom would get antsy, then cranky, then splat, "We're not getting anywhere, this is a waste of time." A female's immediate reaction to that? Hmmph! Talking about the RELATIONSHIP is a waste of time, equals our relationship is a waste of time????? Crash, withdrawal. Save yourself a lonely night on the couch by waiting 10 seconds to consider how you're going to WORD what you have to say with the results you WANT. Remember that scene in Terminator when Arnold is facing the scuzzy guy in the hallway? On his vision screen, the options for possible comments pop up, and he chose "Phuque you, *sshole." Now wait, not that one!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Ask Barb to help you write up some ideas for YOUR comment options (but definitely revamp the options to fit the occasion). <p>How about:<p>1. I love you. Can we talk about this more later?
2. This is absolutely fascinating -- wow, look at the time! It's just been racing by....
3. Suddenly, your Pheromones are attracting MY Pheromones, think we should get them together?
4. I like anticipating the next episode of my favorite drama! When can we tune in again?
5. I'm seeing stars and feel queasy, would you help me to the bed? Some TLC will rev my normal Sampson-like qualities.<p>You get the drift. ANYway...it's okay to take breaks from MB lessons too. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Laura,<p>Knew you'd post lol. As I've mentioned my "little league life", so once again I am shortly due at the ball field, but had to type a short note for now.<p>I may be in for a be-heading on this, but I do feel that "yes", he felt<p>"that the discussion itself wasn't getting him anywhere"<p>And so I DID feel brick-walled. I wasn't mad, but frustrated. I've also known him long enough to know, that when he hits that "antsy, then cranky, then splat, "We're not getting anywhere, this is a waste of time."... stage, I generally shut up and leave things be.<p>On the "Barb, apologize for your unilateral decision letting S stay home"
Yes, I did. Also, I didn't "not" seek his opinion on purpose... it's just that those decisions are usually mine (the kids staying home from school). I don't think he generally has a problem with that, but he woke up with several notions that started him out mad. The "son" issue (I think) was just another straw.<p>On the "cleaning the basement", I guess I should have clarified, he asked to stay home because he was very tired... not for sickness. He never asks to stay home for that reason and I (we both) know he has a long day. He leaves for school at 6:45 am and goes until 2:45, then works nights and weekends. And again, his grade problem is due to lack of effort, not days off. Just to give you a picture... he is a Junior and is down 1 credit. His quarter grades were bad, but history denotes he will pull most of them up in time for his final grade. Our position is... Don't add to the (missing) credit you already have , and reiterating there is no graduation next year if he slacks off. Further, I had already told him he will go until he graduates, be it next year (on time), summer school, or the 5 year plan. He's not disagreeable, and not a bad kid... just neglegent with his studies... it's all art. He gets straight A's in that lol.<p>By the way, I especially liked these (and of course the "splat" one)... I think he's planning to use the Sampson one next time lol:<p>3. Suddenly, your Pheromones are attracting MY Pheromones, think we should get them together?<p>5. I'm seeing stars and feel queasy, would you help me to the bed? Some TLC will rev my normal Sampson-like qualities.<p>More of the story. When he came home from work yesterday, I further apologized that he had to start his morning that way... thinking I left him on the couch purposely... burned his questionnaires, and let our boy stay home maybe to spite him.<p>We slept on the (not enough room) couch together last night because "this" time, I tried harder to wake him up. lol. He invited me "in" instead, and so I went. As a result, my "extra arm" syndrome is causing a cramp in my right shoulder, lol, but it was worth it.<p>Tonight we are going on a date... out to dinner, then home for movies I rented.<p>I don't know how to reapproach the questionnaire at this point. We both saw hurtful things in them, but honesty was called for. Once we finished writing them, we really didn't know how to proceed... exchange questionnaires? Read our own to eachother? or what?<p>His idea was to read our own. Maybe we should have done that for the very reason he said... so they weren't just words (which can be misconstrued). But by reading our "own" words to eachother, we could make sure the other was receiving it the way it was intended and watch (be careful) to avoid causing the wrong reaction. I hadn't wanted to do that because some of what I wrote was kinda painful and I didn't want to do a teary eyed thing on him by reading it myself. That frustrates me and it frustrates him. Not sure how or when to take that further.<p>As I said... little league soon, so I have to sign off for now.<p>Barb

Laura<p>I appreciate your input,You guys sound alot like us... she says it would be fun to chat with you. Yeah, I'm calmed down, felt kinda stupid after she told me they were bill's she burned... oh well, it won't be the last time I do or say something stupid! I'll have to work on the phrases you suggested using... I don't think I could say those exact words with a straight face!<p>Our biggest thing is the sex issue, nothing else comes close to this divide, she is this way and i'm that way. To much to put into words rigtht now. I know what her feelings are but I also know that a large part of her reasoning is based on her lack of trust and pain from past circumstances, for her that I am responsible for. Before this all happened, I would never have been confident enough or trusted enough in her to allow her to engauge in sex with another man,(a woman would be a different story, all men are alike!)due to my own insecurities, after all that has transpired I have complete confidence and self assurance that she loves me and will never leave. So my logic is any other man does not pose a threat to us, just as I know, but can't convince her that no other woman can pose a threat. Therefore swinging is just a way to experience new heights of sexual excitment and adventure without risk.
I know she will read this, (so don't get your ego up to high dear) I think she is very sexy, and I am always looking for ways to make her crazy, the higher I can get her, the higher I will get, whether its toys or what have you, to put it bluntly, as far as I would be concerned, in a swinging situation any other man would represent nothing more than a living dildo to assist me in her pleasure. Not that I am completely unselfish here either, but I would want her to have similar feelings, cosequently, I would not want to engauge in any swinging if she did not recieve the same thrill of taking me to higher heights, that would acually have the reverse effect, and I would lose interset in sex.
Ask your H, am I nutz or what?<p>Signed
MT. Etna