Yes, all of this is very confusing; if was cut and dry things would be solved by now and we wouldn't be turning to each other for help/support.
<br>Greg, I've been thinking about your question - my answer is yes and no - No - I haven't put myself in situations to find the intimacy I've been missing. It caught me off guard when I started having intimate feelings for my friend. We just started spending more and more time together, and it just kept getting easier to be with him rather than my H. This was my wake up call. I didn't go out looking for him (my friend), I wasn't interested in finding intimacy; actually I didn't even realize how much I missed it until these feelings were unburried. Does that make sense. I'll be honest and say that yes I do now crave those feelings; but I hope that they can be rekindled with my H. When I went out with the girls to a couple of bars last weekend; I was not scanning the area for somebody new. That doesn't interest me at all.
<br>I can imagine how you must over analyze every move we make; I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow when I go to bed at night either. I feel for you guys, it makes me feel guilty for feeling the way I do as I'm sure my H feels the same way.
<br>Bye for now; keep your chins up. Thanks for being here!

To Ken (and others too) you mentioned a while back that your wife may want to talk with me, I started a new thread hoping to get some of your spouses on line. I would love to talk to someone on my side of the fence who can really relate to how I'm feeling. Maybe we can help each other solve some of these issues.
<br>Bill hang in there, your heart is in the right place. Sounds like your wife, like me, isn't sure how to please herself anymore because we've working on pleasing everyone else for so long.
<br>Thinking of you,
<br>Thanks,
<br>Nat.

My wife told me last night she isn't going to therapy anymore. She doesn't believe therapy can work for her. I was a little disappointed. I was hoping therapy would "solve" something. She went to therapy because I wanted her to. She never thought it would help her! She knows she can't turn back the hands of time and be twenty again! Her struggle is to learn to deal with the decisions she has made in her life. She knows and wants to take control of her life. One of her first steps is to tell me she doesn't want to go to therapy. I respect her for her convictions. One of the things I find interesting about my wife is she is very complex! She is extremely stubborn! But, I like her decisiveness.
<br>I hope she made the right decision - but ultimately it is her decision.
<p>My wife wants passionate love. She defines this as the love where you always want to be with this person, and you can't keep your hands off them. I think that is the feeling you have when you first meet. Is that love or infatuation? Is it possible to have that type of love after 11 years? Does familiarity hinder all chances of a "firey" relationship? I would love to "rekindle" our relationship. I would love to take our relationship to another level. Sometimes, I wonder why we place so much emphasis on defining our feelings. I find the definition of feelings important, because it would somehow make me feel better knowing she felt special about me.
<p>All we all can do is take one day at a time! I think my wife struggle is far from over. However, I think she is feeling better! I think she has hope things can get better.
<p>I plan on trying to court my wife all over again. I am not the most romantic person in the world. One of my obstacles is I am very predicatable! However, I love my wife so I will find a way to so her how much!!
<p>Any comments or answers to my questions would be appreciated.
<p>Thanks, Ken

Kenw,
<br>In response to your question, "Is it possible to have that kind of love after 11 years?"
<br>I say not only is it possible, I believe that's the way it's really meant to be.
<br>Before I was ever married I used to read things like Penthouse Forum magazine. All this sort of material had an underlying thread that, as far as sexual and romatic love is concerned, familiarity breads contempt. it's been my experience that this is a flat out lie.
<br>Of course there are enough people who feel that such a view is on target and they are living proof. But I think that is because they live lives of false expectations.
<br>In the first six months of marriage we couldn't keep our hands off each other. Now we're older. We have kids, bills and other things to drain our energies. Fortunately my wife tries to stay in shape, as do I and that helps because physical attractiveness does play a part.
<br>I only had one sexual relationship before i married my wife, and that's no testimony to any purity on my part. Now, after almost 20 years,I am so intensely attracted to my wife that I can't describe it. For me now the thought of simply "having sex" is an inferior choice. I truly want to make love every time we have a chance. If there is anything I hate it is to feel that I have to rush the thing for any reason. I want it to take time. More than just enjoying the physical ecstasy of the moment, which I do, I bask in her closeness. The sexual experience itself is magnified because of who she is, because of the experiences we've shared. To have her hold my hand in public or private, or slip her arm around my waist feels like an immense privilege and it warms me inside.
<br>I guess all this has been a round about way of saying that in my experience familiarity has bred greater and more intense love and appreciation and that the fire of passion I feel for her not only has more intensity but it has more depth.
<br>Now, if we can simply overcome our present problems it will really be great.
<br>

