after 7 years marriage, after believing my husband alwasy loves me in his own quiet way,although not knowing how to express his feeling he always care about me in his own way, i finally realized that I might be a fool all this time. During these 7 years, whenever we have disagreemtn, quarrel, or cold war, he would never come to break the ice, I am always the one who go to talk to him, and try to reason with him, he alwasy blamed me for being childish, for losing my temper so easily, etc, but, if he can come to talk to me when we have problems, I won't become a "losing temper so easily" person. Last ngiht, we had a similar fight, and he said somethng like "I only tolerate you when I am in a good mood, if I am not, I won't care about you." It sounds like I am being unreasonable at all. God knows how much I love him, how much care I have put on him, only I know. But now i got this. He is 8 years older than me, but he never showed it, he has be equal with me all the time.
I feel so disappointed, my whole heart is hurting, I care about this marriage too much, but how come I got such a husband????

Dear Cloudyheart,

Initiating problem solving discussions is discussed in some of the MB articles on Negotiations.

I take the initiative in my marriage, to try to list out the problems that are coming up, and try to find good times to discuss them, before anyone gets upset.

It sounds like you expect your husband to be like me. That is a nice compliment. But one of the rules that seems to operate in marriages, is that the person who cares about the issue, should ordinarily take the lead in resolving the issue.

Your husband does not seem to mind that you lose your temper, occasionally, but it seems that you would prefer not to lose your temper. I keep a spiral pad in my pocket, and a pen, and when an issue I need to remember comes up, I jot it down, for future reference. I have two large manilla folders full of ideas on my marriage, and when something bothers me, I lay out my papers, to see what my thoughts were on similar issues in the past.

I try not to pay a lot of attention to the words my wife says in arguments, I try to see the direction of her feelings. Your husband may not be perfect, but it seems you could help him to sit down to discuss issues bfore they become exacerbating to you.

Post again, if you want some more questions.

Best wishes,

Quipper,
Married 28 years and still struggling.

Hello Cloudyheart,

Sorry to hear about your pain but I can understand just how you must be feeling. My husband says I am always looking to start a fight but yet I am only wanting to resolve the issues that are causing us problems.

I am realising from all the things that I am reading on MB's that perhaps when I am trying to resolve the problems between us I am stilling blaming, accusing and disrespecting him. I know I have to change in this way. I come from a first marriage where a lot of this was used all the time and I have now started to let all of that affect my second marriage. It is really hard work but like you I really love my husband too.

I too feel so let down by my husband but like you care deeply about my marriage.

I pray that God keeps giving us both strength to have a quiet and humble spirit (even though this is so hard when we are hurting) and that he keeps helping us through our problems, gives us with wisdom and most of that he fills us and our husbands with Love.

Jem24

To Quipper and Jem24
Thank you for sharing your experience with me, it makes me feel that at least somewhere there are poeple who care.

What I don't understand that why is it alwasy us who want to solve the peoblem that spoke first? Why is it always us who try to break the ice? And when you try to talk to the other party, they would say something like it is all your fault. They make you feel like they are the only one who cares and makes change for the marriage and you are the one who is spoiled and not caring. My H blames me for not carig him any more, for not considerate. But god knows how I care about him. Although we have been married for 7 years, I still have the feeling that I can't live without him.

Sometimes I feel my marriage has come to an dead end, no mater how hard I tried it would fail. My H divorced once, when I was dating him, my whole family and friend were against it, my mom even threatned to disown me. But I still married him against all my family's willing. i have been believing for 7 years that I found the right man for me. I can't admit that I made a mistake 7 years ago when I picked him. He is a very responsible man, to outsiders he is alwasy polite and considerate. I still believe he is a nice man, it is just that i can't find the same feeling that I had for him, it hurt me so much that I feel he doesn't care about me any more.

Sorry, I am all babbling and complaining here, if you don't bother to reply, I understand.

Dear Cloudyheart,

Nice to read your post, that you are still trying. Well the basic formula, as you know, is to try to avoid doing things that are love busters, and try to do those things for which you will get credit in your spouse's love bank.

EXCERPT FROM CLOUDYHEART POSTS

I am always the one who go to talk to him, and try to reason with him, he alwasy blamed me for being childish

And when you try to talk to the other party, they would say something like it is all your fault. They make you feel like they are the only one who cares and makes change for the marriage and you are the one who is spoiled and not caring. My H blames me for not carig him any more, for not considerate.

END OF POST EXCERPT

Can you give more details of his blaming? When things start to get out of hand, for me, I try to drop the subject, to wait for a better time. You say that he can sometimes be reasonable. What items are on your wish list?

