I saw your post on another thread about your pledge to celibacy and thought I'd respond.<P>I too made a pledge to celibacy. It has been over a year since my husband divorced me. Now I'm trying to prove to myself that love can exist without sex. That there is such a thing as true friendship and caring that doesn't end in someone's bed. <P>Even though I still miss sex, my choice has been very gratifying. It has allowed me to look at the opposite sex without making lists, or summing up their pros and cons as dating material. <P>I'm curious to hear your thoughts about celibacy. <P>

I am in the same boat. For some reason I do not look at men in the "sex" way. Sometimes people will say...oh gosh..he is so cute...and I didn't even notice. I seem to look inside.....<P>I have been celibate for well over a year. I really don't miss the sex...but I do miss the hugging and closeness. <P>I just can't hop in the sack with someone I "like". I have to have true feelings for someone....love...before I think about sex. Plus I had been with the same man for over 15 years.....I am quite scared. I don't find it exciting....or tantilizing to be with someone else. Hopefully some day...years from now...I will think differently.<P>Nancy

Move over in the boat,Nancy.I haven't had sex with anyone but my W for 24 years.Now,I can't comprehend having sex with another woman.I don't miss it that much,but I also miss the closeness and touching.<BR> I feel like my W's affair with a younger man has done a number on my head.Like if my W of 22 years didn't want me anymore,what woman would?<BR> I can't imagine being celibate the rest of my life,but right now I can't imagine being with anyone else,either. --Murph

Hey Gang,<P>Hi, The Student, hope you are not still mad at me. <P>This boat is going to get full. I hope someone can swim. I swim like a rock.<P>Interesting topic, I can't say that I consciously chose to be celibate the past 14 months as opposed to the damn depression just killing my sex drive. That and I fear that I am still very much in love with my W.<P>I went out a few times with an XGF. She is a true blonde, blue eyes, tall with legs to die for. If I would have pushed it would have been easy to end up in bed with her. I didn't see her in that light. I just wanted female companionship. <P>Looking back, the last year Val and I were together was essentially hop on, hop off. Very little feeling, only mechanical in a way. I didn't know what the problem was. Now I see it. Too smart, too late.<BR><P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic<P>

Medic,<P>I'm not mad at you!! I understand that it was probably a good feeling to know that you "could have" if you wanted to, ya know? I understand the self-esteem/ego thing after a divorce. Alot of people really just want to feel like they are still loveable/attractive, and are afraid they'll be alone the rest of their lives.<P>Hey all,<BR>You've all said the same thing. That you miss the hugging, closeness, and touching. This is what I miss the most too! Everyone is so afraid to touch other people these days. Gosh, I'm afraid to touch the little boy I mentor at a local elementary school (he is 12) for fear of getting accused of child molestation or something. We are all starved for touch. Other cultures are much more "touchy". I hug all of my family and friends. There are certain people who I can go to and ask for a hug when I need one. There are other ways to satisfy our skin-hunger (be it temporary or longer term) than just sex. In our culture, that is the way we usually have that need satisfied.<P>During my most vulnerable times (like going through qualifiers recently), I got full-body massages on a regular basis. That really made a big difference. It was not sexual at all, but having a man's hands on my skin satisfied a very basic need at the time. It was very safe, both emotionally and physically. I've thought of trying to start up a "massage" club in my neighborhood to do back, neck, foot massages for each other. Won't do the full-body thing, but just the touching would be nice for everyone. <P>I swear this is one of the reasons why swing dancing and other older-style dancing is becoming popular again. Lots of people aren't hopping into the sack the first time they meet someone, and want safe ways to be touched. <P>Honestly, I can't guarantee I'll be celibate forever. One thing I am sure of, though. I won't have sex with anyone before marriage again. I too cannot have sex without love, and I don't think love exists without commitment. We all know about the fantasy of love and have learned some hard lessons about commitment (or lack of it) here. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 08, 2000).]

Any room in this boat for married people? I've been celibate for quite some time -- and I'm still married. I need to figure out how to get those icons in my message. <purple frowning face goes here> H has no interest. I got tired of my advances being rejected, so I stopped trying a long time ago. I feel like my H lives in a world of his own, and that world doesn't include me.

