I am wondering how common it is for men to look at porn while there married or involved in a relationship? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Also, how does the women approach the subject to him if he hides this?

Hiding it is not a healthy thing....
Its better to be open.
Let us know more if you wish,

Nick

I think the reason he was hiding this is because he was afraid of my reaction.My first response when I found was anger, then hurt. I just need someone to talk to so I can understand more. I don't know how common this is. I want to know more of why men do this.

It doesn't matter what others here think, or if porn is considered "normal" for men. The only thing that matters is how you feel about it.

You should not feel like you have to compromise on this if you don't want to. I don't believe in ultimatums, but I do believe in voting with my feet....If more women gave men the heave ho who made a habit of using porn, then men would know...hmm, I can either have a REAL woman next to me, or I can have a fake, made up one. Too many men get to have their cake and eat it too because women won't chuck-em...

He hides it because it is a secret world, and he knows that ultimately its wrong. Do some research on pornography addiction, and there is alot of information to help you. I think each man is different in his strength to control himself, but with mine...I had to give the ultimatim... I love my husband, he loves me..and we are working on this by FINALLY (after 13 years) being able to actually talk about it together.

You deserve his respect, you are his wife...and if you lay the foundation early maybe he'll stop for you.

The porn hurts me...but when you have a house full of children...the time comes when you break the cycle else it will get passed on to your little ones. My husband got porn addicted by sneaking and looking his fathers dirty magazines and video tapes. See what I mean???

Be strong... Love makes a Family. He wont want to lose you over the porn, trust me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TheGraduate:
<strong>

You should not feel like you have to compromise on this if you don't want to. I don't believe in ultimatums, but I do believe in voting with my feet....If more women gave men the heave ho who made a habit of using porn, then men would know...hmm, I can either have a REAL woman next to me, or I can have a fake, made up one. Too many men get to have their cake and eat it too because women won't chuck-em... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I always love your tone Graduate, so emphatheic. Well, maybe if we'd have REAL women who treated us like men... I suppose one could phrase it that way too no?

Shandy,

It doesn't matter what we think, it matters what you think and feel. You need to find a way to discuss this with him, and let him know honestly what you feel, without putting him down at the same time.

If his bothers you, and you are meeting his sexual needs, he needs to know that, and make a decision based on that. When it comes down to it, The Graduate is right, most men will take a real woman who treats them with respect, love, and meets thier need, over porn, any day.

<small>[ March 16, 2005, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: OHCopLover ]</small>

...and if men didn't view relationships as a tool for getting built-in domestic and childcare services, maybe they'd get more "action"...

Hey graduate

The TradeMark you use makes me wonder "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. -- Thomas Jefferson"

Porn in secrecy is not healthy... it is not for me to judge if porn it is right or wrong. My point is anything in secrecy is wrong.

The question was not if porn is right or wrong... I understand the question to be... is it right that the porn is hidden, "is it common".

I do not think it is common, I think it is periodic.

Nick

<small>[ March 17, 2005, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: Pick on Nick ]</small>

Pick on Nick,

I'm not judging the merits (or lack) of porn at all... I could really care less what consenting adults do in their free time. What I DO care about is the double standard applied to men's behavior. Usually, the defense is that it's "common" for men to use porn. Well, so what. If you are a woman who doesn't want to be with a man who uses porn, it doesn't matter if it is common or not. I could really care less what his motivation is for using it either. People spend way too much time trying to figure out other people's motivations rather than just focusing on the behavior itself.

It was my impression from the initiator of this thread that she was hurt by her H's use of porn...I only encouraged her to go by HER OWN feelings on it, and not be encouraged to overlook it just because some people say it is "common" for men. My first H asked for an open marriage (HA!) after we were married for a year..I declined. Just because something is out in the "open" doesn't mean she has any obligation to go along with it. Doing it in secret, well, that would be worse, I suppose. Only because it delays the inevitable, which is her option to choose to accept it or not. Still, the end result is usually the same. Most people don't agree to accept certain behavior in their spouse just because they decide to not keep it a secret.

My quote about Thomas Jefferson...well, I believe apathy leads to alot of bad things... Maintaining intellectual, financial, political, and spiritual freedom requires effort.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TheGraduate:
<strong> ...and if men didn't view relationships as a tool for getting built-in domestic and childcare services, maybe they'd get more "action"... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Geez, that is harsh! What about those of us who ARE the built-in domestic and childcare providor that don't get "action"?

Not condoning porn, nor condemning it, I couldn't care less one way or the other what other people do together in the privacy of their own relationships.

How 'bout this one?
Maybe if more women didn't see a man as a paycheck, and put out more they wouldn't have to worry about cheating?

sounds as bad as your statement doesn't it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TheGraduate:
<strong> ...and if men didn't view relationships as a tool for getting built-in domestic and childcare services, maybe they'd get more "action"... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hehe, you bark up the wrong tree.

There are those of us who do all the domestic relations, and child care, and still "get none."

But, that is off topic and a subject for another thread.

You really need to let go of some of your bitterness

Bottom line is porn is evil and will destroy and change the mind. Do not allow it in your home. Filter the internet with Promise Keepers filtering service, it is awesome and it is cheap, around 5 bucks a month. Work on your intimacy with your husband and create your excitement between the both of you, it is unhealthy to rely on outside sources. Talk to your husband respectfully about it then pray together.

reborn man,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How 'bout this one?
Maybe if more women didn't see a man as a paycheck, and put out more they wouldn't have to worry about cheating?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with that too. Anytime a man or woman views their significant other as a means to avoid the responsibility and work required to justify their existence on this planet, I consider them parasites...The most "efficient" relationships in some people's views (man = breadwinner, woman = domestic servant) *I* view as mutually parasitic and unhealthy. But that's just me...

There are plenty of filtering software packages available that don't send money to oppressive anti-woman groups like Promise Keepers...I support the idea of encouraging men to be more responsible partners, however, they predicate this with the demand that women be submissive.

Sorry, I think men need to be responsible for the sake of being responsible. That is the bare minimum required to sit at the table, the bare minimum required to even enter a relationship...If selling my integrity and agreeing to be some guy's slave is what these guys expect in return for them being a decent human being, then sorry. NO DEAL...

coplover,

It ain't bitterness....it is reality. I'd give you the same advice I gave the initiator of this thread...if you are in a relationship with a lazy sad-sack who uses you as a cash-cow, then chuck her too. My current BF used to be married to a woman who just HATED working and didn't have sex with him for over a year...after 12 yrs of marriage, she dumped him for a doctor who would provide the lifestyle she wanted. Funny, her new H is a total A-hole who is mean to her kids (my BF's kids), but that's ok. She doesn't have to hold a job. I bet he never gets any either. I have nothing nice to say about women like that.

Grad., are you for rebuilding marriages?

In general? Sure. Do I think all marriages should be saved? Nope.

Hi Shandy...

I'm happy to offer my opinion about this, I'm a guy so perhaps my opinion would be valuable for you.

First off, to understand the average man's facination with pornography, it is essential to understand how he first used it. When a man is going through puberty, pornography provides (in my mind) an essential - though admittedly false - method of learning about sex in general.

By looking at pornography, the young male has an opportunity to understand what the female body looks like, to develop a sexual preference and create objects of fantasy - all important aspects of growing and learning about oneself.

Since pornography is by defination unrealistic and itself a fantasy, a man that is unguided in this learning experience can foster unrealistic expectations from real life partners - but a properly guided young man can use the experience to grow in a healthy manner. New experiences in life will help the man seperate fact from reality and he will eventually have a healthy sexual identity.

Admittedly, it would be better to have the father of the man actually sit down and discuss these matters with his son, but for many young men this isn't an option. At the very least it does provide information that prevents embarrassing "What the hell is that?" comments later on in life.

So, how does this apply to the grown adult male?

It has been my personal observation that men (and women too, but this isn't the point of this post) are nothing more than boys with responsibility. If a boy had interest in cars, the man that boy becomes has an interest in cars. I had an interest in taking thinks apart and fixing them - this personality trait had to be accepted by my wife when she first encountered it - at least until I proved that I could actually fix things instead of just breaking them.

Thus a boy who was interested in pornography, ends up as a man interested in it. There are many different reasons for this though.

A man has no more of a complete understanding about the world and himself than a boy, he is just more confident in what he does know. Therefore, a man who watches porn from a research background (ie. "boy, I wonder what [obscure sexual activity] is about - let's see...") is simply satisifying his natural curosity in a manner that doesn't cause his wife physical discomfort.

I will refrain from offering a personal anticdote for this.

Considering the need that a couple has for both fidelity and sexual excitement - a desire to watch porn for this reason should be appauded and experienced mutually.

"Hey honey, you've gotta see this! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />"

Of course there are other reasons that a man might look at porn that aren't so easy to understand. One is simply to acheive arousal. Simply put, pornography is to some men as romance novels are to some women.

Men know that women love the trashy sex scenes in romance novels. I learned at a young age that if you lay a paperback romance novel on it's spine and let it open naturally, it will open to the sex scene - indicating a well read passage. (Imagine my horror when this trick worked at my grandmothers house <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />.) If some women like to fantasize with romance novels, it should come as no surprise that some men do it with porn. Again, if it is done without addiction and it introduces their spouses to new techniques that they enjoy, it is a healthy (albiet a bit gross) pastime. Especially if you (the wife) are on a business trip, and assuming - you know - that the kids aren't home wondering why daddy won't open his office door. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Finally, the bad reason that men look at porn. Ok, there are a number of bad reasons that men look at porn - but we are assuming that it's your spouse and your spouse isn't a wife-beating woman hater who watches porn to stop from raping and killing prostitutes. (I watch too much CourtTV - serial killers are a weird lot.) Also assuming that he isn't simply addicted to it.

That reason, is because you aren't meeting his sexual needs. He doesn't want to bother you with his request (over, and over, and over again) so he satisifies himself alone. Eventually he might learn that it isn't the orgasm that he wants, it the emotional need to be with you sexually that an orgasm in front of a computer screen or VCR isn't going to fix. But that self awareness takes a long time to develop and you'll likely notice this as a general depression long before he'll know the reason he's depressed.

So mow that you know my feelings about it - it's important to do the next step. Ask him! Asking other people how your husband feels is like me going to my best male friend and asking him why my wife doesn't like - I don't know, let say golf. He may have a surprisingly wise answer, but even still, it pales in comparison to the direct source.

If he watches to research things you might like, watch a few with him. There are movies made for women that might actually teach you a thing or two, and you might enjoy learning a few things with him. If he does it to arouse himself, well hell I don't know, make a movie with him or something. If his needs aren't being met, look at the section on this site about that. It's important to many guys reguardless or whether you understand why or not.

Finally, realize that everything I just wrote is totally full of crap. So you should save yourself from people who know nothing (like me) and just ask him directly. I would recommend that the discussion not happen over Thanksgiving dinner.

Hope any of that helped...

TheGraduate - spoken like a true nonbeliever who has NO CLUE what biblical submission is like or what it means for either husband or wife. I pity you and any man that may come your way, and anyone who wants to put much stock in your opinions regarding marriage that result from your warped "graduate" degree in marital vows, commitment, and love.

Just MY humble opinion.

shandy - pornography and its use is very common. The primary "reason" is that sex, and the "sex drive" in men is testosterone driven and usually MUCH higher than it is in women. Add to that the FACT that men are VERY visual with respect to sex and "what turns them on" and you begin to understand why Victoria's Secret, "Gentlemen's Clubs," and provocative movies (including softcore and hardcore porn) thrive. They appeal to the innate "high sex drive" and visualization (fantasy appeal) of men.

Things like Chippendales and Playgirl will also let you know that it's not "unknown" among women either.

