Hi friends,<P>Just a quick question. Does anyone know if many betrayers suffer from any forms of mental illness?<P>It has been described by some betrayers, that when they had the affair , they "lost their mind", or "didn't know what they were doing". <P>To me, well, in my case, blaming my STBX's behavior on mental illness of any sort, would be too easy on him. He is just selfish and only can think of one thing, and whatever he has to do , to get it, he'll do.<P>Some people do feel their spouses, were suffering some sickness, when the affair happened. Its also easier to blame a sickness then your spouse sometimes, but in my case, my ex was just selfish.<P>If you have experience in this, either during the affair, or after it ended, please let me know. Also, I'm interested in after the marriage ends, how this affects the situation. <P>Thank you, and prayers to all, Dana<BR>

Dana,<BR>I know that my stbx'x brother is bi-polar. And his dad suffered from severe depression for the most part of his married life.<P>My stbx does exhibit some characteristics of bi-polar....but I never noticed or put two and two together until he left. <P>His highs are very high...spending money like nothing, thinking only of himself.....grandiose thoughts. His lows are terrible....his is grouchy...angry.....and sometimes down right violent. I had told him on numerous occasions, in the beginning that he was depressed....that I had read and educated myself on the subject so much...and also because I saw myself in him. He hated me for saying that. Didn't and still doesn't feel he has a problem.<P>Bi-polar is/has played a big part in our divorce and the actions that he displays to his children and me.<P>That is the reason that I feel somewhat sorry for him. I just can't help but want to reach out and hug him and tell him everything is going to be ok. But something inside of him won't let that happen.<P>Nancy

I am convinced my wife is suffering from mental illness. It is in her family, and<BR>it looks and feels like Borderline Personality Disorder from the book I read.<P>She has been and again was recently bulemic, and now is obsessive/compulsive with exercise, such as walking 1 hour in the morning, bike ride 1 hour in the afternoon, night time 2 hours of lifting weights, then going to bed and not sleeping for more than 4-5 hours. <P>However, the theme in this illness is the borderline between psychotic and neurotic, which manifests itself with issues of control, abandonment and intense sensitivity to external events, especially people.<P>This is also the theme in her family of origin. They look at the world very differently, have poor memories, and don't let people get very close because they are<BR>very insecure, and scared that other people will find out they are empty on the inside, and not what they project on the outside.<P>I have many examples of this from my wife, including her descriptions and interpretations of life.<P>We will see how it turns out. She does not make good decisions and lets her environment tell her what to do. She is in a EA/possibly once/twice PA, and her mind is completely gone, frazzled, fogged to no end. She can't even remember our courtship as being very pleasurable (so why did she get married?)<P>They learn, but very slowly, make excuses to feel good or justify their actions. If I need it now it is ok, but has a hard time with he future or why she is where she is today.<P>After reading the book, I understand now, but iti is like living with a child sometimes. And it will never get better because I represent something from her childhood beliefs which do not make for an easy marriage/relationship.<P>I takes alot of thought, reading and thinking to come to these conclusions, but I feel a ton better knowing that it is not ALL my fault, as she would like me to believe, but only 50%, and that fifty percent is difficult when I get blamed for cooperating with her requests, and not seeing that she really meant the 100% opposite (or at least that is my interpretation of the anger after I complied with a request that she later said I should have done something different.)<P>One conclusion, they blame others, and have a n incredibly hard time understanding themselves, because realistically, looking at themselves is so painful, they would rather not do it, or fix it. I have been criticized for having an easy life.<P>thl<p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited May 10, 2000).]

