Bill,
<br>You are right about starting another thread. Seems to be the hot topic.
<br>My wife doesn't say she loves me either, unless its in response to my saying it. I guess I've become used to the fact that it's just something she doesn't say often. Never often enough for me. I'm glad to hear that you actually confronted the other man and it seems that you feel you have closure on that issue.
<p>Ken,
<br>I'm glad to hear that you had a great weekend. Definetly something to cherish. I am still harboring the thought of a possible affair only because of the way she doesn't feel for me. Does it make it easier for her eyes and heart to wander? She tells me she's not looking for anyone else but if someone new and exciting is before her, is she going to grab it? These are my thoughts, every day. I often go to the gym were she works to pick up our daughter while she is teaching class and they do know me. They are all very cool people, the ones that I've met. Maybe I'm being too paranoid.
<br>Take care
<br>Greg
<br>

My husband and I have been married for four years and it is the second marriage for both of us. We don't seem to argue over the typical things that twice married couples seem to argue over, instead it's basic issue such as whether we have a family pet or not. I grew up with a family dog, and I would like my children to have the same experience. But because he says "no" there is no discussing the issue. This really upsets me because my opinion to him is worthless. If I did get a family dog, I'm sure he would make life miserable. Also, he likes to hunt and I feel that it (hunting) shows a basic disregard for life. Not only does he hunt he is encouraging his twelve year old son to do the same. I have no objections to the hunting if it is for appropriate reasons. This issue has had us not talking for four days. Help!

Natasha,
<p>I think it will be hard for anyone to understand how you married this man if you knew you weren't attracted to him physically. Any man can tell if his wife doesn't care to have sex with or hug and kiss with him. Does he already notice this? What is his reaction?
<br>You say you pray that God will make him more attractive to you but often when we pray that way we have in the back of our minds how we want God to do this. You know, like magic. Rarely is it ever that way.
<br>I have prayed every day, concerning my own marital problems, that God will soften my wife's heart. He may do so but He will probably do so in such a way that will require me to go through some things that aren't comfortable. But when I pray I really want to see my wife walk in the door one day and simply act like a changed woman. God can do that of course. But most of the time He doesn't.
<br>It sounds to me like you might have to get some professional assistance on this one. If your husband doesn't already notice how you withhold yourself he is sure to before long. It will have to come out. I'd be honest with him about it. It may hurt him but if you just avoid giving yourself fully to him without good explanation (and even with good explanation)it is only going to add more and more frustration.
<br>Maybe you should consider the phone counseling the Harley's offer, because they seem to deal very well with this issue of physical attractiveness. No doubt some Chriatians would simply tell you to look on the heart alone and leave you feeling like you have no choice but to be consigned to a life in which appearance does not matter. this would only drive the problem underground and eventually it would appear again in an uglier form.
<br>But, perhaps you could be instrumental in helping your husband look the best he can with what God gave him. You already said you liked him from Internet interactions. You must have continued to like him after you met. If his inward part is attractive then you have more than what a lot of people have. Is it worth throwing away to get a better looking but perhaps immature man? Don't know. Just tossing out ideas.
<br>It does, however, sound like a really tough spot to be in. I sympathize and wish you the best in finding a worakable, godly solution.

Ken and Greg,
<br>I don't want to get into any specifics. That's why I left the infidelity board. But in my mind, as long as you and your wives see a problem, and are actively working on it, there will probably be less of a chance of "straying". Trust me, it is not a physical attraction that starts this. It comes from emotional needs that are not met (read Dr. Harley). In my case, communication. Give them all of the support they need. They will have no NEED to go elsewhere.
<p>Thanks Steph for the kind words. Since (as you read here) kind words come few and far between, its great hearing (reading) them. I hope all is going well for you and your H.
<br>

Hi. There was a little confusion on the Infidelity board, and I've been posting a lot there and a little on this board, so just wanted to mention there are two guys named Bruce here, both wronged spouses trying hard. We've both been having to reregister all the time (this system just thinks it's the same guy with the wrong password), so I just changed to "bruce." Thanks for all the posts in this long and good thread.