My imagination is getting the best of me!
<br>My wife and I have been doing really well for the last week. There has been some signs of affection and she has truely been an angel to me. But today I called her at home from work and she wasn't home - no big deal. I called again about 4 hrs later and she was home. She told me that she went to the book store and after walked over to the local coffee shop with our 3 yr old daughter - no big deal. Then she tells me that while she was there, so and so(her boss)from her gym showed up. He just happened to be a couple of stores down and decided to get some coffee also. He was with his son, same age as my daughter. So they had coffee together - BIG DEAL(to me).
<br>I think she knows that she had to tell me about it because my daughter will say something.
<br>I have asked her before if she was interested in anyone at the gym and she told me no. That it's not something she thinks about. But abviously I am. I want to believe her, that this meeting was just coincidence and that there is nothing going on. But knowing how she feels about me makes me wonder. It's as though right now I can't even think about how good things have been lately, just wether or not she is seeing someone behind my back. If she is telling me the truth, I will only drive her farther from me if I push the issue. I'm choosing to not say anything about it.
<br>If she's keeping the truth from me, I will just have to deal with it some other time. She has deceived me in the past. But I need to show her that she is trustworthy if we are to mend our marriage.
<br>How can I turn off my imagination?
<br>To stop making something out of nothing?
<br>Thanks for listening to what I'm going through at this moment.
<br>I'm not expecting answers, just an ear.
<br>Greg
<br>

Like Greg I'm not expecting answers, just an ear. Today I got home from work first and began to clean up. I was sweeping dirt off the porch when my wife pulled up. She walked past me without so much as a touch, but she managed a forced smile. Please, I thought, not right before the weekend.
<br>She goes straight to the computer. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but is a simple "hello" too much to ask, even for husbands that have screwed up?
<br>I try to give it time but it is clear she intends to stay there. I tell her that I'm on the verge of disabling the thing. A few minutes later she comes in the living room, head lowered as if thinking, telling me that would be a mistake. I said I didn't care because I should come before a damn machine, and I'm tired of being insulted in that manner. Am I doing the wrong thing? I'm sure I am.
<br>She now goes into the familiar refrain of how she's not sure how long she can hold out. I'm sick of hearing this. She doesn't try to move towards resolution, but she's tired. I'm in no mood to be understanding. She goes for a ride.
<br>While she's gone I call my sister in Ohio who has just gone through a split with her husband, and it really was his fault. I have to talk to somebody because I'm about to go nuts. She asks if we're coming up for Thanksgiving and I tell her it's uncertain because...and I spill the story.
<br>She tells me not to press, to suck it up and take all the hits because after this many years the emotional repair will definitely take time if it happens at all. It was good talking to her, good to tell someone finally.
<br>My wife comes home, gets back on the computer. I go in the bedroom and take a nap until about 10:30pm. When I come out she's on the couch and the boys are looking at the Lost in Space video.
<br>I check my e-mail then go sit on the front steps for a while. At 11pm I tell the boys to go to bed. As soon as they do my wife follows them. I ask if I have to spend the whole day and night alone, she says she's not staying up this late, even though she generally does on Friday's.
<br>I tell you I am so frustrated I wish somebody would try to mug me because it would surely be their last day alive. I threw a can of aresol spray against the stove and sat alone on the couch. Right now I hate my wife. My sister told me that I should treat it like an illness, because in a sense she said it is - an emotional one.
<br>Everything she told me was right. I know what I should do. But right now I just don't care. Right now I just feel like saying to hell with the whole thing. This all shows that I'm still self centered to some degree, still thinking about myself. But I really don't know what else to do. These ups and downs are taking a major toll on my mind. Tomorrow I hope I will be able to come here and write about how I've managed to get a grip. But for now I feel nothing but anger.

