I think the simply answer to your question "how common it is for men to look at porn while there married or involved in a relationship?" - Very Common

The statistics show the facts, porn is making billions and billions everyday.

Most porn is simply giving men an unrealistic fantasy world of sex. It simply degrades and disrespects women.

There is absolutely no need for it. If your husband wants to have entertainment or material on sex. Then is should be educational to you both, and porn is not.

You should simply approach it honestly, try to be non judgmental and don't be hysterical.

Try and ask questions that will tell you what he wants out of porn. If he is still watching and hiding, find the tape and put it on for him and watch it beside him. This should make him feel ashamed, if it does then you know at least he has some moral sense that this is not right. If he likes it and doesn't care then he is simply showing disrespect to you and this will certaintly lead to disaster.

Good luck.

If you do have any insight to share with me I would be like to read it. As a man I question why so many men find this material acceptable.

I sometimes wonder whether part of the allure towards porn is resentment towards women. A lot of men resent the power women seem to posess with regards to their control of sex. Maybe their porn viewing is more of a adolescent type of rebellion against those who they view in a position of power [women]. It's really sad because if instead of wasting away time with porn, and feeling sorry for themselves, they should be trying to learn about women [instead of relying on equally ignorant male friends] and what the common denominators are that attract women to want sex. And secretly partaking in an activity that causes many a women to suffer is definitely NOT a way to want them to have sex.

TMCM

You know that is an interesting thought - it really makes sense to me. It sounds like something my H would do - consistent with his passive aggressive way of "communicating" his needs in general. Maybe that's why I reacted so strongly to it too.

Grad,

I agree 100% with what you said--men and women both need to take responsibility for their own actions or lack thereof and not blame everyone else for their choices. Who cares what everyone else is doing-

The real problem here is lack of open and honest communication within the marriage. And very possible an immature understanding of dealing with problems.

Marriage requires work, it requires both husband and wife respecting each other enough to be honest and open about everything, even if they know what they say MIGHT hurt the other persons feelings, but knowing they are adult enough to handle their own feelings without lashing out in their hurt.

And the problem with that is--most people DON'T know how to handle their own hurts, so they lash out, getting angry and upset, even though their spouses did not mean to hurt them (it wasn't an intentional hurt) it was one done out of love and respect to bring growth and depth to the marriage.

Foreverhers,

I don't why your blasting TheGraduate here, your saying the exact same thing she is--with the exception your making excuses for men (even single men) who turn to porn, she is not. And she happens to be RIGHT, if women held men to a higher standard (and YES even as CHRISTIAN Women, more so of Christian women, it should be expected to hold men to a higher standard) and let them know this is unacceptable behavior in their relationship--and drop kick those men to the curb men would begin to understand just how damaging porn is to a relationship and to their OWN Spiritual growth.

If you don't think it's a wife's responsibility to hold her husband accountable--your mistaken. Do you honestly think Matthew 18:15-17 *excludes* marriage relationships????

First you go to your spouse alone and discuss the problem, if that doesn't help, then you bring in outside help.

That sure sounds like it would include marriage and dating relationships--especially when you love and care about them.

So do not blast The Graduate, in her understanding of what is required of boundaries in a relationship. I think she has a pretty good grasp of what a Christian marriage should be like. (even though she may not be a Christian)

ThornRose,

The problem is that 'The Graduate' after 2 failed marriages no longer beleives in the institution, has acknowledged her rejection of MB, and is well known for her misandrist comments. Like many feminists, she places all the blame on men and none on women.

TMCM

Actually, I have seen her blast just as many women as she has men over the years for their bad behaviors.

I don't think she hates marriage, nor do I beleive she hates men. I do however believe she hates when people hold their past mistakes over them, when they themselves have made similiar mistakes and refuse to acknowledge them.

She, from my understanding of reading MANY of her posts over the years, prefers when people hold themselves accountable for their own choices, and to the *same* standard by which they judge others.

Granted she may not be a Christian, but she holds to many beliefs that are taught in the Bible.

And just because she rejects many of the MB principles, as they did not work in her previous marriage, for whatever reason, doesn't mean she hates men or marriage.

I'm curious, did you even READ her previous posts on this thread??? Or is your view of her tainted by your past experiences?? If you *REALLY* read what she wrote you would see that YOU are wrong, in assumptions.

But I'm curious how is it 'feminist' to expect men to be accountable for their own actions?

How is is "feminist" to expect men to practice the use of 'self-control' even when it comes to their sexual behaviors???