My roller coaster hit the bottom of the hill yesterday, again. My wife was unhappy and sad - not as bad as she has been. She heard "our song" Time in a bottle. It mad her feel sad. Typically, she would hear it and be so happy and sing along with it and think of us. She said it just made her feel sad that she didn't have those feelings. We didn't talk much yesterday - however, she just doesn't think she has the feelings for me, like I have for her. I asked her what her definition of love was. She couldn't give me an answer. I think love is caring for your spouse. Caring for their well being, happiness, contentment, safety, feelings etc etc etc. What do all of you think - What is the definition of love?
<p>I wrote my wife a long letter last night expressing my feelings and thoughts! I won't see her much today - she has school all day and goes back this evening. I hope she reads it at school (I stuck it in one of her books)and feels good about it. At times it is so hard not to throw in the towel. I tell her I will never leave - that my vows mean everything to me. If she wants to leave, I can't stop her but I think she will regret it. She even acknowledges the fact, she has thought about it. she said she fears she would leave, and two months later she would regret it and it would be to late.
<br>I hope it never comes to that. I told her you can't run from your problems - you need to face them.
<p>Steph,
<br>Thanks for your kind words. It feels great to hear them. I tell my wife I love her, and all she can say is I know. I long for any positive comforting words. Right now my wife is incapable of supplying them. Thanks again.
<p>Bill, Bruce, Greg,
<p>Thanks for all your words of encouragement! I don't think I could make it through the day with out this forum and your support. At times, I wish I could just curl up and die! I guess I am having a real bad time right now.
<p>Thanks again,
<p>Ken

Greg, I hate to say this, but my experience with co-workers is, they may be *wonderful* to you but they may still know if your wife is cheating on you. I considered all of my husband's co-workers my friends, and all of them knew that he was cheating on me for at least the last year of his two year affair. This is not to discourage you or to say this is what is happening to you, just a voice of experience offering a note of caution.

Greg,
<br>When we ask our wives questions like "why don't you say you love me?", we are asking them to hurt us. They are not ready to say things like that. They are confused and need time to sort their life out. We have to be satisfied that we have more than a fighting chance with them because we are with them and showing them our love. My wife will not LET me say I love her on the phone, because it puts too much pressure on her to reply to me in kind. I told her that I am going to do in anyway, with no expectations of a reply.
<br>I find that writing letters to myself helps a lot. Writing to my wife does nothing, because I get nothing in return. I have started a journal of my daily events, and my feelings about them. (Buy a big book) Re-reading them helps me sort things out, sometimes.
<br>And make sure you take care of yourself. Go do things and get active. Your kids and wife need you. Its so easy to just stop everything. Just start with one thing. Go bowling or just take a walk in a park.
<p>

I've reported enough negatives so I want to make sure I include the positives. Yesterday evening my wife did some of the "little things" that mean so much to me and that I've missed. She spent time having conversation with me in a way she hasn't don't in ages. She also sat next to me on the arm of the chair and just scratched my neck. Small things but so meaningful. Made me feel great. So, while I'm feeling great, and knowing that tomorrow may be different, I just wanted to say so. I also wanted to say it in hopes that anyone else having bad days right now might get a note of encouragement. I might need the same again.

BILL---
<p>You hit the nail on the head for me....if my husband would kiss me, hug me or tell me he loves me WITHOUT expectations of me returning that I'd fell SO much better about the situation. He can be busy all evening with stuff and not be willing to give me the time of day. Then when he's ready he just EXPECTS me to drop what I am doing and meet his needs. It drives me nuts. He'd sit across the room and say "come here, I want a hug..".rather than coming to me and gently giving affection. ANd one of his things to say is---Who's your favorite guy?? He always askes this when I'm already a bit stand offish---do you men relate to this, or is this a situation unique to my marraige?
<p>Best wishes to all of you. Like Steph said, it is nice to see men taking aobut their feelings!

I can relate to the postings in this thread. I too am in a position where my wife states that she no longer love me and is confused about what to do. I love her more than I could ever state with words here, and want to work things out. However, I also realize that we are in a situation that is threatening our whole family (We have two kids under 7). I certainly have made mistakes and even taken her love for granted at times, and this had led us to this place. I am trying to work things out, but I get so frustrated sometimes, feel like everything I do works against me. I am trying to court her over again, but she feels she will never feel that way again and that she just had to live with a marriage which will never fulfill her dreams, or what we used to have. I try to encourage her that we can try and thing can be better, but unfortunately I get frustrated and I think I hurt more than I help. I feel very low, unable to focus on everything that is going on. I know what I want, but don't know how to get it. And this from a man most people would consider a self-starter and go-getter. We have been struggling with this for five months now, I just don't know what to do anymore. She says she has to decide what to do, and that I cannot help her. I realize she has to decide, but for four months, all of our conversations revolve around me trying to get her to try, or at least say she will, and her telling me it is no use. I get very emotional because she doubts my feelings and makes me feel so much like a failure. I dont really think she is delibrately trying to hurt me, but when we talk it comes across that way sometimes. I appreciate the I hear in the supporting words in this thread, and that it seems like I am not alone. Thanks.

