My stbxw agree weeks ago to start talking with a counselor.

I tried gettin her interested in the Retrouvaille marriage counseling,,,

The day she agreed to talking with a counselor, her words were, "i do want to know if we can live together." A week later she replied she never said this.

Two weeks ago she said she didn't want to be married. She's still going to the counselor with me.
Does anybody have any suggestions, as to how do you really begin in negotiating to recover a marriage. SO fat the counselor has only listened to us, and asked few questions.
One of her comments to me was she thought i was ADD!?

My opinion, we are dwelling to much about our past,, i feel that we should be moving forward,,,

Thank You,

Dear Stephan,

I have not read your posts for about a month or so. Congratulations for getting your wife to a counselor. That will probably cause me to have to half of the words I posted about her.

The truth has never been an obstacle for your wife to express her feelings.

Please let me know a little bit about Retrouville Therapy.

You may be wise just to note down the inconsistencies of your wife's words, so you can point them out to the coulselor, that feelings can be listend to, but that your wife's view of the facts is suspect.

What are your goals in counseling? How is the father of your wife's first son fitting into the picture?

Your 3 or 5 year old daughter was ill, how is she doing?

You had a restraining order that you were working on lifting. How is that going?

Do you still have a house or apartment to which your wife could come home to, to live?

My goal in counseling was often to just learn to be like Georg Burns, on the TV show with Gracey Allen. George would say, "You wound not believe what Gracey did the other day". Then it would show some absurd situation, which Gracey spent the rest of the show explaining how it was all perfectly logical from her perspective. George Burns kept his cool, and his love for Gracy, up front.

I believe taht I already referred you to the books of counseling questions, $80.00 per volume, Grade Charts 0-4, by L Ron Hubbard. Perhaps you could speed thngs along by asking more pertinent questions in counseling. Forward looking are, What would you like to change? What would you like to make disappear? What would you like to have more of? What would you like to do more of? What would you like to have more of? What are your wishes?

I was careful to avoid criticizing my wife in counseling. I would unload on the counselor. I would try some sugestions, and reject other sugestions. "Well I'll think about that, maybe we can talk more about that next week."

Blessings

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 06, 2003, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Quipper,

Yes our daughter became ill,,, she's doing GREAT!

Regards to Retrouvaille, they are saving four out of five marriages, even where physical abuse, infidelity and alcoholism are involved. Go to www.marriagesavers.org or type in Retrouvaille in your browser.

My wife i think plays a visicious(sp) game.
She'll still say things, then eventually she'll say she never said that, (confusing)

$ years ago i asked why she doesn't tuck children in at bedtime, her reply was "they don't ask.' In counseling, she had a different excuse, cuz rooms weren't clean.
Discussed past relationships, she told counselor she only had three, the longest was ten years, not so. She's had about 13, and the longest was maybe two years. Her first marriage, at ten months she left, and had an affair. She told counselor it lasted about 5 years.

My mom has some issues, W told counselor that she was just like my mom!!! Thats a fact, for a first time! But i don't know how to handle this??

She told counselor how i'm more nurturing and emotionaly involved with our children a first time as well. I've been being accused of abusing the children. Also for years she's said its my fault for her not being close to our children.

I have heard "alot" of times this statement from her, "You don't know me." I really want to ask more about this, but i'm reluctant!? maybe even nervous to!

W told counselor how i'm possesive, and controlling,,, if you were to turn this around, you'd actually have the truth.


She also says how she was the primary parent, she did it all, with no help from me. "I" was the only parent here, involved with all six children, alone. Yes, she helped in the afternoons with "our" two, other than that, it was me getting them up, fed, and tucked in at night!!!

Yet, i've been accused of these, sexually violating her, flirting, an womanizer, abusing her, manipulating, controlling, lieing, stalking, following, possisive, wanting ehr here with no vehicle, removing money from her pockets,,, five years ago, i was accused ot attempting to poison her! something isn't right!


Still, whenever W thinks i'm fading out or away, she'll at times its like, i'm not exactly sure as to what,,, or how, it is, its something. Anyhow, I'll allow myself to become reeled right back in!!! Thats because thats what i still want i suppose! She is my wife, and she is the mother to my children!!

