Kim I am really jealous. I don't even know if I can talk to a member you BIG mouth you. LOL Mark I do like the rain, now I do envy you.

Okay, all, get ready for some big-time envy kicking in...I actually met with my...life insurance agent today--talk about thrills! We explored ALL those intimate subjects: life insurance, retirement...WOW! I'm sure pumped up, realizing that I'm worth a heck of a lot more dead than alive! That pretty much makes MY day!<P>Okay...let's get serious here (yes! serious!) Mark mentioned male/female differences as opposed to just "people differences," and you know me--there's no subject out there I don't have a "considered opinion" on (in other words, I like to blab, whether I have anything intelligent to say or not).<P>If I'm reading you right,Mark, your point is that differences between people are more important than male/female differences...and I agree...kind of. <P>I gualify it because I really believe there are (general) gender differences. (An experiment: try scanning some of the threads on this board--or any other, most likely--I've already run into a few where the gender differences come down hot and heavy--try the threads dealing with pornography, if you have an asbestos coat handy--the men and women just DON'T GET how the "other" can act or feel as they do.)<P>But, these differences are mitigated by all the ways we as individuals are so different--so on a <B>micro</B> level the sex of any particular individual may not matter much. I don't think I'm saying this very well! Just that, yes, there are real gender differences (which I didn't truely believe until I had children)...BUT--I don't really look on gender as "destiny," especially when dealing with individuals.

Hi guys, still here, just kind of exhausted. Work has been relaxed but intense, I've been doing PR stuff with the STBX (who's brand new business is now also a subcontractor to my business), TV stuff yesterday, congressman today... all very good opportunity but a little on the surreal side.<P>And I continue to get mixed messages from the STBX. We've always been pretty relaxed about nudity in the bedroom, etc, even after we started down the divorce path, but I make a point of giving her space and avoiding her if I know she's even partially undressed. well, today she was changing at lunch for this shindig (her dresser is in what is now 'my' room), and I was in the adjacent room, not headed to the bedroom, and shes starts with a theatric "don't come in" routine.... very uncharacteristic. Seeing her (or not) naked is not a really big deal (like I haven't already got a high resolution blueprint of every inch in my mind!).... but the way she acted was not like I've seen her before. A new boundary where I had already placed one months ago.....<P>Plus other things I won't get into here.... life is full of challenges and learning. Mind you, when it all comes down to the bottom line, I have little to complain about (yea my W is probably leaving me, but she's being sensitive about it and I have great kids and a whole slew of other things to be grateful for).... but it takes energy and work.... but that's what life's about so I think I'll just go to bed and catch you in the morning! However.... before I hit the pillow...<P>MMT, every time I think I've got a handle on your personality, another facet emerges. I like complicated yet 'down to earth' people, and you are far more complex than you appear at the outset. I know one challenge my spouse has had to deal with is that I am (to be blunt) not your average guy. Living with a 'unique in a good way' individual has got to have its challenges.... and I bet you and I share some common problems in that we are 'wired' differently than the average guy.<P>And that applies to you too Mark. And the way you and Julia are handling this is great.... yes there's pain and sadness.... but that's on the path to the other side and you're both going down that path and supporting each other as you make this difficult split. You both are a shining example of how to deal with this all honorably.... despite the obvious problems that will not be resolved. If there was a medal for what you're doing I'd nominate you for one in a minute!<P>Theo, way to go!!! (hehehehe)<P>OK Kim, you now have the power of the smilies... I fear for our safety... plus you're a member (with seniority!).... what's the world coming to!<P>Kate, I agree with your post (especially the part about that until you have kids, you just don't understand what the term 'gender differences' really means....). I assume the 'Divorce support group' is the beneficiary of your insurance policies??? (what.... NO? Well then its on your head when the Vega bursts into flames!!!)<P>Sweet dreams.... Chuck <BR>

Now you've got me curious, Chuck. Just <I>exactly</I> how do you see yourself as "wired differently"?

