I know that I will never force him into something that he didn't want to do. If that was the case I would have married him a long time ago. He is a very strong man and has very good reasons when I ask him why he is not ready. His dad just died 2 months ago, he wants to have alot of money saved up so that he can buy me my dream house.....things like that. I love him with all my heart and I do know that we will be together for ever and that we will do it when the time is right and he will be sure of that, I guess that's why I have him because he is the strong one.
<br>Thanks for being nice, I feel as if the other two replies I got were not very helpful, but trying to tell me I was crazy, I know my love is not crazy, just wondered if anyone out there knew where I was coming from.
<br>

John,
<p>Steve Harley (Dr. Harley's son) is the counselor at Marriage Builders. You can reach him at 888-639-1639 to make an appointment. You can also fill out an email/electronic form on this site: it's under 'counseling'.
<br>

Hi CJ,
<p>Thanks for the detailed reply. I can relate to what you shared about making yourself fall "in-love" with someone. When I am with this girl, I feel physically attracted, and a lot of "emotional" love for her. But I know that marriage is also about "commitment", and I'm not sure whether I can commit to her despite her character flaws (which of course, is subjective to my perspective). I'm not convinced that she has the mental stamina and character to raise children, so I guess she doesn't meet every single one of my needs. If I didn't want to have kids, then the decision to marry her becomes easier. In my experience, I've seen that it very difficult to change a person, esp. a person's character. So, it becomes a question of whether I can accept her for who she is.
<p>I'm glad to hear that you have grown to love your husband. That's probably what will keep your marriage going. I'm curious to know, did you feel any Romantic love for your husband before the Agapé love? You mentioned that it would be very hard for Agapé love to develop before Romantic love. However, you seemed to have overcome that obstacle.
<br>Care to comment about that?
<br>Am I totally and completely in-love with her? To be honest, no. She does not occupy my thoughts for much of the day, nor do I have a strong and overwhelming desire to be with her every minute of the day. But I do have a desire to spend time with her so that we can do things together, and go through different experiences together. Given a choice, I'd rather go hiking with her rather than talk on the phone with her.
<br>And yes, I must admit that I do wonder whether there may be a more ideal mate out there for me. But doesn't everyone entertain that thought at least once whenever they are dating? I also feel an internal urge to become married, and that may be clouding my judgement on whether I should commit to her or not.
<p>Thx.

Nat, you are correct, this is something that will never come again. Your child will never again have the benefit of both parents fully involved in his/her life on a daily basis. What did you do to make the relationship you always wanted happen? There are many things to do to "revisit" the passion of yesterday. I recommend reading "The Myth of Romantic Love", sorry i forget the author. It explains that the love your looking for is more infatuation than anything real. Real love is work, and as long as the two individuals are committed to each other anything is possible. I'm sorry if if I come across as kind of angry on this subject, but i am dealing with the probable break up of a 11 yr, 2 great kid marriage for the same weak, noncommitted, selfish reasons. Don't give in to this without pursuing it to your furthest. If nothing else, you OWE IT to your son. He deserves his whole family. My apologies, Mike J