The "bottom line,".......What "may" be acceptable or tolerable for single man is no longer true for a man who has CHOSEN to "put aside" his "single rights" in exhange for "exclusivity" with you. Here is the REAL bottom line on pornography, adultery, etc..... "Forsaking ALL others and keeping myself only unto you."

That's a commitment and promise that a man makes to a woman, to himself, and to God when he chooses to get married "until death do us part." It has NOTHING to do, from that point forward, with the old lie, "if it feels good, do it." It is a willing submission of "me, me, me" first to YOUR needs, and vice versa.

If your husband is deeply into porn, then he needs professional counseling because it is just as destructive as a physical affair with another woman.

God bless.

Shandy, my answer as a recovered sex addict is that yes it is common for some men to view pornography in a relationship or marriage, but longterm it can be destructive to the relationship.

As far as talking to him, be firm with your facts and state them clearly what you know him to be doing, but do NOT be critical while stating the facts. (NO EMOTIONS) Then explain how this behavior hurts you, but try not to focus to much on him, but the behavior. It is the behavior that is the problem. Explain you are there to help, love, support, but you cannot tolerate something that demeans you and makes you feel uncomfortable. Remember, you cannot control his behavior, so don't tell him what he can and cannot do, but instead tell him something like if you cannot stop the use of the pornography then I am going to seek out counseling to see how I need to deal with the issue. Because then you are controlling your actions not his.

I hope that all helps, and God bless.
Art

I think the simply answer to your question "how common it is for men to look at porn while there married or involved in a relationship?" - Very Common

The statistics show the facts, porn is making billions and billions everyday.

Most porn is simply giving men an unrealistic fantasy world of sex. It simply degrades and disrespects women.

There is absolutely no need for it. If your husband wants to have entertainment or material on sex. Then is should be educational to you both, and porn is not.

You should simply approach it honestly, try to be non judgmental and don't be hysterical.

Try and ask questions that will tell you what he wants out of porn. If he is still watching and hiding, find the tape and put it on for him and watch it beside him. This should make him feel ashamed, if it does then you know at least he has some moral sense that this is not right. If he likes it and doesn't care then he is simply showing disrespect to you and this will certaintly lead to disaster.

Good luck.

If you do have any insight to share with me I would be like to read it. As a man I question why so many men find this material acceptable.

I sometimes wonder whether part of the allure towards porn is resentment towards women. A lot of men resent the power women seem to posess with regards to their control of sex. Maybe their porn viewing is more of a adolescent type of rebellion against those who they view in a position of power [women]. It's really sad because if instead of wasting away time with porn, and feeling sorry for themselves, they should be trying to learn about women [instead of relying on equally ignorant male friends] and what the common denominators are that attract women to want sex. And secretly partaking in an activity that causes many a women to suffer is definitely NOT a way to want them to have sex.

TMCM

You know that is an interesting thought - it really makes sense to me. It sounds like something my H would do - consistent with his passive aggressive way of "communicating" his needs in general. Maybe that's why I reacted so strongly to it too.

Grad,

I agree 100% with what you said--men and women both need to take responsibility for their own actions or lack thereof and not blame everyone else for their choices. Who cares what everyone else is doing-

The real problem here is lack of open and honest communication within the marriage. And very possible an immature understanding of dealing with problems.

Marriage requires work, it requires both husband and wife respecting each other enough to be honest and open about everything, even if they know what they say MIGHT hurt the other persons feelings, but knowing they are adult enough to handle their own feelings without lashing out in their hurt.

And the problem with that is--most people DON'T know how to handle their own hurts, so they lash out, getting angry and upset, even though their spouses did not mean to hurt them (it wasn't an intentional hurt) it was one done out of love and respect to bring growth and depth to the marriage.

Foreverhers,

I don't why your blasting TheGraduate here, your saying the exact same thing she is--with the exception your making excuses for men (even single men) who turn to porn, she is not. And she happens to be RIGHT, if women held men to a higher standard (and YES even as CHRISTIAN Women, more so of Christian women, it should be expected to hold men to a higher standard) and let them know this is unacceptable behavior in their relationship--and drop kick those men to the curb men would begin to understand just how damaging porn is to a relationship and to their OWN Spiritual growth.

If you don't think it's a wife's responsibility to hold her husband accountable--your mistaken. Do you honestly think Matthew 18:15-17 *excludes* marriage relationships????

First you go to your spouse alone and discuss the problem, if that doesn't help, then you bring in outside help.

That sure sounds like it would include marriage and dating relationships--especially when you love and care about them.

So do not blast The Graduate, in her understanding of what is required of boundaries in a relationship. I think she has a pretty good grasp of what a Christian marriage should be like. (even though she may not be a Christian)

ThornRose,

The problem is that 'The Graduate' after 2 failed marriages no longer beleives in the institution, has acknowledged her rejection of MB, and is well known for her misandrist comments. Like many feminists, she places all the blame on men and none on women.

TMCM

Actually, I have seen her blast just as many women as she has men over the years for their bad behaviors.

I don't think she hates marriage, nor do I beleive she hates men. I do however believe she hates when people hold their past mistakes over them, when they themselves have made similiar mistakes and refuse to acknowledge them.

She, from my understanding of reading MANY of her posts over the years, prefers when people hold themselves accountable for their own choices, and to the *same* standard by which they judge others.

Granted she may not be a Christian, but she holds to many beliefs that are taught in the Bible.

And just because she rejects many of the MB principles, as they did not work in her previous marriage, for whatever reason, doesn't mean she hates men or marriage.

I'm curious, did you even READ her previous posts on this thread??? Or is your view of her tainted by your past experiences?? If you *REALLY* read what she wrote you would see that YOU are wrong, in assumptions.

But I'm curious how is it 'feminist' to expect men to be accountable for their own actions?

How is is "feminist" to expect men to practice the use of 'self-control' even when it comes to their sexual behaviors???

I don't think that is a feminist stance, I do however, beleive it is a BIBLICAL Stance. As self-control is just ONE of the fruits of the Spirit.

By Grad
It doesn't matter what others here think, or if porn is considered "normal" for men. The only thing that matters is how you feel about it.


By OHCopLover after bashing Grad
It doesn't matter what we think, it matters what you think and feel. The Graduate is right, most men will take a real woman who treats them with respect, love, and meets thier need, over porn, any day.

And by TMCM after saying exactly what Grad said.
TMCM
The problem is that 'The Graduate' after 2 failed marriages no longer beleives in the institution, has acknowledged her rejection of MB, and is well known for her misandrist comments. Like many feminists, she places all the blame on men and none on women.

By ForeverHers
TheGraduate - spoken like a true nonbeliever who has NO CLUE what biblical submission is like or what it means for either husband or wife.

And what does believing and submission have to do with porn?! What does Grad's marital record have to do with her offering a VERY MB opinion?

Perhaps some see the poster's name and make assumptions about her attitude and what's contained within the posts.

By OHCopLover
I always love your tone Graduate, so emphatheic. Well, maybe if we'd have REAL women who treated us like men... I suppose one could phrase it that way too no?

I think she was saying NOTHING about REAL men, though I'm seeing far fewer of them on the boards these days (and that comment doesn't necessarily apply to this thread). This was TOTALLY about porn, the comment about REAL women.

TMCM,

Please read this thread. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

I think you made an important point on this thread that pertains to that one. It starts innocently enough, but it turns rather quickly. It got ugly, but I sure wouldn't mind a MAN standing up for men's right to be responsible. Or, even if you were to just give me a man's perspective on it, that maybe is more objective than what happened here.

Thanks,

~ZP

Hmm, she's posting in support of MB principles on this thread. Her marital history is not relevant to her ability to post in support of MB principles.


Ah yes, the age-old "I don't like what you say, therefore you must hate me and anyone with the same genitalia as me" argument. Graduate has torqued off quite a few women on this board too, but they don't claim that she has some kind of *gasp* hatred of women.


This is easily proved false by reading just what Graduate has posted on this thread.

Now, back to the orginal posters question....

I am wondering how common it is for men to look at porn while there married or involved in a relationship? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Shandy, Unfortunately it is all too common, and because society in general tells people--this is what MEN DO, it's an even bigger problem than most people care to acknowledge,
because lo and behold if you stand against such things your a PRUDE, or Your trying to deny their 'right'; or gasp "your a Religous right fundamentalist wacko (which I think is rather comical knowing how many men and women who are NOT Christians that speak out against Porn) and the damage it does to relationships.

I personally do not know who men think gave them the 'right' or why they even think it's a 'right' to view women as objects for their sexual pleasure. They can't say it's a God given right, as per the Bible, God expects men to treat women with respect and to practice self-control in that area, and considers lusting after someone other than their spouse to be equal to adultry.

So even though yes, it is common, doesn't make it 'right'. (to me, it just shows how many folks have a lack of self control)and would cause me to wonder what other areas they lack self-control.

Also, how does the women approach the subject to him if he hides this?

You approach it openly and honestly. About how you feel about his viewing porn. Honestly, it doesn't matter WHY he views porn, just that you have a problem with it in the confines of a relationship with You.

This is a boundaries issue, and the same thing as if a spouse/dating partner was involved in an affair, a problem drinker, a drug abuser, or even a smoker.

If you choose not to be in a relationship with someone who cheats, drinks, does drugs, smokes, or even looks at porn that is ultimately YOUR CHOICE. They can not force you to accept their behavior any more than you can force them to change their behavior.

So the question becomes if this is not what you want in your relationship, and he chooses to do this, do YOU want to stay in this relationship?

Which is why I say talk openly and honestly about this issue. So that you have all the information needed to make an informed decision about this relationship and if it should continue, and even if you want it to continue.

A word of caution, if he ignores your feelings about this subject matter now, he will eventually ignore your feelings about other issues as well. Blanket statement, yes it is.

If this issue is THAT important to you, then he should respect your opinions and feelings on this, just as you should respect his, and if his porn use is THAT important to him, and you have a problem with it, then end the relationship based on respect for both of you. Respecting your boundaries of not having it in your life, and his boundaries for having it in his. That is really the most loving choice a person could make.

While this may be anecdotal and cannot be regarded as gospel, I've talked to quite a few of my fellow married men friends regarding porn viewing and I've gotten a common response from those who view their present sex lives with their wives as good but used to view porn in the past. These men have told me that when they used to view porn they often found themselves very resentful of women in general. Like alcohol abuse, it felt great while they were engaging in it but afterwards came the big emotional letdown that things were still the same if not worse. It wasn't until they experienced the big epiphany that porn viewing [like alcohol abuse] was destroying them emotionally and spiritually. They also realized that, unlike their wives, they could not simply walk away from it because it was a part of them and would follow them no matter what happened to their marriages.

It's hard for women to understand porn viewing's seduction of men because women don't have to deal with their bodies producing 10 times the amount of testosterone [the libido hormone] that our male bodies produce and because their sexual stimulation is not visually based like ours. This in no way, shape or form excuses men from viewing porn but should be taken into account before engaging in a futile attempt to beat men over the heads with it. Remember that neither the theocracies or secular governments of the world have been able to end it with their repressive or liberal policies. A much better approach towards ending porn viewing is if the message was put out to young men [especially pre-pubescent boys] that just like with alcohol and drugs, the first victims of porn are not women but the men who view it. Some men will accept the message and many won't but those men who make the committment to end their porn viewing will be the healthy seeds that will spread the message of enlightened self interest to other men.

I hope this old guy's lunatic rant of mine helped [as I take my Geritol and settle back into my Lazy-Boy rocking chair <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />]

TMCM

TMCM,

I agree 100% though I don't believe its just their hormones, it's also the images that get burned into their minds that continue to draw them back to the porn.

And it does harm them, and they begin to resent women for not keeping their figures looking like that, or not performing sexually the way these porn stars (on drugs) do.

And many of these porn stars have had numerous abortions as opposed to having children, and so when women DO actually have children and their bodies change, men get upset.