Jeez Kate, I knew I shouldn't have logged in a after a glass of wine last night......<P>For me, I test really high on IQ, and my best friend from HS days (who is still my best friend) is basically off the scale. I joined MENSA (the high IQ group) and talk about a bunch of dysfunctional folk! Our type can apparently be a bit of a challenge to be married to....<P>BTW, I think the only thing that an IQ test reflects is that you're good at IQ tests.... not that you're necessarily 'smart'. But the complexity issue is certainly there among many... and a mismatch between spouses and their ability to understand their partner on multiple levels is a potential source of troubles...<P>And I think a disproportionate number of folk in the software business fit a similar profile (hello Mark!), or enterpreneurs (Hello, MMT!). <P>Now I will state once again for the record, you are one of the most sensible women I've run into..... so I'd love to hear your take on this....

I'm not so sure I want to be thought of as the epitome of "sensibleness"--sorta conjures up an image of a stereotypical librarian type with sensible, orthopedic shoes... <P>I agree that having a high IQ doesn't guarantee that one has anything more than a great ability to take IQ tests--though I think people with high IQ's tend to be "smart" in an intellectual sense. But that says nothing about emotional maturity, having common sense, being moral, etc. <P>I can only speak from personal experience: my husband is, by any measure, EXTREMELY smart, but he also has very good people skills and has a wonderful sense of humor--I'm not the only one who thinks he's about the wittiest person they've ever met. (Don't worry--he's not perfect!)<P>My oldest son is also very bright--the type who started reading at age 2 1/2. But he just doesn't have the skills to really get along with other people and has always been like this--I could sense from the time he was about 3 that he was kind of an oddball and was going to have a hard time fitting in. But is it the braininess, per se, or something else that inhibits his social skills? I don't know. <P>I'm not sure what my point is...maybe that a high IQ can sometimes be a disadvantage socially if you truly can't understand how average people "think," but it doesn't HAVE to be. And certainly there are people all over the IQ scale who have problems relating to other people.

Alright. I had another little relationship "triumph" today that I want to document, as much for my sake as for anyone else it can help. (Sometimes I feel as if I'm on a long march seeking marital bliss, and have to battle little squirmishes along the way!)<P>Background: About 2 years ago I became aware that I was actually entering into those lovely "pre-menopausal" years and that middle-age was creeping up. No huge big deal...except that H at this time sort of developed a crush (that may be too strong a word) on a 24 year old graduate student. Now, he works with students all the time (because of his job) and it was VERY unlike him to act like he did, as he is generally the sort of man who is more attracted to women closer to his age. (He also is EXTREMELY careful not to do anything that could be construed as sexual harrassment, etc.) And actually, NOTHING happened, but my antenni went up and I knew that something wasn't quite...right...with their relationship. (I really believe that women can just sort of sense these things--but that's another topic!) She was married, actually, but, because her father had abandoned the family when she was 2, was, I came to believe, sort of emotionally needy, and would "glom on" to older men--sort of "daddy figures." She's also quite good looking, and is actually a nice person--I didn't see her as having real "designs" on my H, but I just KNEW it had the potential to get sort of...weird...down the road.<P>I threw out a few hints to H--didn't want to come across as the super-jealous type--and when that didn't work became a little more firm about my expectations that he would ease off a bit with her. Bottom line was that after a few months he really did "back off," as he came to see that my intuition had been correct...and then she started hanging out with ANOTHER professor who was old enough to be her father.<P>End of story? Well, no. Chuck keeps talking about how "sensible" I am, but in "real life"...I don't know. For some reason every few months I would feel the need to rehash the whole thing--I would get depressed, spinning fantasies of how, if I hadn't done anything, they'd be practically married by now...totally dumb. Well, last night for some reason I was in that mood, like we had to go through the whole damn thing again and "talk it out," as if H had practically had an affair with her. Poor H--I can hear him shouting within his head, "JUST TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO SAY TO HAVE YOU SHUT UP ABOUT HER! I'LL SAY IT! I'LL SAY IT!"<P>Then this morning I started thinking, "WHY do I keep bringing this up?! What is the point?" And...bingo...I figured it out. Somehow HER and any issues I have about growing older have become linked in my mind. So when I bring her up, I'm NOT saying (mentally) to my H: "How could you DARE to find her so attractive?"--it's more like: "Please assure me that you find me attractive and sexy." Man---it's like a fog lifted and I could understand why I kept bringing up such an unprofitable subject for discussion whenever I was feeling "old"--like after talking to the insurance guy about retirement last night! I sent H an email and basically said what I've said here, and he was great--and also, I think, pretty relieved that my motivation wasn't to make him pay and pay and pay forever for having the nerve to find a graduate student attractive and for getting a little caught up in a fantasy relationship.<P>Now I'm starting to think of any repeated, unprofitable discussions we may be having---those problems that never seem to get resolved because we keep saying the same things over and over. Maybe what we're arguing over isn't really what we think we're arguing over. I'm going to try to think a little more deeply about what--EXACTLY--my motivation is: "Is this actually an argument about X, or am I trying to communicate something else? And could I be clearer?"<P>Well, it's all pretty basic and I admit it really isn't any revelation, but sometimes you get so used to the ruts in your relationship that it's hard to stand back and see what is really going on. I need to do that more.<p>[This message has been edited by KateB (edited April 28, 2000).]