I don't think that is a feminist stance, I do however, beleive it is a BIBLICAL Stance. As self-control is just ONE of the fruits of the Spirit.

By Grad
It doesn't matter what others here think, or if porn is considered "normal" for men. The only thing that matters is how you feel about it.


By OHCopLover after bashing Grad
It doesn't matter what we think, it matters what you think and feel. The Graduate is right, most men will take a real woman who treats them with respect, love, and meets thier need, over porn, any day.

And by TMCM after saying exactly what Grad said.
TMCM
The problem is that 'The Graduate' after 2 failed marriages no longer beleives in the institution, has acknowledged her rejection of MB, and is well known for her misandrist comments. Like many feminists, she places all the blame on men and none on women.

By ForeverHers
TheGraduate - spoken like a true nonbeliever who has NO CLUE what biblical submission is like or what it means for either husband or wife.

And what does believing and submission have to do with porn?! What does Grad's marital record have to do with her offering a VERY MB opinion?

Perhaps some see the poster's name and make assumptions about her attitude and what's contained within the posts.

By OHCopLover
I always love your tone Graduate, so emphatheic. Well, maybe if we'd have REAL women who treated us like men... I suppose one could phrase it that way too no?

I think she was saying NOTHING about REAL men, though I'm seeing far fewer of them on the boards these days (and that comment doesn't necessarily apply to this thread). This was TOTALLY about porn, the comment about REAL women.

TMCM,

Please read this thread. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

I think you made an important point on this thread that pertains to that one. It starts innocently enough, but it turns rather quickly. It got ugly, but I sure wouldn't mind a MAN standing up for men's right to be responsible. Or, even if you were to just give me a man's perspective on it, that maybe is more objective than what happened here.

Thanks,

~ZP

Hmm, she's posting in support of MB principles on this thread. Her marital history is not relevant to her ability to post in support of MB principles.


Ah yes, the age-old "I don't like what you say, therefore you must hate me and anyone with the same genitalia as me" argument. Graduate has torqued off quite a few women on this board too, but they don't claim that she has some kind of *gasp* hatred of women.


This is easily proved false by reading just what Graduate has posted on this thread.

Now, back to the orginal posters question....

I am wondering how common it is for men to look at porn while there married or involved in a relationship? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Shandy, Unfortunately it is all too common, and because society in general tells people--this is what MEN DO, it's an even bigger problem than most people care to acknowledge,
because lo and behold if you stand against such things your a PRUDE, or Your trying to deny their 'right'; or gasp "your a Religous right fundamentalist wacko (which I think is rather comical knowing how many men and women who are NOT Christians that speak out against Porn) and the damage it does to relationships.

I personally do not know who men think gave them the 'right' or why they even think it's a 'right' to view women as objects for their sexual pleasure. They can't say it's a God given right, as per the Bible, God expects men to treat women with respect and to practice self-control in that area, and considers lusting after someone other than their spouse to be equal to adultry.

So even though yes, it is common, doesn't make it 'right'. (to me, it just shows how many folks have a lack of self control)and would cause me to wonder what other areas they lack self-control.

Also, how does the women approach the subject to him if he hides this?

You approach it openly and honestly. About how you feel about his viewing porn. Honestly, it doesn't matter WHY he views porn, just that you have a problem with it in the confines of a relationship with You.

This is a boundaries issue, and the same thing as if a spouse/dating partner was involved in an affair, a problem drinker, a drug abuser, or even a smoker.

If you choose not to be in a relationship with someone who cheats, drinks, does drugs, smokes, or even looks at porn that is ultimately YOUR CHOICE. They can not force you to accept their behavior any more than you can force them to change their behavior.

So the question becomes if this is not what you want in your relationship, and he chooses to do this, do YOU want to stay in this relationship?

Which is why I say talk openly and honestly about this issue. So that you have all the information needed to make an informed decision about this relationship and if it should continue, and even if you want it to continue.

A word of caution, if he ignores your feelings about this subject matter now, he will eventually ignore your feelings about other issues as well. Blanket statement, yes it is.

If this issue is THAT important to you, then he should respect your opinions and feelings on this, just as you should respect his, and if his porn use is THAT important to him, and you have a problem with it, then end the relationship based on respect for both of you. Respecting your boundaries of not having it in your life, and his boundaries for having it in his. That is really the most loving choice a person could make.

