A good friend of mine who is divorced and remarried, and who helped me greatly through this mess, told me about his x. They have 2 children and have been divorced about 15 yrs. His x had an affair and married the om.<P>Last summer their youngest son was supposed to graduate from college, but was a few credits short. His mother was all over him about not graduating on time, how he let her and his family done. So the son asked his dad if he could come and spend last summer with him and his family. He dad said of course(he orginally had custody, but had problems raising the boys and gave them back to the mother and she immediately moved them away so he had limited contact).<P>When the son didn't return in the fall, the mother threw a fit and demanded the SUV she had bought him. She was really nasty about it and the son ended up staying with his dad until a few months ago when he joined the Marines.<P>He graduated from boot camp on Good Fri. Guess who he invited to the graduation? His dad and his family. He reluctantly invited his mother and her husband(om).<P>This is where it gets funny. Here, mother and H/om have separated as she was seeing her dance instructor. H/om cleared out all of the furniture from there home and is living near his kids.<P>My friend said it was funny as his x didn't have anybody to sit with, as her current husband was there too and wanted no parts of her, my friend and his new family wanted no parts of her, her sons wanted no parts of her and her parents who were there too, wanted no parts of her either.<P>He said everybody did get together to take a picture, sons, father, mother, step father, step mother, half sisters and grand parents. My friend said it was hilarious. The parents also tried to get everybody together for dinner. My friend said they politely backed out of that mess.<P>So I guess his x wife never did learn anything about fidelity. This time it took 15 years.

I agree, once a cheater, always a cheater. I have seen it in my own life with my STBX. Somehow I missed a pattern that repeated itself every 5 yrs three times . <P>I would like to think that all betrayers, eventually learn that they made a mistake. From what I see, they do. It may take time. My neighbor had her ex ask her back after 17 years. She happily said "he!! no". But the satisfaction she got was priceless.<P>The story you shared, is similar to that of my STBX's inlaws. THey divorced and years later, there is still tension and the betrayer, after all these years, is STILL unhappy. <P>Its just hard to sit by and watch our loved ones go thru such a devastation, but at some point, they will face up to their infidelity and take responsibility and grief for what they have done.<P><BR>

However, they can turn that around once they give their lives over to Jesus. But as long as they continue to give control to Satan they will forever be a cheater because Satan doesn't want them to really know that he is controlling them. Only God and Satan have the real control when it is broken down to the lowest possible level. We give control to one or the other.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

I agree with Rob. There is hope for a "cheater", if they turn their lives over to Christ. But, if not, I think it is a major weakness that they will not be able to overcome on their own. They may be able to resist for sometime, but eventually, they will do it again. That is why I know I would not be able to take my husband back. Which, I'm sure Satan just loves. He wants marriage to fail and lust is his most powerful weapon. However, if my husband turned his life over to Christ and decided to come back, I would probably reconsider. However, that is highly unlikely.

Lonelymom,<P>You forgot the last part of the saying. "Once a cheater always a cheater unless they learn from their mistakes".<P>I was the betrayer in my first marriage. Unfortunately there was no internet or volumes of self help books available at that time. 1987.<P>I woke up after 9 months living with the OW. I saw what I did to my W and children. I asked to come back. Toni said no.<P>I went to see a counselor and he was as crappy as the ones I have seen this past year. Well, at least that hasn't changed!<P>I will never, ever, cheat again on anyone. I will take those feelings of hurting the ones that I loved from 13 years ago to the grave. <P>BTW, I am the betrayed this time around. You could also us the line, "What goes around comes around".<P>I did learn.<P><P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic<P>

Dear Medic.<P>I'm sorry. Although I was betrayed, I can see why it happened. Sometimes, I feel like the lucky one because I am free to go on without guilt. I can tell that my STBX feels very guilty but still is not able to turn this thing around. I have been told that one day, he will wake up and see what has happened and will regret it or want to come back and it will be too late. So, I know you must be miserable and I'm sorry that the tables have been turned. I think we all initially want that for the betrayer, but, we shouldn't want anyone to have to go through this pain. I wish you luck in your future.<P>