One word to describe the "mental illness" aspect of this....<B>ADDICTION</B><P>I know this may sound simplistic but it fits. In my counceling w/Steve Harley he stressed the point that this is a symptom of the disease of addiction. The core of addiction is self-centeredness. That's why the Harley's treat infidelity just like substance abuse councelors treat addicts, complete abstinance to "kick" the habbit.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

<B> Nancy </B> - The highs and lows you have described, sound very similar to my STBX, and now I am wondering about that.<P><B> THL </B> - The control and abandonment issues, as well as "taking everything to the extreme" with the BPD again, also sounds like my STBX. He was similar with the exercise story but in a different aspect, his came out in gambling, sexual addictions , baseball, golf, bowling, you name it, each season, it turned into something else. Which wasn't once or twice a week, but 2-3 times a day. <P><B> Bill </B> What you have said makes sense. Thanks for your input. I know my STBX had an extremely addictive personality, and it doesn't surprise me to see the path he has taken with the OW. She has a very similar personality to him. <P>Prayers to all, Dana

lonely mom,<P>People with a bipolar condition do indeed have a higher rate of infidelity. The symptoms of the manic phase of bipolar are:<BR>- poor impulse control<BR>- over focused on self<BR>- over indulgence on pleasure oriented <BR>behavior<BR>- lack of consideration for the consequences of ones actions<BR>- increased sex drive<BR>- increased ideation of sex (thinking about it)<P>You comment on your husband's extreme selfishness and I know how hurtfull it can be to suffer that. But please remember, extreme selfishness is a prime symptom of bipolar.<P>Anyone experiencing all of those symptoms would be at great risk of entering into a sexual infidelity. This is what happened to my wife last fall when she threw herself at a man 15 years her junior. Thank God he stopped her or she would have gone all the way and then hated herself afterwards.<P>I have visited a website for bipolars and a common thread is compulsive sexual behavior. These are not happy people, as they express terrible remorse over the pain they have caused their partners and the ruined relationships they have created.<P>If your husband is biplor, then he needs medical help. He isn't "mentally ill". bipolar disorder is really a biochemical imbalance, not unlike diabetes, or hypothyroidism. Itjust happens that the central nervous system is the affected organ, and it's affects cause changes in mood and behavior. The condition is genetic, so if his brother and father are bipolar there is a very high likelyhood he is, too.<P>I suggest you stop worrying that admitting he is bipolar will get him off the hook for taking responsibility for his actions. He did it, he's responsible and needs to be accountable. The best thing he can do to demonstate his responsibility is to get proper treatment. If you can do this then you are well off. In my case, my wife rejects the notion that she is bipolar and is continuing down a destructive path.<P>You can choose to hold onto your anger, pain and resentment, or you can forgive him and move on. Maybe with treatment your husband and you can reconcile, or at least find a way to part as friends.<P>Good luck,<BR>Kenneth

Kenneth, <P>Thanks for all the information, it actually does sound like him. We are almost divorced and he has chosen another woman over me. She is hoping to be his wife soon. If he needs help, hopefully he'll get it, I don't take responsibility in it at this point. She went after him, she wanted him, now she should take care of him.<P>I have moved on to a new life. It was hard for me to do, but I am very happy and don't want to live in the past as it is too painful for me. I would have liked to remain civil for the children's sake, but it will take some time to get there. <P>I really did try to get him to get help for all of this in the very beginning. He refused all attempts. His family almost tried to have him admitted to the hospital, but where we live, that is a very hard thing to have done. Even for a spouse, I couldn't do it for him.<P>Thanks for the information.<P>Dana<BR>

Dear Dana,<P>I can only say that I understand the extraordinary pain you have experienced. You did try to help, but if he is refusing to accept his condition in the end you are better off without him. One thing is for certain, bipolar doesn't get better on it's own, or go away. It only gets worse.<P>I have watched my wife change from a caring, loving, creative, and giving woman into a selfish, insensitive, destructive, vain and suspicious person. Along the way she has dumped many of her friends, pushed us into separation, and spends time with a circle of bitter and selfish people. Sometimes I think aliens have abducted my wife and replaced her with an evil clone.<P>At some level I still feel love for her, or for who she used to be, but it gets harder as the weeks go by. I am trying to salvage a decent respectful relationship. Since we have a 5 year old child we will be obliged to have some sort of relationship for the next 15 or so years.<P>One thing I have learned is to leave her to deal withher problems, or not deal with them if she chooses. I need to focus on looking after myself and my daughter.<P>Hang in there,<BR>kenneth

WhenIfindthetime,<P>Your description of the borderline personality is very interesting. Do you know if there is a connection between borderline personality and sexual abuse survivors and their after-affects? They seem to have many of the same symptoms or behaviors, such as; fear of abandonment, fear of intimacy, passivity, rage, memory, etc.<P>just curious.