Kate great sharing. I am sure I do a bit {great bunch according to my wife} of the same hashing over and over. At time I know I am afraid to bring up the real issue, other times I think I have hidden the real stuff even from myself. Thank you Chuck for the good words. Yes Chuck, I have called it our ways and or personalities, our need in business to take the bull by the horns etc., but I think IQ and learning has some to do with it. Maybe even our raising as they say, we are to get things done and make decisions and we will do it. At home we need to wear a different hat. I just feel if I was to poor to have a Vega I can not afford two Hats. LOL We'll see if I change now, I think I sold my business today and will be working for some one in the transition for a year. Scary time for me and a first in 20 + years. What hats do I wear now and how will I be at home? No more free time to be Mr. take and pick up kids etc. The night before todays negotiations my wife and I were just about on the walk out split up stage again as she felt I would never give it up or make a change {wouldn't give up my baby}. I worked on this one for about two years and talked with a few others. Talk about a few months of stress in our lives with all we have been going through. Yes Chuck when it comes to women IQ is my word...Ignorant Quesser I guess. Yes it is a gender thing, I genderly am a few days late and a few steps to far back unless I am way toooo far ahead. I sure do try though. LOL

Hey, MMT....congrats on the business deal. Just think of the huge step Mark took by moving and look at your "move" as a step towards changing things for the better at home. Don't dwell on each little bump and hurdle, but keep your eye on the big picture and how bright the future looks. You're still together, and you ARE making things happen. Change is always scary (don't we all know), but change is necessary or life becomes stale. I'm really happy for you. Now you be happy for you too!

Back on Kate and Chuck's discussion, this just popped in my head while I was reading your comments. Kate, isn't it unsettling how you can lose control and start spewing irrationally at the drop of a hat? It took me years to figure this one out, but I still can't control it. I'm better now than I ever was, but it must be a predominantly "female" thing. (No....not PMS thing!! LOL) I would hold things in so long to avoid conflict (because there was no discussion in my home anyway), but I would get to the point where it would all boil over. I'd find myself ranting about nothing in frustration to my STBX, while he stool there at my mercy, just waiting for it to end. I'd keep willing my mouth to stop and let me shut up, but it would go on and on for minutes that seemed like hours. Afterwards, I would sometimes crack up and apologize to him, claiming I was invaded by aliens. I only started asking my female friends about this in the last few years and realized that it wasn't just me! Phew!!

One last post and then I'm off for my workout and then car shopping. (Can't be late.....my mom still could ground me! LOL)<P>Just wanted to share my adventure from last night since I was going on and on about what I was going to find at the video store! LOL Well, I went too early and missed the crowd, plus I had my son with me. (No, Kate, they didn't have Sleuth....I settled for Brad Pitt in Fight Club.) After the video store, we went to get gas. It's a huge, busy intersection, but we were right by the street. Somebody beeped their horn (the kind where they see someone they know...not using the horn for what it's purpose is.) I didn't look up or pay attention but pretended it was intended for me anyway! LOL When we got home and my STBX came over to pick up our son, he told me it was him beeping at us. I thought, geez, of all people to be beeped at by!! Well, it did get a little better. Afer they left, I went and picked up some Chinese for myself (almond chicken, cold Michelob Lite, and Brad Pitt.....an almost perfect evening). While I was waiting for my food, a cute guy came in and placed an order and had a seat with me on the "waiting bench". We chatted for the 5 minutes or so it took for our food to get there. No big deal, but made me feel good. <P>Have a great day, everyone!!