Today I asked my wife, "What is on your wish list, that I don't know about?" She responded with a couple items.

I thought of going out to lunch with my wife, and having arranged in advance, that I would tell her one thing on my wish list, we would discuss it, then she would tell me one thing on her wish list. Then we would keep alternating.

If your husband is using blaming to the high degree that you seem to be saying he is, then I might suspect Covert Hostility, but you are not telling me about his being secretive or making up big stories. You might look at ALL My Fault, 20197, under Resolving Conflict entitled How Can We Overcome... 7-27-03. Her husband was using blaming to a large extent, and I responded about Covert Hostility.

What do other people say about your husband? What is it that they see, that indicates to them that he is not a good husband for you? What would you like him to change? What would you like him to start doing? What would you like him to stop doing? Have you told him about everthing you want him to change? What have you left out? What is the most important thing you want him to do differently?

How can you work around the blaming aspect of your husband?

Making suggestions to Covert Hostilty, is very dangerous, because they have to think they are smarter than everyone. "I was realy surpised by how much heat builds up when we shut off the air conditioner at night. I feel real stupid, because Dorothy next door said, that she just leaves her air condtioner on low overnight, and her house is cool even after cooking breakfast."

Any suggestion to Covert Hostiltiy needs to be made with the clear understanding that he is smarter than you, and that you do not hold a candle to his intelligence.

Best wishes,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

Dear Cloudyheart,

I thought about my post overnight, and came up with more ideas.

A closer description of Covert Hostility, to your husband, would be in Negotiating, under Stephan, ANNIVERSARY OF COURT...Toward page 4. Stephan's wife accuses him of evil things without cause, and for no apparent reason.

Some people are generally encouraging to others, but there are some people who are seemingly pleasant, but who are actually trying to undermine and discourage other people.

You say that you love your husband. Another way to say that, is, from many personal indicators, you get the idea that your husband will be nice to you. Therefore, you have the expectation that your husband will be nice to you, and you love him. You try to be nice to your husband.

Depression is the failure to adjust expectations to those results actually likely to be obtained.

Let us suppose that your husband is a truly discouraging person, who is very good at disguising his discouraging comments, most of the time. This is why he might blame you for every problem you bring up for problem solving, because he is only interested in discouraging you. He only pretends to be interested in problem solving, until he actually has to start solving problems.

Therefore, it is possible that he is deliberately trying to fool you and everyone else, about his true intentions, of trying to be discouraging to others, and you may have fallen in love with the falsehooods that he uses to try to fool people, into thinking he is a reaasonable person.

In Scientology, covertly discoraging people are called Suppressive Persons. They have a course for about $300 that explains about SP. Suppressive Persons, PTS/SP.

The basic rule for handling Suppressive Persons is to refuse to engage in their discouraging sequences of interrelations.

One option for making your marriage more manageable, is to make up a set of rules for yourself, that will prevent you from stepping into one of your husband's traps, that allows him to be discouraging to you. Also set up a support system, that will substitute for the parts of your marriage that are not working, and augment the aspects of the extra things you need to do to make your marriage work.

1. Never ask your husband what he thinks about a problem.
2. Whenever you propose a better solution to your husband, make it short, quick and then get out of the way, and put your hands over your ears. Expect a tirade of criticism, and just decide in advance to ignore it. Prepare for it to take several times of suggesting a better solution before your husband will pick up on it.
3. Try to always be able to leave the vicinity of your husband, whenever he might go off. If I didn't already mention the books INIMATE ENEMY recommends short, unilateral, separations to let things cool down.

I personally have a telephone editor, a handicapped fellow, I call on the phone, and we go over the wording of suggestions that I am thinking of presenting to my wife. My wife has a short attention span, and a higly uncooperative attitude. I took the name Quipper, because I work at making my sugggestions or comments short and to the point.

Many individuals in Covert Hostility are also Suppressive Persons, and the two concepts are related, but not always identical.

Perhaps that is why your family members warned you against your husband, because they saw through his pretending to be reasonable, and saw him for being a truly discouraging person.

I would prefer that all the ideas I have expressed are incorrect and off base. Please show me I am wrong. But Suppressive Persons and persons in Covert Hostility are difficult to deal with, for most halfway normal people anyway; so it is not surprising that a number of the posts to Marriage Builders, are from normal people trying to keep marriages going, with difficult people.

I don't however, claim that I myself, am that easy to get along with.

Like STARFISH says, if you think I am right, please get a second opinion.

Shout back,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

Dear Quibber,

Thank you so much for your long reply and, most important, your time. I will read your post carefully. I was trying to find the articles you mentioned in your post such as Covert Hostility, and I couldn't find it. You seem to be an old member here, do you know if there is a searching engine in this website?