Kenneth,<P>I am sorry to hear about your wife. I know of people who have gone thru very similar situations. Its very difficult to watch someone you love, change so drastically. Its hard to turn your back on them, but at some point, we all have to live for ourselves for once and do what's best for the children.<P>I personally would rather be happy and divorced, then unhappy and married. In my case, I am so much happier without him. It helps to understand why he did what he did, but it will never mean that I could take him back. I already grew up with mental illness in my family and dealt with it for 22 years, I don't care to give my soon to be ex, any more than the ten years, I've already given to him on top of that. <P>Unfortunately, you have longer than 15 years. I see it with my STBX's family. My ex is 27, and the families had thought they were thru, but then when your (and my daughters) grow up, there is graduations from college, engagement parties, birth of the grandkids, it goes on forever. <P>I did feel bad at one point, leaving him to deal with his problems on his own. As I said, the OW went after him hard. She went after him because he was married, she was challenged, and she thought she wanted my life. She has recently quit her job (that she had when she chased him) and he will take care of her and her son. Ironically, I worked full time, and she doesn't realize he can't support a family on his own. Now she can be the one worried about him when he goes to work every day, that he'll do to her, what he did to me. Now, its her responsibility to get him help, if he needs it. Again, he is so damn selfish, I hate to give him an excuse to make me feel sorry for him.<P>Be strong for yourself and your little girl. What is meant to be , is destiny, and we can not change that on our own. We will all find happiness and peace after this terrible affair experience, and life will go on to be much better, I am sure of it. <P>Dana<BR>

Dana:<P>My spouse has a peace now that he has never experienced before because he is on a medication called Neurontin, and because he has stopped drinking again. <P>In January 2000, his attempt at suicide was the best thing that ever happened to him in a perverse way. He was taken to a crisis unit and then a psych ward where a psychiatrist prescribed medication and diagnosed him with bipolar 1 disorder.<P>His distructive behavior is gone, he no longer spends inordinate amounts of money or blames others for life's problems. He stopped drinking on March 22.<P>He has always displayed this behavior to a lesser degree all the years of our marraige, but, he was also sober all those years and the behavior wasn't so blatant. The behavior became exaggerated when he started drinking after 18 years of sobriety.<P>There are people out there walking around with this disorder and don't even know it. The tragedy is that medication could control these destructive impulses and spare all the heartache for the families if they could just get their brain chemistry regulated to see things the way they really are. <BR>The trick is to let them get to the point where they can't stand it anymore and beg for help. Then they are open to getting and accepting the help they need.<P>blessings<P>catnip =^^=<BR>