TheStudent,<P>I haven't talked with you in awhile. I read this thread with great interest. Do I see you starting to recover from all of this mess? Your responses are becoming very well reasoned.<P>I sure hope that you are finally coming to grips with everything and starting to put your life back together.<P>No real advice to offer, but just an observation. It is good to see.<P>Take good care of yourself.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Everyone look out - I'm jumping aboard the boat!!!<P>I, too, cannot imagine being with someone else again - I was with my H for 18 years. I, too, do not wish to stay celibate for the rest of my life, but I still cannot imagine being with another man. When I married, I considered it to be for life, and that my H would be the only man that I would be with for the rest of my life. My heart still honors the vows I made, even though he did not honor his.<P>Lonesome Heart - I was also in the same boat as you. My H had no interst in me at all. He could only manage to have sex once or twice a year for the last 4-5 years of our marriage. He was a withholder, trying to use lack of sex as emotional blackmail against me. It was truly awful. I have been totally celibate (by conscious choice) for over 3.5 years now and it's not much different than when I was married to him!! At least I have a good reason now for why I'm not having sex!!! <P>I don't miss sex per se, but like many have said, miss the closeness, affection and caring. What I miss most is having someone to love, and be loved by. Sex is a part of all of that, and for me, cannot be separated from it. But I have faced the possibility that I may not meet someone who is worthy of sharing my life with on a permanent basis, and thus I could possibly be celibate for the rest of my life. I believe a healthy marriage includes an active sex life, and feel that I was cheated out of loving relationship by my (now Ex) H. His cruelty and coldness have damaged my heart and my ability to believe I can ever trust another man enough again to be both fully emotionally and sexually involved.<p>[This message has been edited by Lady M (edited May 08, 2000).]

Well, this is an interesting boat we're in!<P>I believe celibacy gives the time, space, sobriety, and clarity so desperately needed for those of us who have been betrayed and are so vulnerable and aching. Does anything muddy the waters like having sex???

Hi JL,<P>My day to day life is getting much better. I think you know I decided to stay for my PhD. Came within one day of leaving. For a change, it finally feels like I'm doing it because I really want to. Not to make up for my failed marriage, not to prove the OM that he can't scare me away, not because I'm afraid of what other people will think. Made a huge difference in my motivation.<P>Thanks for checking in!! It feels real nice to know that you are thinking of me now and then.<P>Lady M,<BR>Deep down, that is how I feel too. I'm trying to have that intimacy with my friends now, without sex. It is hard, because alot of people aren't accustomed to that level of closeness without sex being involved. Me too. It has been an adjustment.<P>lonesome heart,<BR>sounds like you are missing more than just the sex. The intimacy and closeness that usually goes along with sex (which I think needs to happen long before sex, actually) is something we all seem to be longing for right now. I feel for you. Right now, celibacy is my choice. To be in the same house and face regular rejection must be terrible! <P>Doc,<BR>I think sex can make people really lazy. It does muddy the waters. <BR>

I'm jumping on board here too! Hope we don't tip over!!<P>I think Doc is absolutely right! Having a purely sexual relationship only sets you back 10 fold in your own personal recovery.<P>I, for one, will not have sex again, until 1) my husband decides to come home and rebuild our marriage, or 2) fall in love with someone new, and get married first.<P>To me, sex right now, is simply adding baggage to an already full trunk!<P>God Bless,<P>Cheryl<BR>

TheStudent,<P>I not sure that I did know that you finally decided to finish. I am delighted to hear that you are. The hard part is over, now the fun begins: the research. I think you will really enjoy this part of the program.<P>You do sound like your life is getting better and that you are getting things under control. You posts certainly seem that way.<P>Good luck and God Bless,<P>JL

Dear Student - I'm happy to hear that you are going for your PhD. I'm sure you will be successful. Thanks for your reply. I have followed your story somewhat erratically, but I would like to say Bravo! to you for your courage, your insight and your willingness to share your story with us - not just the good stuff, but the things that you did and didn't feel good about, but faced and overcame without making excuses. You are a lady of class and courage!!!

I can't hop on this boat yet, <BR>but a recently divorced peer at work says she will only pay for sex now, being able to get it without all the emotional attachment which opens one up to hurt.<P>just another point of viewn<BR>not meant to offend the thread,<BR>just an interest dichotomy.<P>thl<BR>

Well, since I designed this boat I guess I should sail on the maiden voyage. <BR>At one time in the marriage I got tired, as some can relate, having to ask for sex. I went two months. Later when we talked about it a few months late, I told her my reason and she thought I was having an EA. Not that that bothered me.<BR>Since neither of us had any experience with sex before we met, at 25, I felt that being offered her innocence over anyone she has previously known was, and is still, something I treasure. <BR>I have talked to my sister about this. Her late husband often expressed the same feelings about my sister and her "gift". She, and I hope I am not generalizing too much, said that alot of women do not see it as a gift. In the letter I mailed to myW last night I reminded that I still treasure her gift. I would occasionally do so while making love ( though not often ) that during our fourteen years of marriage, it was more precious to me as each year went by. Because we gave this gift to each other, I am very selfishly hoping that if I cannot save this marriage, the next love of my life will guard her "gift" for the one she feels will value it, too. <BR>I do not care how corny this may sound from a 43 year old, but it has allowed me to keep my selfesteem during these 7 mo's of seperation. Even if it ends, I do not wish to let the anger be released through casual sex.<BR>RRUNRR.<BR>