Hi Al,
<br>I understand that internal urge to get married. It can be quite overwhelming at times.
<p>From my own personal experience, I don't believe we can make ourselves feel 'romantic' love for someone. The feelings I have for my husband are surface-level. He has never been in my heart. I thought marriage would change that. In some ways my compassion changed, but not really. I feel very selfish for having detailed "needs". I know what I want, yet I also know it can't be obtained.
<p>We've been through counseling. I believe that is surface-level conditioning. Yes, you may be able to temporarily change the behavior, but you can't change the person. The only solution is to know yourself well enough to be comfortable in being that person. In finding your ideal spouse, make sure they are being true to themselves also. Surface-level love is not fun. It is very lonely. I can put on the mask and play the part, while my heart grows weary from neglect.
<p>This Agape love that I feel for my husband is revolved in self-denial. To accept that my view is too particular, and therefore irrelevent. I love my husband for who he is. To realize that I can't change him. I have come to adapt my feelings in acceptance.
<p>I need to be strong. I don't have any other option.
<p>Al, what are your options? Let's say, hypothetically, you and your girlfriend get married. She tells you everything you want to hear about raising children. So, you dismiss this gut-feeling you have. You have children and start your family. You find that your assumptions are right. She doesn't have the mental stamina and her character is influencing your children. You accept this. You tell yourself she has a lot of great qualities. You try your best to make up for where she naturally lacks. You tactfully encourage her to be the best mother for your children. It may help for a few days. You have hope. You feel that you're changing her by instilling new habits to help her grow. You're happy because you feel that you've helped her (and your children) become a great mom. After years of repeated trys you've come to realize it was just a temporary fix. You can not change who she is. You end up suppressing this need. One day, several years down the road, you meet a woman who fits that "ideal mother" concept you have. (need #1) You take your children to the park, to give your wife a break. That "ideal mother" woman is there spending time with her children. You both have a seat on the park bench and talk. You both have so much in common. ( need #2) You start seeing this woman around town. You talk. Somedays you may grab a bite to eat because it just happens to be around lunch time and your children are hungry. You start adapting your schedule to be around this woman. You find that she goes jogging at a certain time every evening and you start to go jogging at the same time. (need #3) Out jogging one evening the moon and the breeze is just right. You both take a moment to enjoy the night. You notice how the moonlight catches the color in her eyes and she is looking back at you with the same intensity. You lean over and kiss her. You are absolutely electrified. You then become petrified because you realize that you are married, yet you've never experienced this kind of intensity in your life. You express your feelings to this woman, she feels the same. You' ve come to yet another crossroad. If you have enough willpower, you'll walk away. Vowing to yourself you'll never see her again. You focus all of your energy to your wife and family. Yet, this woman consumes your thoughts and dreams. You are then in the battle of your life. Once again, you suppress your feelings for your (now) wife. Now every little thing she does is magnified. Those little things become big things. You keep packing those feelings away. You keep telling yourself you are a good, moral man. One day you and your 'wife' get into an argument. On normal circumstances, you would talk it out. Yet you feel like you're about to explode. You tell your 'wife' that you need to get out. You jump in your car and take a drive to let off some steam. And, low and behold, you run into that "ideal mother" "ideal conversationalist" "ideal recreational companion" "ideal everything" woman. That woman you know so well. That woman you've been dreaming about. You start out by just talking. She just feels so 'right' to you. You feel like your home when she is around. You give her a hug and you never want to let go. You end up having an affair and it was just like you dreamnt, but better. (need #4) You are now faced with an enormous amount of guilt. You want to spend the rest of your life with this "ideal woman" by your side. You go back to your house and you begin to feel like a visitor in your own home. What do you do? Of course you love your 'wife', she's your wife. She is a good woman. You'd be a fool not to want to be with her. You couldn't bare living without your children. The guilt consumes you. You tell your wife about the affair. You assumed she would kick you out. Instead she gets violently ill from the pain you've caused her. She can't eat. She can't sleep. She vomits all day long. You feel like some kind of monster for doing this to her. You are now experiencing living h#ll. She delves into a deep depression. She can barely take care of herself, let alone the children. You can't leave her. You try even harder to make it work between you two. She gives you permission to leave her for this other woman. You can't bare to even think about leaving her. You see this other woman in passing from time to time around town. Your heart breaks. You stop by the florist to pick up flowers for your wife. You realize you can't live in the same town as that other woman. You move. Years pass. You still dream about this "ideal woman". Yet, this time you know she's out there. Yet, you have to accept it as just one moment in time.
<p>Your other option. Remain friends with this current girlfriend of yours. Yes it may hurt her now, but think of the pain you're saving her and yourself from. Make sure you instill the rule of honesty in your relationship. To your partner and to yourself.
<p>
<br>Dr. Harley is right when he says that affairs can happen to anyone. Especially when your "needs" aren't met. As his book "His Needs, Her Needs" mentions:
<p>'When it comes to meeting your basic needs, batting 800 is not good enough. Everyone must try to bat 1,000. If not, you will experience a void that will nag persistently and incessantly for fullfillment."
<p>I feel very passionate to express the importance of not giving up who you are to accept someone else. Those character qualities will not go away through the years.
<br>
<br>I believe that the key to finding that "ideal woman" is to self-actualize. Once you find her, you will know. And, you won't wonder if there is someone else out there, because you'll finally be home.
<p><p>[This message has been edited by CJ.]

