I have noticed that a large number of betraying spouses have been diagnosed as depressed or bi-polar. My H has never been diagnosed, but I am sure he has suffered from depression for years. Well, suffered isn't really the right word, because apparently mental illness is one of the few diseases where the family suffers far more than the "victim". Our first therapist told him he should see a therapist individually, but he said, "He didn't feel the need".<P>The one who is depressed is in many ways the lucky one. He gets to choose to "treat" his depression with an affair, he gets to find one of the many available middle aged women with lots of money so he can do whatever he wants, he gets to have most of his kids continue to love him and relish every second they can spend with him, and the fact that the other two don't want to have anything to do with him doesn't bother him apparently, because it is their fault. He can shut off his emotions at will. He gets to choose not to feel guilty. I wish I didn't have any emotions. I wish I could do whatever made me feel good at the moment without feeling guilty. I wish I could go on a vacation and not have to worry about the kids because I knew someone was taking good care of them. <P>It is so blatantly obvious that the way to be happy is to be able to choose not to feel guilt. I wish I knew how the H*** he manages that. If it requires mental illness to do that, people who are mentally ill are so d*** lucky. <P>I wish my parents had raised me differently. I wish my father had not been nurturing - silly me, I never realized that many, perhaps most, fathers really don't give a d*** about their children. I never realized that most families have only one primary parent, and the other one doesn't really care, and will leave as soon as the opportunity presents itself. I wish my parents had taught me that no one can be trusted. I wish someone had warned me. I wish they had told me that he could lie through his teeth and pretend he loved me and the kids for so many years. He denied me the chance to make choices about my life because our marriage was based on the apparently false pretence that he loved me. I don't think he was planning to leave until after the OW came into the picture, but I suspect from what he has said that this may not have been the first time he cheated. He stole my life from me. Would I have ever given up my job, my home to go with him when he went into business for himself if I had known that the didn't really want to be with me? He went out of his way to lie to me and tell me that he would have liked to have had more children if we could have afforded it (though now he claims not to remember saying it), when he doesn't even care about the ones we have. <P>I envy all those people who are narcissistic, bi-polar, or whatever, because they are not the ones who are suffering. They will never suffer because they can't feel any guilt. They will never miss their children because they don't care. <P>And don't tell me that he will feel sorry later. His father is in his 80's and has never cared very much for his son or his grandchildren, and it has never bothered him much. My H and his brother still love him, and although I know my H is resentful, he would never tell his father that, so his father thinks everything is just fine. It is so much easier to go through life if all you care about is yourself.

Nellie,<BR> Now that I've stepped back and really thought about my marriage,I've realized just how self-centered,narcissistic,arrogant,and irresponsible my W is.This isn't that re-writing history thing,either.I can remember so many times when she treated me with dis-respect,or indifference.<BR> <BR> I,myself,have suffered from some depression off and on for years.Perhaps some of it stemmed from never feeling truly loved.Never even considered an affair.Some things I held in high regard,my marriage being one of them.Don't ever feel that people who suffer from depression are lucky,though.It's a terrible feeling.I wouldn't wish it on anybody(well,W&OM).<BR> <BR> I think you're right about some people not having emotions like guilt,shame,remorse,or grief.I sense my W never seemed to feel grief for anything,including deaths of family,pets,etc.Doesn't it make you wonder if there's something missing upstairs,that allows some people to do certain actions that others wouldn't dream of doing?<P> Don't envy people like this,Nellie.You're a much better person than he'll ever be.I know it's tough now,but when your kids grow up,you're the one they'll be there for.Don't ever forget that. --Murph

Nellie,<BR>I think what Murpy wrote is so true. Do not envy these people because they do not feel these deep emotions, such as guilt, empathy, shame, remorse or grief....you would not be you, the wonderful person you are, if this was the case.<P>IMHO, this is why some people can choose to betray their whole family with infidelity and others do not, even if the circumstances of the marriage are the same.<P>Values, morality, honesty etc all play into why some choose certain paths for life choices while others do not.<P>I do not think my H is depressed or bi polar ...his narcissism and egocenricism would not let him be!!!!<P>Would you really like to go through life blaming others when things do not go your way and you do not get what you feel is your entitlement? Would you like to go through life where you cannot relate to peple except as what they can do for you.<P>While I am VERY resentful of how my H has chosen to lead his life in terms of ow, finances, and especially the kids, I would not trade places with him for one millisecond even though he seems to be the only one not "suffering" through this mess.<P>But how can he suffer when he will not acknowledge the impact of his actions on anyone (and when it has not worked out in his best interests as he fantasised that it would, his anger is all at me as I have stood up to him legally, which is the last thing he expected) His behaviour and verbal threats of course had nothing to do with my actions in his mind. I am just being mean, vindictive and nasty. He cannot understand that I have needed to protect myself financially from HIM!