Greg, I'm not sure how to turn off the imagination. I know that when I was in the depths of depression that's when mine went wild. Good luck...
<br>Bruce, I hope you are peacefully sleeping now. Sounds like a hard night. Try a safe way to get all that energy out---like running or exercising. Hope tomorrow is a better day for you.

Greg,
<br>I know the pain you're feeling. Trusting your wife is required to have a meaningful relationship. I think you did the right thing - by not confronting your wife! You would have probably "pushed" her away. You have to realize you have no control over your wifes actions. All you can do is show her how much you love and support her. I pray she will see how much she loves you! By focusing in on the thought she might be having an affair does no good. What would you do with this information? I think you should focus on the fact she would be lucky to be with you! I know its easier said than done!
<p>Bruce,
<br>I know how hard you are struggling with this situation. It is especially hard, when at times things are "normal" then revert back to the negative side of things. I know how this feels. I have been on this roller coaster ride, too. I have made love to my wife - and days later she tell me she doesn't have the same feelings for me! It is very hard to deal with these emotions!
<br>However, we have no choice we are in a fight to save our marriage. We are in a fight because we love these women. You must get your strength back - You need to continue to fight for the wife! I know you are not willing to give up! You have invested to much into this battle. Think of the times you have felt good - focus on those to give you strength.
<p>I had a great weekend! friday, we had a family dinner together. Later, my wife and I, made passionate love. It felt so good!
<p>Saturday, afternoon she told me the words - I have longed for -- I love you! Saturday evening, she went out with her sister-in-law to the bar! They had a great time dancing etc. She came home and told me how happy she had me to come home to -- that she wouldn't want to be a part of the single scene. Sunday, was great also!
<p>However, today she went to the gym and she said she her mind started racing again. She didn't really open up to me!
<p>I called her when I got to work. She told me it scares her! Because she starts thinking things, and she has no control over them. She said a lot of them are unrelated to anything. However, she started thinking about being "free". She said she started thinking about men she had seen at the bar Saturday. She thought about being on dates with them etc. It scares her! She wonders if she is going crazy! She told me she loves me! It just scares her to have these things enter her brain! Does anyone think it is possible she needs some kind of medication (antidepressant or anti anxiety)?
<p>Friday, she called her therapist- to cancel her sessions. She doesn't believe therapy can work. However, the therapist talked her into coming back one more time! Can regular therapy help her? Is it chemical?
<p>Any suggestions??
<p>
<br>Ken

Ken, i don't know if this helps you, but before I started taking porzac I didn't have enough self worth to think that anyone else would be interested in me. If I would have gone to a bar I would have been depressed that I wasn't worthy of anyone...but I suppose she could be depressed and still have these thoughts---I never did. I think almost EVERYONE should go to therapy . I wish I coud to afford to now, it just keeps things in perspective to have a third party evaluate things. Going to a therapist doesn't mean you are crazy---it keep you from GOING CRAZY. Good luck

Kenw,
<br>God, Ken. This has got to be tough. To hear her say those words after all this time only to have her talking about thinking of dating other guys.
<br>It sounds to me like you have pretty well, through your patient love, proven to her that you are about the best thing in her life as far as what she really needs.
<p>It is said that when a guy goes through mid-life crisis that he'll start doing things to prove to himself that he's still young, like go out an buy a flashy car. If so we know that what he's really doing is exhibiting immaturity. He needs to accept the fact that he is no longer 25 and that that's not a bad thing at all. He needs to be satisfied with the things that come with being 40, 45 or whatever, which are every bit as worthwhile as what he enjoyed at 25, probably even more so. He has something to resolve in himself if he is to get that monkey off him.
<p>Sounds like your wife has something to resolve in herself. Sounds like you have proven your worth and stability to her, but these unresolved immaturities in her are preventing her from fully embracing it. What it will take to do that I cannot say. I don't know if medication should be a part of it. But it sounds like it's been identified, at least in general, and if it's identifyable it's treatable.
<br>Here's wishing you'll win the rest of a battle in which you've been pretty successful so far.

