Chuck and MMT: I reread some of Dr. Harley's articles on this site--had read His Needs, Her Needs about a year ago--and wondered if your wives would consider taking his Emotional Needs Questionnaire? Seems in your case, especially, Chuck, it would clarify what EXACTLY it is she's seeking in a relationship. I remember her original "wish list" was pretty abstract. Another thought was that if you guys fill it out, too, it will perhaps help you in another relationship, if you can't repair the ones you're in--at least, you'll know what kinds of emotional needs you have. Hey--you, too, Kim, as you embark on the dating scene! Maybe it will clarify just what you're looking for in Mr. Right.<P>Last night was kind of interesting. Remember a few weeks ago I said things just didn't seem completely "right" with my marriage? H seemed sort of distracted, not particularly willing to talk--which is one reason I've been burning up these threads with postings, I surmise. Anyway, I initiated a "discussion" and it went really well. Heck, after almost 30 years of marriage I'm learning how to talk about these things with my H without being all emotional, etc.! I now focus on <I>concrete</I> solutions instead of wallowing in "feelings" discussions which a lot of men (generalization!) just can't stomach too well. I wanted to "connect" more in conversation, so we decided a good time would be when he was cleaning up after supper. Soooo, instead of me retreating to the computer to check my email, etc., I'll hang out with him and that can be a designated time to get some chat in. It's a little thing, I suppose, but I was happy to feel we could look at a "problem" together and amicably come up with a solution we both liked. I love it when that happens!

Chuck/Kate/Kim/MMT...thanks for the encouragement. I am a confused person right now.<BR>I'm writing from home and my computer could crash at any given moment, so I'll check <BR>back in tomorrow afternoon.<P>thanks,<BR>theo<P>

Oh NO, Theo...hope you don't crash and burn!<P>I know, MMT. I was burning up the keyboard working. Guess everyone was busy today, huh?<P>Kate, that after dinner time with your H is a GREAT idea. Let us know how it goes. I've been looking around the site too. I'll have to do the questionnaire. I'm going out Saturday to car shop, dinner movies, but unfortunately with my mom! LOL OH well, she's just as flirty as me. If there's anyone paying attention, she'll be the first to notice. I was excited to see they started a section on dating as well. I've been checking that out.

Skye, thanks for meeting me in the middle. I remember starting out at this in a much more reserved manner... and the pace just seemed to quicken over time. Even I have chimed in and told some people be to a little less chatty..... so I do inpart understand your point of view.<P>Missy, hang in there... we'll be around for help and support!<P>Kate, guess where the idea for the whole emotional needs list I asked my W to provide me came from??? One of Dr. Harley's books. She refused to read it or even look at the questionairre (which I offered several times), so I had to play be her rules and ask with nothing in writing, straight from the heart, and all that surreal stuff she believes should be a part of the relationship. You know the rest, I think we beat that one for a month or more.<P>I was off with my STBX at an open house for a family friend who's H died. Amazing how many divorced couples were there together as friends from 'earlier times'. And the STBX was talking with folks as if there were no divorce in the works.... even talked about where the 5 yr old will go to school next year.... in the town we live in now.... but her answer was different than the town we live in a couple weeks ago.<P>We see the couples counselor this Monday, and I'm really wondering if a turning point is close, or this is just another false start...<P>Kate, great progress with the H!<P>

Chuck, maybe it's best that she didn't fill out<BR>the emotional needs questionnaire. I failed miserably; <BR>I know it's based on what the OM is providing her <BR>that I didn't (or couldn't, if you want to involve <BR>the factor of having children in the house), so <BR>maybe it's for the best. I'm sure you want to <BR>know what she thinks of you; at this point, ya ain't <BR>gonna receive high marks. Just speaking from <BR>personal experience .<P>theo<P>

