Well, now I think I have heard it all. In a phone conversation with her sister, S mentioned the "affair". W replied that she had not had an affair. An affair is when you sleep with someone not your spouse over a period of many months.(I guess several times over 2-3 months doesn't count). S responded that an affair is an affair and maybe she(W) just didn't like the word. W replied that maybe that was true, that the word affair implied something bad and maintained that that isn't what she had.<P>Everytime I think I have reached my limit, something happens to pull me back from the brink and before I know it something like this pushes me right back. All I know is that time is getting short for this marriage.

I'm so sorry you're feeling this way, so am I, and it's an awful place to be.<P>Just when you think things are getting better, BAM!<P>My H has started listing my faults again! He's gotten distant and defensive, so I wonder whats going on. He's yelling about everything from the kids leaving dirty dishes in the sink, to our financial state.<P>I don't know that his rants bother me because of what he says or because it reminds me so much of the way he has acted in the past to cover up whatever he's feeling guilty about!<P>Maybe it's the season, but I hear the clock ticking off the minutes until I just throw in the towel.<P>I keep hearing "For everything there is a season, a time to love and a time to hate" and think perhaps this is really the natural course of things. And yet I keep hanging on, hoping this turmoil will have less an impact on my family (the kids) then leaving would.<P>Such a place to be.They say to get a rainbow you gotten have some rain, and I keep thinking YEP! and you need a little sunlight shine through too!<P>Take care!

Once Happy - <BR>I'm sorry that you are on that roller coaster too...W is also now listing my faults again to an appreciative audience, the OM. She was telling him how I never took care of things like my car, the lawn, etc. The funny thing is, that I moved out on May 15 and was gone until my two week move-back-in period three weeks ago. She admitted to me that the house had not been vacuumed since before I left. In fact, I was the last one to do it. She has killed all of the potted flowers I gave her over the three months due to lack of water. She complained to OM that I had neglected the trees we had just planted this spring. I do the lawn work once a week and try to limit the time I am at the house to comply with her wishes. She is there all the time she's not at work, but she couldn't get off her lazy butt to take care of anything, evidently because she couldn't complain about me that way.<P>The only times she watered any of the trees or flowers was when she would ask me about it first.<P>Now maybe you could forgive this if her neglect of the house and surroundings was due to great distress and pain in her life coming from our problems and her affair(Oh, yeah, she hasn't had one of those). But, she has told me and others how happy and content she has been with me out of the house, so, gee, I don't know what the problem is...(Rant mode off)

Heartpain,<P>Just trust that things will get better.<P>The "fault listing" is a defensive mechanism for them, I think. And can be so destructive. But now, when he lists my faults, I list my good qualities. He says, "the kitchen is a mess" and I say "I spent the afternoon bonding with the kids" and think (The kitchen isn't going anywhere, but the kids are growing up and time is short! ). He says "we have way too many bills because you cannot say no to your kids" and I say "We live in a nice house, in a nice neighborhood, and our kids are content", (and I think, I'll not say no to tuition and books and such, I will not compromise my kids to save a buck).<P>And on it goes, up and down the roller coaster. But the highs are not as high as they once were, and the lows keep getting lower.<P>Although my H won't admit it, I think he's waiting for me to stop this crazy ride. And perhaps I will. I almost believe my leaving will be a welcome event for him. I think he wants out, but he doesn't want to be the "bad" guy! I'm starting to think that as long as the blame isn't on him, it'll be okay. (Rant mode off)<P>Hang in there!

Once Happy...<P>You are so right...It's just that I am a type of man who really wants someone who cares to share the events of my life with...I'm taking flying lessons and hopefully will be soloing in the next 2-3 weeks. It would feel so good to have someone who cares there to share the moment with me.<P>The holidays are coming up and almost regardless of our situation, I will have to visit family alone. I have tickets to a concert at the end of October. It's a group I really like and, again, would like to share it with someone who cares for me. W really wants to go to this with me and that was our initial plan, but I feel used in that she wants to do fun things with me, but doesn't want to work on the marriage and seems to enjoy keeping me up in the air.<P>I have been so depressed over the last week or so that I just want to call it quits and try to find someone new.<P>I understand what you say about thinking that H wants you to end the "ride". I have believed for a long time that that is what W wants from me, even though she weakly protests against it. I could believe her protests if I didn't also know exactly what she is telling her mother, sister and OM.<P>Maybe we should get some of the others on the board in the same situation as us together and declare some date in the future as "Freedom Day"....<P>You do sound as if you are handling your tribulations better than I and I admire you for that...<P>You're right, it will get better, with or without the spouse.<P>You hang in there, too.

