BY the way that book I mentioned is written by Lundy Bancroft. He tells you in the book how to tell if the abuser is really trying to chance or just blowing smoke. In the chapter on different types of abusers my H was right there on the first page, The demander. Not the worst of teh group but right there in black and white just the same. My treats otehr people great, including his employees. But his first wife said he was abusive and no one believe her. Not even her own family. His borther is also abusive in the same way as is his dad. I have tot tell you that I am certain that my H and his bro are like this from growing up in a house witha dad like this and the mom putting up withit. They are still together, the dad is a little better but he still does not treat her well and she has put up with so much, the woman is a saint. But here she is in old age and she mentioned to me once that if she got sick she doesnt even thinkher H would ome see her in the hospital. And she treats him like aking.

I for one dont want to be living like that at 65 . And I dont want my sweet boy growing up and treating his wife like this. Even when they dont see it, and mine dont becsue my H is really careful not to act like an [censored] n front of other people. Kidds pick this stuff up. My H is not physically abusive so trying to describe to tsomeone how bad it is is hard. But some fo teh the peole real close to me have a clear picture.

THe reason I think that book is so good is cause it tells you the TRUTH. These guys rarely change. Change takes big effort. And why should they change? He tells in the book there is so much positive reinforcment for being abusive. I would have never thought of it before. I mean the guy blows up, even if you leave that is still reinforcing him, he is still controlling you.


He also says that abused women should stop taking half the blame. He says this stuff where they say that its alwasy both people's fault when a relaionmship is failing is totlly untrue. In the case of abuse the relationship is failing due to the abuser period. The abused victim should not be blamed. reading this made me feel good and rang true. In what way am I to blame here. The only thing I have really done wrong is I have not laid down on the floow and become the doormat my H would like me to be? Should I take 50% of the responsbiltiy of the relaioship failing for that?

I am trying to come to terms with all this. I am angry that I am involved with a person like this. I am angry that I have my beautiful child may have to go througha divorce becasue of this or worse end up role modeling his father in the way he treats women. I will do anything in my power to prevent that.

Dont kid yourself. A person that is abusing you is not loving you. I tried to convince myself that a long time and wondered why I couldnt swallow it. That is becasue it is not true.

I love this website. I have tried that the techniques but I belive that when you are dealing with abusive men all bets are off. Actually just spedning time trying to figure them out is reinforcing their behavior, I mean how much time are they spending trying to figure you out or what you need? IF they are like my H none.


In this book the author say that abuse comes from a strong casse of entitlement. Not insecurity, no childhood abuse. Entitlement. HE says the abuser is usually but not often male becasue historically society has offered them this line of bull that because they are men they deserve special treatment. And that their woman should do what they say. So their actions are all related to making this a reality because they are entitled to have a female servant/slave.

He also said that contrary to popular "myth" they knew what they were doing. I didnt know this befor ebut if you read about this and think about your own situation you will se that he is correct. They dont do it cause they have no control over themselves. He said it is apparent in his workshops that the men are very aware whta they are doign but are doing becasue it has such a huge payoff. They get control of finances, they get more free time, they get to have a sevant and more and more.

They dont do it cause they are insecure, lots of women are insecure and they dont abuse men. He said some may come from abusive homes and if they do they may be more physically dangerous but most do not come fromthis type environment. most were not abused in childhood.

I am not going to feel sorry for my H anymore and try to "figure out" what his problems are. LEt him feel sorry for me for a change for puttin gme in this mess. If he was a real man he would feel bad about all this. He's not.

Sorry for the rant but I feel like I finally have a very good understanding of this situation and I am at the end of trying to "understand" him. A person who intentially mistreats his wife and I now belive for ALL of these men this is COMPLETELY intentional. That person may as well be a criminal for what they are INTENTIONALLY putting their family through