first, chuck, sorry if i sounded short with you last night - it was a long and kind of rough day and i was writing on a palm pilot - not a medium which encourages "chattiness" - i'm feeling damn sad about leaving my family and i guess i really sort of snapped at you about 'doing a 180' - it really is a 'last resort' and i haven't anything else to try except last resorts<P>--<P>for the people on this board who are offended by our group discussion - i can understand that it's difficult to know what's happening and to follow - often, i'm overwhelmed by the shear volume of information and conversation - that's entirely offset by the fact that these people are mature, helpful and caring - they've become part of my support system in life and i count them as friends even if the connection is 'virtual' - a chat room wouldn't support the virtual nature of this conversation - the basic group which started this thread now lives across three time zones and can't all be online at the same time - i have to agree with chuck, disk is cheap and the forum is divided into threads so people can pursue different interests - we are just 'leaving tracks in the sand' (bits on disk) and if people want to be part of it, they are welcome and if they don't, the beach is big enough to play elsewhere<P>--<P>this has been a pretty down day for me - my first in california - much of it spent working - this afternoon, seeing my apartment for the first time and the reality hitting me (like i said it hit julia yesterday) - i'm really sad and also knowing i'm doing the right thing for myself - many of the people i work with are gone this week and i'm sure that next week after i'm settled in a bit and people i know are back, i'll feel much better<P>--<P>mmt, i'm glad you are having another chance with your marriage - that feels really warm to me - i know it's probably difficult (i think you said your wife quit working without even talking to you, for instance), but i feel the love in your heart and i really resonate with that - i would still be there and try in a minute if julia were to want me to come back - i wish you the best of luck and i hope, beyond luck, that you and your wife can develop the skills to communicate more openly and to keep your marriage alive and happy!<P>--<P>i never did answer about the cars - we don't own (and never have owned) any vegas so i feel kind of out of it on this one - i drive a 10 year old mazda 626 and julia drives a 5 year old mazda protoge - last summer, we bought a ford expedition for family trips, etc. - she's keeping it (and the payments) but i asked to be able to use it each year for camping trips with the kids, etc.<P>--<P>i'm also still thinking about the whole sub-thread on gender differences - mmt, you said something about how it feels to hold/make love to a woman and how that's the most magic (or some equivalent) feeling to a man - i used to completely feel that way but over the last few years, i've had two experiences which have tempered that feeling of women being so different and 'on the other side of a mountain' for me - first is that four years ago, i went to work in a highly technical (software engineering) organization run almost entirely by women and now, i work in an organization with about 30% women - that's in contrast to the prior 15 years of working in nearly all-male engineering organizations (horribly boring, unreal and leaving me with an unspecified hunger all the time) - all that has led to a different and much more balanced perspective on women - the second thing is that my current (nearly ended) marriage is the first relationship of my life which has been entirely sexually satisfying - that resolved a lot of little boy curiosity and unfulfilled stuff - all that put together has left me in a place of seeing women as just more people in the world and as potential partners in life and work without feelings i used to have that they held some secret ability to satisfy unknown things for me - i'd say i'm in a much more balanced and much less needy place in life as a result of these experiences - being in that balanced place is what leads me to be able to focus on the sameness more than the differences<BR>

Mark: Just here for a quick check in...that was a good post! I'll have to think a bit about your male/female differences/sameness thing before I start spouting off...

Mark, I hate to hear you're sad. A big change in any way is difficult, but you are going through so many changes right now; two big ones: leaving the family AND moving. I give you a lot of credit for doing it, though. You could see through the emotion, and you knew what was best for you right now. There will be a lot of up and down days for you ahead, I'm afraid, but I really believe you did the right thing. You took a step weaker people may not have taken. You definitely took that other fork in the road! I'm glad you have your work to keep you busy. It helps, doesn't it? I know I'd go insane if I didn't have the work to keep my mind occupied. Even still, I can lose my concentration and wander. That's when my days get bad. Now take this big {{HUG}} from me and have a good day when you finally get around to starting your day! LOL Since it's only 5:00 AM here, you're nowhere near starting yet, right?!?

MMT,<P>How goes it? Sorry to have been 'out' last eve. BTW, have you read the marriage builders stuff? Frankly, his theories make a lot of sense to me, but I also see them as being the sort of world view that resonates more with men than women (not that its a black and white issue). I know for Kate its right up her alley, but I'd be curious to hear other women's opinions. <P>My STBX has never seen it practical to work on the marriage from a 'cookbook' approach, yet I think if she did, it would make a world of difference. Anyways, if your W and you try any of his stuff (like the emotional questionairre) I'd be interested in knowing how it goes.<P>Mark, your 180 suggestion was not inappropriate. Indeed, I have done a 180 at an emotional level.... told her I'd not fight a divorce, found a mediator and got the ball rolling, even offered a couple weeks ago to stop the couples counseling because she was clear it was her wish for us to move on with our lives, and the coparenting etc. stuff was working out just fine. The 'modified 180' may be working..... too early to tell, but I am ever the optimist.<P>Hey, don't feel bad about being sad, its part of the process. Its like riding a pendulum, every so often you swing to the 'dark' side, and then you come back to the 'at peace' side. The overall trend is to visit the dark side less and less.... and if you didn't have these really sad days, then I WOULD be worried!<P>I really liked your description of getting to understand females more 'realisticly'. Especially getting over the 'little boy curiosity', I relate to that.<P>Theo, the questionairre issue was/is an interesting one. My W, when questioned about her needs, came back with a list that was about 50% stuff that I had no control over. Also, answers that were very foggy. Example: "To be creative in all that I do". She didn't really answer the question.... but insists that 'she's worked on these things with me and it just didn't produce results'.<P>I realize that I have plenty of relationship oriented faults, and she does also. But its become clear that she also has a lot of personal issues that she needs to resolve, and she doesn't want my help in dealing with them. However, she's a master at creating elaborate observations about the world that let her believe 'she's working on things', when she really is simply avoiding the real issues. Whenever I start to work with her on these issues, her 'house of cards' starts to collapse, and she withdraws from having a dialogue with me.<P>So anyways... the emotional needs thing is s useful step she and should take if we're going to ever get the marriage back on track. And I know I'll get a bad 'report card', but that's ok, identifying problem areas is the first step to addressing them. But the trick is to get her to the table... which has taken a lot of patience. <BR>