KimP,<BR>I've been divorced for about a year now and haven't really dated. I did date someone briefly a couple of months after my divorce, but realized I wasn't ready. <P>I also realized that there is no way that I could have a casual relationship that involves sex these days. I've learned way,way too much about STD's to feel safe, even with condoms and such. I've been very lonely at times too. My ex and I used to be joined at the hip at one time. <P>I'm 35 and feel like I'm in some wierd age limbo. Guys in their 20's looking for their "older woman" experience come on to me, and guys who are in their late 40's see me as some younger woman. The guys my own age seem to be after the mid-twenties breeding prospects (no offense to you moms out there).<P>I don't look my age. I get carded all of the time when I buy alcohol. Neighbors say I look like I'm in my mid twenties (another reason why guys in their twenties hit on me). <P>Anyway, lots of times I feel like prey. I'm sure in 10 yrs or so I'll remember these days fondly, but right now it kinda sucks. I'm happy with my looks and all, but I'd really like to believe that guys see more than just T and A on me. I used to give guys the 'ol middle finger who honked at me, or said stuff to me out of their car windows. To me it feels intrusive. I know some guys think it's cute, but it makes me feel like a piece of meat.<P><BR>To my ex, I was his scandanavian dream woman, but I never felt like he really appreciated ME, my soul, dreams, etc. I don't think it is a compliment when guys are attracted to my looks. I was just born this way. It doesn't say anything about my heart, courage, trustworthiness, love, nothing. <P>

Kim, YEA I'm married to one of those mouth spewers {women I mean}. LOL Thanks for the congrads. Our hope has been to get moved to N Cal. or Oregon so now we are back on a mutual search. I just feel at times a person can keep enough stuff going the little husband wife depth, bonding, or getting to know one another never gets accomplished. What is the two of us when we are cooped up in the tent in the woods or get locked in the out house. What is us when kids are gone and we have to set looking at each other when snowed in for a week with no power. Have we ever slowed down enough to find the true us? What happens when like Kate we realize we still have places that the mask has never been lifted? I am sure we all have those areas within us. Yes Kate and I have reached 40+ {still look in our 30's but} and start realizing we want it together right or to get dumped so we can find those we can SORTA soul mate with. A scary time. I guess all of us no mater what age are still in scary times. Do I date, do I like them to honk, do I try to save this marriage, do I get it over with...do I, do I, do I. I just want to love and be loved. I want it all to be for life, now do I have what it takes to make it last, do they have what it take to see the real me. Can we each handle each others fears and be open enough to let one another know what fears we each have? This is not spewing or venting I will have you know! Kim I do demand a few days a month of equal PMS by me. Pissy Male Sh_t, You expect it and you got it baby. LOL We are equal I'll Have you know. LOL TheStudent, I am sorry we men do tend at times to put our wife as the dream woman. I can see where women think it is degrading, but from a man's perspective it allows us to see only them {our wife} and not have to look too much at others. Yes we worship our wife's body and want to concentrate on parts. Yes we do act like we want them to be our whore, and our sex goddess. That part should be flattering in our minds as we want them instead of the hundreds out there available trying to catch us and get us away from our wives. Therefore we are turning our thoughts to or wife rather than straying and we some way think she will love us for it. After all she did want worshiped before we married her. By the same token, some of us want her to be a lady around our friends and a woman they would die to have for theirs. We want them to be the perfect MOM and yet give us husbands their undivided attention. I don't see where that would be all that hard do you? LOL I agree we forget that once married a woman changes as does a man and what was drawing becomes degrading. I just don't know how we get over these hurdles. Sorry women, but I do feel we as men degrade with some of our flattery. I myself just hope and pray I keep my desires directed to my wife, {and she learns I want to worship her} but I do see where many belittle women with their meat market actions. I am very sorry for that, them and you.