But something isn't right!!!

I've always brought her flowers home, expressed desires to even shower with her,,, and such. Stated how i thought it was ok, for certain doors to be allowed opened, the reply generally was, "you're sick, you need help."

And i don't have a clue, as to what to say, or do. In a few days i have an appointment with the counselor, alone. To discuss these things, and more w/o W. Counselor agreed, only as long as i agreed to inform W, at a later date.

The PPO, or restraining order is still in affect. Two weeks ago, i served her notice to appear, she called saying she would drop it, then asked "When are you going to start being nice?" She was reffering to joint custody. I can't agree to this!
She never showed up for court, although i didn't get her served before seven day notice, she calle dlater that day asking if there was an warrant for her arrest?

In two weeks, i do have a court date, and the service is already sent by certified mail.

Two weeks ago she also mentioned about her lawyer, i seriously doupt she even has one anynore, things aren't really adding up. Our divorce should have been final two months ago, and when i call the courts, they have nothing pending on this case??

I need somehting, but the somehting i feel i need, is whats been ailing me, but i need it under me. A new girlfriend!! LOL

Dear Stephan,

As I said, the truth is not obstacle for your wife to express her feelings.

You seem to be concerned about the fact, that your wife's facts don't add up.

How about, not worry about the truth? Get used to changes in versions? What version will come up now? I can't wait to see what version of the truth my wife is working on now? Reality is no abstacle for your wife to look and feel good.

My wife recently told me she was sorry that she had forgotten a time she was suposed to be home, and was late. I replied, "Well there is no need to appologise, I have gotten acustomed to being neglected" My wife seemed taken by surprise, and has been doing better recently.

We must have discussed The Love Diet, at the bottom of 180 Degree Divorce Busters by TOOMUCHCOFFEEMAN, but you might just try to look at again, and see if ther is anything you can follow.

Has your wife been checked for a brain tumor, or something neurological, that might lead to distortions of the truth?

Glad to hear your daughter recovered.

Keep checking with the Clerk of Court. Go down in person and look at the files. Have the clerk explain what each stapled group of pages means.

Good luck with lifting the restraining order, or at least geting it modified.

Let us reader know what your counselor says about your wife's radical revisions of the truth.

I generally post to give ideas for a marriage to stay togehter, but I will understand your giving up, if that is your decision.

Basically your wife tries to do good things. She is not threatening to call the police again, for no reason. Most of what she says seems harmless, and she is not abusive to the kids. What counts, of course, is your prediction of the future.

Are ther other people influencing your wife, that you could help her to allow to have less influence from? Perhaps your sounsleor could help identify undul influential indivuals, and help your wife develop skills of indendent thnking phrases.

Blessings,

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

Quipper,

I don't want to give up on my W, or my M.
As crazy as it may be,,,

I've wondered before if there was somebody influencing her, I do know that she has a friend who apparently hates men.

While daughter was sick, as we were leaving the hospital, i was in my van leaving the parking lot. W stopped me to give me the rest of childrens candy. As she stood there, i reached out to shake her hand. Then i said "come here, i want to give you something." WIth my finger and thumb i had a hold of her sleeve. She came in towards the van door, so i gave her a hug, kissed her head and said "I love you."
I asked if she was bothered by this, her reply "no." I then asked if she wouldn't make more into this,,, her comment was, I'm smiling ain't I?" Hours later we were on the phone, she started yelling and cursing how i grabbed her, drug her five feet across the parking lot and forced her to kiss me!!!

These sort of acts have happened before, before she moved out,,,

A friend of hers(ours) has even commented in the past, its as though she's talking, or listening to someone else. I can't honestly say. Again, all i know is that this was noticable, even years ago??

She even takes what i have "said," and changes the context into what, and how she wants it to be!?

Two weeks ago, while talking to the counselor,,, was the first time ever, i heard this ladt say she was wrong.

This had to do with me asking her home to dinner one eve while she was at work. She showed up, bringing her work woith her. I had a romantic table setting, so i felt bothered by that. Yet, for the past years, i was wronged for being bothered. Finally, W stated she was wrong.

Thats how its been with every thing else as well.