I am really happy to talk to you, seriously. And I truly thank you for listen to my babbling.

cloudyheart

Dear Cloudyheart,

There is a search engine. It is in very tiny letters at the top of your post in a line of other options. I only know how to search for one category at a time. It has a drop down list of discussion group categories. I get better results using the Member Number, rather than the name.

You can also click on the name of a person, and it will give a screen with a profile. At the top right of the profile screen is something like VIEW RECENT POSTS, again in small lettering.

To print out reference information, you can highlight the text in a post, Left click, hold, drag to the end of the desired text, then release the left click. Next, move your cursor into the highlighted area, right click in the highlighted area, (See a drop-down menu)left click on COPY, open Word, get a new document, Left click your cursor on the new document, and hit PASTE on your top toolbar, in Word. The desired text should now be in a Word document, and you can print or save as you desire.

Let me know some more of what you feel your husband is doing wrong. I'll try to give you some more ideas of how to work around the issues.

My wife started moving some of my papers on my work table in the basement last night. I yelled at her to get out. She gave me a cold stare, and after several minutes, she left. Today, my wife is at work. She turns off her cell phone at work. I left her a message on her cell phone, asked her to follow POJA on my work desk, and explained that it is a real downer to the marriage when she moves my work stuff around, without my enthusastic agreement.

Best Wishes,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling.

<small>[ August 07, 2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Hi Quipper,
Thanks for your reply. Before I start telling you what I think my husband did wrong, I want to tell you that we had a talk last night, actually fighting & yelling first and talking second. He admitted that he has been under very heavy pressure recently and that's the reason he has been acting strangely. I think we came to agreement on some points. Now let me starting complaining about him. Both me and my husband are very sensitive people, we felt in love because we think too much alike, but now this merit turns to disadvantage. Because he is so sensitive that now it turn out that no matter what I say, even in a very minor irrating tone, he would say I am have a temper. And he is such a traditional Chinese guy that he said deep in his heart he can't accept that woman has worse temper than man. But, Quipper, most time I am irriated because my H can't show a bit like man, which means show some caring for me. I think he doesn't care about me while he is thinking I don't care enough about him. I think both of us are asking for emotion.

Quipper, I want to stop here becasue I am not sure if you want to keep listening to my complaining, or if my compliant makes any sense to you. If you don't mind, I would prefer that we exchange this further via emails, you can email me: moonlightcao@yahoo.com.

Before I finish, I want to say something about what happened to you and your wife last night. If your wife is a very sensitive woman, then she will be hurt when you yelled at her to get out of your basement. Was she trying to clean your desk when she moved your stuff? If so I would say you shouldn't blame her in a very sever way 'cuz she is just trying to help. anyway, this is just my personal opinion. I am sure when you yelled at her you don't mean it, right?

Have a good mood. ^__^

Hi Quipper,

Where have you been??? Haven't seen you for a bit.

Dear Cloudyheart,

I have been reading a book on parenting teenagers. I have some things to learn. They say the threat of the 5 Minute chore is the key to sassy teenagers. I have not yet implemented it.

Ordinarily I try to avoid being anything but polite to my wife. My yelling at my wife was unusual. It is true that she may have had good intentions. I later asked her for an agreement not touch my papers, with out POJA, and prior discussion, and enthusiastic agreement. She seemed Ok with that.

Glad your husband had a good talk, and you both got some things talked about.

I Walked for 25 Minutes yesterday. I am overweight, and it bothers my wife, as apearance is one of the 10 parts of a marriage. So I am trying Divorce Buster 180 Degres, and changing by doing some 1/2 Hour walks.

My time is getting more limited, but keep complaining about your husband. Complaining will help you think of solutions to do things better. I post about my wife as a bad person, so I can think about how to make things better.

If you husband can admit that he is partly to blame, then I may well be wrong about the possibility of his being a Suppresive Person or being in Covert Hostility. I am happy to be wrong. I have not yet tried your E-mail.

Best Wishes,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

Hi Quipper,

It is so nice to hear from you again after all these days. I hope you and your wife are back to good term now?

I have a teenage step son, and I understand how hard it is to be diplomatic with them. Fortunately, my son is a timid boy becaseu my husband has been very strict with him all these years. He doesn't like his study but we don't have many problems in dealing with a rebellious kid.

I can't help laughing when I saw that you are overweight: It looks like we are alike more and more, 'cuz I have the same problem, and my H alwasy blames me for eating too much, but, I can't help it! I want to do some exercise but I am alwasy tired after a day's work.