I think porn gives men a false sense of what women are really like.

Thorned Rose - I don't know what your problem is and I really don't care. It's very obvious from what you wrote that you don't understand much about what true biblical "submission" is all about, or something in your personal life is coloring your reading and your responses.

The Graduate "blasts" men, particularly Christian men, by accusing them of justifying Porn usages while the "little lady" is just "supposed to be submissive" to whatever they want.

That is NOT what biblical submission is like or what it's all about.

I'm sorry that you have such a weak grasp on biblical perspectives, but "dating" and "marriage" ARE two vastly different things. Here's the biblical perspective for sex: NO SEX (no porn, no premarital sex, etc.) with anyone prior to marriage or with anyone other than your spouse after marriage. Sex is reserved for marriage. Period.

Can, and do, humans break that command of God? You bet they do...all the time, especially the hormonally driven males. But that does NOT make it right. A significant number of women have premarital sex and commit adultery after marriage for the same "reason," they CHOOSE to obey their own wants, desires, and lusts instead of humbly obeying God.

Do people have problems of all kinds within a marriage? You bet. And the majority of those problems can be traced back to two primary problems. 1)Selfishness. Putting "self" and "feelings and desires" ahead of spouse or anyone else. 2)Pride. Lack of submsission to God's will and putting one's self-pride at the top of the "behavior chain."

So I hope it made you feel better to castigate me for stating the truth. I do hope you'll find the answers to what is bugging you and preventing you from simply surrendering to God and advocating something as simple and right as "Obey God, not your own feelings."

Nowhere did I say that Porn was "okay" for men and not "okay" for women.

You want to "drop kick" men to the curb? Be my guest. You DO NOT have to have anyone in your life that you don't want in your life. It is YOUR RIGHT to associate or not associate. It is YOUR RIGHT to establish your own Boundaries, whatever you choose for those Boundaries and the subsequent Consequences that would trigger if someone violated your "space" (Boundary). You want to get at helping them to overcome an addiction to porn and understand some of the reasons why porn is so "attractive" to so many men, then the "drop kicking" will enforce YOUR boundary but will do nothing to help the men choose to not use porn. They will simply see you as "frigid" and "controlling" and 'move on' to someone not as "uptight" as you. They will rationalize their destructive behavior because such rationalizations are what ALL humans are good at in order to justify sin in their lives.

What IS "bugging you" in your life, Thorned Rose? Is there something that we might be able to talk about or help you with?

God bless.

Oh no doubt about that but don't dismiss the hormone levels so readily for it has been shown through studies that testosterone is THE libido hormone not just in men but in women as well. Many women's lost libido has been resurrected through small doses of testosterone.

Secondly, remember that most men become acquainted with the experience of orgasm long before women do. Boys start having 'wet dreams' at the onset of puberty and become 'hooked' on orgasms through the practice of masturbation. Also unlike most women who normally require the establishment an emotional connection before they can achieve orgasm, most men can readily have one simply via images [even non-porn images] of attractive women. This gender difference makes men more susceptible than women to the visual seduction of porn.


And THAT is the insidiousness of porn for it ultimately divides men and women further than they already are. It makes men search for orgasm ,through sexual intercourse, become 'the holy grail' without the wisdom of learning to love their women FIRST.

On a much more personal note. I loved my mother very much and of all of the wise words she gave me, the following have stayed with me since the first time she said them decades ago:


Those words became permanently etched in my mind and prevented me from taking advantage of any girl who might have had strong in-love feelings for me. When I told my mother this, she was pleased and said that those words were not for the sole benefit of the girl I liked but to benefit me as well. I asked her how woud it benefit me, and she said that if I took advantage of any young woman for my own selfish desires, the harm is not just to her but to me as well. In other words, she said, "Before you can harm another human being, you must firm harm yourself", the victimizer has to victimize himself first.

Who knows, but if more porn viewing men would start seeing the faces of their mothers, sisters or daughters on the faces of those porn actresses, they just might see the harm they are doing not only to them but to themselves as well. After all, it's very hard to hurt another human beign when you see the face of a loved one on that other person's face staring back at you, isn't it?

TMCM

Shandy,

In after divorce and dating there is a thread going on about the same topic check it out. Please. I am dealing with the same exact thing you are right now.

Foreverhers,

I actually have no problem understanding Biblical Submission, and Thegraduate wasn't saying that women should be submissive and just accept that their husbands view porn.

She is actually saying they need to set boundaries with these men. And yes, dropping kicking them to the curb ending the relationship (when your dating or engaged to them) if you find they are addicted to porn is the answer. And even within a Christian marriage you set boundaries, but these SHOULD have been set and known BEFORE the marriage took place.

It has nothing to do with being frigid and if that is how they choose to view me, then apparently they didn't know me well enough to be engaged to me to begin with.

And The Graduate calls them like she see's them in her own experience, and there are MANY Christian men who do justify their porn usage that the 'little woman' is supposed to be submissive and not say anything. (I've personally known many of them)

And I know that is NOT what Biblical submission is about, it is about being submitted first and foremost to God, who gives the ability to set healthy Boundaries to begin with.

And I actually have an awesome husband who knew my stance on porn before we married, and who threw all of his in thrash way before ever married.

But, yes, I will still stand by what I said, Christian women need to drop kick these men to the curb who are *addicted* to porn before they even marry them, and they need to let them know WHY they are ending the relationship. And if the man feels the porn isn't as important as his relationship HE will address the issue and seek help.

I agree. If more women did this and explained why maybe more men would seek out help. There are way too many men getting married who are addicted to porn that need help. Maybe instead of kicking them to the curb, how about enrolling them in a sexual addiction recovery program instead. I could have used one before I got married. Sure would have saved me and my wife a lot of grief. Thank the Lord I'm free of it now.

Art would you email me some time. I'd like to find what steps/procedures worked well for you in recovery? I've abstained but it's difficult. The pull, or allure, comes and goes. Part of it is because I'm alone, divorced..she is dating...I don't want to for some time.

Even if we do not reconcile I want to have this item in my life fixed. [email]kclongshot99@yahoo.com.[/email] Thanks

-- Maybe instead of kicking them to the curb, how about enrolling them in a sexual addiction recovery program instead. I could have used one before I got married. Sure would have saved me and my wife a lot of grief.

Looking back had your *girlfriend* even tried to 'enroll' you into a recovery program how would YOU have responded??

Most men would have told their GIRLFRIEND to take a walk.

Did you even realize YOU had a problem with Porn back then?
Of course not, it wasn't a problem for you until it began effecting your marriage and your wife made it your problem
and you began to feel the effects of it on your relationship.

I mean much like the drunk, they are the last ones to acknowledge they have a problem, why? Because it isn't a PROBLEM for them, even though everyone around them has a problem with it. They don't see the need to get help.

When your already married you can seperate until the person gets help.

KC I'll try to get a note out to you this weekend.

And ThornedRose is right, it takes some toughlove to get a sex addict to realize they have a problem. Or realize you are totally out of control and cannot seem to stop the rollercoaster.

Did I know I had a problem back then, no, because all men are tricked into believing porn is just a part of being a man.

It's normal <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />, it like your romance novels with really good pictures.

Personally, I've never liked romance novels. Can't get past the first chapter so I put them down. Give me something that's going to challenge my brain trying to figure out who killed who and why, or challenging and encouraging my own faith and walk with the Lord and I'm hooked.

Art,

Much like young girls and boys are tricked into believing the lie of "Love" is about having sex, "If you really loved me, you'd have sex with me."

And just as many young girls and boys are sucked into the lies of looking a certain way, weighing a certain amount, wearing certain clothes, being in the right career, making a certain amount of money, living in the right neighborhood.

There are many lies people believe will make them happy, but even when they attain all of those things, they find they still aren't happy so they keep looking at other lies trying to find their happiness.

So true. Those little lies from the apple are still being whispered in peoples ear.

Looking at porn is common enough among men as well as women to be considered normal in the sense of "not indicating unusual problems", whether or not one approves of porn ethically.

"Hiding" porn use implies deception, and deception is always a problem within intimate relationships.

A partner engaging in behavior about which you are morally ambivalent, and using deception to hide it from you, is a problem.

However, the MB principles, which I thoroughly support, emphasise that disrespectful demands, judgemental comments, angry outbursts etc. will be counterproductive. This is true whether or not posters on message boards share in your condemnation of your spouse's behavior.

It is important to recognise that there are many men and women who do not consider looking at porn to be intrinsically wrong or adulturous. It is important that you show respect for your spouse's perspective on this issue even as you negotiate your way towards a mutually acceptable plan- even if you consider his perspective to be flat-out wrong. Respecting only opinions with which you agree is worthless.

At the same time, the issue should be raised if it is one that bothers you.

I feel strongly that the diagnosis of sexual addiction should not be made without full assessment by a professional. Sexual addiction is currently a loose concept that can be associated with depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, deep-seated personality problems- or it can be a free-standing problem. Some more information:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Criteria for Addictive Disorder (from here

A. Recurrent failure to resist impulses to engage in a specified behavior.

B. Increasing sense of tension immediately prior to initiating the behavior.

C. Pleasure or relief at the time of engaging in the behavior.

D. At least five of the following:
1. Frequent preoccupation with the behavior or with activity that is preparatory to the behavior.
2.Frequent engaging in the behavior to a greater extent or over a longer period than intended.
3. Repeated efforts to reduce, control, or stop the behavior.
4. A great deal to time spent in activities necessary for the behavior, engaging in the behavior, or recovering from its effects.
5. Frequent engaging in the behavior when expected to fulfill occupational, academic, domestic or social obligations.
6. Important social, occupational, or recreational activities given up or reduced because of the behavior.
7. Continuation of the behavior despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent social, financial, psychological, or physical problem that is caused or exacerbated by the behavior.
8. Tolerance: need to increase the intensity or frequency of the behavior in order to achieve the desired effect, or diminished effect with continued behavior of the same intensity.
9. Restlessness or irritability if unable to engage in the behavior.

E. Some symptoms of the disturbance have persisted for at least one month, or have occurred repeatedly over a longer period of time.
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As you see, it is possible for someone to have problematic patterns of use, or even to be deceptive about their use, without meeting standard criteria for sexual addiction. It's probably not appropriate at this point to assume that a full sexual addiction is in place. That doesn't matter, though, in the sense that if it bothers you, it should still be addressed. Don't feel that you need a "diagnosis" to justify your discomfort.

There's been a lot of back-and-forth here as to whether or not porn use is harmful. I will say that many people have definitely been harmed by inappropriate, unhealthy porn use. At the same time, though, there are many users of porn, both men and women, who don't seem to evidence any guilt, emotional damage, or relationship problems at all as a result of its use. That should not matter to those who reject porn for religious reasons, any more than articles on the risk-to-benefit ratio of a pork-filled diet should matter to Muslims who don't eat it.

Porn is like any entertainment modality from television or videogames in the sense that whether or not one feels it to be intrinsically wrong, there can be no doubt that compulsive behavior and deception are problematic. Judging reality on the basis of entertainment media is always problematic too- these things are not specific to porn. Entertainment media simply often does not constitute a good way for youngsters or adults to learn about real people.

I guess in conclusion I'd just want to emphasise the points that I started with
- that you really should resist the temptation to approach this in a judgemental way
- that you don't need any diagnosis or anyone else agreeing with you in order for your discomfort to be important
- that you should raise the issue with your husband in a non-lovebusting way.

cheers, and good luck! Let us know how it's going...

adrian.

Looking at porn is not a bad thing. Men are visual and most find porn stimulating.

OTOH hiding it, or becoming addicted to it is bad.

There are alos different levels of porn.