To this day, wife takes no responsibility of any issues, to date, its all my fault.
The world knows it takes two??

For the longest time, wife has been hating me, and accusing me of taking her children away from her, and even preventing her form spending time with them. For the first month after courts awarded me custody, i phoned her each and every day, asking, offering, for her to have, pick up, or spend time with the children. I'd either recieve no, i'm too busy, i'm sick,,, or i wouldn't recieve an answer at all. I would email her, and or even call and leave the messages on the answering machine,,, or i would leave the message with the people she was staying with at that time,,,
Things simply do not add up!

Quipper, are you familar wi5th "projection?"
Almost each and everything my wife has accused me of, she is actually the one who has done it. With thge exception of being an womanizer, and i'm not sure about the flirting,,,

Dear Steven,

I have been thinking about this reply for a day or two, trying to see if I can come up with a better idea. But this is the idea that came up originally, and still seems pertinent.

I have imported a couple paragraphs from another post. I have edited the paragrphs in an attempt to fit your situation.

Standard Paragraphs on a Wife's Susceptibility to Influence: (Scientolog PTS/SP Course)

Your Wife has done things that make it seem like she is being overly influenced by others. You identifed one possibility, a man-hating lady-friend. The excessive ifluence is called PTS/SP. A PTS person is easily influenced by others. PTS means Potential Trouble Source.

So understanding your Wife's behavior in this matter is simple, PTS, overly susceptible to influence. Your option, other than getting naturally upset, is to help your Wife handle or disconnect. Fair Roads, Good Weather is a term for talking to others, without buying into what they are selling. Shining people on, is a slang expression of the idea. To help your Wife escape the magic spell of Other Influences, you can coach her to better handle the ideas and phrases put forward by her spell binders.

There is quite a range of phrasing options, and attitudes that can work for shining people on, and simply acknowleging their communicaitons. One dirll, is to take a newspaper, and read, or paraphrase an idea from the newspaper to your wife. Have her answer back to you, with sufficinent specificity to indicate she understands the concept, but with sufficient vaugenss that she has not agreed to go on a personal crusade about the idea.

SP means Suprressive person. This is the type of person who uses undue influence to control others. The undue influence can be a wide rnge of guilt trips, emotional balckmail, threats or other tricks to get another person to follow ther wishes of the SP.

Post again for more ideas.

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 08, 2003, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Greetings,

You know, i've applied several different ideas/suggestions. Rather coming from you, or other sources.
I "feel" that from those where an positve outcome was achieved, i responded to quickly, resulting in actually pushiung her back in the opposite direction again.

One thing I have heard, and still continue to hear, "Steve, you don't know me." I "feel" there may be something with this, as i also don't know how or exactly to respond??
What, if any suggestions would you come up with?

During our last MC session, she made a comment how she's exactly like (someone) this someone requires meds on a daily basis. Therefor, i'm left with concerns with this as well?? This has been something i've been concerned about for the past few years actually??

Lately, i "feel" that maybe i should simply *tell* her i'm done, and i'm moving forward,,, yet i'm concerned,, as i'm wondering why she even agreed to talking to MC. She still plans on attending,,, i can't understand,, all i know is how i "feel" that this only gives me hopes. Can you iunderstand?? Meaning, "if" she really wanted out 100%, why talk to the MC?? Could this be another ploy? tactic move? What??

The last three emails i've sent her, i recieve no response, yet like yesterday when i called her,, as we were hanging up i stated, "It was really nice talking with you." As she said the same thing,,,then said "have the kids call me sometime."
To be honest, i don't ask the kids if they want to call her, they do ask occassionaly, but its always during the time W is at work.

I "feel" that if i have the kids call her, its helping make things easier for her,, yet i often wonder if maybe i had them call her maybe it would help her to realize that maybe she does miss them, which to this day, I really doupt that she does miss them. SHe'll be in town, and won't stop? she doesn't call them?
All she really does, is spend so much time energy into her career, and her new job. Now she's pursuing going into her own business,, and she asked me questions how i would feel/handle certain things, one was, "how would you handle knowing i was working with other men?"
I'm not sure why the question, for this has never influenced/bothered me in any way, or in any day.