Matt, you case sounds so much like mine. I decided yesterday to stop posting unless i can say something significant. The situation with my wife keeps going up and down. It is ripping my guts out emotionally.
<br>After a few days in which we seemed to be making some progress my wife goes back to cold behavior. It just made me so sad inside that I just sat. My wife came over to talk to me. She seemed concerned, knew it was her behavior that caused it. yet she offered no comfort. She said that she was really sorry to keep taking me through this. I told her that we need to get some help because there was no way I could continue to do the duties required of me the proper way (work, kids, etc.) while I was having this emotional scab stripped off so often. She puzzled me because she's an intelligent woman and is very capable of getting things done when she wants to. So, I wondered, why not in this case? I'm more willing than a dog jumping for a biscuit, and sometimes that's how I feel, too.
<br>I must have finally pressed her to honesty because she simply said she wasn't sure she wanted to fix it. This is so devastating. There are marriages that have been in far, far worse shape than mine that have been repaired, yet I hear this. The feeling of utter helplessness, grasping, loss of words is just so debilitating. I told her that right now she has lost the old feelings but they can be regained through a process of correction. I told her I am ready to make any sacrifice, that I want my kids to have both parents, that I need her, etc. By this time I cannot stop the tears from streaming. There is an expression of pain on her face like a battle is taking place within.
<br>Like yourself I have neglected my wife in important areas while I pursued making a living. It wasn't intentional. Unlike yourself I have never been too much of a self-starter or go-getter, though I've gotten better in those areas. I've always been full of insecurities. I don't know why I was so blind to what was happening. All I know is that if I had had any idea that it was as deep and trenchant as I now know I would have dropped everything to fix it before now.
<br>For the life of me this is an aspect of the female personality that I simply do not comprehend. To me it seems that she is ready to just cast off a family without a truly good reason. This is maddening. Yet, obviously, to her it must appear different.
<br>Last night we made love but it hurt to have her so close and know her feelings. I just hugged her and told her that I loved her more than my life. I asked her if she thought there was any hope. Maybe, was her reply. She has trouble looking into my eyes.
<br>More than anything I wish I understood this female characteristic in which they can shut completely down emotionally and seem to be impervious to the most honest and genuine efforts a man can offer. Last night I went in my son's room while they slept. I knelt by the bed and held the sleeping hand of my 7 year old. I could not stop crying for a good half hour.
<br>Right now I have no answers, but I am resolved to do whatever I can to regain my wife's love and confidence. I don't know what all that will entail, I just know I'm going to try my best. All of us in this forum want answers and seem to find few. Uncertainty seems to be our companion every day. It's the hardest thing I've ever faced. Perhaps knowing that others are in the same boat or worse is the only comfort we can presently draw, knowing that we aren't some abnormal creatures who've screwed up above and beyond what anyone has ever done.
<br>At this point taking one day at a time is the best I can do. The future is uncertain, the past a track record of failures. For me the only anchor I have is the memorization of the 25th Psalm, which I recite in my mind a thousand times a day. I hope you are finding way to maintain as well.
<br>

Bruce, I'll try to answer your question..the one about why women can shut down emotionally, when you are being honest etc....Here's only my thoguhts on the subject, I have no idea if it relates to your marraige, but your wife seems to be going thru something similiar to me. I FEEL that my husband wants evertyhing to be better just so that it is fixed. I don't feel that he really wants to get to know and fulfill my problems/desires. He just wants for it to go away. Therefore, when he acts interested I suppose I am guarded and don't feel as though he REALLY wants to talk, he just wants assurance that everything is OK again. In my case I know this to be true because my husband doesn't have time for me. He has time to do many other things, but to spend a quite evening with just me and no TV, books, trip would just about kill him. (well, drive him nuts) But I should also mention---since I feel as though I have been posting a lot lately---that I FEEL that my husband has an anxiety problem--one that needs medication. He probably always has, but of course it has its ups and downs. But since I am now on Porzac and know how much things can h elp, I see that he'd really be helped. But expecially now, he WILL NOT even consider a drug. ANyway. I will be thinking about your situation and hope that somehow we can get our relationships back on track. I should also mention that although I am not IN LOVE with my husband now, that I WISH I was. I wish we had the initmacy and fun and shared moments we used to have. I think a marraige takes a lot of work. A LONG time ago after telling my husband thta I wanted affection, romance and him not "getting it" I bluntly said. I just want you to kiss my butt sometimes. That turned him off, and he still holds that against me and our relationship. I can't tell you how many time he has said the he "doesn't kiss anyone's butt". I know I was being selfish, but it hurts that our relationship wasn't important enough to him. Gosh---I'm crying as I type---and it actually feels good, I haven't been this emothional about my marraige in over a year!---Thanx for listening.....

