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I have to sign off, my son will be waking up soon. I have had trouble signing on in the past. The account I opened when this was all first happening wouldn't let me in. Boy I could have used this communication back then. I came on today and saw this thread and I had to get on, so I ended up opening a new e-mail address today just so I could sign up again. I hope it lets me sign in again after I log out. If not, I'll sign up another new e-mail again! and again, and again....

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I would never have given a subscription...it is counter to everything said and felt. Is this another pattern some of us women fall into? Beat ourselves down...we are't worthy. Maybe you should talk to your husband about it and tell him that you truly want to cancel it now...everytime it shows up the hurt feelings will be brought to the surface...OUCH. This should be a time to repair the damage and heal.

The previous website I posted for HealthOnE is about coaching...their main view is to not deal with the past, but to learn to work on the here and now. It makes sense. I suggest going to the site and signing up for their 7 reports...they are free. I enjoyed reading them because of their perspective.

I believe that if a spouse truly cares and if the issue is posed in a nonthreatening way...they will listen. The 6th report I received yesterday about changing yourself made so much sense to me. We are only in charge of our own destiny.

I know that counseling/coaching are expensive. But, in the end...how important are you and your relationship? Obviously, they are very important. Maybe you can find some online that are reasonable. I found more than one that have the initial session for free to see if you even like the person...because this is crucial. Do not spend another minute with a coach/counselor that you don't feel 100% comfortable with.

I'm glad that you find this forum helpful. I too have enjoyed myself. It's great to get a different perspective from others that have their own issues and I have felt better the last couple of days. It has helped me realize how I truly feel and that I have to stand up for myself in order for me to be happy. Again, we are the ones responsible for our destiny. Only we can decide if we are happy or sad. Good luck!

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I talked to my wife about this posting and our views on it. We came to the same conclusion that I mentioned earlier. That it's hard for a woman to believe or accept that a man can separate porn from wanting it to happen in real life. We talked about how if a woman watches a romantic movie with a hunk of a movie star, she will tend to fantacise about it and put herself in a role of having a relationship with the guy in her fantacy. Where-as a guy seeing a movie with a sexy girl might be turned on by how she looks or acts but honestly, it's more of an object kind of lust. It is her beauty or her cheam that turns him on. But his mind rarely ever crosses into the realm of "I wish I could date her" or "she'd be fun to have a date with" or "I wish my wife looked like that" or anything like that. Animal, raw, instinctual turn ons are very shallow and have no roots into other parts of our mind. So it is very easy for guys to separate those into different "departments".
My wife and I discussed this and she laughed and said "as much as you tell me that, I just can't believe that's how you think because that's not how I think". And so now we're back to the point where women will probably never be able to understand it so the best thing for guys to do is to let go of porn because of the hurt it causes to his wife who doesn't understand his mindset.

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Like I said before, I'm not really sure why I ordered the subscription. I have really been reflecting on it. I guess I have several feelings;
-I wanted to feel like I had a strong enough self esteem to not care, unfortunatly it's not strong enough
-he wouldn't be able to lie about having porn
-I felt like I had been childish to break the DVD's and wanted to make up for it. After all, I know so many woman who are ok with their husbands looking at porn. They are secure enough to know that they love them, and will always come home to them. I want to feel like that, but I don't know if I can. So, I don't feel like it was out of weakness that I ordered it. I didn't really order it FOR him, I guess. Unfortunately, I am severly regreting it now because, your right Rocky, every month will bring hurt feelings.

Wasp, I'm not sure if every woman that sees a sexy hunk fantisizes about him. Maybe I have a well trained mind, but I really only fatisize about my H. How about you Rocky? There are certainly actors that I find attractive, but I don't think about them sexually. I'm not against masterbation, I'm against using another womans image to become aroused. I will admit to self-pleasuring, but there are no other male images present anywhere except for my H in my mind. I understand guys have urges and we are not always around. My H has pics of me, "home videos" that we made, and even a strip tease I made for him after the first porn issue. And trust me Rocky, that was not weakness. That was one of the hardest things I have ever done. For someone with low self esteem to put on sexy lingerie, dance around and strip in front of a camera, boy that took alot of strength. The only thing that could have made it harder would have been to do it in front of him.
I believe in being strong and standing up for what one feels is right, but I also believe that some women can become too strong. They only see what they want and will not compromise. I believe in finding common ground, finding 50/50, I'm just not sure if there is such a place for this issue. I need to reflect more on what I'm really willing to accept. I mean, if the frequence that he was looking at porn really, truly was only once a month, and I was feeling like I was his #1, maybe I could except that. I'm not sure.