Some levels such as Child porn are bad, always.

well I will be straight up. I view internet porn on nights my wife isn't home. To tell you the truth I would have no reason to look at internet porn if I was sexually satisfied. I never used to look at porn because I was more then sexually satisfied. My wife hasn't made love to me since our wedding night 9 months ago. Previous to that it was once every 3 or 4 or 5 months. I'm a 25 year old man and my wife is 26. Being a 25 year old man I HAVE DESIRES, NEEDS AND FANTISIES that know only my imagination and right hand can fulfill. Watching porn and fantisizing about women I see in porn is the only way I can keep myself from going out and having an affair. It hard as hell sometimes too. I have and still do have many women that I work with or see at the coffee shop or sandwich shop that are very flirty and forward about there intentions. I love my wife with all my heart and I know she loves me too some extent I guess but she for what ever reason will not let me kiss her, hug her, make love to her. She is always too busy to take 5 seconds to let me hold her and tell her that "baby I love you" So I watch porn sometimes and do what I need to do. I'm not ashamed of it, I'm not sorry for doing it and I'm not affaid to admit it (But she already knows) I think It's healthier and much more respectful to watch this stuff and try and satisfy yourself then to go out and find someone to do it for you.

OK, but why not work to correct teh real problem? Which is why the need for SF in your relationship isn't getting met? To be frank, it's hard to imagine that SF is the *only* thing that's not working.

'To tell you the truth I would have no reason to look at internet porn if I was sexually satisfied.'

Or is the real truth

I would have no reason to be sexually dissatisfied if I didnt look at porn?????????

THINK ABOUT IT

Geazy that is crazy stuff. I would never have married a woman who only gave me SF once every 3 months LOL
No matter how great she was in other areas. Heck, once every other day is a huge compromise for me. Not even sure I can do that. Not sure if I want to. I ejaculate every day, whethr my wife satisfies me or not. It is just my thing. I feel, act, and am emotionally healthier if I do.
I woudl much prefer she gave me SF every day. But yes, the nights my wife doesn't want to satisfy my SF EN I will look at porn to get aroused without her. She is more than welcome to join in of course.

SF must definately not be a priority to you like it is me.

But anyhow. Read the concepts here, approach her and ask her why she is not giving you what you need. Work on the LB's. Find out what her EN's are. And make sure she knows what your LB's and EN's are. There is also a section in the articles about women with no libido towards their husband. I'd read it and have her read it.

sorry if i sounded some what hostile. But the way women act like porn is killing marrages around the world is ludacris. I'm currently working with my wife about our own problems. Without knowing our whole story and all that we have been through is hard for you to understand why I love her some much and why I can't just leave her because of our sex life. Its been tough but were working on it. Her mother just died 6 months ago at 41 years of age from a massive heart attack. Her sister has been being abused while her mom as been sick and her step dad is a real piece of work. She is coming around and we are back to connecting emotionally right now so i'm not going to push sex.

I hear you Tibolt. Yes I need to ejaculate at least everyother day and my wife and I have watched porn together many times in the past but lately I just don't think that with her state of mind sex isn't real important to her right now. the more I think about it and the more I read about different things on this board I'm creating love busters. I'm not fulfilling her emotional needs when it comes to communication. I have no problem telling her whats wrong with me as she can't emphisize to me what is wrong with her but everyday complaints and ripes about her work and people around her have become irritable to me and I think i'm pushing her away with short [censored] answers. Back to my other point is I realize the point in our lives when the sex changed. She found out her mother was sick, her sister was being verbally abused and naglected by her father and her grandfather who raised her like a father (her father abandonded her when she was 2) was diagnosed with emphazima(sorry my spelling is very weak) We then got married and bought a house. her job transfered her to a new place and all of these things are on her mind.

She is now becoming more comfortable with her new life and our communication is getting stronger and deeper by the day. I'm going to continue on the same route I have been and hope that our intimacy comes back. what do you guy and gals think.

I spent 18 months attending weekly meetings of S-Anon. Most of the other attendees there had family members who were damaging their relationships with porn or affairs. A 50/50 split. For me, it would be a deal breaker. Flat out unacceptable behavior.

How about this case. There was originally no porn in our marriage. After a few years, my wife suggested porn to try to spice up our marriage (X-rated drive-in, videos, etc). Several years later she decides porn is no longer OK. I still have some around and she gets upset about it.

I threw it all away about 8 years ago (with a few minor set backs). But she still doesn't trust me whenever I am on the computer by myself. She thinks I am looking for porn. This is now a major love buster for her even though I have given it up years ago!!

Why can't she trust me any more??

Sandy,
I've given up porn because I saw how much it hurt my wife. Women just can't seem to grasp that porn isn't (at least for me it isn't) a threat to my view of her. It's hard to explain but my mind (and the male mind if I can generalize) is very compartmentalized. It can enjoy porn in one area of the brain and enjoy the wholesome attraction and love for a wife and the two never ever mix. I've never once looked at porn and said "I wish my wife looked like that". I've never once looked at porn and wished I were having sex with the girl. I can think the girl's attractive or what I'm seeing is hot but honestly, I think of girls in porns as "dirty" and "unattractive as a person". Contrast that with how I see my wife which is that I respect her and think she is wholesome and that there is only one girl in the world that is my wife and that and in itself makes her extremely special and irreplacable. So that's the reality of guys that view porn within a healthy limit. I wish more women could accept this about guys but they can't seem to understand. So the "safe", right thing to do is for the guy to swear off porn. That's what I had to do.

I have just the opposite problem. My wife likes watching porn and wants sex everyday, sometimes more than once. Scary thing is she is still a few years away from her sexual peak. It's hard being 42 and having to perform like you're 24. Wears me out. I can draw the entire alphabet backwards with my tongue in my sleep.

Reasons:

Mainly boardom. Sometimes you check your email, bank account, everything else you can think of on the internet and there's nothing else and you get tempted to just view it as "something fun".

Sometimes it's a fantacy type thing - but one that I personally would never want to do because it would hurt our relationship... like 3 somes or seeing a girl with lots of guys.

It creates an "edgy" environment. My wife and I have watched videos together before and maybe the plot is a bit "nauty" like a girl hitchiker gets with a guy that gives her a ride. It can be very intense and we in turn have really intense sex. Once again, separation of fantacy and reality exists. Half of the stuff that turns us on in the porn we would think was unethical in real life.

Nakedness is fun. I used to go over to a buddy's house and we'd be talking and he'd flip on the porn channel. Even I felt a bit uncomfortable at first with porn going on in the background. But eventually I liked how "casual" naked bodies in the background were. I imagine that's part of the attraction for guys that meet up at a strip club to talk about business. Looking at a girl naked is fun but there's another layer of dark excitement about talking casually and naked girls walk all around you as-if it's normal.

Geazy, I worry about you. A few people have worried that I may have an addition to sex. I'm sitting on the fence now if I do or not. I feel a STRONG drive to get off every day or every other day. But I don't fear that I'm going to cheat on my wife. And I don't need porn to fufilly fantacies. Every guy is different but be careful or you will find youself on a slippery slope.

Sad problems I've heard of...
1. Guys that eventually need porn to get arroused at all. Where the guy needs porn to even get hard for his wife.
2. Guys that "need" sex (I'm not talking about masterbation) to the point that if the wife isn't in the mood, he feels the right to cheat.
3. Guys that would preferr porn over sex with their wife.

Just be careful, ok?

I'm new here and would like to add a woman's perspective....

Personally, I've never thought that porn belonged in a committed relationship with a healthy sex life. I have always had a healthy libido...I want to be the one that is turning my man on and getting him off and vice versa. If he wants/needs other women to fill his needs (either real or fantasy)...why wouldn't I be upset.

I also feel the same way about masturbation...it should never be a replacement. I would also be hurt if I wasn't getting satisfied sexually and found that he was beating off in private. My ex even had the view that it was for people who couldn't get any one to have sex with.

But for a lot of husbands their wives have no interest in sex. We have sex once a year, twice in a good year. My wife has said she is happy not having sex again. She won't even talk about this issue.

Would you consider porn and masturbation OK in these types of marriages?

I keep reading stuff like this on this forum and it makes me crazy!

I just don't get it!

I know what is written on this site about love bank withdrawals and sex yada, yada, yada...

But this is NUTS!

SEX is MARRIAGE is SEX is MARRIAGE....ad infinitum

Why in the name of Christmas would any woman or man for that matter think they could be married and NOT HAVE SEX. It is nothing but deceptive, dishonest, misleading, arrogant, "grounds for annulment' behavior.

It is one thing if you are old and the little blue pill doesn't work for you, but going into marriage like that?
GEEZE, LOUISE!

Newlyweds? No sex since your wedding night? Nine months? After nine DAYS you should be demanding to know WHY??????????????????????

After nine days you should be saying. "If I knew you were not gonna put out, I never would have married you." I would have had it embroidered on the bed pillows!

Now nine months later your beating yourself off to porn?
No KIDDING!

Someone ought to change the marriage vows to say "to love, honor, cherish and have sex at least once a week."

I've listened to enough whining on this forum too, "whine, whine, whine, I have a very low libedo." Work those pelvic floor muscles and build up some libedo, you lazy, uncreative whiny excuse for womanhood or go join a nunnery!

I have to agree with you regarding the "sexless marriage." In this case, I would not condone porn/masterbation. It is a healthier release than an affair or hookers. But there also needs to be a resolution...has there been any counseling to work at this issue? I have to admit that this is a case where, due to incompatibility, going their seperate ways may be the answer. Especially in the case of newlyweds...this hasn't been much time to have things go sideways such as, lose of a child or other catastrophe.

When I condone porn/masterbation is when the other partner is more than willing to please. And what I get tired of hearing is that porn is a normal guy thing...I feel it is just an excuse for behaviour.

I honestly feel for those that aren't getting satisfaction in their relationship...there isn't a feeling I enjoy more than to make love and cuddle with the one I love. I crave it!!!

In my current relationship, I'm the one that initiates sex almost 100% of the time. That's why when I found out he viewed porn when I wasn't home, I was deeply hurt. Here is a warm body right next to you that feels she's begging for sex...you see my point don't you?

Yet, in my previous marriage, I was told that sex was expected at least once a day. I asked, what if I'm don't want to. There wasn't a response...the marriage ended because he didn't respect me as a person. In this case, I got to where I didn't ever want sex, but it wasn't the sex that turned me off, it was him.

Hope this helps...and I wish the best to all.

I'm sad to hear about your first marriage not working out. Also sad to hear about how your man is substituting porn for you. That's not right and I understand your hurt.

My wife and I are somewhat in the same situation as your first marriage. I am very hungry for sex and want it 1x a day. She is tired of my non-stop hunger for sex and is growing increasingly turned off. What complicates things drastically is that she has a hang up about masterbation. So I'm honoring that, that increases my sex drive, only to be told she's not all that interested in sex either. You can imagine how nuts and caged in I feel. We are working on it though. Our sex life and good will feelings are improving just a bit. I am trying to fill her love tank with romantic things more now to try and show her that I do love her beyond sex.

That said, in theory, I think masterbation can exist even inside a healthy, sexually satisfied relationship. I think the key is "in addition to" and not "in subsitutute of". Sometimes it's nice to be free of all demands of if you are pleasing your partner and masterbate only focusing on your own pleasure. I also thing it's great for balancing out drive imbalances between couples. If the wife wants it 1x a week and the guy wants it 7x a week, great, the guy can masterbate 6x a week in a way that doesn't bother his wife.

I'm off on a tangent. Just wanted to really make a case for that. My wife isn't cool with masterbation at all and I really wish she was. So if you are a wife that's sitting on the fence of if you are ok with it or not, please please make your husband happy and tell him you're cool with it. You don't like porn? Ok -- the husband needs to relent there. But please be cool with masterbation!

WOW! Can you come and talk with my wife!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry to hear of your dilemma. It is sad to hear of an incompatibility in something that should be one of the deepest connections in a relationship.

