H has been gone for 14 months. Sees the 2 younger children (13 and 16) on separate nights during the week (his choice and ordered by the court as "they do not get on as they fight!")<P>Since he left he never understood why I should be consulted when how and if the kids were going with him. Major inconsideration etc etc. He is far too busy to schedule the kids in and they have to "fit into' his busy schedule when nothing else is planned. i.e. they do not come anywhere near the top of his list of priorities. (courts had to sort this out as well as he "did what he wanted")<P>I have got to the point where if he does not communicate with ME and not the kids, regarding any changes to visitation (he would like to do what suits him and his calendar, never mind anyone elses agenda or plans) then there will be no flexibility. I have had to be consistent with the kids and they understand that by doing it the way he was, led to conflicts with the kids themselves and me.<P>This week my d asked me if she could go out on another night as dad was busy on the night scheduled. I told d that any changes had to be discussed not by her, but by her dad with me.<BR>She told me tonight that when her dad again asked her and she told him (as she has done for months now) that he should call me to discuss this, he told her that he will never call me about anything.<P>D then asked me why it was necessary for him to call me and I told her that this is the way adults should behave. <P>I will not call him and tell him (as I did over and over agin when this separation was new 14 months ago that since he had no clue about the kids arrangements, he had to clear their arrangements with me and then speak to them. We spent 3 sessions at the marriage counselor working on this, which he disregarded)<P>It seems that d is somehow losing out,but i can not again call him to try to explain how "adults" are supposed to conduct their lives.<BR>My biggest fault of many according to H was that I was a control freak, and I refuse to play his game now.<BR>I guess this is something else he will blame on me, but I have shown the kids that on the very odd occasion I have needed to, I have called him and spoken to him. So this is bizarre.<P>Is it possible that he is angry (LOL) because he can no longer manipulate me into ensuring that he always gets his way (as he did throughout the marriage) <P>

Does your husband have email?<P>I think it is better if parents can talk and make arrangements. Especially if your husband feels you are controlling. (I'm not suggesting that, it just seems that is the reasoning he is using to make some of his decisions.)<P>I think boundaries are important, but - for the kids sake - I think it is better if you can remain as flexible as possible without causing further deterioration of your relationship with your husband. <P>How is changing nights going to affect you? How can you change your life to allow for for more flexibility? How capable is your daughter of "relaying" accurate messages? Is he asking for changes in advance? <P>If he insists on communicating through your daughter, is there anyway that you could communicate in a friendly and flexible way - by only having your daughter deliver a note? It is much better to have direct communication if at all possible, but at this point - it seems that he is unwilling. Rather than take the chance of your daughter miscommunicating what you want to say, maybe you could scribble a little non-threatening note to answer the questions that are being posed?<P>I don't know what breeds conflict more, mis-communication or pre-conceived thoughts. <P>Why not try giving your husband the benefit of the doubt, and respond friendly and flexible?<P>I think it is very wise to guard against allowing visitation or children become the focus of unresolved conflict. It can cause all kinds of havoc, so protect yourself, him, and your children from any temptations in that area.<P>TNT

Have you considered emailing each other regarding visitation? Or he can send the messages to the kids and that way you can read it and work with them on how to reply. Also, its in writing so that you have a kind of documentation. Its a thought.<BR>Your oldest child is 16. That is old enough to make their own decisions regarding visits. At that age they have such active social lives themselves that maybe your H and 16yr old can work that out. The 13yr old is actually old enough, I believe, to have a say in all of this as well. The courts will listen to both of them.<BR>Just try to always work with him in the best interests of the children. If he asks for a change in the schedule, and you and the kids are OK with the change, agree to it and then gently remind him that you are cooperating with him, because you feel that it is in the kids best interests to be able to see him. Then, document this so you have records to show the court that you are always willing to work with him on visitation and that he is the person who is uncooperative. Key words: That you are always doing things in the best interest of the children. That is what the courts want to hear.<BR>I know you don't want to talk to him, but, if you can keep emotion out of it and just talk strictly about the visits in a spirit of cooperation than that in the long run will be what is best for all of you. <BR>It all sucks doesn't it?<BR>Stay strong and don't let the b@st@rds get you down!<BR>Lisa

