To All,
<br>I started a new thread (topic #4) since we have been growing steadily. I hope everyone is doing fine. My weekend was pretty bad. Open conversation with my wife has hurt tremendously. She has finally opened up that she has not felt love for me for several years. She said that she resents my acceptence of responsibility outside our home. When friends ask for help, I am usually the first one there. She feels that I should have been taking care of her instead of being outside. She said she wanted me to fight MORE with her about important issues (I admit I avoided most conflicts). But, in all arguments we had, she would never give in. So, I think she is reaching for excuses why she is not in love with me. She does not like to say I LOVE YOU, or be intimate, because she does not want to give me false hope.
<br>She said she probably would have left years ago if she did not feel she was letting her mother down.
<br>I told her that we have to tell the kids that we are having problems. She is against this, but I insisted on it. She feels that she knows where we are headed (divorce) and wants to avoid the problems with the kids.
<br>She thinks I will eventually tell the kids about her affair and try to turn them against her. I can't get through to her that doing that would serve no one, especially the kids.
<br>Yesterday, she lost her temper with my daughter (13). Really scared the s--t out of my daughter. I had to send her(daughter) to her room, and let my wife know what she was doing. I felt she was venting at the kid for feelings she felt for me.
<br>The rest of the day she was quiet and moody. Last night, she asked if she could go away for a few days. She said she needed a break. I will arrange with work to work from home, so she can take off. I don't know where. When it comes time, I will ask her. I will also let her know that I would rather her not leave.
<br>I think, if not for what she thinks her family and friends might say, she would want to leave me and the kids. She said she never wanted to be a Stay-At-Home mom, but was afraid of telling anyone for what they might say about her. She could not even tell me.
<br>How is it that even through all of this, I still love her? How, after being hurt so much, do I still want her as my wife? I have to admit, that some of it is because we have a family to think about. But, mostly it is because I want her back. I hope I do not give up this feeling.
<br>

Bill,
<br>This stuff is so heart rending. The biggest thing for me is to finally see just how big a difference there is between men and women.
<br>It is still beyond my comprehension how so many of them just want to get up and leave and entire family based on things like needing space, finding themselves and so on, and all the while keeping it inside for years until they finally spring it on you. I just don't get it. And I personally know other couples, one of which the husband was providing well for them, where the wife just up and leaves. No trying to work it out, no counseling, nothing. Just leaves. I'd be lying if I said it didn't anger me.
<br>Why do we still love them in spite of this? Don't really know. As men the things that define us come from outside us so I think it's harder for us to let things go. I think the average man looks at a divorce (I know I do) as a failure of colossal proportions and a rending of heart and life that shouts out his failure.
<p>In my own case my wife and I drove up to Virginia over the week end. We didn't do anything special. We just got a hotel room, went out to dinner, browsed through a mall and bought some music then went back to the hotel. Just being alone together was all I was looking for no matter what we did. It gave us a chance to talk though we didn't talk about marital problems.
<br>Now it's back home and back to work. I don't know what this week end did for us. Things still appear outwardly the same. My wife still does not show a lot of affection, though I have to say that sex Friday night, Saturday night and Sunday morning really blew me away. We haven't done anything like that in years.
<br>My biggest fear is that I will keep doing everything I can to help my wife feel that she can trust me to be the man she needs and yet it will all, after great expenditures of energy on my part, come to nothing. She will still end up wanting to go. But that's a paralyzing thought. I have to keep trying.
<br>Will you wife see or talk to anyone about getting help? Or is she one of those who says it's pretty much hopeless?
<br>I have to say that even though I fully acknowledge my guilt in neglecting my wife in all these important areas over the years I find it extremely difficult to deal with the female characteristic of keeping eveything in and telling you things like they would have left years ago if this or that. I believe that the man should carry the biggest part of the responsibilty for maintaining a healthy marriage, but she has to do something. We can't read minds.