The difference between your situation and my 1st marriage is that he didn't respect me, I was his piece. From your comments, you are trying very hard to please your wive and respect her wishes. In fact, when I read your post earlier stating that you were giving up porn for her feelings...I got tears. To me, that would be the ultimate...saying that you are truly forsaking all others for this relationship...WOW.

When I confronted my SO about porn viewing, he told me that "he enjoyed looking at beautiful women" but he wouldn't anymore since it bothers me. But...my problem is that now I catch myself being suspicious. If he truly did, I would be so happy. I want to think that he didn't just say it to appease me.

Personally, if I didn't want to have sex, I wouldn't have a problem with masterbation. In my own experience, my desire for sex is very much determined by the relationship and their approach. The demanding approach of ex was a turn off...it didn't matter what my needs were...do your wifely duty. Currently, I love sex and can't get enough...but SO says that his libido is slow due to age (50). I'm the one that wants to do it almost every day and he would be happy with 1x week.

Women need to feel loved before they can love. I know this isn't easy for you because you need something more immediate...but have you tried to romance her off her feet? Were you two close and intimate before marriage? What did you two do then for romance? Yes, she needs to know that you want her for more than sex, but she also needs to give a little. Maybe a date for sex...lead into with a slow dancing, bubble bath, etc. and a date for no sex could be a walk, go to museum, etc. The main thing is to spend time together.

Has your wive sought any counseling/coaching?

I hope your husband can give up porn for you. It will be very hard for him and he will have some weak moments. But try to trust him if he is trying for you.

I had some weak moments in the last 8 years and now my wife doesn't trust me. She thinks I am hiding porn from her or going on dating web sites. I'm not, but I can't get her to believe me. How do I get her to trust me again? I wish I had never gotten into porn because I now realize how much it hurt our relationship and her trust.

I don't demand sex. I think it is the wife's gift to give to her husband whenever she feels he deserves it. I can try to lead her in that direction, but ultimately it is her decision.

We did have some romance before marriage and in our first few years together. I used to surprise her with candle light dinners, flowers for no reason, tickets to concerts, we would take lots of baths together, I'd shave her legs and shampoo her hair, foot massages, I'd put love notes in her lunch and her car, I'd dress up as 'Tex', camping in the back yard, X-rated drive-ins, slow train rides in a sleeper car, trips to the Poconos, Niagara Falls, Orlando,... God, I miss being close to her.

We never had a great sex life, but we had affection and fun and companionship. Now all of those are gone. I actually miss the affection more than I miss the sex.

But since the kids came, she wants to spend all of her time with the kids and her girl friends. There is no US time, and she rejects any romance. I've asked her to movies and she said if I want to go I can go by myself. I asked her to just sit and talk and she calls me selfish and questions my motives. We won a honeymoon weekend at a local hotel and she had to bring the kids.

I think she just no longer loves me and and can't accept my love. Since the relationship died, so did an chance of intimacy. And I can't get it back if she resists.

Today my wife said she wants to go to a counselor by herself!!!! There still is some hope!!

Trust is a hard thing to get back...you're right, it would have been easier to have not lost it in the first place. You made me think...what would it take for me to trust. It would be time and no weak moments. But if there was one weak moment and I found out about it, I would believe that it had been going on all along. Maybe that's how your wife feels. I have wanted to ask my SO if he still does, but I don't want him to know how paranoid I am. If he doesn't feel trusted, he may not care as much. But it does hurt deeper than I can describe...it is betrayal and cheating. I've been told by others to get over it and it isn't a big deal. If it isn't a big deal, why does it hurt so much. We're all different and I have to go with what makes me feel good or bad to make my own personal decisions.

You have a hard road ahead of you, but if you are commited, you can make a difference. How about you getting coaching? You feel there is a chance if she goes to counseling, maybe she'll feel you are trying if you go. ADVICE...the right coach may not be the first you talk to. There has to be a personality fit. In my 1st marriage, I went to counseler and she was the one that suggested seperation/divorce. It woke me up to how I was living...it was for the best.

How old are the children? The family should do things together but the parents also need time alone. Which is what sounds like you aren't getting. You are right...not much of a honeymoon with children. I had a sister that used her children to keep her husband away...such as the babies sleeping in the bed, etc. Having them around 24/7 isn't healthy.

What if you start off subtly getting back to romance...leave a note under her pillow. Don't make it mushy but tell he you something simple. Send her a simple (single or triple) flowers at home/work. Do little things for her. I put toothpaste on his brush, etc. Do things that are affectionate and see how she responds. Personally experience and I've read lately...to make love to a woman at night, start in the morning. The prolonged anticipation can be as exciting.

Definitely check out the coaching aspect...they are experts and can help you see what you do to contribute and how to help change both of your patterns. I wish you the best of luck.

HeartOnE...I have read some of your other postings and see that you are seeking help and what your wive says and does to you. You truly have your hands full and I give you credit for continuing to try. You are good to use the forum to get feedback and ideas from others...a healthy way to deal.

I read an email today that made me think of you. There is a web site...www.MortFertel.com
On the top left of the home page there is a space to put in your email and receive 7 reports. Today I received number 6...BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE.

He talks about how you can not get someone to change because it is imposed by you. The best thing you can do is make changes yourself and let them see how you are...and to give them the space to make the decision to want change themselves.

I would suggest getting these emailed to you. One can never have too many resources or ideas to help resolve issues. Who knows, maybe this person can help you. Good luck!

My wife has seen a counselor a time or two about trying to become ok with masterbation. Money's tight lately so she hasn't been recently. It's sort of on the back burner (I think).

The last two days our sex life has been great. I'd like to think that it's because we're getting along better and she sees a genuine effort on my part to respect her and show her that I love her.

What I wanted to mention to you is that often things aren't very clean cut and perfect though. Like, with the porn, we went through our phases too where I told her I'd stop looking at porn and still did. There was lots of disfunctional things that went on. There were times where she was soo mad at me that she'd pull up porn on the laptop and "enjoy" it and then turn it off when I wanted to join in. Really messed up stuff. But we've moved beyond that now. I don't view porn to give her peace of mind and she doesn't do a lot of the disfunctional stuff that she used to (which translated to me that she didn't respect me).

So as I was saying, sometimes the problem lies in how we make each-other feel by our actions; not how we really feel towards one another. In a lot of ways it's been an educational process for me-- to make the signals that I'm sending match how my heart feels towards her. I've always loved my wife and respected her. But I did have a period where it was hard to break myself free of porn. I still struggle in a HUGE way to keep to my pormises of no masterbation. When I would fail, it translated to her that I didn't honor her or that she was a piece of meat. I was often accused of not making her feel loved, that sex was the only thing I cared about, that I was a lier, ect ect ect. I love her and didn't want to make her feel anything less than important but they were strong, internal drives and doing it her way felt like I was squashing my freedom and instinct and manhood. It's very complex. But I am doing my very best to see it from her point of view and to honor her.

See what I'm saying? Make room for imperfections and slip ups and stuff so that you don't incorrectly think that your husband doesn't love you because he slips up or behaves less than perfectly at times. Sometimes it takes a while for him to see the light.

I don't mean to jump in on your thread, but what you guys are discussing is exactly what my H and I are going through right now. I need some one to talk to!

Here's my story and I apologize if it gets lengthy:
-26yrs old, married 5, together 10, 1 child-3yrs in January.

About 31/2-4 years ago I found out through my H's admittion that he was watching porn. I was deeply, deeply hurt. I have always been a willing partner, I wasn't one to withhold sex. I felt unattractive and that I wasn't enough for him. It made me feel like there must be something laking in me to make him feel like watching it. He didn't seem to care about how much it hurt me. After alot of crying, begging, and fighting he finally agreed to get rid of it. I asked him not to watch porn videos or go on the internet again for my sake.

Since then he would occasionally say things to make it sound like I was trying to control him and that he "wasn't allowed to watch porn". Unlike you, Rocky, I did ask once in a while if he was hiding any porn. His answer was always no. "I'm not allowed to have any porn"

A few months ago, things were weird between us. He wouldn't talk to me about it, and I was feeling uneasy. I decided to snoop around. He had always left the key to his gun cabinet on top of the cabinet. It wasn't there. I looked around some more and found it. When I opened it I found a small stash of DVD's. Two of them were videos of naked girls. I was devistated, hurt, and extremely angry. I broke them. I know, that was not the right thing to do, but I was running on pure emotion. I left him a note with the broken DVDs, telling him how hurt I was and that I would never trust him again. He bold faced lied to me. He found them a few days later.

After some time and talking, he sort of apologized, but tried to justify himself by saying that it wasn't porn because there was no penetration. I asked that we have COMPLETE honesty from now on. He, all to willingly, agreed.

A few weeks later I accidentally opened one of his credit card bills thinking it was mine. I saw that, several times that month, while we were supposed to be being honest, he was frequenting Hooters. I was still feeling very hurt and insecure by the porn issues. I confronted him about it. He said that he didn't tell me because he knew I would flip out. So I asked if he had been to any strip clubs. His answer was, "While we've been married, none." But evidentally, before we were married he had gone to a few. I was hurt, but not as hurt as I was about the porn. After all, it was before we were married. But my trust in him was shot, so I questioned him about it again the next night. His new answer, "Since we've been married, once". He LIED TO ME AGAIN, straight to my face. I lost it. I started to scream at him, I wanted to die, I wanted him to die. I hated him.

I don't know what to do. I'm so hurt and I totally don't trust him. I've always had low self esteem, but now I have none. Whenever I have tried to talk to him he just gets defensive and tells me to just let it go, it was in the past. But to me the lies are still very much in the present. I wonder what else hes hiding. He feels that I'm dragging it out, but he has done very little to reassure me about his love for and attraction to me. I've given up trying to talk to him because it just makes things worse. I feel like I'm getting to the point of indifference. I ordered "His Needs, Her Needs" today, but I'm not sure its going to do any good since I'm not sure he'll agree to read it.

Please, please, I need someone to talk to and confide in. I need some support.

I'm interested in talking to you. I can only give you the guy's perspective and the perspective of a guy who struggled with porn to a mild extent and still struggles with showing his wife that he loves her dearly but has a RAGING sex drive that often gets in the way.

I will need to tell my wife that I'm communicating with you though and she may decide she doesn't want me talking to a woman about such things. We'll see. But I am interested in hearing your concerns.

PLEASE, be open and honest with her. I wouldn't be so hurt if mt H had been. I'm now in tears, because I wish my H was that honest with me and I'm not sure he ever will. I won't be offended if she doesn't want you talking to me about this.

I don't know your husband but my gutt tells me that he does love you. I imagine he simply doesn't see what the big deal is or worse, he may want to give it up for you but be addicted.

Honestly, for myself, I feel that porn is harmless. I love my wife in a much deeper and wholesome way than the way that I enjoy "cheap" porn. If I thought there was a way to help my wife understand that it doesn't mean she's less than perfect, I would try. But I think that's just the way that women are "wired". That they really focus on their body and are affraid that the man is going to like what he sees on the screen better than them. So at that point I think it's the man's job to say "I can live without porn; it may not be as free of a lifestyle but some cheap thrills at the expense of my wife feeling like dirt isn't worth it"

However, in turn, women must also understand how men are "wired". In the same way that men have a hard time understanding why women get soo insecure and hurt over porn, women have to understand that while they may never be able to really grasp why the male sex drive is soo strong and animalistic, at some point they need to stop trying to convert their man and make him think like a woman. Comments such as "just don't think about it" in regards to being horny is a clear example of women not understanding how strong the drive is. Women need to surrender to the idea that men have very primal sexual needs. What she can and should demand is that he learn to make love and show love to her in addition to his primal needs but to try and take away his primal need is a mistake.

wasp89...thank you for the feedback. I will try to keep this in mind. But I also wish he could understand how it makes me feel...I get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach and get so angry, I want to walk away. In fact, this would be the fastest way for my libido to take a major dive. I have no desire to be with a man that lusts after other women...none. In fact, I'd rather be alone than deal with it.

needtotalk...currently, my SO said that he would stop and I haven't found anything that says contrary, but I'm very paranoid about it. I don't want to say that he gave in too easily but I'm afraid that he appeased me and is sneaking around. If he has stopped, I'd be the happiest woman on earth...he is so great in other aspects of our lives.