Than you,,,

Stephan

Dear Steven,

I am unclear about the full meaning of your first paragraph, last post. You might revise it so us less clairvoigant readers can undedrstand your full meaning.

I already said I was eating half my words, by your wife ging to therapy. If she continues in therapy, I am going to have to eat more of my words.

I give you ideas, without any conditions that you actually use my ideas. Hopefully the ideas I put forward are useful, to at least help you think of other ideas that are actually helpful. I have reversed myself in the sequence providing ideas and suggestions on your threads. I rarely suggest that you use an idea sooner than later, as I try to clearly acknowledge the chance of a misfire.

If your wife seems to be making deposits in your love bank, try to make some in hers. If my wife asks me for something, that is a free hint of what will constitute a deposit in the love bank. If your wife suggests having he kids call her, set a timer or alarm, to remind yourself of an opportune time, then sit quietly to see if it feels right, then get the kids together and call mom.

You can always go back to waiting for the kids to ask.

The question, to me, is not what are your wife's intentions. The question is, what openings do you see to make love bank deposits, and which ones do you want to attempt?

A Light bulb came on for me. Hope I am wrong, again. In therapy, the therapist often asks personal questions. If there are answers you don't want to see in court testimony on custody of the kids, then you can choose to be silent or find a way to change the subject. I have a list of ways to change the subject, in my locker. I should review my list soon, as I am overdue.
Being able to skilfully and smoothly change the subject can be important in the face of adversity.

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 10, 2003, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

sorry quipper, what i was saying in my first paragraph was, from all the ideaes, and suggestions i j=have recieved, and the ones i would follow or put to ise. Some would have results where W would respomnd to. Therefor i in turn would react to her, too quick. Resulting in pushing her nack away again.

Example, awhile ago i sent her an email saying i didn't want to see her, or talk to her, fore her sake realizing i was pushing her,, and also that it was to hard on me, from still loving her,,, she responded,,,saying things as though she didn't want it to be over, i than responded to quick, and pushed her back to thinking she did want out.

What do you think about when i said how many times i have heard this from her, "Steve, you don't know me?" What is this? I keep hearing this over and over,,, what is she saying, any ideas?

I wouldn't start eating to many of your words,,, something isn't right here, and i'm not talking about the usual divorce, or affair issues!?

Thank you

Dear Steve,

I deliberately avoided answering the question because I am not really sure what she means by, "Steve, you don't know me."

So let's do some exploring, and maybe you can find an answer between my lines of rambling.

My wife said that once to me, seemingly, in the context of, to be threatening adultery, which she sometimes threatens when we argue.

I replied, "What is it that you think I don't know?" I gave her a knowing look, long enough to be a stare, as she remained silent, for some time. Then she walked away, or changed the subject. My wife never answered my question, but she never asked that question again. It has been some time since she asked that, and it might have been more than one incident, but that is the way I handled it.

I believe my wife has stepped out, or fooled around, or more accurately, allowed herself to get into situations where she was pressured to have some sort of sexual raltions with another man, on more than one occasion. The pressures may not have come so much from the OM, but just from her internally feeling a need to find a way to get back at me, for my inadequacies, from her perspective.

So one question is, whatever her meaning may be, how do you handle the question?

Your wife could mean that there are things that your Wife feels guilty about what she has, to this date, not yet revealed to you. Perhaps your wife does not feel comfortable sharing those concepts with you. So another way to handle the issue, is to find a time to discuss things. Take her out to dinner, or someplace private. Get a baby sitter, and go park in the car someplace.

Not contacting your wife is part of Plan B. Plan A is trying to avoid love busters, and doing as much as you can for your spouse without feeling like a complete doormat. Plan B is where you limit contact, and minimize suport, with the idea that the other spouse will be motivated to get back together with you, as the spouse misses your support. Secondarily, Plan B will prevent you from gettting more hurt, and limit your cycles of feeling bad, and limit your loss of love for the other spouse. To make sure that the other spouse understands that it is from your love for the other spouse that you are cutting off contact, a Plan B letter is written. There are many Plan B advocates posting Emotional Needs, but I have seen over-advocacy, where ther is insufficent effective suport for the other spouse to miss, to provide enough motivation to get back together.