Bill,
<br>Your last paragragh says it all. It's strange how we can withstand the pain and still be "in love" with our wives. I hope that my feelings for my wife never change as well. The family is important and I often wonder if we didn't have a child, if I would have held on this long. Probably not. I'm sure my wife would have left sooner also. I guess you and I and many other spouses here are the old fashion types and believe in "till death do us part".
<br>Our relationship also experienced an affair on her part - more of an emotional affair with someone who lives about 3,000 miles away. An old boyfriend she turned to when she was at her lowest point with me. That contact lasted for almost a year before I found out and it has continued off and on. She says that they are at a point now of just good friends because she knows nothing can come of it because of the distance. What a terrible excuse to hear. This was and is so hard to cope with, as I'm sure your aware. But, I too, still love my wife with all my heart and want her love and devotion in return.
<br>I'm hoping that a trial separation will show her that she has a chance of losing alot. It's like jumping off a cliff and hoping you land in the river below and not on the rocky shore. I can't imaging not living in the same house with my family, but it's something that she feels she wants to experience. Until I give it to her, she will continue to have this want.
<br>Your not alone, Bill.
<br>I know that doesn't really help.
<br>I wish there was something that could help us all.
<br>Greg

Hello everyone,
<p>I've posted here before, but haven't replied for some time. I've been working on my problems with my marriage(see previous posts). Just a few observations. My hat goes off to those that still want to save their marriage after having an affair. To me that is the most devestating thing a spouse can do to the other. What ever happened to vows, (promises if you will)? Whatever happened to commitment? I'm not sure I could ever recover from that.
<br>As far as men and women dealing with things differently, I couldn't have said it better. My wife won't talk about our problems. She won't see a counselor with me. She didn't want to tell our children that we were having problems, but I insisted that she take responsibility for doing what she is doing. I have accepted my part of our problems, and tried very hard to change them and to make ammends. But I will not relive them over and over. We had a wonderful marriage for 23+ years, then she became involved in a 12 step program and the woman I fell in love disappeared. In her place was an automaton, brainwashed into believing that she couldn't live with someone she used drugs with, (we've been clean for 3 1/2 years), and that she is the only person that matters, and that she has to do whatever it takes for her to be clean, including leaving her marriage, her family unit, or her children, which she did.
<br>We see each other everyday, and she insists that she doesn't want a divorce and that she isn't interested in anyone else. So I continue to be patient, and long for the day when we can rebuild our lives. She won't be intimate with me, but when she is depressed or upset, she comes to me for comfort in the form of hugs and kisses, but won't allow herself to go any further. I, too am at a loss as what I should do, and for how long. As a man, I have needs, but I seem to only desire my wife. We had a terrific sex life our whole marriage.
<br>Whew..... Enough of all that.
<p>I'm not sure if any of this helps anyone, but I try. If anyone has any advice for me I would accept it gratefully.
<p>In Friendship,
<p>John