I have put much thought into what I will do if he lied and is still viewing. I love him very much and he treats me with respect, more than any man I've ever known. BUT...if he continued, I know that I can't live with it. Truthfully, I would be happier alone than dealing with it. It would eat me alive from the inside...what kind of a life is that.

My initial thoughts on what you wrote are...1) he doesn't respect your feelings, 2) he lied/lies to you, 3) has no intention of stopping and expects you to accept it.

You need to think about what you want!!! What can and can't you live with. Then, seek help in counseling/coaching and let them know your main goal is to be able to make the right decisions for yourself.

I'm not telling you to leave him and I'm not telling you to stay...just don't leave things as they are. Only you know what you want/need!

I hoped this helped...take care of yourself!

I don't think that he is addicted, he claims that he might look at it once a month. But with all the lies and the lackluster sex life, I'm not sure that I believe him. The fact that, not even a month prior to his latest lie, he agreed to be honest, and then lied has done so much more damage than just knowing about the porn and strip club. I don't feel the same about him, and I don't know if I ever will. To me, trust is such an important marital issue, that if it is no longer there, I don't know if I can try anymore. I'm getting tired of trying.

You have to do what you are comfortable with. To me, the lying aspect is the worse. Like you say, you can't help but wonder if he is lying about other things too. I doubt he is but it's natural to feel that way.

I would really ask you to reconsider your thoughts of leaving him though. Worse case would you be able to separate and live somewhere else till he shapes up? I know you are deeply hurt and it turns you off that he's behaving this way but please try to let cool heads prevail and not take it to the level of divorce.

wasp89...I want you to know that I really appreciate this correspondence and your honest feedback. Also, I read what you say and am struggling with it.

If a man should say "I can live without porn"...then why don't they say it and do it? Also, I know that you and other men think it is harmless...if it is, why are we writing about it now? It obviously effects relationships in a negative way.

needtotalk...I hope that I didnt' come on too strong but I feel that most women cave in and/or do whatever makes the least amount of waves. I just want you to find out what you want/need and go from there.

(getting tired of trying) I know. My wife got like that. There was a time where we were both SOOOO worn out. We weren't sleeping soundly at night at all. Neither of us trusted each other. It was awful. But I assure you it can be rebuilt. If there was an affair, that's a different story. I'd be recommending you get the divorce drawn up and send FedEx overnight. But this kind of stuff... please keep trying. Eventually it'll work itself out. Either you won't be soo offended by it or he'll see it's not worth the pain it causes you.

My wife had a real hard time rebuilding the trust. At times she smothered my freedom to the point where I felt I was going crazy. But she slowly has began trusting and her faith is well put because I am no longer viewing porn. There are happy endings that can occurr if only you'll give it time and keep working at it.

What I meant by harmless is that it's harmless in my mind. Not that the pain it causes women is harmless. According to my wife, the pain comes from the fear that I'm going to like the girl on the screen better than her. That I'm going to think of it while we are having sex. That I'm going to wish she were skinnier. Or would do some kind of act that she's not willing to do but that I saw on the screen.

For me personally, all those concerns are pretty much void. The best way I can describe it is that a man's brain is extremely separated. Not to mention, I never viewed porn with an emotional connection to the girl. I never wanted to date the girl. I never wished to have real contact with her. She was a girl inside the TV and that's where she belonged. Actually, I view girls in porns as "dirty". Contrast that with how I view my wife. I view her as wholesome, a companion, my ONE AND ONLY WIFE, a girl who I enjoy watching sleep, a girl who I love memorizing parts of her body, a girl who I'm affraid I will forget how she looks if I were to be away from her for a week or two. I'm deeply in love with her. The world of porn never ever crosses into that wholesome realm of my thoughts.

For many guys, this is the case but women's minds don't work like that and so they imagine that we think the same way and figure we convert fantacies that we've seen on TV into personal fantacies too. But we don't.

Sorry to have disappeared. Thank you all for your comments.

Rocky, I agree that women tend to cave, I watched my mom do that all her life. You didn't come off too strong, and I 100% agree with you on the issue. I don't want to toss out my 10 years with him either. He seems to be sensing my exasperation, and has been trying. I would like to try counseling, but it is so expensive.

Wasp, I understand what your saying as well, but here's the problem, I am willing. If he wanted it every day, then I would gladly do it. I, like your wife, fear that it is the girls in the videos that he thinks about, and that someday I won't fulfill his needs, and he will go elsewhere. I feel like I'm not fulfilling them now. Even with things not so great between us, if he wants some SF then he gets it. Otherwise, I would be pushing him to find alternatives. I have been so obsessed with not physically being attractive that I've lost 20 pounds and I exercise like crazy. At least it is a healthier stress reliever than others I could have chosen. And I am starting to feel better about myself, but I still have bad days.

A stupid thing that I did do, and I'm not sure why, is after I broke the DVDs, I ordered him Playboy. I figured that this way he couldn't lie about having porn. The subscription came with a free DVD. So I replaced what I broke. So now I have created monthly torture. STUPID!! Should I cancel it?

Wow. It's almost commical the disfunction that goes on when one is emotionally distraut. Why in the world did you order him playboy? Are magazines ok with you but not videos? If so, I understand you were compromising in a sense so I appload that but you probably shouldn't have ordered it at all. For now, don't cancel it. You want to be consistant. Giving, taking away, changing your message to him creates instability, confusion, and stress. Cancel it once the year's subscription is up.

My wife struggles with body image too. She often says she doesn't feel attractive. She may have gained just a little bit but that makes absolutely no difference to me. I am in love with her. My mind is much deeper than to lose attraction for her simply because she might have gained just a little. My wife is special. It is my job to let her know that. But in all honesty, it is her that is putting pressure on herself worrying about her body image. At one point in time I was like "your insecurities are your problem; you need to deal with them". But I've since realized it isn't as simple as that. I need to make her feel loved and special. Viewing porn doesn't help her feel that way because she is "wired" to feel threatened by other women. So what I CAN do is stop viewing porn. I really feel like your husband needs to come to that point. Maybe over time you can work on your self esteem and let him look at magazines or watch a video with him but for now, I really think he should give up porn of all kinds.

I have to sign off, my son will be waking up soon. I have had trouble signing on in the past. The account I opened when this was all first happening wouldn't let me in. Boy I could have used this communication back then. I came on today and saw this thread and I had to get on, so I ended up opening a new e-mail address today just so I could sign up again. I hope it lets me sign in again after I log out. If not, I'll sign up another new e-mail again! and again, and again....

I would never have given a subscription...it is counter to everything said and felt. Is this another pattern some of us women fall into? Beat ourselves down...we are't worthy. Maybe you should talk to your husband about it and tell him that you truly want to cancel it now...everytime it shows up the hurt feelings will be brought to the surface...OUCH. This should be a time to repair the damage and heal.

The previous website I posted for HealthOnE is about coaching...their main view is to not deal with the past, but to learn to work on the here and now. It makes sense. I suggest going to the site and signing up for their 7 reports...they are free. I enjoyed reading them because of their perspective.

I believe that if a spouse truly cares and if the issue is posed in a nonthreatening way...they will listen. The 6th report I received yesterday about changing yourself made so much sense to me. We are only in charge of our own destiny.

I know that counseling/coaching are expensive. But, in the end...how important are you and your relationship? Obviously, they are very important. Maybe you can find some online that are reasonable. I found more than one that have the initial session for free to see if you even like the person...because this is crucial. Do not spend another minute with a coach/counselor that you don't feel 100% comfortable with.

I'm glad that you find this forum helpful. I too have enjoyed myself. It's great to get a different perspective from others that have their own issues and I have felt better the last couple of days. It has helped me realize how I truly feel and that I have to stand up for myself in order for me to be happy. Again, we are the ones responsible for our destiny. Only we can decide if we are happy or sad. Good luck!

I talked to my wife about this posting and our views on it. We came to the same conclusion that I mentioned earlier. That it's hard for a woman to believe or accept that a man can separate porn from wanting it to happen in real life. We talked about how if a woman watches a romantic movie with a hunk of a movie star, she will tend to fantacise about it and put herself in a role of having a relationship with the guy in her fantacy. Where-as a guy seeing a movie with a sexy girl might be turned on by how she looks or acts but honestly, it's more of an object kind of lust. It is her beauty or her cheam that turns him on. But his mind rarely ever crosses into the realm of "I wish I could date her" or "she'd be fun to have a date with" or "I wish my wife looked like that" or anything like that. Animal, raw, instinctual turn ons are very shallow and have no roots into other parts of our mind. So it is very easy for guys to separate those into different "departments".
My wife and I discussed this and she laughed and said "as much as you tell me that, I just can't believe that's how you think because that's not how I think". And so now we're back to the point where women will probably never be able to understand it so the best thing for guys to do is to let go of porn because of the hurt it causes to his wife who doesn't understand his mindset.

Like I said before, I'm not really sure why I ordered the subscription. I have really been reflecting on it. I guess I have several feelings;
-I wanted to feel like I had a strong enough self esteem to not care, unfortunatly it's not strong enough
-he wouldn't be able to lie about having porn
-I felt like I had been childish to break the DVD's and wanted to make up for it. After all, I know so many woman who are ok with their husbands looking at porn. They are secure enough to know that they love them, and will always come home to them. I want to feel like that, but I don't know if I can. So, I don't feel like it was out of weakness that I ordered it. I didn't really order it FOR him, I guess. Unfortunately, I am severly regreting it now because, your right Rocky, every month will bring hurt feelings.

Wasp, I'm not sure if every woman that sees a sexy hunk fantisizes about him. Maybe I have a well trained mind, but I really only fatisize about my H. How about you Rocky? There are certainly actors that I find attractive, but I don't think about them sexually. I'm not against masterbation, I'm against using another womans image to become aroused. I will admit to self-pleasuring, but there are no other male images present anywhere except for my H in my mind. I understand guys have urges and we are not always around. My H has pics of me, "home videos" that we made, and even a strip tease I made for him after the first porn issue. And trust me Rocky, that was not weakness. That was one of the hardest things I have ever done. For someone with low self esteem to put on sexy lingerie, dance around and strip in front of a camera, boy that took alot of strength. The only thing that could have made it harder would have been to do it in front of him.
I believe in being strong and standing up for what one feels is right, but I also believe that some women can become too strong. They only see what they want and will not compromise. I believe in finding common ground, finding 50/50, I'm just not sure if there is such a place for this issue. I need to reflect more on what I'm really willing to accept. I mean, if the frequence that he was looking at porn really, truly was only once a month, and I was feeling like I was his #1, maybe I could except that. I'm not sure.

I told my wife how you broke his DVDs. She laughed and said it sounded like something she'd do. I'm sure a ton of women would have done the same thing.

One thing I really commend you on is that it sounds like you are able to "give a little". The fact that you made him that video is more than a lot of women would be willing to do for their husband. It really does seem like it's time that he "gave a little" too by moving in a direction of less or no porn.

When you're in a relationship, you can't expect to live the same way you did when you were single. That means giving up some of the freedom that you had when you were single. I imagine that SOMEWHERE in your husband's mind is the concept and fear of him loosing his freedom. He may also resent that you are imposing something on him which he sees as "private" and "not affecting anyone but himself". That's some of my struggles with my wife not being ok with masterbation. But the reality is that it does affect you. Maybe you should work on your self esteem but he should not treat your heart-break soo lightly. He should be making an effort to make you feel loved and important.