Plan B has instigated the other spouse to take actions adverse to gettng back together, in some threads, Plan B has backfired.

MB ordinarily recommends making Love Deposits in the love bank, and that is difficult without good communicaiton to be sure you are doing the best things for the most credit.

If your wife says you don't know her, give her more opportunites to feel you are providing an open atmosphere where she can reveal her inner secrets, or at least that it is OK, or at least workable, that she has things whe does not talk to you about. Good realtins in the present time is what is important.

Basically, you can listen to the feelings behind what your wife is saying, but the words your wife is using will probably usually lead you astray from what is important. If my wife comes home at night, I just way yes to whetever she asks for, as fully as I can, and listen politely to her ideas, whether I understand her ideas or not. When she comes home, I just try to be nice to her. I am tempted to probe her ideas, but I self-discipline myself to resist the temptation. My probing has caused upset too often in the past. I would encourage you to resist the temptation to try to probe your wife's ideas or words.

Another way to phrase the question, "You don't know me" is: "If I disclose my faults A, B and C, will you still want me to live with you as your wife? To keep up good relations while our divorce is pending?" Another answer, "Honey, I love you fully without knowing your faults. My love makes me blind to any and all your faults. I know you well enough to love you fully."

Blessings,

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, stil struggling

Dear Steve,

I must have recommended for you to read The Loved Diet posted by TOOMUCHCOFFEEMAN with a link at the end of 180 Degree Divorce Busters.

I have the start of it copied, here. Maybe this will get you interested to finish it.

START:quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Barbara DeAngelis book "What Women Want Men To Know":

The Love Diet: How To Feed Your Partner's Heart.

This is the "Love Diet". I've created it as an easy way to remember and practice feeding your partner's heart and being a wonderful lover outside of the bedroom. It's simple, it's fun, and it will make a big difference in your relationship.

When you study nutrition, you learn about the basic food groups -vegetables, grains, proteins, dairy products- and the importance of having each of these every day. Well, the emotional nutrition is the same -feeding your partner's heart means making sure you give him or her all of the basic "emotional food groups" each day. What are these? I call them The Three A's: Attention, Affection, and Appreciation. They are the secret ingredients contained in the Love Diet that will fill up your partner's heart: You pay attention, you show affection, and you express appreciation.

If I asked you right now how often you need to eat every day, you'd probably answer that you need to eat at least two or three times a day, with a few snacks in between. Well, I'd like you to think about feeding your partner's heart in the same way with the following Love Diet.

*Love Meals: Your partner needs three Love Meals a day. What is a Love Meal? It's a time each day for three minutes when you feed your partner's heart with one or more of the menu items contained in the Three A's: Attention, Affection, or Appreciation. I call this the 3X3 formula, three times a day, when you choose to actively love your partner for at least three minutes. Think about it as three minutes of intimacy. Maybe it is three minutes in the morning together before you get out of bed,or three minutes on the phone in the middle of the day, or three minutes after the kids go to sleep. These are Love Meals. Just like you'd have breakfast, lunch, and dinner, you have Love Meal#1,#2,and #3!!

*Love Snacks: Even when you eat several good meals a day, you need a snack once in a while, don't you? Well, the same applies to feeding your partner's heart. Along with the 3X3 formula of three Love Meals a day, give your mater several love snacks during the day. What is a love snack?:

CONTINUED............

Quipper

<small>[ November 10, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Quipper

I actually read this love diet already, as i have always, whenever the chance was there excersized this diet.

stbxw and I had our third MC session today.
Quipper, looks as though maybe some words will have to be eaten,,, W today said she wants to see what, where we went wrong, and she wants to see if we can still stay married.

W agreed to go out with me, as long as i didn't look at it as a date as if it's a magical marriage saver. Anyhow, we're going to meet at a restraunt,,,and I'am still

STANDING! for the healing of my marriage.
www.rejoiceministries.org

Dear Steve,

Communication over lunche has gotten my wife and I back from situations that I had previously not see any compromise for. I happy to be wrong about dishing your wife.

Quipper

<small>[ November 12, 2003, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>