Bruce,
<br>I apologize for my outburst, I am really responding to the consistent tone about this one topic. I know Im in a small group on this forum who see this problem as real but I hold this belief firmly. I then see you posting on every thread and getting glowing reviews from the W's here and my irritation over this issue got the best of me. Im sorry and I hope you have a good day.

Doug,
<p>Thanks, Doug. Actually that was K who said he'd used the phone counseling successfully while his wife wasn't involved much.
<br>K...if you're out there let us know how you did this thing, will you?
<p>

Hi Al,
<br>In response to your question. This Mature love is a feeling that I've formulated in reference to my husband. I've come to accept my husband for who he is and I have accepted who I am. I thought I was being someone better than I was when I married my husband. I just realized too late that it's better to be myself than to try to be someone I'm not.
<p>In reference to Bible passages helping me recently. I'm having a hard time understanding all this. I strongly believe that Jesus is the purest form of love. Jesus = Love. Jesus should be the center of my marriage. Or, you could say Love should be the center of my marriage. The closer my walk with Jesus became, the further apart I became from my husband. Jesus = truth. Truth should be the center of my marriage. I prayed so hard for wisdom that my four wisdom teeth popped through. I still pray for understanding and a lot of the Psalms are very therapeutic to me.
<p>To me, self-actualization in when you're on the road to acheiving your full potential. When you make use of the gifts given to you by God. It is when you make your dreams a reality.
<p>I wish there was a formula for love. Some type of magic potion or technique I could follow that would make me "feel" my husband in my heart. I just took it for granted that he had enough love for the both of us. How does one explain that? How can one person feel so much passion and infatuation for one person while the other isn't capaple of feeling the same intensity for them? Is it truly revolved around the need thing? I have a hard time believing that. It seems like my husband and I are the perfect compliment. He is a good friend. A lot of my weaknesses are his strengths. I believe love isn't tangable and it doesn't die. It may be neglected, yet it is retrievable - as with Dr. Harley's techniques. But, if the 'true feeling of love' isn't there, it can't be manufactured. Believe me, I tried. For the first six years of marriage, my husband and I rarely ever fought. We didn't have Dr. Harleys books at that time, but the techniques were basically the same. We never did anything without the consideration of the other. I referred to the love bank as our personal love cup. We would be very conscious when it started to get close to empty. Then we would go out of our way to plan for a special get-a-way. Before we went to bed at night we would tell eachother how much we love being married to one another. We also batted 100 % in filling eachothers needs. I enjoy being married. I think it's fun. And my husband is a great man, there is no one out there like him. So, why can't I completely love my husband? Is it fear? Could be, but I don't think so. I think a lot of it deals with what I considered to be my "ideal man" before we were married. I had formulated details in my mind of the type of man I wanted to marry. I married my husband because he was a good man and wanted me so intensely. I had men attracted to me before, but not to the point that they were interested in my mind as well as everything else. It felt good to make someone so happy. Someone I respected. He thought I was this super incredible person. I didn't think that way about myself, but I enjoyed being with a man that thought I was. I denied myself to become his fantasy. Where is the Love???
<p>I knew my heart was screaming during our engagement. I would fabricate arguments. I would try to explain to him my needs and he would rationalize my out of them. (As a matter of fact, he still does that)
<p>You're right. You can't know how your girlfriend will be when you're married. Maybe she'll take you by surprise and be wonderful, maybe not. When you remove all of the elements of what a relationship should or shouldn't be, and all you are left with is two souls - are you dancing?
<p>
<p>Al, thank you for mentioning the Bible. After I wrote this I re-read your post. You asked me to read Galations.... I have been neglecting our Lord because I've been feeling so unworthy and not capable of love, love for my husband. That is so wrong. As I'm writing this I can feel the tears rolling down my face. I had forgotten that feeling of living by the Spirit. In the side writing in my Bible, it mention's the test of loving one another in reference to John 13:34-35. 'God measures love by obedience, not by warm feelings.'
<p>" So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature."
<br>Galations 5:16
<p>"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."
<br>Galations 5:22-23
<p>"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit."
<br>Galations 5:24-25
<p>Thank You Al, I needed that. ~C