Bruce,
<br>I dont know if all women are so different. Unfortunately, the wives of those of us posting here have that much in common. It would be easy to say that ALL of them are like this. I guess for us, it does not matter how many. It's just the one that counts.
<br>I also wonder why they think things will be better for them elsewhere. They already have a loving husband who is proving he will do ANYTHING for them. A home, family and stability. Maybe the stability scares them?
<br>It's great that you and your wife got to go away for a few days. Besides enjoying yourselves, it sounds like a great tension reliever. My wife is so tense and uptight when I am home with her. She does not enjoy being with me for fear of SOMETHING.
<br>She is already seeing a therapist. I have suggested (and so has her therapist) some anti-depressent medication for temporary relief. But, she is totally against it.
<br>She wants to try to stay together, sometimes. Other times she talks about the hopelessness of her feelings. She sometimes feels she will never love again, at all.
<br>I also accept the responsibility in neglecting my wife over the years. But, she never expressed any need for anything I did not give. The "reading their minds" comment has been said by me over and over again. But, she feels she never HAD TO say anything. So GUILT has nothing to do with it. Neither of us spoke our true feelings about a lot of things. Like you said, women hold this GRUDGE about things, while men tend to forgive and forget fairly easily.
<br>I don't know if this has any relevence, but my wife reads a lot of romance novels. The bestseller ones. I know that the men/husbands in these that the women wind up with are letter perfect, totally passionate, and extremely romantic. I often wonder if they have anything to do with my wife's current attitude.
<p>Greg,
<br>I feel for you regarding you wife's emotional relationship with her old boyfriend. At least in my case her affair was extremely short. She gave me the reasons she did it, and also assures me that there is nothing there. Never really was.
<br>I have read that trial separations might give the spouse a false impression of what life would be like after divorce. There are very little monetary issues. And, she always has some place to fall back on. It's like test driving a new car. Great for the ride. But it's not until later you find out about how it guzzles gas, and other problems. I also personally feel that if she is away, you have less chance of showing her your love. It is probably different for everyone. And, like I said, my wife now says she needs to get away for a short while. I hope short (a few days) is all.
<p>John,
<br>Don't think that the automiton attitude is just in your situation. For most of the time, my wife just "goes through the motions" of her daily activities. Basically shut down to me. Just stay nearby and hope that she will one-day open her eyes to you. The intimacy has totally left my marriage. She never needs hugs or kisses, and even has problems giving them to the kids. She gives me a hug and kiss when I need it, but she made it clear that she does not want to give me the WRONG idea.
<p>I think each one of us should be able to hold our heads up for what we are trying to accomplish. The easy way out would be to leave, or let them go. Persevere.

Bill,
<br>I'd like to second you that each of us here can hold our heads up. As guilty as I have felt for what I've contributed to my wife's discontent I also know that my efforts at recociliation are genuine and that my mistakes were those of ignorance and selfishness, not intentional harm. I will do what I have to to keep my family intact.
<p>I can't tell you how much admiration I have for some of the others here who have cases worse than mine. John, for example, has had to kick a drug habit on top of marital problems. My hat is off to everyone here.

In my case, my SO has left for the OW, so he isn't really giving me much chance in the decision making.
<p>It's very hard when your friends tell you to just get on with your life, etc.
<br>I know - at least for me - I have to give it my best shot. That makes me feel good about me. If I do all that I can do, and it doesn't work, then it wasn't meant to be, and hopefully there will be someone else out there to appreciate all that I have now learned about healthy relationships.
<p>It's difficult right now - feeling that my SO is being so selfish. He isn't learning anything right now - just enjoying the moment, and not looking at the pain he is causing so many people. Addiction!
<p>So, in the meantime, I will learn and do all that I can in a healthy way. And maybe he is learning in his own way - much as I hate it right now. I only wonder if he has to hit bottom to figure it out.
<p>The one interesting thing I have seen on this forum, is that it seems that it is the women who see the light, and return. I wonder how many men have found that the grass wasn't always greener after they have left, and return to work on the relationship?
<br>Sara
<br>

I have been reading these threads and find it interesting that the men posting here have exactly the opposite experience in their relationships as I have in mine. By that I mean their wives don't communicate! My husband is the one who says he's been unhappy for more than two years and has never communicated to me how he felt. I have expressed my frustrations (okay, nagging, angry outbursts, etc. not good but better than no communication at all) but he has never indicated that he has been so unhappy he might consider leaving ... until now.
<p>And now, as your wives have done to you, he says it is too late to fix things.
<p>Believe me - I understand and empathize with your pain. I am feeling it all myself.
<p>I also echo Sara's question: I wonder how many men come to their senses after leaving their wives and return to them ...?
<p>terri

terri, sara
<br>I am also having the opposite experience compared with the men on this forum. My husband has been becoming more unhappy over the last few years, and the first he told me about it was when he said he no longer loved me. At least he has not had an affair.
<br>I have now moved out of our home, and things do seem to be getting better. He tells me to think of it as a new start for both of us. I moved out 3 days ago, and I have spent time with him every day since then.
<br>He has even been more affectionate (he kissed me on the cheek without being asked). It's not much, but it's a start.
<br>3 times over the weekend, I said 'I love you', and he said it back. He said it was just a habit, learned behaviour, and that nothing had changed and we laughed it off as a joke. However, it does give me hope. I hope I'm not wrong.