Bruce,
<br>

Bruce,
<br>Thanks for your words! I know she loves me! What she is going through is a mid-life crisis! However, it is a little easier for me now - as I know she really does love me! She knows she can't be twenty again! However, she doesn't know how to put these feelings of - not being young and free behind her! She was happy all weekend - boom - she starts having these feelings! I am glad she can talk about this with me! It hurts knowing she has some of these feelings, but I know she loves me. This keeps me by her side!
<p>She knows she has to deal with this! She told me- she knows how lucky she is to have me! However, these thoughts keep creeping into her head! I keep hoping for continued improvement!
<p>Thanks for your help!
<p>Anyone else have any feedback?
<br>
<br>How are you doing today Bruce?
<p>Ken

Ken,
<br>I can see your in your words! I'm so happy for you. You definetly deserve this happiness. I hope that things will progress at a different level now. Glad to see someone is seeing that light at the end of the tunnel. Hang in there Bud!
<p>Bruce,
<br>I can relate to your feelings of neglect and what seems as being ignored. My opinion(2 cents), is maybe try the opposite approach. Don't react to her lack of action. Don't expect anything from her. If we have silent expectations on our partners and they are not met, we become angry or frustrated. Silent expectations are expectations we put on our partners to act or react in a way we feel they should in any given situation. Yet they have no idea of what we expect of them. If it is possible to eliminate these expectations from our relationships, then maybe it can eliminate some of the anger and resentment. If it's important to you, tell her what you expect from her or would like to expect. If she can't do what you want then at least you know and wont be frustrated when it doesn't happen.
<br> This is something I learned in counseling. It does work - for me.
<br>I'm only throwing it on the table.
<br>I hope that things go better for you.
<br>Keep fighting, dont give up!
<br>Greg
<p>[This message has been edited by Greg.]<p>[This message has been edited by Greg.]

Greg,
<p>It's true what you say about silent expectations. The fact is that I have explained this to her as best I know how.She has told me that I should not expect her to be "up under" me and that that isn't her personality anyway.
<br>I have told her that I expect no such thing. I don't expect her to be hovering over me proving her love at every opportunity. I have told her that just small things here and there like a quick hug, a peck on the cheek, a squeeze of the hand, these things are tokens of love. They are acknowledgements that, yes, I'm conscious of you as my husband or wife.
<br>Sometimes in the morning as we got ready to go to work she used to walk sleepily into the kitchen while I was making coffe or something and just slip her arms around me and give me a big hug. She never does that now.
<br>It mystifies me that she will not deny me sex. I get that fairly regularly and it's always great. But after that there are not many acknowledgements in between.
<br>As I say I have explained these things on a number of occasions, often to the point of where she will say that what I'm saying is reasonable and understandable. Yet she simply takes it no farther.
<br>Last night when we were talking before she got up and left she explained to me that years ago she placed a very high value on feeling of love for her spouse and getting them in return. But now she says, even though that is important, she says that she now feels that other things must be added. I know she was refering to things like responsibility, consideration, maturity, etc. I told her that I understood that and in fact agreed with it. I know that she cannot love me if I will not display these other qualities, nor do I expect her to. But ever since we got all this stuff out in the open I have been doing everything I know how to do to change the picture. She has even told me that she can see that I'm trying very hard.
<br>Yet we hit this invisible wall. Personally I think she knows how it seems to me. She's just way to smart a lady not to. But I think there's something she has to resolve inside, and that, until she does, the outward appearance is going to be what it now is. I just have to get through it psychologically intact.
<br>We are set to go out of town this week end, just the two of us. I am looking forward to this and future times alone providing something of a thaw on such behavior.