My H and I are in basicly good terms these couple of days. But I still don't understand that if "too much stress & pressure" can become an excuse for men not caring about their woman? And Quibber, can you understand a man who never gives his wife any present for 7 years, and the reason is: I am not a romantic guy?

I understand that you are busy so I don't want to take up your too much time. I really want us to communicate via email though.

Have a nice day.

Cloudyheart

Der Cloudyheart,

I post on Marriage Builders mostly to think out my own problems. The context of helping others creates a fresh look at my own problems. I am open about my feelings of disappointment in my wife here.

For my E-mail, I leave that open to my wife, so she can have confidence in what I am doing on the Internet. So I am more considerate of my wife in my E-mails. So I don't think that E-mail will work for me. I am interested in seeing how you can further explore your complaints, and refine your desires, and make requests that will result in your getting your needs met.

I have taken The Silva Method Course, or Silva Mind Control. In the course, they discuss making requests in the form of programming for your loved ones. Since my wife is always taking ideas from other people and trying to force them into our marriage, I came up with a new program for her. "I will be alert for ideas mentioned by other people, that are not within the POJA, and I will make note of who mentioned the idea, so I can best present the request for a new POJA to my husband." My wife calls POJA the Pajammas.

I am not sure what you want your husband to change to appear more manly to you. Would you like a friendlier greeting when he arrives home? Do you wan thim to lift you off your feet when he arrives, and display affection?

Best wishes,

Quipper,
Married 28 years and still struggling

Hi Quipper,

Looks like you are on the internet now. ^^__^^

I think most people post on MB mostly thinking of their own problem, but hey, isn't this how we get to know each other and end up in sharing each other's pain and happiness?

Too bad that the email won't work for you, but I think I can manage the forum. ^_^

I am really impressed that you are taking all the efforts to improve your marriage even though you have been married for 28 years! So to me you really want your marriage to work out, and it proves that you love your wife very much. I guess marriage is a pilgrimage for us to look for the answer of love and commitment, we can't stop trying, looking, and maintaining, till the day we die.

To answer your question, yes, I do want my husband to show some affection, such as a kiss when he arrives home, although lift me off my feet is kind of out of the question because I weight the same as him, ^^__^^. To woman romance is the key point of their lives, they will devot all their lives to achieve their dream of a prince on a white horse back. All they need is a confirmation that their efforts are not done in vain, that their lovers appreciate their efforts.

I am still trying for my marriage and making all these efforts because I still believe that my H loves me, it is just the hard life that maeks us grumpy and negative to each other. We are still new in this country, and we are suffering a very heavy financial pressure. that's why I don't give up my hope in our marriage and go to talk to him although he sometimes try to shut off on me. I guess that's what makes woman so great, do you agree? But still, I want him to take me out for dinner, I wnat him to buy me gifts, to say he loves me, but hell, none of those he is doing....so I guess I will be tormented all my life.

OK, quipper, hope you have a nice day and nice everning with your wife. If you want, you can tell me more about your wife, describe her personality a bit, so taht I will have some idea wht kind of a person she is.

Take care.

Dear Cloudyheart,

I have been thinking about your question of how I can describe my wife.

I can say that she does not put enough emphasis on POJA. She is frequently listening to what someone else thinks is a good idea, then trying to impose the other person's idea on our marriage. Today, I left her a message, and asked her to explain the POJA to one person. My wife does not listen to other people's ideas, without getting wrapped up in the other person's philosphies. She needs the tools of being able to be pleasant, but shine the other people on, without adopting the other person's ideas.

My wife makes irritable remarks, more often than is pleasant to be around. I try to be pleasant, and not sarcastic. I need to develop better ways to reverse the effects of her irritable comments, and stop rewarding them with becoming involved in her negative discussions.

There is a book, of which TOOMUCHCOOFFEEMAN has posted a couple weeks ago, in 180 DEGREE DIVORCE BUSTERS, at the bottom og his list of references, The Love Diet, which is Secrets to Romance, where a woman describes how men should be more romantic. One woman reports printing the exerpt from MB, giving that to her husband, and getting amazing results. Click on the Love Diet, and it takes you to that excerpt.

I tried to copy the list form TOOMUCHCOFEEMAN

--------------------
The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage.
EN(Emotional Needs) questionaire.
LB(Love Busters) questionaire.
What Are Plan A and Plan B?.
Divorce busting 180 degree list
Notable Threads
Love Busters:Sex Should Always Be Shared
The Love Diet

Hope it works

Best Wishes,

Quipper,
Married 28 Years and still struggling

<small>[ August 13, 2003, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>