While this may be anecdotal and cannot be regarded as gospel, I've talked to quite a few of my fellow married men friends regarding porn viewing and I've gotten a common response from those who view their present sex lives with their wives as good but used to view porn in the past. These men have told me that when they used to view porn they often found themselves very resentful of women in general. Like alcohol abuse, it felt great while they were engaging in it but afterwards came the big emotional letdown that things were still the same if not worse. It wasn't until they experienced the big epiphany that porn viewing [like alcohol abuse] was destroying them emotionally and spiritually. They also realized that, unlike their wives, they could not simply walk away from it because it was a part of them and would follow them no matter what happened to their marriages.

It's hard for women to understand porn viewing's seduction of men because women don't have to deal with their bodies producing 10 times the amount of testosterone [the libido hormone] that our male bodies produce and because their sexual stimulation is not visually based like ours. This in no way, shape or form excuses men from viewing porn but should be taken into account before engaging in a futile attempt to beat men over the heads with it. Remember that neither the theocracies or secular governments of the world have been able to end it with their repressive or liberal policies. A much better approach towards ending porn viewing is if the message was put out to young men [especially pre-pubescent boys] that just like with alcohol and drugs, the first victims of porn are not women but the men who view it. Some men will accept the message and many won't but those men who make the committment to end their porn viewing will be the healthy seeds that will spread the message of enlightened self interest to other men.

I hope this old guy's lunatic rant of mine helped [as I take my Geritol and settle back into my Lazy-Boy rocking chair <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />]

TMCM

TMCM,

I agree 100% though I don't believe its just their hormones, it's also the images that get burned into their minds that continue to draw them back to the porn.

And it does harm them, and they begin to resent women for not keeping their figures looking like that, or not performing sexually the way these porn stars (on drugs) do.

And many of these porn stars have had numerous abortions as opposed to having children, and so when women DO actually have children and their bodies change, men get upset.

I think porn gives men a false sense of what women are really like.

Thorned Rose - I don't know what your problem is and I really don't care. It's very obvious from what you wrote that you don't understand much about what true biblical "submission" is all about, or something in your personal life is coloring your reading and your responses.

The Graduate "blasts" men, particularly Christian men, by accusing them of justifying Porn usages while the "little lady" is just "supposed to be submissive" to whatever they want.

That is NOT what biblical submission is like or what it's all about.

I'm sorry that you have such a weak grasp on biblical perspectives, but "dating" and "marriage" ARE two vastly different things. Here's the biblical perspective for sex: NO SEX (no porn, no premarital sex, etc.) with anyone prior to marriage or with anyone other than your spouse after marriage. Sex is reserved for marriage. Period.

Can, and do, humans break that command of God? You bet they do...all the time, especially the hormonally driven males. But that does NOT make it right. A significant number of women have premarital sex and commit adultery after marriage for the same "reason," they CHOOSE to obey their own wants, desires, and lusts instead of humbly obeying God.

Do people have problems of all kinds within a marriage? You bet. And the majority of those problems can be traced back to two primary problems. 1)Selfishness. Putting "self" and "feelings and desires" ahead of spouse or anyone else. 2)Pride. Lack of submsission to God's will and putting one's self-pride at the top of the "behavior chain."

So I hope it made you feel better to castigate me for stating the truth. I do hope you'll find the answers to what is bugging you and preventing you from simply surrendering to God and advocating something as simple and right as "Obey God, not your own feelings."

Nowhere did I say that Porn was "okay" for men and not "okay" for women.

You want to "drop kick" men to the curb? Be my guest. You DO NOT have to have anyone in your life that you don't want in your life. It is YOUR RIGHT to associate or not associate. It is YOUR RIGHT to establish your own Boundaries, whatever you choose for those Boundaries and the subsequent Consequences that would trigger if someone violated your "space" (Boundary). You want to get at helping them to overcome an addiction to porn and understand some of the reasons why porn is so "attractive" to so many men, then the "drop kicking" will enforce YOUR boundary but will do nothing to help the men choose to not use porn. They will simply see you as "frigid" and "controlling" and 'move on' to someone not as "uptight" as you. They will rationalize their destructive behavior because such rationalizations are what ALL humans are good at in order to justify sin in their lives.

What IS "bugging you" in your life, Thorned Rose? Is there something that we might be able to talk about or help you with?

God bless.

Oh no doubt about that but don't dismiss the hormone levels so readily for it has been shown through studies that testosterone is THE libido hormone not just in men but in women as well. Many women's lost libido has been resurrected through small doses of testosterone.