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I told my wife how you broke his DVDs. She laughed and said it sounded like something she'd do. I'm sure a ton of women would have done the same thing.

One thing I really commend you on is that it sounds like you are able to "give a little". The fact that you made him that video is more than a lot of women would be willing to do for their husband. It really does seem like it's time that he "gave a little" too by moving in a direction of less or no porn.

When you're in a relationship, you can't expect to live the same way you did when you were single. That means giving up some of the freedom that you had when you were single. I imagine that SOMEWHERE in your husband's mind is the concept and fear of him loosing his freedom. He may also resent that you are imposing something on him which he sees as "private" and "not affecting anyone but himself". That's some of my struggles with my wife not being ok with masterbation. But the reality is that it does affect you. Maybe you should work on your self esteem but he should not treat your heart-break soo lightly. He should be making an effort to make you feel loved and important.

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If I were you, I'd start out with little consequences and then work your way up instead of going straight for a divorce like you were thinking.

* Don't make him meals - make him cook himself
* Don't show him affection
* If that doesn't do it, Don't sleep with him for weeks or months
* Then move in with your parents

If you are contemplating a divorce, you have nothing to lose by trying these methods. You're practically giving him a chance to turn around.

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Needtotalk...I bet you ordered the subscription as a way to make peace but again...it will hurt every month. I have friends that also think no big deal of their men looking at porn...but I know that isn't me. I wouldn't feel as deeply about a man if he does and that's not what I want in a long term relationship. It's the lusting for other women that bothers me. If I'm not the one that turns him on, then why is he with me.

That's great that you made a video...I don't know if I could. I have to admit that if I find my SO's CDs I'd destroy them. I remember the anger I felt when I found out that he viewed them when I was gone. I also remember feeling like he had punched me in the gut...sickened.

wasp89...I think it is great that your wive is in on your posting. Keep the communication going...how best to heal and grow together. You are hearing from other women what your wife has told you...validating that it isn't just her. And she should feel better that she is not alone.

I agree with your comments that we don't live as we did when we were single. I feel that if that is the lifestyle a person really wants, they should stay single. I think your wife is very lucky that you are so willing to take her feelings into consideration and change your behaviour. If she is like me, she will feel like the luckiest woman on earth and your relationship will grow more than you can anticipate.

I have a friend that converted to be Orthodox Jew and married a very wonderful man. She told me that the women were hats or wigs and long sleeves and long dresses...they cover their bodies. They only expose themselves to their husband. It may sound corny, but I thought this sounded extremely romantic. Can you imagine how close and intimate these two people could feel knowing that they were only for each other. It may be a bit sappy but that kind of intimacy would be the ultimate.

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What did your wife do that made you finally realize how bothered she was?
-I already usually don't cook for him. I teach horseback riding lessons, and 3x a week I'm not even in the house before 8pm. When I do, since I'm now watching what I eat, its healthy food. Sometimes that is better torture than not cooking!
-I really haven't been showing him much affection. I don't really feel like it.
-By "sleep" do you mean not have sex with him, or literally sleep? And if I deny him SF, won't that encourage "alternatives"?
-My H, myself, and my mom bought a horse farm together. So, I already live with my mom, sort of. We have seperate areas of the house, like and in-law set-up.

I don't really think that I was contemplating divorce quite yet, but I really hate being so unhappy. I'm trying to work on my self esteem; dieting and exercise are helping. I wasn't overweight, but I was pudgy. I'm 5'2 and I was about 160 lbs post baby. I own horses and do alot of labor work, so I have some muscles, too. It wasn't all fat. I've lost 35 lbs since finding the "porn". (As a guy, would you consider the DVDs I described as porn?) My co wrokers compliment me almost everyday. That has helped, but I still feel like have to drag any kind words out of him. I put on a pair of jeans that I haven't been able to wear since I get pregnant, and ran out to show him. I was so happy, and all he did was nod! Huge blow to my happy feeling!! It's those kinds of actions that make me feel unappreciated and unattractive. I've worked very hard to get back to this weight, and it seems like he barely notices.