If I were you, I'd start out with little consequences and then work your way up instead of going straight for a divorce like you were thinking.

* Don't make him meals - make him cook himself
* Don't show him affection
* If that doesn't do it, Don't sleep with him for weeks or months
* Then move in with your parents

If you are contemplating a divorce, you have nothing to lose by trying these methods. You're practically giving him a chance to turn around.

Needtotalk...I bet you ordered the subscription as a way to make peace but again...it will hurt every month. I have friends that also think no big deal of their men looking at porn...but I know that isn't me. I wouldn't feel as deeply about a man if he does and that's not what I want in a long term relationship. It's the lusting for other women that bothers me. If I'm not the one that turns him on, then why is he with me.

That's great that you made a video...I don't know if I could. I have to admit that if I find my SO's CDs I'd destroy them. I remember the anger I felt when I found out that he viewed them when I was gone. I also remember feeling like he had punched me in the gut...sickened.

wasp89...I think it is great that your wive is in on your posting. Keep the communication going...how best to heal and grow together. You are hearing from other women what your wife has told you...validating that it isn't just her. And she should feel better that she is not alone.

I agree with your comments that we don't live as we did when we were single. I feel that if that is the lifestyle a person really wants, they should stay single. I think your wife is very lucky that you are so willing to take her feelings into consideration and change your behaviour. If she is like me, she will feel like the luckiest woman on earth and your relationship will grow more than you can anticipate.

I have a friend that converted to be Orthodox Jew and married a very wonderful man. She told me that the women were hats or wigs and long sleeves and long dresses...they cover their bodies. They only expose themselves to their husband. It may sound corny, but I thought this sounded extremely romantic. Can you imagine how close and intimate these two people could feel knowing that they were only for each other. It may be a bit sappy but that kind of intimacy would be the ultimate.

What did your wife do that made you finally realize how bothered she was?
-I already usually don't cook for him. I teach horseback riding lessons, and 3x a week I'm not even in the house before 8pm. When I do, since I'm now watching what I eat, its healthy food. Sometimes that is better torture than not cooking!
-I really haven't been showing him much affection. I don't really feel like it.
-By "sleep" do you mean not have sex with him, or literally sleep? And if I deny him SF, won't that encourage "alternatives"?
-My H, myself, and my mom bought a horse farm together. So, I already live with my mom, sort of. We have seperate areas of the house, like and in-law set-up.

I don't really think that I was contemplating divorce quite yet, but I really hate being so unhappy. I'm trying to work on my self esteem; dieting and exercise are helping. I wasn't overweight, but I was pudgy. I'm 5'2 and I was about 160 lbs post baby. I own horses and do alot of labor work, so I have some muscles, too. It wasn't all fat. I've lost 35 lbs since finding the "porn". (As a guy, would you consider the DVDs I described as porn?) My co wrokers compliment me almost everyday. That has helped, but I still feel like have to drag any kind words out of him. I put on a pair of jeans that I haven't been able to wear since I get pregnant, and ran out to show him. I was so happy, and all he did was nod! Huge blow to my happy feeling!! It's those kinds of actions that make me feel unappreciated and unattractive. I've worked very hard to get back to this weight, and it seems like he barely notices.

I'd be careful...I didn't have sex with my ex because of his lack of respect for me. I thought that since it was so important to him, he would do something different. He did...he got a girlfriend. All this I found out after the divorce. In our case, it was the best thing I ever did. Living alone is better than living with him.

Congratulations on the weight loss...and if he doesn't pay any attention, just remember, you did it for YOU!!! Your self esteem will be better and you'll feel physically better. IF...your relationship doesn't work, you will have yourself. So everything you can do for yourself, will not be in vain. (I'm jealous...I wish I had horses.) Your baby needs to be cared for no matter what your relationship does...you have to be strong for your child.

Have a good weekend. Take care of yourself!

As a man I think it is something to be concerned about!! But what about a woman that neeeds porn to have sex? What about a woman who all she feels like she needs to do for sex is show up? No emotion, no intamcy, nothing just get me hot and stick and move. For the ladies out there is that how sex is suppose to be lifeless from your end?

If your guy watching porn really bugs you, then control what you can control, YOU and make sure you wear him out from all the good sex you are giving him.

You can make sure he is so satisfied and tired from being with you that he won't have the time or energy for porn.

Why does a guy look at porn?

Because he has free time and wants a sexual release.

Hmmm, why isn't his wife taking care of that?

Is she too busy with the kids?

Is one of the kids sleeping in the bed with mom and dad?

Ultimately men make the choice, so you cannot blame the woman for the choice to look at porn. But much like affairs, you can place the blame on them for creating the conditions that cause a man to look elsewhere for his sexual satisfaction.

T

That sound so simple doesn't it, but what about him not wanting me. Over the last several months, he has rejected me a few times, and not been very enthusiastic at others. I already do most of the initiating. He claims to be tired all the time, and maybe that is true. And he claims to look at porn very infrequently, less than once a month, and maybe that is true. But the lies he has told me in the recent past are making it so difficult for me to know the truth. How should a wife feel if her husband seems uninterested and then she finds a secret stash of porn? I need to work on my self esteem, but his lack of interest is hurting it.

Yesterday, I saw that the DVD that came with the subscription had been moved. He denies watching it. I'm upset because I don't totally believe him. He said, "Why would I lie about it". My response was, "Why wouldn't you?" And the whole "men watch porn because they have free time" is BS. I asked him to put the dishes in the dishwasher, and I asked nicely, but was it done, NO. There is no excuse for boredom, there is plenty to do!

that made me laugh when you talked about the dishes.

When I said boredom, I'm talking about basically running out of things that you WANT to do or find interesting. I'm sure he doesn't think the dishwasher is interesting.

All I can say is that if I had to guess, he probably still is watching porn. At the same time, I'm sure you accuse him of it sometimes when he has not.

For myself, I was able to give up porn with not too much trouble and I don't really feel like I miss it. He seems more hooked than I was or doesn't see the harm in it and doesn't want to stop or something.

Trust is such an important thing but soo hard to rebuild. Maybe you guys can work out a system where once a week he has to report to you if he's viewed porn. It has to be a couple of sentences. He has to say things like "I was tempted but did not" or "I did watch it on Monday and Wednesday" or whatever. In turn, you will promise not to nagg him and question him about it. How does that sound?

wow...see what started as a good idea in the 60s and turned into some kind of egotistical monster, the womens movement, has become. Its the death of harmony and happiness in relationships.

Your statement about placing the blame on women for creating the conditions that cause them to look elsewhere is a bunch of BS. Nine times out of ten if the man took the time to get close enough to his wife for her to want sex with him - he'd probably have to drive her off part of the time.
As for men having a higher sex drive than women - that one can go out the window too. Some of mine and my X's biggest problems revolved around the fact that my sex drive was so much higher than his. At least that's what started the whole chirrade. Right now I'm single and have been since June 04, has my sex drive disappeared - nope. In fact if it would drop it might be easier to live alone permanently.
Do I go out and have sex with men or read or look at things to get off - nope - but it is something I have to take care of or I will get grouchy.
As for men being the only ones that are driven by looks, BS. Women can have creative enough imaginations and a high enough drive to be able to look at someone and get way on down the road in feelings. And usually when that happened to me, I ended up having to do something about it before that image that struck me would leave me alone. Of course not then and there, but when I stop and rest at home and relax, it would usually pop back up in my mind. Just sitting here telling about it I can remember several images in my mind that aroused me. Now I will admit that they were all of different guys that I liked. Usually a guy thinks that just because a girl looks sexy she's gonna be good in bed. oooops! you can let that one go too. And the same goes with the things girls look at in boys. One thing that turned me on about one guy was watching his hands while he was shooting pool. My imagination took off and I started thinking about what he did for a living, what he was doing at the time, plus the fact that I liked him (we weren't close yet) and all of a sudden something woke up.

A friend of mine told me two days ago that one of their friends (female) had spent large sums of money on trying to have her libido increased. She didn't have any drive at all and didn't like it. He said (and she affirmed later) that once she was given some homemade scoulpernon (sorry about the spelling) he made she didn't have any problem anymore. I told him be sure he didn't give me any my drive didn't need to go up at all.
Now there was a time when my drive was non-existant. When things in my marriage were going so rotten I couldn't stand it, and my H cut me down for wanting as much sex as I did, it died off - totally. So the way women are treated often has a lot to do with their drive. In fact Dr. Harley states that your sex life will tell you lots about the rest of your relationship.
So just back off from laying all the blame for making those conditions on a woman. Lots of the time a man actually does it to himself by how he treats that woman.
And by the way, once my drive died off, my X was wishing I was back like I was when we first got married.
Thank God I don't deal with him anymore!

RMW

RMW,

I don't blame it all on the woman, but it appears you want to blame it mostly on the man, at least 9 out of 10 times if I understand the numbers you present in your opinion.


The problem is, as I see it, we ARE trying to get close to the women we love, and then we are told WE ARE DOING IT WRONG.

Ladies, make it safe for us to get close. Just because we don't do it the way YOU would do it doesn't make us wrong, just different.

T

I was watching something the other night and it was very entertaining. It was about a class you could take from sex experts and the experts taught men how to make love to women. It was great! Some of the stuff in there was just plain weird but the part where men are shown how to touch women (for instance, they pointed out that a lot of men aren't gentle enough), how to focus on foreplay more and getting women to build up to arousal was very factual IMO. Women generally take longer to get aroused and on average take about 20 min. to reach orgasm whereas men take about 2 min. BIG difference!

Like Dr. H. says in "His Needs/Her Needs" women need affection. When I feel loved and when my partner shows me love and affection, I am more responsive to sex.

FWIW,

I really think a great love making session takes more than even 20 minutes.

I just asked for the chance to show that to my ex-wife. But because I wasn't doing everything else, just the way she wanted it, that was a no-go.

Oh well, some lucky lady in the future will reap the benfits that XWW rejected.

T

I agree, I get that answer about porn-all men do it, and that's a lousy justification of hurting someone's feelings. It's rude to screw up a relationship to justify porn.

Nat

Totally irrelevant to the thread but just wanted to say how wonderful is was to read the CORRECT use of a term for once, ie. 'I COULDN'T care less', instead of 'I COULD care less.' This is one of those intensely irritating Americanisms based on ignorance which have crept in of late - the other REALLY annoying one being the use of 'alternate' for 'alternative', ie, 'I had no alternate but to get divorced.'

How can people think, 'I could care less' is right? This would be like saying, 'I could give a damn', and is utterly wrong. But then we live in a world where knowledge of punctuation, spelling, grammar and the meaning of words is becoming increasingly rare. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

needsfixing,

The syntax does suggests that these expressions should be opposites, but the older form, is still rather colloquial, is it not? In other words, both expressions are quite 'slangy' so what difference does it make?

Personally, I think it is actually a very interesting linguistic development.

In my neck of the woods (New England) the change in the term seemed to take place some time in the 1960's--in spoken language and as a change in 'stress pattern'

...like when you say, "I should be so lucky" or "Tell me about it"

It may be true that 'I could care less' has some social class stigma attached when it is put into writing but only because it is hard to be sarcastic in writing, it loses its force when put on paper and just ends up looking stupid.

But in a forum, people tend want to come across like they are 'speaking' rather than writing in a formal way. Their intent is to communicate meaning—at least to those who really could care less. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry, I don't agree with that. I've been in situations where I've seen my woman trying to wear me out to make sure that I wouldn't be interested in porn and it was very transparent what she was trying to do. It felt manipulative and not as much fun. It felt like she had an alterior motive for sex and it made me feel that much more caged.