Im curious, jskjsk, have you left your H? If not, are you planning on it and how you will live?
These are major concerns of mime. I havnt worked in 10 yrs, so working full time to support my kids is a huge deal. Also, I have talked to my boys (they are 10 & 13 ) and they dont want to leave their house. This is their comfort zone....there stuff is here, their friends are here. My 4 yr. daughter isnt in school yet, which is another concern for me. My boys are at the age where they are into doing stuff w/ Dad....working on cars, going to work w/ Dad (contractor). They have seen alot of crap, but they tell their counslers its not a big deal, they are used to it. My 10yr. is going thru this thing where he hates me (day by day bases). All these things worry me that the boys would want to stay w/ their dad....and you see...if I stay I can protect them (or so I feel). I also hate to think what divorce will do to them. All this stuff goes thru my head..I try and look at every aspect.
My H sounds a lot like yours. Everyone likes him, hard for anyone to believe that H could be that cruel. Only mine has made abusive comments in front of my parents & some friends, so some of them have an idea.
At work, my H treats his employees like crap..very bosy & noone does anything right. But they all still like him!!
Over the years we've had many friends, but now we dont do anything w/ anyone. One friend told me, she loves me, but cant stand to see the way H treats me. I have boo hooed (alot of women keep this stuff to themselves, not me I've told anyone who will listen) to my friends....so much so that we rarly talk anymore. I feel like when they see me coming they run the other way.
I most definitly have allowed this to go on. I have only just begun to realize this. And that is why I need to change. And I ahve seen alot of changes in my H. I just pray that we can get thru this together instead of apart. I dont know what will happen, how long I will be able to hold onto this dream, but I feel that this is what God wants me to do. He wants me to change, He wants me to give it a fighting chance. Part of me still wants to leave, put the other part says stay and fight!!

<small>[ April 17, 2004, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Angel38 ]</small>

i wonder if there is a moderator on this thread that could give us some insight here?

I still believe that if you are seeing changes in your husband there is hope. And you are so right angel you do need to become a stronger and better person. Becuase even if you leave this man you will repeat the same mistakes with the next man (that's a proven fact) so keep working on your own personal growth. Please understand that I am not referring to changing to placate your husband but working on your own character to develop and mature that...

A humbling thing is that in relation to character whether our husband is a jerk or not he can easily see where our character flaws are and points them out forever but we can actually grow through that. But we have to be discerning to know if we really are that way. An example my husband says I'm selfish (i'm not) but he also says I take things personally (got me there) so that's an area I need to work on . humbling as that might be taking that criticsm from him.

You talk about your friends running from you... people do that for various reasons -
1. you confided in the wrong person
2. they are afraid - it might happen to them, they don't know how or have the emotional energy to help, there's lots of reasons for fear
3. they don't believe you really want to make a change so they give up

But you do need someone who will stick with you... is there a couple people like that? Do you go to church? Be careful even there who you choose - some people have the attitude you made your bed now lie in it - but there are good people out there who want to help. It took me alot of tries to find the right support group.

I'm glad you're going to counselling., Is there a support group you could join?

In that book I mentioned "Angry men and women who love them" they have a contact number for help. Why don't you try them. I'm sorry I cna't give you the number since I've lent the book to my friend.

We've had alot more bad days than good days but the good days are beginning to be longer in between the bad days... keep trying angel I'm praying for you

hey angel have you had any problems with depression? are you on meds? Did you know and does your husband know that that can drastically affect your sex drive?

we've been through this too...

Yes, I am on welbutrin for depression. I have been taking it for about 3yrs. now. I tried other meds before using this one, and they all killed sex drive. Welbutrin doesnt do that, in fact it actually inhances it a bit. I just dont have any passion for my H, no need for intimacy....which he desperatly needs. This is where I dont measure up in his eyes. Even if I step out of "my box" & do something out of the 'norm' its nots good enough.
I do go to church, and I have a few people to confide in. But like I said, this is my life and its all I know, and people really dont want to hear it over & over & over again. I feel I need to just keep it to myself. My parents are a great support to me, but I now feel I have to keep it from them....it is very painful for them to hear & see it and know what Im living thru. My mom tells me all the time that she doesnt know how I do it.
But I am really trying to change. Im beginning to believe it is all me and Im the one whos messed up.

<small>[ April 17, 2004, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: Angel38 ]</small>

Angel38
I dont know you but from what you have written you are not the crazy one. Dont let your H get you thinking that becaseu that is what these guys do, try to convince you your are crazy. I wont allow that and you are not going to either ok? We both need to get strong and get into a position where we have more control over our own lives and I am working on that. I have spent years trying to do different things. use the principles here and I realized after reading that book WHY the MB principles were not working in my case. And why in fact my H treated me even worse when I was really nice to him. I think it really hurts to know you have given so much to a person and you are of very little value to them, except for their own self needs. I believe one of the resons people stay in denial about this is becasue they just cant accept this fact, especially if they have made many sacrifices for the person as I have.

