Is it wrong to feel indifference toward your spouse? I'm sure opinions will vary but I feel that I'm the only person that feels this way. Let me explain.

Married 5 years and we have a 4 year old son together. This is the second marriage for both of us. I have one child from my first marriage (he lives with us) and he has 3 children from his first marriage (they live with their mother..in another city)

Shortly after we married, a stream of lies unraveled. I quickly noticed that any time he talks, about 10 percent of what he's saying is the truth. The other 90 percent is being made up. There is no integrity in what he says. The lie that bothers me the most was that his first wife left him when she was pregnant with the 3rd child because she was having an affair. He believed that the 3rd child was not his. I found out later that not only were they still living together, but he was present during the birth.

I have had a hard time understanding what was to gain by telling such a lie. I am the first to admit that I am by no means free of sin and I always work at being a better Christian. I'm not in love with someone else, having an affair, etc.

He tries to control every aspect of my life. If I go get groceries and he feels like I've been gone too long, he calls my cell phone to see what's taking me too long (I've only been gone an hour). If I go to the bathroom for more than 10 minutes, he comes to check on me. If I'm taking a bath, he knocks on the door at least twice to see if I'm almost finished (we have two bathrooms). He calls me at work 5 times a day, just to see what I'm doing and gets mad when I can't answer personal questions because there is always a stream of people around my desk.

We stopped doing things with my family a long time ago. It's not worth doing things with my family if he's going to complain for a week afterwards. We don't do anything with our friends. He's extremely jealous and accused me of flirting with his friends or my friends' husbands. So again, it's not worth doing anything with friends.

He constantly complains about how I never want to touch him, be around him, talk to him, etc. In the beginning I tried to talk to him, but never seem to be able to get through to him.

We constantly disagree about how to raise children. Our child gets everything he wants from his father. I believe that children need to be given guidelines and children need to be told no sometimes. Our child is 4 years old and has 5 crowned teeth due to all the candy "surprises" he gets from his Dad. Not to mention how unfair he treats my son.

I call myself indifferent because I am exhausted with trying to make our marriage better. I am exhausted with trying to figure out what part of the story he's telling me is the truth.

Maybe divorce is the key, but he has threatened on more than one occassion that he will take our son away from me. He threatens this even if we are mearly arguing. So I feel trapped.

I have expressed my feelings many times and suggested marriage counseling. He refuses counseling because his first wife saw a counselor and the counselor told her to leave him. So he thinks all counselors are going to encourage divorce.

I am not physically abused, and for that I feel truly lucky.

I guess I'm asking for opinions. I know that I'm the person that needs to change in this relationship but I can't figure out how. I'm tired of being unhappy.

I'm so sorry that you are going thru this. Can you go to a therapist on your own? I think what you are feeling is normal. It's hard to feel respect or fondness for someone who drags you down. I think what is he doing is a form of abuse. Trying to control you, isolate you, blaming you, lying to you. He's even using (and hurting) your son to hurt you (candy/cavities).

It might be a good idea to talk to a lawyer too, no that you should get a divorce, but to know what your rights are as far as custody. I seriously doubt that he could take your son away, but you'd probably feel better hearing that from a professional.

Good Luck!

Thank you for replying. I have thought about counselling for myself. I have also suggested family counselling for all of us.

Honestly, it just felt good to vent my frustrations. I've read many good suggestions in this forum!

Thanks again.

Heck no. You're in an untenable situation. You spouse doesn't respect you or treat you wiht the dignity you deserve.

I can see why you feel that way and it's perfectly valid.

Venting here may help in the short term, but it's not a long term solution.

You need to get the Patricia Evans book "The verbally abusive relationship, how to recognize it and respond". You need to read it, and understand the PO way you're being treated.

You need to apply the principles in it so that you can recover your self-respect and your dignity and being the healing process. If your husband agrees to work on the healing, then Basic Concepts and abunch of the material on this site can help you with the healing process.

And as if doing it for yourself wasn't enough, do it for your children, who are learning stuff that they will apply in their relationship from their father. (And I use the word father loosely). In other words, it affects more than just you.

I have extra copies, if you need one, let me know.

This book can change your life.

It changed mine and my wife's. (I have a posting detailing some of the stuff in our situation from back around 12/13 of last year, titled 'SOme observations...'. ) You may find it useful.

I was also in an abuse situation wher emy son wsa used as a pawn. So common in this scenario. I would consult an attorney before i made a move and even if you dont plan to any time soon. These things can ecalate quickly.

Luckily I had taken my own advice and consulted an attorney becasue one night things escalated and I had to get out right then. I had been still trying to work on it some and hoping he would come around at that time. I was going to give it a bit more time and then go if he would nto come around but then bam it escalated and I needed to leave.