Dana, Kennith, Catnip...all others,<P>Since we are waxing philisophical on this subject. I may as well ask for another card and raise the stakes another 2 cents...lol<P>I suffer from bi-polar, depression, anxiety,impulsive obsessive, drug addiction, terminal hip-ness and am fataly cool. Does this mean I have a chemical/hormonal imbalance? Quite frankly I don't know. I did take Wellbutrin to combat my depression at the openning of this sad period of my life, and it did relieve the symptoms.<P>Now for my soapbox lecture...The only thing I have found to combat these defects of mine have been the 12 steps of Narcotics Anonymous(damn there goes mt anonymity...again) Through working this program of recovery I have developed a concious contact with God(as I understand Him). When I apply the spiritual principles I have learned over the pasr 4 years my life goes silky smoothe. When I don't I wind up miserable and in a state of relapse . <P>One of the things I have noticed, I am a skilled observationist, is that 95% of the people I come in contact with could use the 12 steps in there unmanagable lives. I believe we(the afformentioned 95%) suffer from the same disease, addiction, it just manifests itself in different symptoms. Drugs and alcohol being the leaders in destruction, with sex and gambling tied for second. This covers the spiritual and mental aspect of this disease.<P>As far as the physical aspect, ie: actual dependance and chemical/hormonal imbalance, let us take a look at what we put into our bodies. Almost all of the food we get at the local grocer is inorganic and laced with thousands of preservatives and other "man-made" compounds. Our bodies weren't designed to convert these things into nutrients. Another thing to look at is the way we prepare our food. Cooking vegetables IMHO is the second worse thing we do to ourselves. Most of the vitamins and minerals and <B>ALL</B> the enzymes get killed off in the heat. Conventional medical wisdom tells us the way to "cure" cronic degenerative diseases is with more chemicals. To me this boarders on insanity. I guess I'm insane because I also use these chemicals to combat what ailse me.<P>Two years ago I eliminated virtualy all chemicals that are man made from my body, I juiced every vegitable I could get into the machine, stopped consuming presevatives, lightly steamed my veggies and ate 1/3 of the meats I normaly ingest. yes you can say it IO dissorder. Anyhoo...I am here to tell you that during that 6 months my energy levels we at a life time high, my thought process was crystal clear and I didn't suffer any emotional extremes. Since I stopped living that lifestyle my body has dwindled to well beyond what it was before my experiment. Why don't I try that again...In a word I'm lazy! It took an [censored]-load of work to do it and I am unwilling to go through the withdrawls from all the chemicals. I am however, slowly getting the willingness to live that way again.<P>Am I saying this is the answer for these mental illness problems...hardly. What I am saying is that it might be worth looking into, and my experience has me scratching my head.<P>Anyhow it is late, I'm tired and affraid to read what I just wrote for fear of sounding rediculous...LOL But seriously I believe our diet is a major factor in what ails us. Think about it. Our bodies convert what eat into the fuel for replenishment, If we put crap in, our bodies and mind go to crap.<P>Just my not so humble opinion. I hope no one is offended, not my intention.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Aw, Bill,<P>You took the fun out of my fried cinnamon bun with the cream cheese icing! Yummm. That comfort bun probably cost me an extra 100 situps at the gym tomorrow.<P>You are so right about diet. The high fat and low nutrition foods we eat are terrible for us....I know, but, why are people living so much longer than ever before? <BR>Maybe they are living longer but are they living well? I think not, there seems to be more mental illness than ever before. A large part due to our departure from God....and then there are the twelve steps, the ten commandments and other programs to enlighten and re-enlighten us into realizing our spirituality. Ugh. Mind, body and soul-such a complex mix that makes up you and me.<P>Gad, it IS late, isn't it? Nite-nite.<P>Take care, Bill<P>catnip =^^=

Cat,<P>One of the reasons we are living so much longer is our carreers. Think about it. The big construction boom is slowing and saftey is at an all time high. Farming is no longer the back breaking labor it used to be we now have machines. Factory workers control robots and other advanced machinery. The rest of us work in an office.<P>What about Dr.'s I think the average length of an M.D.'s life is about 54 years. Wierd huh...I believe the main reason we live longer today has nothing to w/health but the fact that we have medicine and medical equipment that can squeeze a few more miserable years out of us, and scientists ready to experiment with there new toys. If we are living longer why is cronic degenerative disease the #1 killer? Diet is why.<P>Why did you have to mention cinnabuns so early in the morning, I will be drooling at their door when they open today...LOL<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kenneth:<BR><B><BR>Do you know if there is a connection between borderline personality and sexual abuse survivors and their after-affects? They seem to have many of the same symptoms or behaviors, such as; fear of abandonment, fear of intimacy, passivity, rage, memory, etc.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I would think so, but have only read one book. The illness is part genetic and part environmental. It is partly a defense mechanism against a very real sensitivity to certain behaviors/people. Other signs are that part of the emotional growth stops at a certain age.<P>My wife says she hates arrogant people, why I ask? and she basically says that they make her feel inadequate. She personalizes external events. We went for a run once, and her speed for me bordered between walking and running. It was uncomfortable. I said that that speed was uncomfortable for me. She took it critically that she was inadequate.<P>See a post in EN about A reality check.<BR>Another example of neurosis, I believe.<P>They relate alot to previous experiences, so SA could be a possibility. However, not for W. Her family has many examples of this behavior, and the kids from 2 out of 3 families are drug addicts/ school dropouts.<BR>And one of the parents is a teacher, as is she! <BR>The males in these families are effeminate, unable to take a stand about EN against W.<BR> is there a pattern here?<P>keep reading, the more you know, the less you have to fear. My therapist hates that as he sees his living off of me getting dried up in a hurry. <P>thl