Bruce and Matt,
<p>I'm not going to talk for all women but I do agree with GBM that women do become guarded with their emotions. I think as is with my H that once I have told him the problem he just thinks that things will get back to normal. The problem is that I am now very emotionally guarded. I am not going to hurt like that again. In this way I tend to push him away for fear of being open to the hurt. In my case it took six years to get to this point. You can't expect something like that to correct itself just because my H says he will change and be different. It will take time for me to believe that things are better. Just don't give up on your wifes. Keep showing and doing the little things that show them you love them. Like I said earlier in a post to Bill. Today my husband got the kids ready this morning (something he's never done before). I liked this more than flowers or jewelry. Find what your wife needs and do it for her. I'm sure you are already doing most of this but keep it up. These little things will eventually add up. My thoughts and prayers are with you. Hang in there
<p>Steph

GBM, Steph. Do I hear you saying that my wife may be hurt to the point where she finds it very difficult to trust me when I tell her how much I intend to be different in the future? That perhaps she thinks that if the situation calms down that I will just go back to my old ways? I hope this is actually the case, because if so then I know the only way to change it is with consistent behavior improvement on my part. And that I'm ready to do.
<br>A co-worker of mine to whom I've been speaking about this (he's been through his own marital problems)thinks I've been acting way too needy. I'm inclined to agree but just haven't understood what course of action I should take. But if a program of, consistent actions that demonstrate my sincerity will do the job over the long haul then I'm ready.
<br>I am ready to revamp how we do everything and learn to co-operate with her on the things that make her happy. I'm just not sure she believes that.
<br>When I came home tonight I determined not to act needy. My wife was wearing a dress I loke a lot. I walked up to her, put my arms around her and placed her arms around my neck. As I hugged her I told her she was wearing my favorite dress. I told her to "get used to these hugs because, mark my words,the time will soon come when you will be enjoying hugging under your own power the man who is going to see to it that you feel better about this marriage than you ever thought you would."
<br>At any rate I appreciate the insights you've both provided. I intend to ask my wife a few questions tonight to see if the feedback I get corresponds to what you've told me. I'll let you know.
<br>By the way, Steph, glad you had a good day.
<br>And GBM, I understand about telling your husband to kiss your butt. Sometimes it just comes out after so much exasperation.

Steph,
<br>I can understand what you mean by doing the little things that mean so much. When I learned of my wife's feelings and the reasons for her innitial resentment, I became a changed man. Doing all the little things that I've never done before, like getting our daughter ready, preparing dinner for us, etc... Things that truely put smiles on her face, which is the world to me. But now after a year of total unconditional love and by that I mean not expecting anything in return, things are basically the same. The resentment has gone but she still wants to feel a bit of ultimate independance or trial seperation.
<br>I don't want to discourage anyone from satisfying your spouses needs unconditionally to show them how much you love them, in fact, I will continue to do so because it feels right and gives me a feeling of satisfaction and self-cofidence knowing that I'm putting 200% into this marriage. But I'm also beginning to get frustrated to a point where its pushing my wife farther from me. I think she feels pressure to meet my needs and her desire to do so is just not there. Thats why I'm hoping that this trial seperation will bring some sort of fear of losing me forever. I don't want to leave. I'm scared to death. What will I do if she wants it to be permanent? How will I react? Should I even be thinking that far ahead? I used to feel that if I stayed, I could still help the situation somehow. That every day I could show her how much I love her. Now I feel that my only option left is to go and hope that she realizes what she had all along. I feel like I'm gambling with my life.
<br> Somebody please help me to gain some strength.
<p>Thanks,
<br>Greg