Sorry to say that he still uses my son to control me. I have cutody, but sounds like your H is not threatening and scarey, mine is. Never put a hand on me but did not need to. The things he did were worse.

I strongly suggest that if you ever are hit etc that you immediately call the police. I know people do not like to do this and dont want to get the spouse in troubel. But you must protect yourself. And you will be quite upset with yourself if at a later date your spouse and you are appart and he DOES start fighting for custody and you dont have any proof that he was abusive. It is sad but true.

With a person like this you need to document whatever you can just incase you have to protect yourself in the future. If you split from him, unless he changes, you will find he has absolutely NO problem using any and all means to try and turn things around to point a finger at you even in cases where you have done absolutely nothing and in fact he may blame you for things he himself did.

A friend of mine had an abusive H, verbal and emotional not physical, who when he discovered she was going to leave waited up for her to come home from a late night at work. Then he told her to get out that night. Of course the home they lived in was in his name and in thta case you can ask even your spouse to leave whenever you want to according to my lawyer.

IT is amazing to me how many of these abusers come up with an excuse to put everything in their name and we being naive and in love let them!

Anyway, she said just let me sleep. I will call in the morning to get people to help me move my things. He says no. Then he starts backing her down the stairs and starts pushing her to the door. She scratches him to get him away. He pushes her more and she finally picks up a vase and throws it by him, not at him (which I think she would have been justified in doing).

She said he then promptly fell on the floor , screamed and went and got the phone and called 911. Before he dialed he went and held her against the door like he had trapped an intruder.

Then he dials 911 and tells them he feels faint, is going to pass out, needs and ambulance etc etc. Goes to the hospital and get xrayed! She goes to jail overnight. Is released from jail and has no clothes , nothing from the home for the next 3 months because the house is in his name only AND he gets a restraining order!!! Charges HER with domestic violence. She ends up waiving her rights to practically everything in the divorce in order to get him to drop the charges!

My friend is a very frail person. Her H is about 6 foot, 220 lbs. Without a weapon believe me their would be no contest. In fact most six year old boys could take her out! When she was arrested, the policeman APOLOGIZED for having to handcuff her. At the police station they tried to talk her into charging him with false arrest but she was too afraid of the reprocussions by that time.

At least they saw that the chances of it going down the way her Ex said were not likely. They still had to arrest her because HE called 911 and HE had the marks from her scratching in self defense.

I tell this story a lot just becasue I think it demonstrates that you mut be prepared to deal with whatever may come with these guys. I understnd people wanting to try and work through this stuff and sometimes it is fixable. So if you go that route I wish you the best. But please dont make the mistake of not protecting yourself and the best interests of your child. As long as they are abusive you kinda have to think two steps ahead of them to keep from being stepped on.

I also strongly suggest a good abuse counselor, not just a run of the mill guy out fo the phone bood, AND a deadline for compliance from your H. Otherwise you could find yourself in this same situation 10 yeasr from now only NOW you also have 14 year old that has been role modeling him and acts just like him!

Good luck to you.
You might want to try posting on the emotional needs board, more action over there!

Jaye ~ I have ordered the book that you suggested and can't wait to get it. I am ready for something to change my life... I'd used up all the ideas that I had.

There is so much information on this site. I first came here a few months ago, just reading and relating. Then my husband searched through history and found the site (I wasn't trying to hide anything) and told me how stupid it is to share your intimate problems with total strangers, and how this site is a bunch of miserable wives "pissing and moaning" blah blah blah...

So in order to avoid conflict, I stopped coming. Now I'm back....sneaking around mind you!

little girl...thanks for your post. You seem to have a lot of experience in this matter and I thank you for sharing it with me. You've given me some good advice! I've already experienced a lot of that controlling behavor. Somehow...each situation always turns out being my fault.

I am so sad that you're going through this situation, but I can benefit so much from your experiences. My H doesn't have to physically abuse me to hurt me and he knows exatly what to say and do to hurt me worse than any beating. To be isolated from family and friends and to spend every spare minute of every day in his presence has broken my spirits. I know I've ALLOWED him to put me in some of these situations...just in order to keep the peace. I want a change. I want to be happy. I want my kids to be happy.

I am going to read the book Jaye suggested and keep reading here. Thanks again.

As a former abuser, I can tell you this.

You have to be able to risk *everything* to put a stop to it. Because somebody that's "rotten to the core" or perhaps "abusive to the core", will push and push and push to the very end with the very last fiber of their being.

For 8-9 years, my wife bore the brunt of my manipulation, scheming, deceit, and verbal abuse.