rrunnrr,<P>I too did not see it as a gift. Maybe that is part of the reason I succumbed to a physical affair (very brief, happened two times---too many) when my marriage was in trouble.<P>My virginity was something I wanted to "get over with" and expressly avoided an emotional attachment with it. Mainly because I had big goals in life and was afraid of getting too attached to someone at a young age. Now, I do see it as a gift. A very important gift, not only emotionally but for some pretty pragmatic physical/health reasons as well. <P>There is a movement towards being "born again virgins". Probably sounds strange, but most of these people are like myself. Those who have made bad sexual choices in their past, and want to reclaim this "gift" in some way. <P>WhenIfindthetime,<BR>I'm a converted, have-sex-without-emotion, person. In my late teens/early twenties I had no problems having sex just for sex without emotion. That was before AIDS. I ended up having two abortions after using birth control. So, the consequences hit me hard. I was more selective after that, however, still had sex with my second husband after knowing him less than a month. Was completely monogamous to him for over 7 years (no jokes about the 7 yr. itch, ok?). I'm celibate now because I firmly believe that casual sex can have some pretty bad unintended consequences, even under the best of circumstances. <P>Also, having sex with someone you don't know well gives the illusion of intimacy that is not really there and otherwise binds people in a way that is completely artificial. Like "hey, we can hardly hold a conversation. Lets jump into bed!!"<P>Having sex before marriage, even between people who profess to love each other, has different problems. Basically, "love" or the feelings of love can develop very quickly. Over time, those giddy feelings fade, and the real person comes through. Then, you've just added another person to your exposure list. How many people is one willing to sift through, sexually, before they find someone they can marry?<P>Hey, no judgements here. I've been on both sides, which is why I know for a fact that celibacy is a good choice for me. For life, if I never marry, and certainly not before marriage if I do change my mind about that.<P>Lady M,<BR>Thanks for your encouragement! It is has been a long, hard road. <P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 10, 2000).]

Is there room for one more? I'm also celibate, not because I'm refusing to do anything, but because the emotional content of our marriage is so dead, and we hardly touch to say good morning or good night or hello or goodbye. Sometimes when I touch his arm or his forehed he flinches unconsciously. H says he feels no desire for me. I sleep in another room because it is so lonely in the bed. It's been over a year since we held each other in bed (just held, that's all) and I had to ask him to do that. We lay there stiffly, unnaturally, until we could move apart withut being awkward. <P>We tried once, a few days before D-day, so sad. It hurts so much, not the actual not having sex, but the no affection. That's what I miss. I'm not tempted to find someone else; but I make appointments for massages and haircuts and manicures to satisfy my need to have some touch.

The Student<P>You hit on many of the public reasons I have developed over time on this subject. Also, I view this as a multi-faceted, 3-d shape. Two facets are ego, both the good and the selfish.<P> In the small towns I lived in, there were no secrets. I watched too many peers screw up. Source of motivation no.1. <BR> In later years at college I was presented with a few opportunities from a few friends with experience. I did not think I had it in me to refuse. Then I realised we would not be sharing the "first time" and knew I would just be another notch on her headboard. Besides, I would be lousy anyway and did not care to be viewed as just a waste of time. We remained friends during those years, though. They were like sisters, but sisters I could talk with about anything. I still do not regret saying "no".<P>It is just my opinion, but I feel that the innermost part of your being, soul, or personality is, or should be, uncontrollably "exposed"(thus, given) to the person you are making love with. A relationship should be deep enough so I would not feel a need to stifle that emotion at the thros of exstacy. (Sorry, I have a limited imagination for describing this.) THAT requires a lot of trust in, and care for, that person, my wife.<P>rrunrr<BR>

rrunnrr,<P>You bring up another good point. My guess is that you probably would not have stayed friends with these women if you had slept with them. You would have felt strange, they would have felt strange. So, by abstaining, you were able to be close to them in another way.<P>That is my other reason for abstaining. I've been hurt alot by men in my life (alot of it due to casual sex probably) and I really need to connect with them at a whole different level. I'd really like to be close without the pressure of sex or fear of being used.<P>Bellevue,<BR>I do the same thing (massages, etc). It does help. I also find myself giving and asking for hugs from my close friends alot. That satisfies the emotional part somewhat. I'm so sorry about your marriage. How terribly lonely that must have been.