Yes, there are people who learn, but the pattern is hard to identify and change from within.<P>I had been a betrayer 11 years ago, but after understanding the reasons that you can't run away from yourself, you are the only one who can be responsible for yourself, and for your marriage, I returned, and never, ever touched another female other than my wife, since.<P>I will not give hugs to departing female co-workers, handshakes only. However, I do have a weakness around major life events, such as having children, turning 40, probably when I turn 50, that I get depressed about how my life has turned out, and how my life was never as fun as before I had kids and changed careers, from an oil tanker captain with 7 months vacation a year to an Finance Director/Analyst with 2 weeks vacation a year.<P>However, the growth I has was tremendous, but I also realized at the same time that I did marry the wrong person. My W and I have totally opposite values and beliefs. She has a pre-existing mental illness, and I knew at the time that we should not get married. But I had not reached full maturity and had not yet completed my father's dream for his son.<P>Yet, knowing that you married the wrong person, yet you still love her, brings moments of intense frustration within me and my marriage. Now, my wife is having the same MLC, but is more convinced than I am that<BR>her EA and possible PA, though she denies it, will probably end our 15 year marriage this summer.<P>The shoe is now on the other foot, and I see in her everything I saw in myself from 11 years ago, selfishness, virtual reality, fog induced strength. However, she is a much more selfish person than I ever was, and played lots of mind games during our marriage, even before my mistake.<P>Life was good for 6 years after the affair, and we had another kid, great kid. But I changed jobs to a higher level, executive job, and my wife fell in with some lower class, marriage outwardly disrepectful people. So after we turned 40, life started on a downward sprial, which she does not think we can recover from, because it will cause her to change to much into someone she does not want to be, and does not trust that I will not be weak around turning 50.<P>So, for my story, I have been faithful since, although vulnerable to minor EAs while but they were all in my mind anyway. The other person never knew.<P>However, as my take on always a cheater, it depends upon the values learned in the family of origin, and the values of the portion of society you spend most of your time in. The values eerily seep into your being, until they take over without you knowing it.<BR>I have a friend who had cheated, and then when the W found out, went straight ever since as far as I know.<P>However, the withdrawal is a real effect, and the damage done lasts a life time. At my first, informal summer party at my executive job, the company had a summer cookout on a nearby beach. A secretary who likes kids, but could be a magazine cover model, came and sat on my family's blanket, with not much on, and started playing with my kids. This was too much for my wife, and she blew a gasket. I didn't even know it was happening. However, it just reinforced my W's insecurity and I was not allowed to talk about the people at my job when I came home.<P>It is and always will be a major life mistake, and I will always be paying for it as long as I am married to my curent W.<BR>And if the D goes through, it will take a long time to find the right person, <BR>if at all, as I am<BR>a very different person now, a lot of happy go lucky has been used up.<P>thl<P><BR>Likewise,

Hey 711,<P>Have read a few of your posts. I have not gone to lurker mode yet, I just have made trying to reconsile with my current W a priority. Wow, is that something new or what for me, her my priority?<P>Back to the past. I have missed out on so much of my childrens growing up. I will never be able to regain that no matter how I try. I most recently have made a connection with the oldest about three years ago. I got him interested in prehospital care, ambulance. He runs with me and is a certified Emergency Medical Technician. He is in college going for a nursing degree. We are so close now. It took a long time to break down the wall between us.<P>I am still working overtime on the younger boy. He thinks I hate him. Funny, that's the same think I thought.<P>Strange as it may seem my FXW has been there for me during these trying times. She is attempting to get the younger one to come down more on weekends and spend time with Dad. After all I put her through what's wrong with her? <P>She came down to help me get over the Val-less period. We sat and talked for hours. I do things for her as well. She asked if I knew anyone that could put brakes on her car for less than $200. I told her a case of brew and the parts would be enough for me. I replaced her brakes two weekends ago.<P>In my time I have gone out with many nurses. Sorry, a personal thing, I like women in white. I have always been able to maintain friendships will all after we part. Most of them call my service to transport patients. <P>Not really sure what I'm trying to say other than I was a real d!ck. Well that's what I thought with so many years ago.<P>Medic came back to the real world.<P>He is ready to be a GREAT H!<P>Wishing us all the Best!<P>Tim

Medic238: Question for you regarding your children - did you live quite a distance apart that you didn't have much contact with them growing up? Or was it your choice to not be involved? I ask this because my STBX and I live 2000 miles apart and he sees the kids perhaps every 2-3 months for 2 days or so. It hurts me deeply to know that this relationship is not going to develop to a level the kids deserve. What made you decide to get back into their lives? <P>Thanks for your feedback, I appreciate it.

Hey Missy,<P>When we first D'd they lived within 5 blocks of me. Communication with the XW was very limited. When there was talk it was usually yelling. Her at me. She was still full of hate which I can most certainly understand.<P>I did get the children every other weekend. I won't say she tried to poison their minds but it was evident they didn't really want to be here.<P>I found out from my Mom that they were planning on moving a day before they left. She opted to move out to the state of Washington with her new BF. I live in Pennsy. Quite a distance. Didn't have an address from them or a phone number. I only heard from her when she needed more money.<P>They came back about 4 years ago and live about 5 miles away. I first made contact with the older boy on AOL. We started chatting and sending E. That opened the door.<P>We [both boys] were putting up drywall at my Moms house and I made an off the cuff remark that maybe he would be interested in becoming an EMT. That was it. Toni called me and we got him into class. <P>He has lived with me for the last 3 years. He came down one weekend and stayed the entire summer before returning to his mother for his senior year at high school. We live in different school districts.<P>The younger boy stayed last week over night. I tried to engage him in conversation. It didn't work out so well. So, I'll keep trying.<P>Don't know if this helped or not. Just another chapter out of Zippys life.<P><P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic<P>

I agree with Rob and Medic, some do learn from their mistakes. We all learn from this, and thats at least one good part of it. My ex cheated 3 times, every 5 years. He kept saying he learned but he didn't.<P>IMHO, I personally will not give him another chance, cause he will not look to God and he will not learn. <P>Its good to hear that others can become better out of this. Medic, I follow your posts, but did not know that you cheated before, must have missed that. <P>Dana