It wasn't until it reached the point of stop or it's over that it rocked me back on my heels, and we could work towards resolution.

But I can safely say that if she had not had the level of resolve to tell me, "the abuse stops and you may not treat me that way, and in fact may not live in this house until you treat me with respect", nothing ever would've changed.

You may have to reach that state yourself, where you're willing to risk everything. The relationship, the whole enchilada.

But it would be more wrong to continue in a relationship that's degrading to you, that abuses you and does nothing to build you up. It sets a horrible example of relating to your children, it sends messages of it's OK to treat women this way, and they just have to take it. And looking at your relationship with your H, I'm guessing you wouldn't wish that on your future DIL.

Have courage. The book is scary. It will expose behaviors that you may have just become "accustomed" to. It will give you exercises and things to say to practice to help stop unhealthy talk before it has a chance to take root.

I'm re-reading it myself just to remind me of where I don't want to be.

Jaye,

Seeing that you were willing to tackle your behavior and are now able to call yourself a former abuser gives me hope. I tried to look up your former posts but couldn't find any dated 12/13 (I couldn't look that far back). I'll try again when I have more time.

I am at the point of giving an ultimatum and risking everything. I feel like what we have really isn't worth keeping. I look at my kids and worry about the effect a marriage like this is effecting them or will effect them in the long run. The youngest is becomming so manipulating (wonder where he got that?) and I know it isn't healthy for him to be so spoiled. It's almost as if he knows that he is the thing holding our family together.

My son yells at us when he is served the wrong kind of cereal, when he doesn't like what I've picked out for him to wear, and basically when anything doesn't go his way. When we are out in public it embarrasses me. When we are at home, I remind him that he is not to talk to his parents like that. I give him alot less tolerance for this type of behavior than his Dad.

But putting on aires out in public is a big time favorite thing to do for Dad. Acting like the loving supportive Dad and Husband for all to see! So when Son acts like a Brat out in public (doing what he gets away with at home) it is very embarrassing for Dad. Dad's yelling at Son and for SOME reason Son doesn't obey. I end up removing Son from the situation or walking away.

No one enjoys family outtings in my family.

I blame myself for letting things get this bad. Now it's time for change.

Here's the original post: here

In this thread, I responded with more of what was going through my head during the reformation process.

With the exception of people that my wife may have discussed the issue with, nobody knew there was any problems. Manipulators are good at masking emotions, making everything seem OK on the outside. They lie, twist words, and are deceitful in just about every way.

When the evans book arrives, find yourself a nice quiet place, a box of tissue, a notepad, some pencils, and above all *solitude*.

Then read the *whole* book. Be very objective. Put yourself as a silent observer looking at the relationship as a fly on the wall. Map the behaviors that you can recall to their counterparts documented in the book. Do *not* make excuses for either your behavior, or your husbands. *Write down* specific situations that occured. How you responded, how he responded. Take the surveys. Record specific answers. (writing it down will serve a couple purposes. 1), is that you have in a moment of clarity, documented what you feel, which may not be the same int he middle of a big blowout, and 2) you will need it for the exercises later.

This is not a fault-finding excersize. This is a rediscover your self-esteem and self-respect and dignity excersize. A time and place for you to step back and really evaluate, with some concrete guidelines to follow, the communication methods/dynamics used in your relationship.

It's a time to grieve for the old you. It's a time to grieve for the time that you have lost in the relationship.

It's also a time now to start rediscovering joy. That you're going to take positive steps to heal yourself. If that encourages your husband to change, good. But the ultimate purpose is *not* to change your H. Hopefully, that will just end up being a nice sideffect. The ultimate purpose is to protect yourself, and re-establish your own sense of self-worth.


AFter you finish, (and if it takes a couple days, then so be it. Try not to engage your H in anything. Don't walk on eggshells, but don't bring anything up either.

Then go back, and re-read the sections on how to address the person abusing you. (And you may want to consider using it with your son as well, but that's a topic for a different time). Set the chairs up and practice it. Take the scenarios that you wrote down originally, speak your H's part, and then do whatever step you're going to take. Stick a picture of your H on that char, and say whatever it is right to his image.

Envision some scenarios that may arise. He may become *extremely* angry. Do you have someplace you can go in an emergency. Do you have a cel phone or friend that you can go to if you end up having to leave in order to avoid more abuse? Even a little bit of cash, and the directions to a motel will suffice.

Practice responding to some of the blocking and diverting (all well documented in the book) methods he will use.

You want to walk in to your next relational conversation *prepared*. And not shooting from the hip. Because you're talking about changing behaviors that in yourself, have been there for years. And in stressful situations, we tend to revert back to what we know, and as you can tell, what you currently know isn't healthy.