thl,<P>I'll go along with the past experience bit but I'll take it a step further.<P>One of the ways my past effects me is the mental relation to some sort of pain or fear. For many years I used drugs as a method to cover up these emotions. SA survivors do much the same in that they find something to cover the past trauma. Those with low self-esteem also have some skeleton that they don't want to look at so they find ways and means to cover it up. Eventualy what we use use as our "defence mechanism" stops working and we move on to something else.<P>My shrink hated me because I was able to see these things and make adjustments, he did help point them out but I did not wallow in the misery and resentment when he did so. I believe that alot of people get caught in this pattern and are a: unwilling to break it or b: can't see it for what it is. It is much easier to live in familiar pain than to walk through unfamiliar fear and seak that serenity that comes with esteem. Most motivational therepists try to get people to break these patterns and attach good feelings to new experiences.<P>Again I believe it all centers around addiction in one form or another.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Bill,<P>Thanks for sharing your story , I believe it may help some of us out there. I am glad to hear that you have found a way to take control of the situation and better yourself from it. <P>Catnip,<BR>Cinnamon buns and Cream cheese/? YUM Now, I'm hungry too <P>THL,<P>The SA factor does make sense and also the environmental factor of it. The pattern is repetetive in many families. I see it in my own ex's family. Same things you mentioned. <BR>I am trying my hardest to break that cycle with my own girls. Hopefully I can.<P><BR>Thanks to all who have replied . Prayers to all, Dana<BR>

Bill, THL, Cat,<P>I was unable to reply to you over the weekend, because I found myself, purely miserable for about two days.<P>It had nothing to do with this thread, but then I was actually worried about what brought my mood so drastically down and depressing. <P>I have nothing to be miserable about, just waiting out the time, for this divorce to become a reality, other than that, I am very happy. <P>This whole topic had me very worried. I am feeling much better today, although not totally myself.<P>Who here, has had that episode? Everything appears to be going along well. No major upsets, and you just get very emotionally drained??<P>Prayers to all,<BR>Dana<P><BR>

Dana,<P>I too despite my best efforts get caught in the grips of the "blues". I think it is part of the healing process.<P>It is how long we choose to stay in it that matters.<P>For me what ever the painful feelings I have I feel them for a time just for the experience. You see for 15 years I blocked them with substances, so now I feel them.<P>There is a saying...This too shall pass...Believe me it is true. When I get worried is when I hold onto them after they have passed.<P>In some ways feelings really suck, in others they are a blessing. How can I help another when I have not felt something they feel.<P>So hang on, ask God to be with you during this time and when they fade put on that old face and enjoy the day.<P>BTW....Happy somewhat belated Mothers Day To You.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Kenneth, thl,<P>Your comments about your wifes are very similar to my x. I used to run with her and we tried again during reconciliation, but she is a smaller woman than I and not as atheletic as I am so running with her was not much of a workout for me. She always took it as a criticism.<P>She was also always complaining how people such as store clerks would treat her or how poorly they did their jobs and that she couldn't do that on her job. She also complained about helping out at the kids school, saying no one helped her at her job.<P>She was also very tuff on herself when she would make a mistake often carrying it to extremes. It seemed like it was monthly she was sure she had killed patient at the hospital. On the other hand, she never said too much when I made a mistake, but would save it and bring it up later.<P><BR>The impulsiveness also started showing up. In 99, she brought home a dog without discussing it with me at all. I was very angry and was accused of over reacting.<P>Also the thoughts and talking about sex increased when we were going through our attempted reconciliation. She asked a couple of times if I didn't wnat her to be my whore.<P><BR>All this, plus her lack of apparent concern in regards to the kids are making me wander if she isn't seffering from some bipolar episode. Her family does have some interesting medical highlights. <P>An interesting fact is that the om was diagnosed as bi-polar. A friend of my x's thinks she exhibits characteristics of a child with an alcoholic parent.