Hi TheStudent! I see what you're saying about "attention" from men. To me there are at least 2 types: the "leering" sort where you feel almost unclean--that you're being stripped down to a couple of body parts and that you as a <B>real person</B> don't exist. (Which includes most cat calls and crude remarks, whistling, etc. from strangers--I'm not sure that some men really understand what a turn-off that is to many women.)<P>But there's a nice sort of attention, too, when you sense that a man finds you attractive in a fuller sense--your looks, personality--the whole package appeals to him. I'll take as much of that kind of attention as I can get, and it can "make my day" when I get it. Of course, the <B>ultimate</B> high is when my husband, by his words or actions communicates this. <P>MMT: Wow! You've been very communicative lately! I join with the others in hoping your new job will be a wonderful "adventure" for you. Change can be scary though, don't you think? I have a feeling it will all work out well for you. You've come up with some good insights about what makes you "tick." If you can get a good bead on <B>that</B> then the odds are surely better for your being able to figure out how to get your marriage back on track. And it sounds as if you are really sincere about trying to figure out what makes your wife "tick"--any man who would carry his wife's emotional needs questionnaire in his wallet has my vote for TRYING!! (But I'm with Kim: you gotta take it out and READ it every so often!! LOL)

Kate me read you know better than that. My guys say I can neither read nor write. They don't let me touch paper hardly except to sign a paycheck. Why would I change now. "smirk" I have read it so much I almost have it memorized, but just don't seem to always get it right or at times don't even care to try. I'll do better I promise maybeeee.

Hi guys, <P>Long day for me, and a good one. Actually had some sincere flirts from my STBX. <P>Kate, as usual you still amaze me with your sensibility! Yes, you are like all the women I know.... but you have the ability to step back and realize what's going on. And likewise you Kim.... and from a male perspective this is important stuff... the difference between having a happy amrriage and one with lots of problems. So consider yourselves pretty special, you are!<P>Insofar as the IQ discussion, every soul on this earth is unique.... and the key is finding the unique ones who are compatible with our own special styles...<P>MMT, great news on selling the business! That is a goal I have and have tried to accomplish for about 6 years now, unsuccessfully. Remember to keep focused until the papers are signed, and don't let closing take more than 60 days, 90 at the outside. (I've sold once before, only to have it fall through on a lengthy closing...). You have reached a dream..... when I started my business I didn;t realize I was arranging a job for myself that I cannot quit. When you add up the employees, spouses, kids, etc. whose livelyhood depends on your keeping things going, it becomes a trap of sorts.... there's just too many who depend on you to simply be able to even consider walking away. I guess that's a topic unto itself. Anyways, good luck!<P>Well, just had someone pull in the driveway... catch you all later!<P>Chuck<P>PS: Welcome Student!, I'll have more to say later... <p>[This message has been edited by chuckb (edited April 29, 2000).]