I am also lucky in that my family is supportive. My mom also wonders how I can stand this. My MIL obviosuly accepted her fate a long time ago. She is like a dead person. I am not going to be her

no of course you're not crazy angel. You're the one out there getting help... but it seems you need some more support to get through all this. Every day I come in contact with people who are getting divorced, being abused, etc why are there so many controlling selfish people...
Can you get into a group that is going through the boundaries book? I know alot of churches are starting to offer it as a study group. Or even better do the boundaries in marriage course with a church.

My husband hated me learning boundaries because it meant I was getting healthier and he had to adjust but recently he complimented me in that he said he could see I was changing positively. I really believe you should go through the boundaries in marriage before giving up. It will make you stronger if nothing else.

Don't be distressed angel about the sex thing don't feel bad about his criticism of the bit that you are doing - be honest - we often don't tell our husbands what we need (affection big time) encourage him that you're doingg your best and as your marriage improves FOR BOTH OF YOU this will improve (I know at this time this will be a faith statement) but it also helps him know that he has responsibility to make things better too.

jsk you said walking away when they're mad means they've won - I don't agree because abusive people need a target and if the target isn't there they're stymied in their behavior.

iMaccami

What did you use for this? Can you give a sample?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> PS: I also found that a carefully worded affirmation repeated frequently worked wonders for me. Everything came true - not the exact outcome I had planned or even hoped for, but the one which was right and best for everyone involved... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

i'm sorry I'm don's spend much time on the internet so don't know what imaccami means?

How are you doing angel? for me it happened too that we had bad and then good then bad then good but I began to notice that the times of bad got shorter and the good got longer....

aliceone5,

iMaccami (member #31143) is someone's screen name that had posted that they had repeated a daily mantra and I was trying to find out what it was. YOu can see it on the 1st page of this post. Sorry to confuse you

Aliceone,

Thanks for asking how things are going. Things are still up & then down. I think for the most part, we are just existing with each other.
I dont know how to get to know him again, like I used to . Neither one of us do. We dont seem to have anything in common at all. When we do have alone time we dont have anything to say to each other. We went for a ride to amish country last Sat. did some shopping & out to eat. Was o.k., but alot of silence.
He seems to think that is all about me. He said everything is about me and my timetable. Of course I dont see it that way, and maybe Im wrong.
He has been saying cruel things again and I have started lashing back at him. I keep getting sucked into the arguements. I havnt been following your advice and walking away. Its just so hard to be consistant.

did you get the his needs her needs book yet? How is it going working through that? One thing I found was that when my husband was finally willing to go to something (a his needs her needs course) we made some progress. Just going through the book together he couldn't get his eyes off of how I should be changing. The point i"m sure you know is how we change ourselves not what our mate changes.

Is he willing to get some marriage coaching rather than counselling? Men are so afraid of being fixed but my husband is willing to do marriage coaching (so if that's what he's willing to do I'll go for it because willingness often leads to progress)

the last three days my husband and i acutally had a good time - the first successive days in a year I think!! Keep going Alice and get some help.

My friend is doing "boundaries in marriage workbook with me" so I keep learning and growing. Do you have someone who can do someting like that with you? She's been such a support to me? I know you're friends are distant but do you have one that could do that?

I am in the process of reading His Needs/Her Needs. I have just started chapter 4. And to be honest I havnt 'asked' him to read it with me, Im kinda afraid of his response. That sounds pathetic, I know. I struggle w/ insecurites, for one, and we havnt fought for about 3 wks and I dont want to start one. I would like to ask him thought, just got to get up enough nerve.

I've heard alot of you talk about the boundries in marriage book. I will have to look into it. I do have on new friend who may do it w/ me.

I gotta find a way to get myself out of this self pity thing I got going on. Maybe then I could make some real progress.

Angel
Did you get the book? You can order it on amazon.com or get it from the book store. It is not expensive. I can almost 100% guarentee you it will increase your self esteem because after reading it you will fully see that you are a victim and we all know it is not fair to blame the victim. You are going to be jumping out of bed inthe morning becuase you will finally know that you are not crazy. It is not you. Fixing all your little flaws is great but save that for later. Get some knowledge. Knowledge is power.