wow,l was thinking the SAME thing the ladies here were. l am also on the opposite side of the coin with them. My H seems so much like bruce,etc here,with the exception that they have tried to change. ln a way,l can truly relate to what the wives felt like before they strayed(not condoning what they did though) ln my case,after so many yrs of feeling like l was trying so hard and he wasn't, l just kind of gave up too,and lived with it,thinking it is just his personality and l can't change him. l never feared he'd have an affair though,because he just didn't seem the *type.(l'll bet we all say that)
<br> Anyway, since this all came out he hasn't changed or even tried. He cries whenever we do discuss things and says he has hurt me so bad over and over and has been so mean to me for years and years and doesn't know why, but just can't stop.He thinks it means he doesn't love me enough. He feels he mentally abuses me,even though l assured him up until this affair things were not that bad,but yet he doesn't make any effort to TRY to be more aware like bruce,etc has done. He says over and over it is all him and not me,but says he just can't help it.
<br> . As a matter of fact,he hasn't spoken to me in 3 days because for the first time on sat l finally blew up and said some mean things about his affair. Sure the things l said were true and maybe justified,but still l felt horrible after. l think l just held it in for so long, and sooner or later l was going to blow. lt was our anniversary and considering he didn't even acknowledge it,l think had a big part in my blow-up,but like l said it was the FIRST l ever had about this and he started it by complaining about a $100 phone bill l had, which l countered that it was only due to the affiar that l had to talk to my best friend everyday to keep me from going nuts.It went from there.He has been back from Korea for 3 months now.(his affair was with a coworker over there) and he is constantly trying to pick fights which up until then l totally avoided. l had been trying sooo hard to show him l forgive him and want to move on in our marriage. We don't talk too well,but l have poured my heart and soul out to him in really long letters,which we even went over together and each time he cried throughout. He said of course it is the best for the kids if we stay together,but he doesnt think it is for me. He didn't say what is best for him.
<br> Anyway, l am just getting so tired of feeling like l am the one who had the affair and is trying so hard to make amends here. No matter how much l want this marriage,l need things from him too. l would give my eye teeth to have him feel like the rest of the men on this thread. l am just wondering if it took your wives to have the affair to wake you all up,and maybe that is why you feel the way you do now. l must say in my opinion you really are in the minority when it comes to the way men are in marriage and commitment. Statistics even show that it is usually the man who runs and abandons the family,not the wives,like has happened to you guys.
<br> l have given my life up to follow him around the world(he is in the AF) l just left my family back in Orlando where l was for the yr he was in Korea. l truly love that place and never wanted to leave it.My famly is devestated that l took my kids away from them because they got so close.lf they had any idea what was going on here they would flip out. l do sometimes wonder why l am here and not back there. l don't voice this to him,but after 3 months of this l am wearing thin here. l just don't know how much more l can take without losing myself completely.

l forgot to add that l did give him a card on sun night expressing my sorrow for saying mean things to him,etc but l didn't get a word about it.......

Ali,
<br>I am sure that Bruce, myself and the rest of us MEN wish our wives were a bit more like you.
<br>I too feel like I am the one who is trying save my marriage. I constantly hear from my wife that she KNOWS where we are headed. She tells me that she is trying, and I don't doubt it. But, the lack of affection, conversation, and sometimes courtesy is painful. What I wouldn't give to hear "I Love You".
<br>I hear "I'm sorry for what I've done", "I'm sorry for what I am doing to you now", and other statements of concern for me.
<br>Like you, I also blew up at her and said some very hurtful things. I did this within days of finding out about her affair. After seeing its effects on her, I had to stop.
<br>You ask why we are different. I don't think we are. I believe that those of us here are in the majarity. But, they never write articles about the men that stay and fight for their wives and family. It's not good news. You only hear about the Clintons and husbands who abandon their wives.
<br>As for my WAKE UP CALL. Was it prompted by the affair? Of course it was. But, if my wife simply talked to me, instead of holding all of her issues in, we could have come to the same changes. To wake someone up, you dont have to shoot them.
<br>