Hello CJ,
<p>I'm pleasantly surprised, but glad to hear that you've read that part in Galatians.
<br>I've looked at the verses John 13:34-35, and in the comments (for my Bible), it says that "Love is simply more than warm feelings, it is an attitude that reveals itself in action."
<p>" But the Lord said to me, 'My Grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' " 2 Cor 12: 9
<p>CJ, I know and fully believe that deep down inside, you are worthy and capable of love. So, when you mentioned that you were feeling unworthy and not capable of love for your husband, surely you must know that your husband still loves you regardless of how worthy or unworthy you feel. Doesn't that give you a glimpse into God's Grace and perfect strength?
<br>I was driving the other day, fully burdened by my full time job, my struggle with my girlfriend, a part time job that I have started lately, and being involved in organizing a weekly Bible Study. I was falling behind in my projects at my full time job, stuck on some problem in my part time job, the Bible Study did not go well because of a lack of planning and preparation on my part, and I was stuggling about my situation with my girlfriend. The next day, I had to report something to my boss about the status of my project. I was nowhere near ready. As I drove to the beach, I was listening to the song "Sweet Mercies" (from the CD titled 'Passion'):
<br>
<br>It's our confession Lord,
<br>That we are weak.
<br>So very weak, but You are strong.
<p>And we've nothing Lord,
<br>To lay at Your feet.
<br>But we come to Your feet, and sing,
<br>'Help us along.'
<p>A broken heart and a contrite Spirit,
<br>You have yet to deny.
<br>Your heart of mercy beats with love's strong courage.
<br>Let the river flow,
<br>By Your Spirit now, Lord we cry,
<p>(*) Let Your mercies fall from Heaven,
<br> Sweet Mercies flow from Heaven,
<br> New mercies for the day,
<br> Shower them down Lord, as we pray.
<br> (*)
<p>As I listened to this song, it spoke so sharply and directly to my situation, that tears started to flow. Only when I fully realized my own weaknesses, and the futility of making it on my own strength did I then come to see how great and awesome God's strength is, and how loving His mercy truly is.
<p>CJ, I hope that you will hunger for God's love in your marriage. The weaknesses will naturally reveal itself, but so long as you persist for His Love in your marriage, you will be able to experience it. All of it; including the one you yearn for the most in your heart. That's what I believe will give you the strength.
<p>As we aspire to increase the Fruits of the Spirit in our lives, that will enable us to live up to the potential that you mentioned.
<br>The spirit of gentleness that I see in my girlfriend is very powerful (have you heard of the story about the duel between the sun and the rain? ). I do believe that all of the Fruits of the Spirit are very empowering. I have been pursuing those qualities for the past couple of years subconsciously (ie. in my prayers).
<br>Thx for posting the website in your other post.
<br>You know, I've thought about it the past couple of days, and have decided to remain just friends with my (soon to be ex-)girlfriend. What's made this such a tough struggle is that this girl is every man's dream: Christian, sweet, gentle, pretty. She sometimes makes me feel like I'm the centre of her life, and every time I have been with her, I can sense her desire to please me. The only time we ever argued was over some church issue, and even that was quickly resolved. When we went through Dr. Harley's basic emotional needs questionnare, she made herself vulnerable, but I also made myself vulnerable (for revealing our needs). But our awareness of each other's needs made us closer.
<br>Wouldn't I be nuts for not wanting to marry a girl like that?
<br>However, as I said before, she is not in my thoughts every day, and I do not have an overwhelming desire to spend every minute with her. When I observe her when she's frustrated, it gives me concern as to whether she has the mental stamina to raise children. I already know that I can't raise children on my own (perhaps a weakness on my part, but I feel I need the father/mother AND husband/wife teamwork aspect in raising children), so this is a serious sticking point with me. I haven't talked to her about this, but I'm not sure if talking about it will help the situation. Lately, I have the feeling that we're not on the same emotional or intelligence level. I don't think that she's dumb; she will be graduating with a Chemistry degree in April. It's the phone conversations that are not memorable.
<br>So, I feel now that with all things taken into consideration, it is better off that we remain friends.
<br>thank you for listening; this is really a long post!
<p>