trustntruth and tryingtoletgo:<BR>Thank you for your advice.<BR>I will and do talk to H re the kids on the very few occasions this has been necessary, he just refuses to communicate with me in any way and only has 2X...once when he wanted to take my son away and I insisted that he give me the itinerary (did not have to talk to me, but COMMUNICATE...took him until the last minute, but he knew if he did not, son could not go and he had to spend money which would be wasted)<P>No, I do not think H has e-mail. He has chosen not to communicate with me using any formats EXCEPT through the children, and it is this that I am trying to get him to understand that he can no longer do as it is not in my children or my best interests.<P>This is the only way, i.e. through the kids that he can still"push my triggers" with inconsiderate and disrespectful behaviour towards anyone who stands up to his emotional bullying (all else apart from the kids issues I just pass on the threats to my lawyer)<P>Because it has been in my kids interests, for the past 14 months I have endured his making, changing plans on a whim, no consideration and I have been left hanging with plans for things with or without the kids in tatters which I do resent. He is "so busy" that the seperate nights HE FOUGHT IN COURT FOR, no longer suits him and he now wants the kids on the same night (according to the kids)<BR>I have been consistent in saying any changes have to be addressed to me by their dad, not them and left it at that.<P>Whether I have been inconvenienced or not is not the main issue, if my H would take the kids out of the communication triangle (which i do not play into) then things would be easier for the kids in the long run and this is what I am trying to do, but he just "does not understand". <P>H has not understood this from day one and has used and manipulated the kids in terms of so much in every way, making them confused and even angrier than they would have been.<BR>He is still using them in the messenger mode (which I from day 1 told them was a no no and I have never knowingly done this) and it is this that I want to avoid.<P>It also puts me in conflict with the kids. If they have a prior arrangement,(he takes them to zero appontments etc) they want to know why this cannot be changed to suit their father etc every time he tries to change dates. <P>I cannot suggest anything to him as he clearly has lost his mind and thinks that he is always right (narcissistic and meglomaniac) .<P>I have told the kids that I will communicate with their father on an as needs to basis, and have on 2 or 3 occasions(not really needed to otherwise as I make all decisions and do everything for them), but he refuses to and will only do so when backed to a wall and then ensures he calls when I am not home to leave a message. I do call him back and speak to him directly (3x in 9 months!)<P>This is very childish, but I cannot and will not try to suggest anything to him as he is not at a place where he can hear any logic or clarity, even where OUR children are concerned. <P>By the way, I have ensured that the kids NEVER EVER have any arrangements on his night or the weekend they are supposed to see him, which means my weekend and days after school with them are crammed!<P>Yes, the kids do make social plans, but as teens these often happen at the last minute...and I am the parent who has to "help out often " with travel or make sure that I am contactable, even when it is H's weekend as my 16 year old often then sleeps here as his dad's place is downtown and less convenient ( and dad is not at all interested in the hassles of any of this stuff), which is fine for the most part, except when I am playd as a sucker by all.<P>Until now (14 months) I have been flexible, but have had to curtail this flexibility as H took advantage over and over, often hurting the kids with the change in plans, so the lawyers had to get involved. The minute this happened, he got angry as he was not able to be this "free spirit!"<P>I have just called my d therapist who advised me to ensure that the plans do not flow through my d to me. If H wants a change, then he HAS to communicate with me..not talk, but find a means and not through the kids<BR>Sorry this is so long but ......<BR>

Sounds like a situation really brewing for a blow up - and from my experience in dealing with my X with teenagers, trying to be consistent with your boundaries with a stubborn narcisstic X husband - and an X husband who continually brought our kids into the issue - I guess I am suggesting that you do something to be more flexible to help the situation, not strengthen your boundaries.<P>Yes, boundaries are good. But, I'm afraid it will blow up in your face - because the kids will see you as hurtful to their father.<P>If the kids want to do something on the evenings they are scheduled to be with their father, try telling them that you have no authority over that time, and they should give their father a call and see if HE gives them permission to do their activity. It will make him feel more like a "real" father. And, it is appropriate, and leaves you out of being the "bad" guy.<P>And, although your husband insists on using the kids as little communication tools (how remote - there are so many ways to communicate instead of using your children...) - then you can and should do nothing to change that. You have tried, and he is a stubborn fool. Let it backfire in HIS face, not yours. You can still write a note and tuck it in your children's pockets to communicate, and they don't have to be involved.<P>More than likely your husband will read the note and then try and engage the children in conversation - to try and sway their opinion his way, or to use them as a means to get back at you for all of his anger (justified or not.) What he is doing is hurting himself and his kids. <P>Your kids are going to learn through trial and error how to manage their relationship with their father. You are out of that relationship, and you should stay out of that relationship. You should not be the mediator, and he needs to learn how to relate to his kids without you. You need to learn how to have a respectful and meaningful relationship with your kids, and your kids will learn to trust and regard your approach.<P>Continue to be the grown up. If you take away the fuel for the fire, the fire goes out. Think about what the fuel is. The fuel here is "control". Take away your need to control, and you have only his need. By his own demonstration of control, he also demonstrates his own lack of control. By your demonstration of choosing not to control, you are demonstrating control. (Hope that made sense).<P>Let your kids have the relationship with their father - be flexible, do not be concerned with his control tactics, treat your children with respect and regard, direct the children to their father for decisions that he can make, and do all you can to make life at your house pleasant and better.<P>Your poor kids didn't ask for a divorce, and you need to protect them from any unhappiness as a result of your failed marriage. And you can be surprised that your decisions in love can actually cause your husband to begin to treat you with the respect that you deserve. <P>It is a divorce you are dealing with, and it is the ugliest situation there is. I am trying to avoid this at all costs. <P>Hang in there, and do the right thing because it is right, not because it will benefit you. Protect your kids and their relationship with their father in every way you can. In this way you will strengthen your relationship with your kids.