HNHN is great book. I find it helpful in some ways with my H as a stopgap to keep things from progressing. Unfortunatly I found when I did the whole program he just took advantage of me more. Oh he was very happy, it just did not equate with him treating me any better in fact he just took advantage of me more and that made me feel really bad about myself. Even Dr.Harley says that abuse in the marriage has to be addressed and dealt with and that his concepts are geared more towards marriages where there is not ongoing abuse.

Angel I dont think I said that a spouse has won if you walk away. what I met is that of course walking away is the best recourse in the face of verbal abuse or rants. However, the abusive spouse is STILL controlling the stituation because he is forcing you to either stay an take he abuse OR leave. In choosing to leave you are still be controlled by him so that even though he doesnt get all the reinforcement he would like , he still gets some reinforcement even inthe situation wher you walk away.

HEy I am not putin down your way of handling it I do the same thing I dont know of anything better. I know I wish I had understood what was REALLY going on before I got this tired. IT is hard trying to start getting your own life together when you have spent the past 4 years working on a marriage by yourself and making little progress. The only thing that ever really worked to improve things a little were, staying with mom for a week AND backing down. Onc eI read that book I immediately backed down and became complacent, stopped trying to discuss things, stopped asking for anything at all. And guess what, he is a happy man. As long as I fulfill his needs and ask for nothing in return at all we get along just great. So much for trying to "figure " him out and do all thouse diferent things all these years. In the end we are right where we started. Only this time I am not so frustrated. This has nothing to do at all with me. This is all about him and his inflated sense of entitlement. This girl is done spinning her wheels. I have a man who is not going to counseling no way and has told me often I need to just play the hand I am dealt. So basically he is saying take me just like this, I do not compramise. If you are unhappy. Too damn bad. I have a very hard time believing that a person like that actaully loves me. But I know he would treat ANYONE like this and in fact his first wife says he treated her exactly the same way so its nothing new.

Angel

you won't know til you try if your husband is willing to give His Needs a go. But I still think that working through boundaries in marriage along with learning to the His Needs is good. But ... boundaries is going to help your self esteem and your emotional health.

What would happen if you approached him by saying I appreciate the things you are doing in our marriage and I would like to get closer to you. Would you be willing to go thorugh this book with me to better our marriage. If he says no - you've tried. Don't force it but go focus on the boundaries more. Whether or not you stay in this marriage you need to be healthy. So you can work on that aspect of your personal life within a crappy marriage.

yes of course he will be happy if you do all the changing but you know meeting needs as a basic thing for every marriage so in the end you can say I did my part and have no regrets for what you did. Sometimes it's so easy to get bitter and say we're doing it all - but it doesn't solve a single thing. As I have begun to set healthy boundaries and work to meet his needs I am a happier person even though he continues to be very selfish. But he is slowly changing. So if God can be infinitely patient with me as long as there is no abuse (cause that has to stop) can I offer that same mercy to my husband?

Is he still abusing you Angel or are you at this point just fighting and not getting along? Cause at one point he was abusing you I know.

I havnt got the book "Why does he do that" yet! But I think I will order it. Right now I am trying to read several books..a little over whelmed at the moment. I would like to know why he does what he does. After searching on this site & reading these forums for othe last month, I am really seeing how contoling he is. But to hear him tell it., I control our marriage, his realtionship w/ the kids...I have taken his rights from him. I admitted that in the past I had stepped in occasionally when he was disiplining the kids, but I realized it about 1 1/2 yr ago and havnt since. I back him up now. UNLESS, he is being cruel or cussing at the kids, then I step in and I will continue to do so. I will always get in his face when it comes to the kids!
We went to get our taxes done today and we argued on the way there and afterwards we drove around for 1/2 and thes sat in our driveway for an hour talking.
His whole issue with me is the lack of intimacy, sex ect. He went to see his counsler yesterday & she wants to know why he's there....he's not the one messed up! Now I KNOW thats some B.S. (I have sat in counseling sessions before & heard them say to him " You have an anger problem" and he heard " You dont have an anger problem." He hears what he wants to hear. See's what he wants to see.
He told me today that he is starting to feel hate for me...loves me, but starting to hate me. That he doesnt want to try and more. He has needs and they need met. I need to move beyond the past ( when he was violent & very verbally abusive) That Im not consistent my attempts to save this marriage. (which is true) Every other word out of his mouth was "F" this "F" you , he even admitted the counlser said he needed to quit w/ the "F" bomb.
I tried to explain (yet again) that I dont have inimate, romantic feelings for him at this time (I still have sex, for his "Needs", but its not love). That deep down I dont think I trust him, Im afraid he's gonna hurt me again. That everytime he makes fun of me or tells me to "F" that he might as well be punching me....its the same thing. He says that I go into my little shell & pout everytime he brings this stuff up and I said "Well, yea, you just crushed me yet again.
He also feels that im messed up because I have us all in therapy. Now...I did tell him it was a requirement for me to say in marriage that he go.....Im not the one who put him on meds though. As for my 13 yr son, it was the guidance cousnler & his L.D. teacher who said "Get this boy in some counserling" NOT ME and the counsler is the one who put him on something for his ADD. And as for the 10 yr S, he does agree that he is very messed up and needs it.....but he & his counsler feel there is a pattern here. Of course they mean my controling things. He says I portray him as this monster that he isnt. (Im the first to admitt, that he can be the most loving, thoughtful, caring husband & father there is ) He is changing. And Im changing. But not soon enough for him. He's tired of everything being on "my timetable". He has needs and if I cant meet them, maybe he'll find someone who will. In fact, he says he hopes the opportunity DOEsNT arise, but he knows if it does he'll take it.