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I'd be careful...I didn't have sex with my ex because of his lack of respect for me. I thought that since it was so important to him, he would do something different. He did...he got a girlfriend. All this I found out after the divorce. In our case, it was the best thing I ever did. Living alone is better than living with him.

Congratulations on the weight loss...and if he doesn't pay any attention, just remember, you did it for YOU!!! Your self esteem will be better and you'll feel physically better. IF...your relationship doesn't work, you will have yourself. So everything you can do for yourself, will not be in vain. (I'm jealous...I wish I had horses.) Your baby needs to be cared for no matter what your relationship does...you have to be strong for your child.

Have a good weekend. Take care of yourself!

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As a man I think it is something to be concerned about!! But what about a woman that neeeds porn to have sex? What about a woman who all she feels like she needs to do for sex is show up? No emotion, no intamcy, nothing just get me hot and stick and move. For the ladies out there is that how sex is suppose to be lifeless from your end?

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If your guy watching porn really bugs you, then control what you can control, YOU and make sure you wear him out from all the good sex you are giving him.

You can make sure he is so satisfied and tired from being with you that he won't have the time or energy for porn.

Why does a guy look at porn?

Because he has free time and wants a sexual release.

Hmmm, why isn't his wife taking care of that?

Is she too busy with the kids?

Is one of the kids sleeping in the bed with mom and dad?

Ultimately men make the choice, so you cannot blame the woman for the choice to look at porn. But much like affairs, you can place the blame on them for creating the conditions that cause a man to look elsewhere for his sexual satisfaction.

T

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That sound so simple doesn't it, but what about him not wanting me. Over the last several months, he has rejected me a few times, and not been very enthusiastic at others. I already do most of the initiating. He claims to be tired all the time, and maybe that is true. And he claims to look at porn very infrequently, less than once a month, and maybe that is true. But the lies he has told me in the recent past are making it so difficult for me to know the truth. How should a wife feel if her husband seems uninterested and then she finds a secret stash of porn? I need to work on my self esteem, but his lack of interest is hurting it.

Yesterday, I saw that the DVD that came with the subscription had been moved. He denies watching it. I'm upset because I don't totally believe him. He said, "Why would I lie about it". My response was, "Why wouldn't you?" And the whole "men watch porn because they have free time" is BS. I asked him to put the dishes in the dishwasher, and I asked nicely, but was it done, NO. There is no excuse for boredom, there is plenty to do!

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that made me laugh when you talked about the dishes.

When I said boredom, I'm talking about basically running out of things that you WANT to do or find interesting. I'm sure he doesn't think the dishwasher is interesting.

All I can say is that if I had to guess, he probably still is watching porn. At the same time, I'm sure you accuse him of it sometimes when he has not.

For myself, I was able to give up porn with not too much trouble and I don't really feel like I miss it. He seems more hooked than I was or doesn't see the harm in it and doesn't want to stop or something.

Trust is such an important thing but soo hard to rebuild. Maybe you guys can work out a system where once a week he has to report to you if he's viewed porn. It has to be a couple of sentences. He has to say things like "I was tempted but did not" or "I did watch it on Monday and Wednesday" or whatever. In turn, you will promise not to nagg him and question him about it. How does that sound?

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wow...see what started as a good idea in the 60s and turned into some kind of egotistical monster, the womens movement, has become. Its the death of harmony and happiness in relationships.


DDay-jan 10 2002, and sept 6 2004 BS-41 (me) WS-33 (wife) still married 12 years 3 kids....8,10,12
raganm #64950 11/09/05 05:55 PM
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Your statement about placing the blame on women for creating the conditions that cause them to look elsewhere is a bunch of BS. Nine times out of ten if the man took the time to get close enough to his wife for her to want sex with him - he'd probably have to drive her off part of the time.
As for men having a higher sex drive than women - that one can go out the window too. Some of mine and my X's biggest problems revolved around the fact that my sex drive was so much higher than his. At least that's what started the whole chirrade. Right now I'm single and have been since June 04, has my sex drive disappeared - nope. In fact if it would drop it might be easier to live alone permanently.
Do I go out and have sex with men or read or look at things to get off - nope - but it is something I have to take care of or I will get grouchy.
As for men being the only ones that are driven by looks, BS. Women can have creative enough imaginations and a high enough drive to be able to look at someone and get way on down the road in feelings. And usually when that happened to me, I ended up having to do something about it before that image that struck me would leave me alone. Of course not then and there, but when I stop and rest at home and relax, it would usually pop back up in my mind. Just sitting here telling about it I can remember several images in my mind that aroused me. Now I will admit that they were all of different guys that I liked. Usually a guy thinks that just because a girl looks sexy she's gonna be good in bed. oooops! you can let that one go too. And the same goes with the things girls look at in boys. One thing that turned me on about one guy was watching his hands while he was shooting pool. My imagination took off and I started thinking about what he did for a living, what he was doing at the time, plus the fact that I liked him (we weren't close yet) and all of a sudden something woke up.