Well the oldest kid is back home safe and sound.... and had a good chat with her boyfriend's dad, who has become a good friend. <P>I usually post from my work computer.. but here at home with 'computer smart' kids I always delete the history etc. after I'm on this site. Plus I don't need them looking over my shoulder while posting! While my W knows I'm involved in an internet based support group and supports it, I'm not quite ready to let her or my kids peruse this journal of sorts, so weekend posting is always an adventure! (and everyone has gone to bed now, so 'it's safe to post!')<P>OK, TheStudent has opened a lively can of worms! Kate, I think you made a good point in that there is 'bad' attention and 'good' attention. And Kim, your experience at the the restaurant was a classic example of a 'good' experience, enjoy them, they're not a common commodity!<P>Last week when stranded at the airport for a good eight hours, I was in the bar having a snack and having a couple drinks in hope of inducing some sleep for the four hours I had to wait til the next plane, when this gorgeous blond proceeded to walk into the place, look around (and I'll be honest, I was looking at her and enjoying myself, albeit discretely)... Next thing I know she's plopping her bags next to mine, sitting down next to me, looks at my table and sees I've got a couple empty plates, and says to me, 'how ya doing? What's good here, I'm starved and need to get food in me.... I'm drunk!'<BR> <BR>Well, it turns out she was an accounting professional with one of the big 6, and her clients had taken her out to lunch and proceeded to, in my opinion, take advantage of the situation and get her 3 sheets to the wind. She had the good sense to announce she had to catch a plane... and escape by cab to the airport even though her flight's boarding was still several hours away. Why she chose to sit next to me I don't know.... but I've noticed since I've grown long hair, I get immediate respect when I'm in a conservative suit. People are strange, yet predictable (and I am never cutting my hair short again!)<P>So, this woman proceeded to ask me all sorts of questions... all of which focused around whether a good looking blonde can succeed in business without being considered a b*itch (her words, not mine). My response was a qualified yes (yes, but life is not fair.... and its a harder road than it is for others). <P>But the real issue is this whole thing about how society has evolved to elevate women with a certain look to be sex goddesses, and that society (men especially) treat that type of woman differently and unfairly. The airport blond summed it up.... if she was successful.... she felt it was immediately assumed that she was either a whore (using her looks to succeed) or a b*tch (I think this is because society has a problem with accepting competency and great 'looks' in the same breath).<P>So TheStudent is absolutely not imagining things, indeed she is in a very tough spot. The sort of problems that face a 'great looking' female are present in everything, job, love, and so forth.<P>A part of my job has involved creating a 'public image' and 15 years ago I had a certain degree of fame... which I generally now keep hidden except for business purposes (and don't intend to discuss it here.... not that's its anything to get all excited about, mind you). But a lesson I learned was that the 'guy on the street' had all sorts or preconceived notions about me, and I would get all sorts of attention that frankly was annoying.<P>I deliberately went searching for that fame back then, so who am I to complain? But note that I now live in the country and avoid my old fame.<P>TheStudent (jeez I wish we had a better, more humane way to refer to you!) didn't ask for the attention she gets, nor can she escape it (like I have been able to). She has no real choice in certain things.<P>So, student..., I sympathize with you and can only offer the following observations. You are defined solely by your own opinion of yourself, and blow off the crap from those around you that is just that: 'crap'. I think that we're put on this earth in the form and with the talents we have for a reason.... and that's something to keep in mind as things evolve. I'm always asking myself, 'what is the lesson I'm supposed to be learning?'. Don't worry so much about the fact that people respond to you the way they do, instead focus on the personal issues that concern you and how, maybe the cards you were dealt have something to do with addressing those issues. I know this is generic babble, but it also is an approach that seems to work pretty well for me. Usually when we're being hit over the head with something.... I believe its for a reason that's in the grander scheme of things. <P>BTW, I'm of Scandanavian roots and the majority of females in my greater family tend to be knockouts..... so I have a cultural interest in being supportive.<P>OK, it's late and I'm babbling and should probaby delete all of this, but instead I'll hit the 'submit reply' button.... sweet dreams!<P>

Hmmmm. I pretty much agree with lots you've said here, Chuck, but somehow the "plight" of "gorgeous blondes" doesn't move my heart enough to want to add them to my prayer request list... <P>Most ALL women who want to "move up" in previously male-dominated professions are going to run into the b*tch thing--some men just find strong, self-confident women very alarming.<P>And for gorgeous women...well, I'm certainly not speaking from experience here, since I think of myself as good-looking in a basically average sort of way. I think there is an extra effort they have to make to be taken seriously sometimes, but surely there are compensations that outweigh some of the negatives? I mean, by definition, very good-looking people appeal visually to others, and that can't always be a drawback. <P>As you mentioned--most all of us have SOMETHING to overcome and I'd sure take on the burden of being "too beautiful" over lots of others, including ugliness, obesity, deformity...I mean, shoot, when you think about the alternatives, being <B>too</B> good looking doesn't seem so earth-shattering. I'm <B>not</B> saying there isn't a down side to extreme good looks, including the way the opposite sex views/treats you, just that so many other people have to contend with so much worse in that department.<P>I also think it's legitimate to ask about just how much work she's putting into her appearance. Here I can imagine some people appalled that I can bring this up--like I'm questioning how a rape victim was dressed or something. However, since many women use hair, makeup, and clothing IN PART (qualifier!) to attract male attention, those who spend lots of time with the careful application of makeup and selection of figure-enhancing clothes presumably WANT to attract attention to their physical beauty, right? Now, I could be wrong, but I suspect one reason you classed this woman as "gorgeous" was that all these "enhancements" were in place. (Please, oh please don't tell me she was one of those fresh-scrubbed beauties with no makeup, hair just pulled back in a simple ponytail, wearing slightly baggy, non-descript clothing--because then my lovely theory lies in tatters...!)<P>I've noticed there is a type of woman who goes the whole nine yards in terms of making herself physically attractive, then almost seems to resent the attention she receives--not a common type, but I've met a few and figure something complicated is going on with them, psychologically.<P>I guess in a way I class the problems of the "too beautiful" with those of the "too rich," who have to contend with wondering if they are liked for themselves or their money. It's an interesting problem, but somehow doesn't elicit especially strong sympathy from me. (And may, of course, be eliciting some unconscious...have to be honest...envy.)