Bill, you said:
<br>>As for my WAKE UP CALL. Was it prompted by
<br>>the affair? Of course it was. But, if my
<br>>wife simply talked to me, instead of holding
<br>>all of her issues in, we could have come to
<br>>the same changes. To wake someone up, you
<br>>dont have to shoot them.
<p>All I can say is AMEN!!!
<p>terri

bill,
<br> lol! but l think my H would probably argue that with you,(about more wives being like me)after all he did have an affair too remember,so l guess l wasn't meeting a need somewhere.
<p>l know that the majority of men in our country are good,decent family men, l just meant the broken homes and single parent households l believe are caused by more men than women.l could be wrong though.
<p>l guess about the talking,that is just the hard part. l know for me,for years l tried to no avail. Even now, l would think he would see if we want to move on we need to start communicating better,but so far l am the only one ever starting it,and he still doesnt seem to be hearing me.....

To all,
<br>It has been a while since I have had a bad day (2 weeks?). I guess is was due. Yesterday was a tough day at work. I knew I would love to have been held and loved, just for a while. Well, my wife was in some need herself, and started tenderly kissing me. She looked into my eyes, and I thought I saw something there. Wishful thinking?
<br>During this tender moment, she kept saying that she "didn't know". I told her that I was giving her time to find out. I tried to let her go to sleep, but, she was insistant on more intimacy. Although I had resolved not to do this until she resolves at least some of her issues...
<br>Afterwards, she would not even let me hold her, or just hold her hand. She said "She couldn't do this now". I know she had been feeling good about herself. She had started a new career the day before, and had several interviews lined up, with more calls coming in. I was hoping this would start to give her a new outlook on her (and our) future.
<br>So, today, I am a bit down on myself for giving in to her (and my own physical needs, over my emotional ones).

Bill,
<p>Don't be down on yourself for this. You have to be made of steel to withstand the mood swings involved in this. Frankly, I can't deal with it.
<br>After a good weekend together we are back to square one. My wife has hardly interacted with me this week except for shop talk. So when she asked me if I wanted to go in the bedroom last night I couldn't because I was sick of feeling like she was doing this because she felt she had to.
<br>She says, "Ok, you said no so don't start any arguments." I said that I had promised not to push her or badger her, but I could not pretend I was happy about being so alone while she was around me every day. She said she doesn't feel anything. Yet she says I would be wasting my money to take her to counseling.
<br>All this was really great happening on my birthday. My mom and sister called to wish me happy birthday. Mom said I sounded depressed. Gee, i thought I was hiding it. When my sister called she said mom was concerned about me. I told her about the situation. She said I simply should not press. Damn. I'm emotionally worn out.It all feels like it's slipping over the cliff in spite of my best efforts. Anybody got a cyanide capsule?

Bruce,
<br>I too feel like I have been swimming against a current, and not getting anywhere. No change in her attitude. Nothing. Just more confusion.
<br>Another thing that bothered me was that my wife told me last night that parents of my daughter's friend just split up. It sort of pushed how close I am to that.
<br>I keep thinking how long I am going to last, without any movement in my relationship. Just the fact that someone can make love to you one minute, and not want you to touch them the next, confuses the h--l out of me. I'm getting a little tired of being constantly hurt by the person I love most.

Bill,
<p>It's always a rough day at work the day after you've had a slump at home. It's like carrying a load of bricks inside you all day.
<br>Today was particuarly busy as I had numerous people with computer problems. I sat down at one guy's desk to install some software and noticed he had a book opened next to the keyboard. It was about minimizing the effects of divorce on the kids.
<br>Nothing like a positive sign to make your day go even better.