Porn is more like an on and off switch. When you've decided and suceeded that it needs to stay off, lack of sex has little to do with porn. Getting off, that's a whole nother story. But porn, I think is more of a choice than a natural alternative resulting from lack of sex.

I say this because I think women will be disappointed if they try to wear their guys out and they still find out he's viewing porn.

Porn is not morally right. But many men do view it and many men have repeatedly attempted to explain their mind-set and motivation for viewing it. Yet, the answer from women like you is always the same-- one of unwillingness to believe what guys are saying-- chalking it up as a justification. I wish women would say "that may be how guys are wired but they need to overcome it" or "I believe they think that way but as a woman it's just too hard to understand that difference and so I still feel insecure". That would at least acknowlege that you believe the guys are telling the truth but this is how you feel in return. Rather many times, the standard answer is "*huff* excuses excuses". And that is not a very understanding stance to take.

Why does a guy need to look at porn....when he has a loving wife/lover/constant companion, and who both fulfill each overs needs. Thats not say we don't have differences as individuals. We put some time and hard work into our marriage and we both communicate openly with each other,
which only strengthens our spiritual, mental, emotionl
and physical needs. God also big part to play in it..
Porn no...Marriage yessssssss.........

Are you trying to understand? Or is this a rhetorical question, and you've already made up your mind that a guy should not look at porn?

some of the answers I saw on this thread really sounded like a pile of sh..!!! If men bothered to put more effort into connecting to their wives in an emotional way and help them feel close and cared for I expect they would get a lot more of what they wanted in the first place. Chances are they wouldn't need a book to look at their wives would help them out there. But demanding sex every day and being a bast..d about it is certainly no way to get what their after! If they want it to be good in bed (or the living room, or the kitchen, or utility room) then they have to learn enough about their wives to give them what it takes to make them feel good enough about the relationship that they actually WANT to do those things. It doesn't come without a price. Hey porn buyers were willing to pay for their books or whatever 'tool' they used. Try investing a little more into the relationship and give the woman time to see that it's not just something that you're gonna do when you want to "get it on"! Make the relationship real and it WILL happen!! I've been there. As long as things were going well - well things went good all the way around. But when things started slacking off, guess what - the rest of it started slacking off too. You men can't expect to get anymore than you are willing to give. TAKE THAT TO THE BANK!!!!!!!

I do too, many of the generalizations about men not being willing to give are a steaming pile of BS.

Today is my YD's birthday. I spent yesterday with her and took her shopping. She is 8 today.

We are at a store and some woman I don't know tells my daughter that she is a lucky man, that her dad is willing and able to spend the day with her shopping at the mall, and making a big deal of her birthday.

I wonder, how could a stranger notice this, when my now ex-wife, who lived with me for years couldn't see that I was willing to give her my all.

I suspect there are many more men who ARE willing to give it all, but have been beaten down by women who continually tell them that they are not doing it correctly.

What drove it home yesterday is that ex-wife and I are still sorting out some of the financial disconnects, getting her share of the retirement funds earned in her name soley, and I thought to myself.

She settled for half the money and none of me, when she could have had it all. She chose a man who cheated on his wife and ended a 30 some year marriage to be with her.

I know he was at the apartment last night when I dropped off YD. He was hiding somewhere in there, afraid to show his face. XW was hiding behind the door, in her nightgown at 9pm.

So RMW, I did invest, heavily into my marriage, and I'm divorced. I offered my now ex-wife everything, my time, my money, my attention. It was all thrown away, or invalidated because it was not as her unarticulated picture of what she wanted was.

I told her before we married that I would move heaven and earth to be the best husband I could be, she simply had to paint a coherent picture that I understood, because I was horrible at reading minds.

I still am.

When I asked the question, what is your picture of an ideal marriage well into the marriage, there was no answer.

When I asked for an hour a day where the two of us could connect, emotionaly, physically, spiritually, and mentalally, there was no answer. This request was years before her affair.

When she asked that I be more available, I was. I quit a travelling job to be home more. What was her action? When I'd come home and sit on the couch with her, she would almost immediately get up and move to the bedroom and turn on the TV there, or some other action to shut me out.

I took what you said to the bank, and the check bounced.

So do you blame me for using porn after years of being ignored by my wife? By having my attempts at marriage building, long before I knew of Marriage Builders rejected?

I'm not saying what I did was right, in fact, it wasn't. I'm not blaming her either. I'm simply explaining how I saw things, how my efforts, very real efforts, were rejected. How expectations that I read her mind, or be able to make her happy when she herself couldn't articulate what that meant, were unfruitful and eventually lead to me losing any desire to keep hitting my celebate head against that wall.

BTW, I haven't used porn since the day she said she wanted to move out, lest anyone think that I believe it's ok. That's over three years now.

Well obviously there wan't enough communication, even if it was on her part. I had no problem telling David exactly what I needed. And after we'd spend a few days apart, he'd come running back. I told him what my values were, I told him what I needed in a relationship, and for a few days he'd to exactly that, but then once he started getting the sex again, he started his same old routine. I told him how it made me feel to have pictures of naked women on his walls even if it was in the garage, he said he would take them down, guess what, he never did. He called me up at 10pm last night supposedly to talk. When he couldn't get me to agree to his version of sex he started abusing me over the phone again. That's all I get if I can't follow through on his wild, and sometimes sickening version of sex. I don't want his fluids all over my face and where ever else he might want to put them. He refuses to accept that he changes his behavior in any way after he's been with me for a while. Well, that is a flat out lie. He turns from the guy that is kind and considerate to a total ah. I've already explained to him repeatedly what I enjoy about sex and that if I feel no connection emotionally I have no drive for sex. He just said last night well you spread your legs and do it anyway. He even said, "you can work 30 min a day on your back or 8 hrs a day on your feet". I told him I'd take the 8 hrs a day. He said he'd kill somebody if that would make me happy, he said he'd rob a bank to get the money to come see me if he didn't have it. I've taken Dr. Harley's books and plans to him from the beginning and he just gets mad and starts yelling and screaming. Last night I listened to enough of his abuse and cursing that I finally told him if he wanted to continue to talk to me he could do it in a respectable manner or the conversation was over. So a couple of words came through in a lowered tone and then he started raising his voice again and started using curse words again. I told him if he used one more curse word at me that I would hang up the phone. He said he didn't give a s..., go ahead and hang up, so I did.
And by the way his girls are grown and he has 5 grandchildren. His girls hate his guts. The only time they will even talk to him is if they want money from him.
Maybe your wife tried at some point to tell you and it didn't come through and then she was lost and didn't know what to say anymore. Chances are it wasn't just a sit on the couch that she was hoping you would do. She probably wanted you to talk to her about something and felt hurt but didn't know how to express it without getting in a fight. Once the barriers are up it takes a while for then to come down. And things that happen just remind of the pain that hasn't gone away yet so leaving the room and finding something else to do is the easy way out.
David even admitted he was a sex addict. I said I can't deal with that. If he wanted to have a relationship with me then he needed to get help with his problem. I've started seeing a counselor on my own just to help me get through what has been going on and to find out if there is anything that I need to work on. I even had them do one of their 2hr tests on me to find out if there was anything wrong with me. They said no. That my test results came back normal. I have no problem talking to people who want to listen, but even Dr H. said he wasn't listening because he didn't want to hear what I had to say. He told me I was better off without him because from the behaviors we've discussed over the phone as well as online, it was a relationship headed for abuse and control. And I believe him even more now than ever before.
My apologies to you if you think you've done everything necesary and she's all at fault, but I know from past experience (not just my own, but others too) that it takes two to make a problem when communicating is a problem.
Porn used by a so just lowers a woman's view of herself in the man's eyes. And that in itself is enough to turn her off to sex immediately. And it isn't forgotten overnight. So all of that being said, you can either be mad at me or you can take the fact that there are more men out there that are guilty than not. The choice is yours. I wasn't put here to make you happy. That was to be between you and your wife. I stated a case point and you were offended.
But somewhere along the line, not all the fault falls on your x, some of it fell in your lap too.
My biggest problem was I let myself get attached to the man before I found out enough about him to let me know what I would be having to deal with. And with most of the men I've run in to, the way I stated is the way it works - like it or leave it.

I don't think I ever said I did everything necessary.

I did do everything Steve Harley said to do.

I don't blame my ex-wife solely for the failed marriage. In fact, most here tell me I own too much.

But I don't own her choice to have an affair and choose divorce over seeking profession, pro-marriage counselling to see if the issues could really be resolved.

Let's be clear, we BOTH stated our points, and you called mine BS.

You may not agree with me, but to call something BS and then write and complain because David used the same offensive term seems inconsistent to me.

To say something is a pile of sh... and then cut David off because he uses that word.

Odd, very odd, like a double standard.

RMW, I think you were wonderful for hanging up on him--he sounds like a total heel, and Enlightened, I also believe that sometimes the "weight of the matter" can lean more to one side than the other. Some people are so handicapped within themselves that it wouldn't matter if their spouse moved Mt. Everest for them/for the sake of the relationship. I believe some relationships are simply (and inevitably) bound for failure due to the inability/unwillingness of one of the partners to make the necessary adjustments/compromises/sacrifices, etc. that the situation requires. Certainly not a one-zize-fits-all, but I do believe such a scenario exists.

thanks KAT, it was hard to hang up. I know that right now I'm wearing bloody hands because because sometimes I don't know when to just hang up like I did that time. My right hand is swelled up from abuse that I've let go on way too long. At least I did clean it up with peroxide and then betadine. I know he wants the relationship to work, but so far there have been no counselors who wanted to work with Dr. H's program. I've hunted as far as 90miles away and everyone wants to do their own thing - and their own thing never works, but they are closed minded. One day I will be strong enough to cut loose all the way or find a counselor that see's that Dr. H's stuff comes from the Bible. I wish that Brian Wilber was still in the area because he's the one that introduced me to the whole program, but I'd never deny him the happiness that he's found back in MI. Just keep praying for me because God understands things even when I don't.

RMW,

You are looking for counselors that follow Dr. H's methods. Are there reasons you aren't going directly to the source and try counseling with the Harley's?

Sometimes people need a person to peson counselor. Not everyone that reads Dr. Harley's stuff understands it all the way. I know that I was seeing a pesonal counselor when I found out about his stuff and then went to the seminar. If I had a question about anything before I went and could get online with Dr. Harley, I could always ask my counselor Brian Wilber. Unfortunately, the man I was married to at the time refused to read Dr. H's books (did't like to read) and wouldn't get online to ask him questions. Don't know if it was some kind of "male" thing or if he just didn't know what to ask. But the one I've been seeing has read the two books HN,HN & Love Busters but still doesn't understand a lot of it. He even admitted that he needed someone he could sit and talk to and ask questions.
I did finally get up with my old counselor. I had to track him down on the internet (actually got his cousin and they told me how to get up with him) and he finally called me back last night. He gave me his new phone # so I could get back up with him if I needed to for any reason. But he did tell me who he used (counselors have to have counselors to unload from their counseling of others) and he told me of a counselor in Dothan who knows at least about HN,HN and he figured she would be willing to work with us. An accountability with her will also help motivate when problems pop up and resistance is experienced. Plus Brian will be able to release my old records to her which will help her in the whole process.
Plus there have been times I have asked Dr.H questions and for one reason or another he didn't answer them. When a question is asked, an answer is needed even if the question is one that doesn't seem credible. It could just be that the counselor has to pull information out of the individual to know for sure if they are asking the question properly to receive an answer that will help them. Dr.Harley doesn't have time for that. He already has an overload on what he is doing and doesn't have the time to give all that would be needed in all cases. If I lived close enough to where his practice is (if he still does in office counseling) then I could go to him. But that's not the case.
Anyway, I'm about to get offline now and see if I can contact the counselor that my old counselor referred me to. Got my fingers crossed.