Well, was I b*tchy enough myself? Just want to clarify, TheStudent, I was absolutely NOT thinking of you when I asked how Chuck's airport blonde was dressed, etc. And I'm not intimating that you're "asking for" male attention--that seemed clear to me from your post.<P>My only real experience with lots of excessive "male attention" was when I was young and living in Peru. Partly because I looked very different from most Peruvians (light hair, blue eyes, etc) men would whistle, sidle up to me and whisper things, etc. It got to be damned annoying and embarrassing, too and made me feel very vulnerable about going out in crowded places without my husband along to sort of protect me from it all. (An aside: once a man said something to me I didn't understand--my Spanish wasn't all that great. After looking in a dictionary, etc, I figured out he had said, "I want to fill your pillow with chocolates!" I guess it was a Peruvian pick up line, but, frankly it didn't do much for me.)<P>So it's not that I'm completely hard-hearted about the problems beautiful women have--it's just somewhat difficult for me to get as worked up as I would about other "disabilities" I guess. My take on this whole thing is probably "tainted," anyway, since I secretly would like MORE attention than I get at this stage of my life... <P>[This message has been edited by KateB (edited April 30, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by KateB (edited April 30, 2000).]

Kate, I'm sorry I can't give more attention to this post, but my attention is all given to you. LOL I want to fill your pillow with fiber fill and foam {no annoying feathers for this kid} as I know how lumpy and melting chocolates can be. I do agree with the signals we send with our choices of what we wear etc. Many "people" reek with look and notice me so I can slap the padidle out of you. I Love a beautiful woman as much as any man, and I like pretty women. I do despise a "look at me" woman. I am also happy my desired beautiful women don't fit the norm of other guys. I like dark hair, small chested and maybe a little more body weight than the slim trim look. I like conservatively dressed and or even to the point of proffessional looking woman. OF course at home for my personal satisfaction, all this cover up is out the window on the dressing part. Blush Blush Therefore Kate, I like you feel many can draw attention to themselves knowingly or not. The women I speak of usually draw OOh's instead of cat calls. Of course then you have men that would just cat call, and I have seen them cat call a man who they see from the back that has long hair, they get imbarrassed {only a little} when a bearded person turns around. Those guys and the women they pick up deserve each other. For the women here who are worried about having to get back into life, I hope they overlook the jerks and remember there has to be 10 or 15 good men left in the world. LOL The men who are good possibly will be just as afraid of entering the new world and both parties will be a bit standoffish, and all will do the ugly duck type dance while they learn to trust again. While we are on the subject I would like to bring up the brazen attitude women have taken in this day and age. I have them approach me with lets get together statements. I've had some in front of my wife indicate they would take me off her hands and etc. It does help my self esteem and make my wife a bit more appreciative, but it is hard to believe we have gotten to where a ring and marriage means nothing, not to mention the first few times one has a hard time explaining to your wife that you don't know them. Yes men do have the same problems, only different. I think many times we are a bit more easly swayed to the woman's beguiling especially when our wife is being stand-offish. Again I ask if I have a week of PMS and a week of monthly does it mean I have 6 months of no sex out of every 12 months. We as men must fill in 3 to 5 of those months as we will never get them back. We men sorta think that way and have a very hard time not wanting to act on an offer. I think a man feels wanted and attractive with sex where a woman can be told she is wanted and attractive with words and romance. Men are taught and learn, we don't figure the woman out, therefore we accept her mind as her and don't dwell on it. I think we then feel if we tell her she has a good mind or accept her for who she is we are insulting her. To belittle a woman would be to bring her to the level of the men we associate with, and we feel at times to say she has those qualities could get us slapped. Hope I'm kinda right and would like some input from others.