I told him I wasnt playing his games anymore. I think we should just seperate. He says no seperation, just divorce. But he wont move out and neither will I. I am being stubborn I know. I feel that he is one person to move & i would be moving 4 of us. We are in the process of selling the house, so I said we'll just exist till it sells, but im not gonna pretend anymore that we're trying.
So after all this, he comes in the house and is Mr. lovey dovey. Sends me to bed cuz Im sick, takes care of the kids, comes & gives me hugs & kisses....Im confused!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I dont know if any of this makes sense, Im not feeling well at all. Im just confused

Today has been very emotional, on top of all this I have a awful co

You can tell Im not real with it!! LOL

I meant to say I have a terrible cold!

Angel
Just get the book you'll understand. You ARE being abused, still. If you are going to continue living with him at least dont let him drive you to loose your mind. I am in the same boat. Things are better here but only becasue my guard is way up. I am taking things at my own pace but I know where I am going now and no one will ever make me feel bad about protecting myself again.

Ask yourself, how would he respond to your treating him this way? I suspect not too good. I suspect you would even be afraid to treat him that way wouldnt you?

They always start coming around if they think you might actually leave. IT is usually an act. Just get the book and save your sanity.

Hide it becasue if he gets a hold of it it will likely make him mad AND if he reads any of it he will KNOW that you KNOW exactly what he is doing. And that may make him very angry.

Maybe if he really loves you and the kids he will even be wiling to really get help. My H wont because its my problem, he is happy. I kinda suspect you are in the same boat but you can always dream.

I know what you mean about your husband hearing what he wants to hear. The only way we could get around that was for the counselor to meet with us separately and then together. so I really knew what had been said. It worked. Also the counsellor didn't any longer say I was the one who needed help. He was able to ascertain that there was some serious problems with my husband. And they could be addressed by the three of us. It seems to me in my experience a counsellor will always side with the man til they work with both of you! Then things become more realistic.

You're right he should move. You're going to be caring for the kids by what you said - you're not threatening that if the chance came you'd fool around. But if he moves don't let him come back for his needs (sex) because thenhe'll never realize you're serious about things. I'd think through just what you're going to do if you separate. Are you going to say you can come back when you promive you'll change or you can come back when me AND the counsellor feel there's been some definite attitude and lifestyle changes with you. Cause if you just take him back after a promise he ain't gonna change a bit. If my husband left I would need to see that change in his life for a good while and I'd make sure he went to some kind of anger mangement course and I'd want him to court me all over again.
(I just had a friend whose husband told her they needed to get back together but he hasn't done a thing to win her heart in the whole time they've been separated????)

I hope you can really try both of you going to the same marriage counsellor before you give up. Cause like you said you just have no idea what the counsellor said....

Don't be discouraged about the time this is taking. You need time to give things a chance and if it isn't going to work you probably need time to figure out what to do with your life.

Try not to be desperate in your reactions to him about your marriage - that seems to make our relationship worse. Just work on making your reactions right and sane even when he's not....

I havnt deserted anyone, I am not posting because H is reading & printing everything I write. Had to leave the home - things not good!
Take care