Secondly, remember that most men become acquainted with the experience of orgasm long before women do. Boys start having 'wet dreams' at the onset of puberty and become 'hooked' on orgasms through the practice of masturbation. Also unlike most women who normally require the establishment an emotional connection before they can achieve orgasm, most men can readily have one simply via images [even non-porn images] of attractive women. This gender difference makes men more susceptible than women to the visual seduction of porn.


And THAT is the insidiousness of porn for it ultimately divides men and women further than they already are. It makes men search for orgasm ,through sexual intercourse, become 'the holy grail' without the wisdom of learning to love their women FIRST.

On a much more personal note. I loved my mother very much and of all of the wise words she gave me, the following have stayed with me since the first time she said them decades ago:


Those words became permanently etched in my mind and prevented me from taking advantage of any girl who might have had strong in-love feelings for me. When I told my mother this, she was pleased and said that those words were not for the sole benefit of the girl I liked but to benefit me as well. I asked her how woud it benefit me, and she said that if I took advantage of any young woman for my own selfish desires, the harm is not just to her but to me as well. In other words, she said, "Before you can harm another human being, you must firm harm yourself", the victimizer has to victimize himself first.

Who knows, but if more porn viewing men would start seeing the faces of their mothers, sisters or daughters on the faces of those porn actresses, they just might see the harm they are doing not only to them but to themselves as well. After all, it's very hard to hurt another human beign when you see the face of a loved one on that other person's face staring back at you, isn't it?

TMCM

Shandy,

In after divorce and dating there is a thread going on about the same topic check it out. Please. I am dealing with the same exact thing you are right now.

Foreverhers,

I actually have no problem understanding Biblical Submission, and Thegraduate wasn't saying that women should be submissive and just accept that their husbands view porn.

She is actually saying they need to set boundaries with these men. And yes, dropping kicking them to the curb ending the relationship (when your dating or engaged to them) if you find they are addicted to porn is the answer. And even within a Christian marriage you set boundaries, but these SHOULD have been set and known BEFORE the marriage took place.

It has nothing to do with being frigid and if that is how they choose to view me, then apparently they didn't know me well enough to be engaged to me to begin with.

And The Graduate calls them like she see's them in her own experience, and there are MANY Christian men who do justify their porn usage that the 'little woman' is supposed to be submissive and not say anything. (I've personally known many of them)

And I know that is NOT what Biblical submission is about, it is about being submitted first and foremost to God, who gives the ability to set healthy Boundaries to begin with.

And I actually have an awesome husband who knew my stance on porn before we married, and who threw all of his in thrash way before ever married.

But, yes, I will still stand by what I said, Christian women need to drop kick these men to the curb who are *addicted* to porn before they even marry them, and they need to let them know WHY they are ending the relationship. And if the man feels the porn isn't as important as his relationship HE will address the issue and seek help.

I agree. If more women did this and explained why maybe more men would seek out help. There are way too many men getting married who are addicted to porn that need help. Maybe instead of kicking them to the curb, how about enrolling them in a sexual addiction recovery program instead. I could have used one before I got married. Sure would have saved me and my wife a lot of grief. Thank the Lord I'm free of it now.

Art would you email me some time. I'd like to find what steps/procedures worked well for you in recovery? I've abstained but it's difficult. The pull, or allure, comes and goes. Part of it is because I'm alone, divorced..she is dating...I don't want to for some time.

Even if we do not reconcile I want to have this item in my life fixed. [email]kclongshot99@yahoo.com.[/email] Thanks

-- Maybe instead of kicking them to the curb, how about enrolling them in a sexual addiction recovery program instead. I could have used one before I got married. Sure would have saved me and my wife a lot of grief.

Looking back had your *girlfriend* even tried to 'enroll' you into a recovery program how would YOU have responded??

Most men would have told their GIRLFRIEND to take a walk.

Did you even realize YOU had a problem with Porn back then?
Of course not, it wasn't a problem for you until it began effecting your marriage and your wife made it your problem
and you began to feel the effects of it on your relationship.

I mean much like the drunk, they are the last ones to acknowledge they have a problem, why? Because it isn't a PROBLEM for them, even though everyone around them has a problem with it. They don't see the need to get help.

When your already married you can seperate until the person gets help.

KC I'll try to get a note out to you this weekend.

And ThornedRose is right, it takes some toughlove to get a sex addict to realize they have a problem. Or realize you are totally out of control and cannot seem to stop the rollercoaster.

Did I know I had a problem back then, no, because all men are tricked into believing porn is just a part of being a man.