trustntruth:<BR>Thank you so much for the replies to this thread, your input in so much appreciated.<P>My kids know that I never ever get involved in their scheduled time with their dad. In fact when they fought over whose turn it was to see dad (and this is when the lawyers got involved to make it formal as H "left this up to kids" to decide) and they looked to me to mediate, I told them they had to work it out between themselves and with their dad and left the room. This however also empowered the kids vis a vis each other and led to them fighting more than usual which led H to state he needed to see them separately! In fact this lack of structure and lack of dad setting the times was making them crazier!<P>On his weekend since sometimes one or another chooses not to go (and I never advise them but wait for them to tell me) all I state is that if they are not going, or going part of the time, then I need to know when they will be back with me, for at this time, whether I am home or not, I am then responsible parentally and they do know this now. Before they felt (which I consistently explained was a parenting concern, had nothing to do with their dad, but if they were in my home, no matter whose weekend, then I was the parent responsible for them) anyone could do anything, come in and out at any time of the day or night and not be answerable to anyone.<P>This has been resolved with the "set" visitation times. It is here that H wants to bend the rules through the kids and I do not want to move backwards to where we were.<BR>By not involving the kids and taking the triangle with the kids out of the mess, I feel that the kids will not be torn by hearing all this cr@p. They know he is nuts, but I have told them he loves them . I do not get involved in their realtionship with their father, except accasionally to point out to them that they should treat him with the same respect and consideration which I expect. <P>When my son and his father did not speak for a month in the summer, I took on an extra role that my son needed from his dad but did not get,(no parenting whatsoever which is why he is "uncle dad") so that there was little conflict and this has helped.<P>I never ask them about their time with dad and ow and listen if they do tell me anything but rarely comment except when he has taught them some of his "new" values which are contrary to what we both believed in prior to this mess. I want them to know right from wrong (and this is not about ow and his new lifestyle at all but other stuff) MLC FULLBLOWN<P>The real problem is that H does not forward plan, but changes his times with the kids at the last minute and all are expected to drop everything and run and this is what i will no longer discuss with the kids, but only communicate with him. As for writing a note...by the time he gets it, the "date" will have come and gone!<P>This weekend is his....s not sleeping there at all ( too crowded if sister goes and ow's d there as well...wonder what it will be like next month when my older 2 are back from school!) and d is sick so has said that she probably will not go, but I told her she will see how she feels!(She never goes when she feels ill)<P>Basically life here has settled down, the kids know and do not balk at the boundaries too much, they get along better, and know that I love them no matter what and will not walk out on them as a parent (they were very scared when dad walked away from all responsibilities as a parent)<P>This is why this mess is so bad...this was not only about ow, but a MLC in full swing and lack of all responsibilities to anyone, including the kids. There is nothing for their dad to help them with in any decisions...he never did this and this is what is so sad...the ones he does make are so messed up it causes further problems as he is teaching the kids to have disrespect for everyone and to do what makes them happy regardless of the consequences, often enabling this!<P>Sorry this is again so long....what I am trying to say is that by removing myself from the "control" re the visitation changes by no longer engaging in this discussion with my kids, and that is why h should communicate with me, it will become a non issue in my relationship with the kids. <P>I have tried in all aspects to do what is in the kids best interests even if it has not always been good for me. The next time this comes up, I will send a note if at all possible. <BR>