Ok many good points presented by all. Any way we cut it some pain going on. I do feel posting is helping work through issues and also letting some of the rest of us see that there may still be issues we need to face. I just love keeping my head in the sand and knowing it is all OK and going away. My wife and I cut our teeth so to speak on "his need her needs". In fact I dug her list out of my wallet this morning. I will have to re-write it as I can hardly read it. I use to read it daily, then ever so often, now I hadn't read it in over a year. Some times I think I should say I'm married man Lying about Trying. <P>------------------<BR>Married Man Trying & doing better day by day.

Kate I am so happy seeing these little light bulbs light up for each of us, duh, it could have been easy a year ago, or why didn't I JUST TRY IT, etc. LOL Mark, I do feel you pain and Trust me you are not a bad person just because you never owned a Vega. LOL Theo I am glad to see you are still with us and joining in. Chuck, Kim, Kate, I must now admit we were to poor to have a Vega and I only left you with the impression {maybe we had} so I could fit in. Blush! I hope I can be forgiven??? I just so desire to be in the IN crowd. LOL Thank all of you for being here, it is such a help.

Chuck I am still happy with the progress I hear your wife making even though you maybe to close to it to see it. I have the same thing with my wife. It seems so simple to me and she just don't face it. When I do back off and even refuse to get involved and force her to make her own decisions on her stuff. Yes Chuck, I think we do make them feel like we take many rights of choice away from them. I have to make business decisions on a dime and carry some of that home as they are not that big of a deal to me. To her they are big and she wants to make them or be really really involved.

thanks to everyone for the support, hugs and kind words! - i had a couple of margaritas and a solid night's sleep last night and woke up with the sun shining in my head again! - i'm sitting in my new (totally empty) apartment, delighted to find that the phone line is live [who knows whether that will last - now i'm afraid to call the phone company for fear they'll turn it off in the process of 'turning it on' :-) ] - being here is going to be a lot of fun and life moves forward . . .<BR>

Glad to hear the up beat voice this morning Mark...Hang in there.

hello again everyone, I'm going back to the Plan A/Plan B and General Questions forum now; I'll try to drop by once in a while to say 'hi'. My wife and I went to counseling this morning, and I feel for the first time that her bubble with the OM is getting some cracks in it (hehehe...no, shouldn't laugh; it's sad...for them....I mean it....really).<P>see ya,<BR>theo<BR>(hehehe)<BR>

MMT.....you amaze me. You have kept her list in your wallet? Well, yes, you need to read it now and then, but YOU KEEP IT IN YOUR WALLET??? My STBX didn't even keep a picture of me in his wallet!! You have it in you. You know the right things to do. It's just figuring out the combination and getting the numbers in the right order to crack open that safe. You can do it. You have the desire, and that's half the battle. <P>Mark.....New Rule: You are NOT allowed to use the words "California" and "sunshine" in the same sentence....understood!?!? Just kidding. I'm glad your morning was brighter. <P>My afternoon is ticking away, so I'd better get to work! See ya!

Kim thank you. I do have some of the tools and try kinda, just get lazy I guess when it goes right for a few weeks. My wife like you only figures out the movie when we are in the store...drives me nuts. Put on paper the list of the 446 movies we want to see and the progression of aprox 2001 we will be here and these movies led up to these feelings. Therefore we will watch this to add spark as the last 14 were kinda downers. Why can't she see how wonderful a planned life would be? She did take stuff outa the freezer for me to cook tonight. Usually she wants to decide as the stove heats as it would only then be able to be decided as we don't know how we will feel until the day is done or something! I do a lot of the cooking and can not do anything without a kinda plan, so I try all day to think and sorta plan. Thank you Kim for seeing that in my small way I do try.

. . . Mark.....New Rule: You are NOT allowed to use the words "California" and "sunshine" in the same sentence....understood!?!? . . .<P>for what it's worth, it's raining this afternoon - you happy now?<P>hmmm, knowing this group, if i start talking about people getting wet, things will deteriorate quickly :-))<P>-mm<BR>

Mark, Mark, Mark.....what a high opinion you have of our motley crew!!! LOL We HAVE been behaving, in case you haven't noticed. Then the quiet one pipes in and gets things all stirred up again!! Have you been hitting those margaritas again today? Wish I had one! (or two) I'll have to settle for a glass of wine, I guess. That's all I have in the house! How boring.

NA NA!! Hey guys...I'm the first to become a full "MEMBER." You're all jealous, I know. (That just means I've had the biggest mouth!) So perhaps everyone should leave Chuck alone and realize "I'm" the one he has to tell to shut up and stay on topic! LOL