Murph,<P>My H treated me with disrespect on many occasions as well, possibly to punish me for the resentment he felt about who knows what - since if something was wrong he never bothered to tell me. Sometimes I think conflict avoiders are really just control freaks, who enjoy the sense of power it gives them to treat you like cr** while you have no idea what you might have done wrong.<P>willbok,<P>All my life I thought that being a good person, and doing the right thing would lead to happiness. I tried to avoid doing things that would lead to feeling guilty, not that I was anywhere close to perfect. <P>I do envy my H's ability to not feel remorse. Perhaps it would be worth it if it could protect me from feeling this pain. <BR>

I'm with all of you on this. Do you really think that these types of people are ever "HAPPY?" I mean really happy??? I don't think they will find "true happiness" they live for the highs and thats it!<P>I have tried to understand. I have read about all of these problems and trying to understand the why's, why does someone become like this? What are the triggers in their lifes that do this??<P>I honestly believe that it stems from a great trama, such as abuse for example, in their lives. I was sexually abused as a child by an uncle. I am able to talk about this, I am able to deal with it. <P>A friend of mine was abused by her brother, she turned to drugs, prostitution very self destructive behaviors. We both talk about it to each other, we are able to get these feelings out. Like I told my friend, if she wasn't able to do this she would still be in the self-destructive mode. She agrees.<P>I am trying to find info on the why's. If someone has a web site with this info, please let me know ok!!<P>Tracy

I don't know if he is ever really happy, but at least he isn't miserable all the time either. He can just shut off his emotions, forget that he ever had a family, not care if he doesn't see or talk to his kids for a week or more sometimes, not be bothered by missing their growing up. He doesn't have to wake up in the morning after having a dream about his spouse and realize that real life is the nightmare. He doesn't have to worry about a d*** thing except getting himself to work in the morning. He can have the kids come to visit if it is convenient, but if he has something better to do, they can just wait until the next week. <P>

Nellie,<BR>My W said she wasn't happy.She even said if I bought her something,she was happy,for a while.If I built her something,again she was happy for a while.Ditto for taking her on a nice trip.She was always changing things around at home.Maybe one day,she looked around to see what else she could change,to make her happy.Then she looked at me.<BR> <BR> I have my own hobbies,plus working on the house and cars.I didn't sit around a lot,wondering if I was always happy.She didn't have any hobbies,or friends.She sat around reading romance novels a lot.Just never seemed happy,like she was waiting for me to entertain her.Now she's got BoyToy to entertain her.I wonder how long that will last?<BR> <BR> Tracy,My W always needed to be the center of attention,even her mother said she was like that as a child.Do you know how hard it is to be married to someone who needs to be the center of attention around everybody?It makes you feel insecure,like you're not good enough.So like you said,this could stem from childhood behaviors.Plus,she was r@ped in jr.high,which could account for her sexual obsession,who knows?Always liked to flirt with the guys,maybe an affair was inevitable.I guess I'll never understand people like this.Too bad I can't do a Mr.Spock mind-meld on them! --Murph<BR>

Murph,<P>I have the exact same wife, but I know where it comes from, her family of origin. When I first dated my W, if her father called up, he would ask for the princess of the house.<BR><gag><P>My FIL introduced me to my MIL as:<BR>"this is MIL, don't argue with her, she is<BR>always right."<P>that says alot about who wore the pants in<BR>the family there, no discussion, no intimacy.<P>MIL and FIL decided they did not want to <BR>raise raise two kids when they started to <BR>become teenages, it was too hard, so they hired grandmother. Grandmother was a <BR>flaming liberal newspaper reporter, never<BR>responsible for what she wrote, always <BR>bashing the rich from the great depression.<P>as my W now tells me, as a junior finance<BR>executive, I am no longer real anymore.<P>I should have seen the signs earlier, but<BR>I never figured it out in time. And as the<BR>kids begin to suffer, become more beligerent, and I told her it may be more than just starting to be teenagers, she said I don't think so, and walked away. How easy it is not to think, search for romance instead of hard work, and say,<BR>if I really, really worried about the kids,<BR>I would try to save the marriage.<P>It took 1/2 hour to convince W that her decision to proceed with the D was not ALL<BR>my fault. How easy it is to blame others.<BR>

Hey all,<P>My was diagnosed with Borderline Personality disorder along with depression. I knew that he always looked at me to make him happy. It is impossible for him to look internally for any issues. He has to lay blame to someone else. I just never understood what I was living with. He claims that it was a miss diagnosis. But it is basically that you are on the border of paranoid schizophrenic and his brother is a full blown schizophrenic living on the street. After researching more, these people are never happy, they are always looking at outside influences to pump them up. They are always changing things to see if it makes them happy. I put up with him constanly changing jobs and moving me around the country, never understanding his constant boredom. I enjoy many hobbies and am a member of many groups like a cooking club, a tennis club the PTA. He just couldn't understand why I wanted to always be doing something. He hated to travel and complained constantly while traveling. It also said that if this type of person lived with someone who provided a stable life for them they could function very well in the business world or society. I did everythign for him. I lived with him for 17 years he never did a dish, laundry, or paid a bill. I had to teach him how to write a check and do laundry when he left. It is such a relief to be released from the relationship. I don't think he feels any guilt or remorse that he has ignored his children and left our family. He just did it one day and never came back.<P>I wouldn't waste too much energy trying to figure why? They all have to live with there actions. I don't believe it has to do with us at all. It is all about them. Nellie, I hope that your pain will go away one day. I know that you feel so betrayed and abandoned. It is hard to see the good side, but one day you might find yourself happy and settled. Take care, I am thinking about you. <P>GP

Murph,<P>My H kept changing things as well. He has convinced himself (or she has convinced him) that he "could never be happy in a relationship with me". I suppose the fact that he wasn't happy when I first met him is irrelevant. The only time he ever seemed reasonably happy was when he liked his job and we had plenty of money.<P>Limerick,<P>My H exhibits so many of those traits listed on the Borderline Personality disorder link! It said though that most people get better in there 30's and 40's - and my H got worse as he approached 50.<BR>