A friend of mine told me two days ago that one of their friends (female) had spent large sums of money on trying to have her libido increased. She didn't have any drive at all and didn't like it. He said (and she affirmed later) that once she was given some homemade scoulpernon (sorry about the spelling) he made she didn't have any problem anymore. I told him be sure he didn't give me any my drive didn't need to go up at all.
Now there was a time when my drive was non-existant. When things in my marriage were going so rotten I couldn't stand it, and my H cut me down for wanting as much sex as I did, it died off - totally. So the way women are treated often has a lot to do with their drive. In fact Dr. Harley states that your sex life will tell you lots about the rest of your relationship.
So just back off from laying all the blame for making those conditions on a woman. Lots of the time a man actually does it to himself by how he treats that woman.
And by the way, once my drive died off, my X was wishing I was back like I was when we first got married.
Thank God I don't deal with him anymore!

RMW

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RMW,

I don't blame it all on the woman, but it appears you want to blame it mostly on the man, at least 9 out of 10 times if I understand the numbers you present in your opinion.

Quote:


Nine times out of ten if the man took the time to get close enough to his wife for her to want sex with him - he'd probably have to drive her off part of the time.





The problem is, as I see it, we ARE trying to get close to the women we love, and then we are told WE ARE DOING IT WRONG.

Ladies, make it safe for us to get close. Just because we don't do it the way YOU would do it doesn't make us wrong, just different.

T

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I was watching something the other night and it was very entertaining. It was about a class you could take from sex experts and the experts taught men how to make love to women. It was great! Some of the stuff in there was just plain weird but the part where men are shown how to touch women (for instance, they pointed out that a lot of men aren't gentle enough), how to focus on foreplay more and getting women to build up to arousal was very factual IMO. Women generally take longer to get aroused and on average take about 20 min. to reach orgasm whereas men take about 2 min. BIG difference!

Like Dr. H. says in "His Needs/Her Needs" women need affection. When I feel loved and when my partner shows me love and affection, I am more responsive to sex.


TexasBlondie Single (Divorced--11 Years) 2 sons, 19 and 23
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FWIW,

I really think a great love making session takes more than even 20 minutes.

I just asked for the chance to show that to my ex-wife. But because I wasn't doing everything else, just the way she wanted it, that was a no-go.

Oh well, some lucky lady in the future will reap the benfits that XWW rejected.

T

Quote:

I was watching something the other night and it was very entertaining. It was about a class you could take from sex experts and the experts taught men how to make love to women. It was great! Some of the stuff in there was just plain weird but the part where men are shown how to touch women (for instance, they pointed out that a lot of men aren't gentle enough), how to focus on foreplay more and getting women to build up to arousal was very factual IMO. Women generally take longer to get aroused and on average take about 20 min. to reach orgasm whereas men take about 2 min. BIG difference!

Like Dr. H. says in "His Needs/Her Needs" women need affection. When I feel loved and when my partner shows me love and affection, I am more responsive to sex.



Last edited by Enlighted_Ex; 11/10/05 05:36 PM.
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I agree, I get that answer about porn-all men do it, and that's a lousy justification of hurting someone's feelings. It's rude to screw up a relationship to justify porn.

Nat

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Totally irrelevant to the thread but just wanted to say how wonderful is was to read the CORRECT use of a term for once, ie. 'I COULDN'T care less', instead of 'I COULD care less.' This is one of those intensely irritating Americanisms based on ignorance which have crept in of late - the other REALLY annoying one being the use of 'alternate' for 'alternative', ie, 'I had no alternate but to get divorced.'

How can people think, 'I could care less' is right? This would be like saying, 'I could give a damn', and is utterly wrong. But then we live in a world where knowledge of punctuation, spelling, grammar and the meaning of words is becoming increasingly rare.

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