Hi Al,
<br>You mentioned that love is an action. So, if I'm following Dr. Harley's advice, am I not practicing the action of love? I've noticed that when I'm around my husband, I am not in step with the Spirit. Galatians 5:26 - "Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other." When I'm with him, it is like I'm in a battle fighting my sinful nature. I'm either placing him on a pedestal by thinking he is this person above life, and envying his natural gifts. Or I'm thinking that I'm above him somehow. By assuming that I deserve someone different. I therefore feel very selfish and conceited. Other times I do tend to provoke him just to establish some kind of passion in our relationship, even though it is negative, it's the intensity that pierces me that I crave. In that sense I do feel worthless. Faltering in the eyes of God. If God brought us together, why would He want me to struggle so much in the greatest experience of all - Love. Is this God's way of bringing me closer to Him? Why does it hurt so bad? It's not that I want to hold onto my sinful nature, I just would like to ** feel ** the love for my husband. You mentioned that you hope that I hunger for God's love in my marriage - how do I do that?
<p>I understand how you feel in relation to your life and that song. Life is so difficult. There are so many times I feel like everything is falling apart. My hope is all but lost. Then, I look deep into the eyes of my children and I feel God's grace. God is all around us. In the early morning when the sun is starting to rise and the only sound to be heard are the birds chirping. I know we are not alone. The Spirit of Jesus penetrates our souls and rejuevenates us.
<p>Al, when I hear your story I feel, and have experienced, the stuggle you are going through. Part of you thinks that if you let your girlfriend go, you'll never meet another woman quite like her. You fear that when you walk away it will become the biggest mistake of your life. But the other part of you knows, in your heart, that she's not the one for you - and that makes you angry. Because, as a Christian, you feel like you shouldn't feel like that. At least that is how I felt when I married my husband. I do hope you find your peace. ~C
<p>(I have not heard the story about the duel between the sun and the rain. Could you share it?)
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<br>[This message has been edited by CJ.]<p>[This message has been edited by CJ.]

Mari,
<p>I'm mainly replying to you because I really empathize with your feeling of being scared. I'm scared myself. I'm not so sure I have anything useful to offer.
<br>Perhaps you should try another counselor. But from what you described that may not help right now. My immediate suggestion would be to see if there is a place near you that does a Retrouvaille weekend. Retrouvaille came out of the popular Marriage Encounter weekend, but it was designed for marriages that have more serious problems. Like alcoholism for one.
<br>Check out there homepage at www.retrouvaille.org. Your should be able to track down a phone number in your area to learn about the next weekend function. I understand that these affairs are highly successful in situations such as yours.
<br>And keep coming back to this forum. I'm sure others here will have some advice for you, or at least moral support. Take care.

Parizade, Miya
<p>Thanks for your compliments. Under ordinary circumstances it would make me feel good. Not that it makes me feel bad.
<br>But I feel so bad that my marriage is in the shape it's in that I don't feel anything like the guy you're complimenting. It's a sad thing to be able to give someone else good advice while your own case is damaged.
<br>I went to the bookstore tonight and picked up about $46.00 worth (3 books) of books on getting your relationship straight when only one mate is really making a contribution. I can see I've got my work cut out for me. I haven't had a kiss or hug since last Sunday and I'm running on empty.
<br>Sorry about the sob story but right now this is my only outlet. Thaks again and take care.

We have been married now for four months now, although we have lived together for four years. Our
<br>relationship is wonderful as long as there is not any conflict. I can't seem to communicate in a way
<br>that he understands me when we have a disagreement or a misunderstanding. I always feel, because of
<br>his actions and tone of voice at these times, that I am in the wrong. Where, the way I see it is neither
<br>one of us were in the wrong...I was just in the dark and didn't know what he had planned. What can I
<br>do? I've tried talking, but that just leads to silence and more anger from him and more frustration
<br>from me. And when I get angry I tend to cry easy, I slam doors...I never hit. I thought about writing,
<br>but don't know if that would convey my true feelings either. I need suggestions ASAP.
<br>