Greg,
<p>It's true what you say about silent expectations. The fact is that I have explained this to her as best I know how.She has told me that I should not expect her to be "up under" me and that that isn't her personality anyway.
<br>I have told her that I expect no such thing. I don't expect her to be hovering over me proving her love at every opportunity. I have told her that just small things here and there like a quick hug, a peck on the cheek, a squeeze of the hand, these things are tokens of love. They are acknowledgements that, yes, I'm conscious of you as my husband or wife.
<br>Sometimes in the morning as we got ready to go to work she used to walk sleepily into the kitchen while I was making coffe or something and just slip her arms around me and give me a big hug. She never does that now.
<br>It mystifies me that she will not deny me sex. I get that fairly regularly and it's always great. But after that there are not many acknowledgements in between.
<br>As I say I have explained these things on a number of occasions, often to the point of where she will say that what I'm saying is reasonable and understandable. Yet she simply takes it no farther.
<br>Last night when we were talking before she got up and left she explained to me that years ago she placed a very high value on feeling of love for her spouse and getting them in return. But now she says, even though that is important, she says that she now feels that other things must be added. I know she was refering to things like responsibility, consideration, maturity, etc. I told her that I understood that and in fact agreed with it. I know that she cannot love me if I will not display these other qualities, nor do I expect her to. But ever since we got all this stuff out in the open I have been doing everything I know how to do to change the picture. She has even told me that she can see that I'm trying very hard.
<br>Yet we hit this invisible wall. Personally I think she knows how it seems to me. She's just way too smart a lady not to. But I think there's something she has to resolve inside, and that, until she does, the outward appearance is going to be what it now is. I just have to get through it psychologically intact.
<br>We are set to go out of town this week end, just the two of us. I am looking forward to this and future times alone providing something of a thaw on such behavior.

Kenw,
<br>Surprisingly I'm not doing too bad today. I must be getting used to this stuff to some degree.
<br>I forgot to tell you that when you wrote that your wife told you she loved you I split into a big grin. I was genuinely happy that it happened for you.
<br>It's too bad that we can't have a party over this sort of thing. It certainly calls for one.
<br>

Greg,
<br>Your silent expectations hit home for me. My wife and I had some long talks this weekend. Many of her issues with me were her expectations of things I should have done. When I look back, I can see this. But, she felt that I SHOULD have known it. That it was not something she should need to tell me. There were (and still are) a lot of these expectations of me. I don't know how many of these things there are. Maybe she will eventually tell me them all. Maybe she still expects me to know them. Whatever, I know that we will both have to change our way of thinking about each other to make things better. We both know that.

Hello all,
<br>the last few days have been pretty hard for me. Sometimes I just can't take the lack of affection from my wife. She is spending more and more time away from home now, spending it at the gym. She says she feels free there and loves to spend time with the girls. I keep thinking that it is another man that keeps her attention there, but when I bring up the subject she says no. She says maybe it would be easier for me or it would make more sense if there were someone else.
<br>This is getting more and more difficult to handle. I was trying to give her as much unrestricted space as possible while still living in the same house, hoping that she would show some signs of "wifely" consideration - if there is such a thing. But she tells me that if she didn't feel so guilty about leaving me at home with the baby, she would stay away longer because this is the life and these are the people she chooses to spend her time with right now. Its where she feels most comfortable. It's so hard to hold my head up and be OK when all I really want is for her to WANT to spend some time at home with me.
<br>My real hang up right now is whether or not she is telling me the truth about there not being another man. Her absense makes this so difficult.
<br>I wish this was over.
<br>I'm so tired of being the one spouse with all the love.
<br>I know I've told you all to not give up, but its days like these that make it easier to do so.
<br> Greg

Greg,
<p>From the male point of view women appear to be so heartless with this thing. For men a screw up is easily fixed. Even if we get in a fight one guy can show up on the other's doorstep tomorrow with a swollen jaw and pick up were they left off. It's so simple to us.
<br>For women it seems to be on a totally different level. I know that it is so maddening how my wife can be so normal acting one day then starve me for the next four days. To me it seems like a cold, calculating hardness. To her it's...well, I don't really know what it is to her. My wife told me that I am going to need to learn how to go without the affection I used to like because it was excessive. I said that I could learn to do with less.
<br>But so far it seems like her definition of less is something like rationing water in the desert when you only have one canteen.
<br>But we are going off for the week end tomorrow. I hope this helps a little.
<br>Your wife sounds like she's being highly inconsiderate of you. Does she like to do anything else besides go to the gym?