Also, being prepared will help you develop your courage. Because this will take courage. If you're *really* risking it all, then that takes significant courage, and it might be what it takes to bring about change.

This is not a setup for sandbagging your H with a long list of relational demands. The simple point is to stop the abuse. It may take some time. Frankly, until you had a chance to apply the principles to a few AO's from your H, I wouldn't even start a discussion. Leave the initiating an AO to your H, so that you can respond appropriately.

Last thing. It's ultimately, not about blame. We can always find faults with each other, and worrying about blame is unproductive time. I submit that *stopping* the abuse, and then moving forward will be far more constructive. And later, once you guys are communicating "relationally", and not out of defensiveness or anger, then there may be specific historical issues that you may want to discuss.

I am not advocating that the past is no longer an issue, because it is. Even if your H stopped as the first word left your lips, the wounds and hurts will still be there. And they will take time to heal. But I am saying that until you can talk, you can't resolve anything about the past, so why bother? Why spend the energy on fruitless exercise?

And really lastly, if you want, my wife has expressed a willingness to talk to any woman that is looking to apply these principles. She's as close to an expert in it as I know. And she has a true desire to see relationships healed, and this is stuff that can really help. If you want to get her perspective, you can call her, or if you need support, she can help. (I run most of my postings by her so that she can back-stop me, and we had discussed doing this previously, and she is enthusiastic about it).

Good luck. It really is lifechanging stuff.

Wow! There's a lot of information to let soak in. I like the advice about reading the book before trying to approach my H. What I want the most is to be able to present this in a way that makes him receptive to working on our marriage. One faulse move and he will close up tight and get angry. I also like the idea of having a back up plan. One time he was so angry with me, he took my purse and my car keys. I couldn't go to work for 2 days. I won't let that happen again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by texaslady:
<strong> What I want the most is to be able to present this in a way that makes him receptive to working on our marriage. One faulse move and he will close up tight and get angry. I also like the idea of having a back up plan. One time he was so angry with me, he took my purse and my car keys. I couldn't go to work for 2 days. I won't let that happen again. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I applaud the goal. I have mixed feelings about the order.

The perception that some how you'll make a "false" move is kind of scary. Because it implies that even in the process of healing, you have to do it on his terms.

But the whole issue is that his terms suck. I mean, literally. I'm not saying he sucks, but that he is manipulating you, and functioning in Reality 1 (covered in the book), and you're in Reality 2.

I believe your first goal has to be stopping the abuse. Your husband has *zero* incentive to stop. Why? Because what's he's doing is already working out OK for him. Because you can't work on your marriage while being abused. Think about it. We're boxers. I keep hitting you. Even when your hands are down, and you tell me "Stop, I just want to heal". And Bam, Bam, Bam, I just keep whaling away on you. Are you ever gonna heal? No. Am I ever gonna become "Mr. Sensitive", and stop? Nope.

Now the same scenario occurs, but when you say stop, the star-trek forcefield comes on. He may keep punching and jabbing for a while, but they don't land. You will be serene in your new-found confidence that you are doing the right thing. The mean vile things he might say, you will just smile sweetly at, and ignore. Because you know they're vicious, mean, spiteful remarks, made out of fear and anger. And eventually, he's going to stop swinging (for any of a variety of reason), and then you will be able to present your desire to work with him to heal the relationship.

I cannot stress enough the value of the evans book. The Evans book won't fix your marriage. That's not its purpose. It just helps you stop the abuse.

Then you whip out BC and the EN ?'s, and all the tools and resources, and start working on them. An dhopefully your H will too. And together, you can build a relationship that's the envy of everyone you know.

Thanks Jaye. Your words are very insiteful and powerful. Looks like I won't get the book in time to read this weekend, but maybe in reading your posts (and others) I have a basis in which to handle the weekend. I remember how much I used to love weekends. Now I dread weekends for the most part, because H and I have roughly 60 hours straight together!

I've noticed that for the past 4 weeks by the time Monday gets here I am physically ill. I wonder if the added stress at home is somewhat is the culprit. My Mom keeps asking if I'm worried or stressed about something. I don't want to get her involved. Then she asks H what wrong and he gives her HIS version of what's wrong (which makes me look like an imbesile). So she is left confused and worried.

Over the years my niece, Mom, and sister have all told me how they don't like how I've changed and how controlling H is. They miss the happy, outgoing person they used to know.

So, no matter how hard you try to hide things...

I originally tried to post this on Friday, but had computer problems.

It ended up that both children spent the night away from home on Saturday night. That was the longest 24 hours of my life! Constant arguing. I did notice myself not letting his controlling behavior get to me. I felt a little stronger than I usually do. I'm looking forward to reading the book.