I'm in the same boat-I thought all morning about seperation. But then I think how much I still love my h. Its easy to think about how much I love him until he is actually present; then, its like who is this stranger. I wonder if this is normal? I, too, think my h. is afraid to end our marriage. Sometimes, I'm grateful for that. He even said he was afraid to end it. But I wonder if he is secretly hoping I will come to the end of my rope and leave or, that maybe I'll meet someone new. When I bring it up, he says its not true. He even says, don't talk that way. I've been going through this for seven months and I am tired.

Count me in among those where everything is my fault. The affair happened because I neglected her(this part is true but no mention that her anger drove me away). She left and moved in with om because I threw her out, they weren't dating they were just passing notes, threats of divorce papers 2 months ago but just received last week with 8-24 date on them, and now hint of joint counseling again if I want to. I guess if I say no then it will all be my fault and she can save some face.(rant mode on for the day!)

Another complicating factor is that W has been blasting me regularly to her mother and sister. She has told sister that she still loves me. My therapist agrees with me that W may be painting herself into a corner where her family has so much negative info that W will have to, as a matter of saving face, go the divorce route anyway. She tends to report every suspicion as fact. She has always been one, when she perceives a slight to herself, to be judge, jury and executioner without trial. She never confronted me until she had time to decide what happened that she didn't like, how it affected her behavior to me and WHY I did it. The last was the reason for most of our arguments. I took offense at her always deciding my motivations before talking to me. On top of that, once she has decided these things, there was/is no changing her mind. Nothing I would say could make her reconsider. The only way to any sort of peace was to confess to crimes and motivations that I wasn't involved in. Now that she has reported all of this to family, I think her pride will not allow her to reconcile.

Wow, very insightful, this fits so well with my situation. Telling family the bad stuff, so that her "position" is justified. That could be what my H is doing......<BR>His brothers and mother "know" something's up with us, but I've never told them anything about it. But when they come over, they ask vague questions.....or tell stories about other couples in a crisis over an affair, and wait for a reaction. So I think they may suspect that my H had an affair. BUT I know that my H has told his family how awful I am with money and that I spend way too much. (True to a point, but I spend on the kids NEEDS and yes kids a very expensive! Two teenagers can drain your checkbook fairly quickly!)<BR>Maybe this is in preparation so I can be the bad guy again, that I dug him into a finiancial hole.......kind of rings true.<BR>BTW, I spend no more then I can afford...I have a good job, and yest sometimes I overindulege the kids, but no more so now then in the last 18 years)<BR>We all must keep our heads up, and remember we are good people! We've made mistakes, and are willing to work at fixing them.....

Once Happy -<BR>I haven't told my family anything yet even though it's been almost 5 months and I have lived in the apartment for over 3 months. The reason is that W has a problem even being around people that she suspects or hallucinates of knowing something negative about her or feeling negative about her. Therefore, if I did tell any of my family, it would be unlikely that she would be able to see them for years(until she could get rid of the paranoia). When I made this decision, she agreed with my logic(this type of behavior has been going on since before my time with her). Now, even though she agreed with me on my approach to my family during a calm, thoughtful conversation, she has now told OM, family and therapist that she doesn't know why I am reluctant to tell my family.<P>Anyway, we definitely are in the same boat. In one other calm, thoughtful conversation with W, I was trying to address her vitriol towards me and I said to her that I was not a "bad person", she replied "I know you're not, I do love you". On many occasions before and since, she trashes me regularly with comments she tells the above conspiritors and not to me.<P>If you look at my posting from yesterday "Definitions", you see that she doesn't even feel she had an affair. Incredible! She is doing things so far out of character to justify her actions that it's not even like the same person. When we first married, she wouldn't lie to anyone to save her life. Many times, she took my offer to be the bad guy to turn down appointments and invitations that she didn't want, by letting me lie for her. That was OK for her, but she couldn't do it. Now she lies like a rug and is trying to make deception an art form.<P>You are right, let's keep our heads up. We ARE good people and we deserve better.<P>Good luck

Just my honest opinion here...<P>Ummm, a question here, have you all worked through The Policy of Joint Agreement, Plan A and/or B, the emotional needs questionaire, love busters questionaire, etc.?<P>What you all are talking about with regards to lying and listing faults, etc. is all covered in the above, I think it would help if you were to read it and work through it.<P>Reading and working through it with my H,<BR>Thoughtful<BR>

Thoughtful -<P>The first problem there for me is that W cannot decide if she wants to even try. I have even suggested passive trial, but she doesn't want any part of any of it right now, so there won't be any working together...