Greg,
<p>I think you are right. If you have been doing what you say for a year then it may be time to force her hand. It will be hard. You need to find someone or something that can give you the strength. Come here and just say I need help. We here will always be here for you. One thing I have lived by and someone else in this forum has mentioned it. You need to ask yourself "Are you better off with or without her?" It's not an easy question to answer. Someone told me once that I may be going through this just to make me strong for when the time comes to move on. If I moved on now I would just get stuck into the same trap. But if I stick it out it may last, or it may not but I would be a stronger person for it. Take care of yourself Greg and even if it sounds and feels selfish you do need to worry about yourself too. Good Luck
<p>Steph

Bruce,
<p>I wish it was that easy. I said I wouldn't speak for all women and I won't. This is what I would like and need and want. I do know women though that take things like this and just throw it right back at the man as him being too needy and spineless. I will say that I think there is hope for you. If you do indeed keep doing all these things she may start to soften and see that you mean it. Of course I've been sticking it out for six years and just now seeing hope. My prayers are with you.
<br>Steph

I thank everyone for postngs to this board that help me to see that I am not alone, and that offer me some encouragement for what I am trying to do.
<p>Our relationship is definately a roller-coaster. One day we can be going out to look at new houses to buy, and then the next she is asking me to move out. I am trying my best to be consistent and supportive, and loving. She says that when I send her flowers, or show that I care, that she thinks it is sweet, and that it makes her smile. But on the other hand, she says that shen she is in my presence, she feels not good enough and like a piece of dirt. I certainly do not treat her this way, and have never told her anything expect that she is beautiful and that i love her. I am basically a very affectionate person at heart, and have always told her these things more times than even she wanted to hear them sometimes. Someone made a post about using the words I love yo so much that they have cheapened the meaning. Maybe that is one of the things going on. My wife has always been fiercely independant, and has always had no problem in telling me that she doesnt need me, but always said she stayed because she loved me. Now I think, because some of my actions caused her so much pain, she realized that she was a little more dependant than she thought. I dont want her to be dependant, and I think we are inter-dependant as I need her as much as she needs me. I told her the other night that I dont want her to need me, I want her to want me. I dont want her to stay, long-term, because her standard of living will be better than on her own. And I dont want her to stay because of the kids. I do, however, use these as reasons to try and regain what she felt. I feel bad, like I am threatening her somehow, but she has been completely unwilling to even consider any possibility other than the relationship being over. She would hve liked for us to live under the same roof as friends and put on a show for the kids, but it would only be a matter of time before they caught on. She has now agreed, and I hope it will hold, to start counselling together. But I could only get this agreement by promising that after a reasonable period of time, which we determine together, if she cannot see any improvement in her feelings, than I will move out and "cry elsewhere". I hope that it will make a difference.

To all,
<p>We are all in so much pain. Sometimes I think I can't stand it anymore. However, there are times where I come to grips with things. I realize, and we all should take comfort in knowing we are doing our best! The hard part is we no longer can look to the future - we have to live day to day with the constant fear that today is the day my marriage will end.
<p>One thing me and my wife can do is talk openly. It is very painful, but I would rather know what is going on in her head. I live for the cahnce my wife will say she loves me. However, she now says she doesn't love me and doesn't feel like we will grow old together. This is hard to deal with! At times, I feel like I would rather be dead. I still don't now this happened - we had a great marriage (I know she felt that way too). She wakes up one day and wishes she was twenty again. She wishes she could go out on dates. She wishes she could sleep with other people. She told me yesterday, it my be better if we split up - that way she wouldn't have to hurt me anymore. However, after her therapy, she said the therapist told her divorce wouldn't be a good thing right now until she found out the underlying causes of this problem. Do we have any hope??? I keep asking her that. All she can say is - if we didn't have a little chance she would have already of left.
<p>Greg,
<br>You might be right to seperate. I thought I would never say that. However, I wonder if they were by themselves for awhile - they would realize they really do need us. It would hurt because - the thought of not being with my kids everyday just kills me inside. I told my wife that I won't leave - if she wants she can go. Why must you leave Greg? She is the one pushing for a separation.
<p>I have learned - you can only do so much. You can't make her love you. You said it yourself - she needs to come to the realization that she loves you. I know that is a helpless feeling.
<p>I know this can't help, I wish you good luck and peace of mind.
<br>