What still and always will surprise me, I guess, is how everyone of my 4 kids only want to make their dad feel good, as dictated to on his terms and not by their honest feelings as they are too scared to upset him by expressing their honest feelings. <BR>Therefore all have a superficial relationship with him.....that will reverberate on their dad eventually, but why does he not get it?<P>Does he not understand that they are petrified about annoying him or he will have nothing to do with them, and this he will never admit, not to himself, his therapist or anyone on earth...it is by his contradictory actions, behaviour and words that this is made clear to them. They have had to buy into his life no matter what the consequences are for them. <P>Is he aware that they are not emotionally ok....but with therapy and time they WILL heal as they have not totally been abandoned...they know that no matter how tough it gets, I am here and will not have MY MLC and leave...<P>Does he feel that they will ever come to him for important issues..<P>Does he know what he has lost???<P>More important does he care?????<P>All the kids need and love their dad...but does he understand it should not be on his terms omly?<P>Does he understand the effect of the sl*t in their lives? <P>Does he not realize that they do not like heror her daughter and she will never mean much to them...more important does he care????<BR> <BR>Does he realize that all his former "friends" think he has behaved appalingly and while they will talk to him, they really have so little to do with him. Again does he care????<BR>He states to friends that he only wants social status, money and power...he had all this before!!!!I do not beleive that with this ow he will ever gain the recognition in his society that he has ALWAYS craved and that he was getting.....Does he know this?????<P><BR>Does he really believe that ow gives him freedom to do what he wants? <BR>Does he really believe that a commitment to another significant other means so much more...which he had with me until he lost his mind.<P>Does he believe that the kids will always buy into his lies?<BR>Does he believe that he is respected and powerful?<BR>Does he not realize that by choosing to forsake all "former life" he is fantasizing that time will make all right in the world and we will be friends....and he, ow and I will get on. Can he really believe this????<P>Not even his employees will invite ow over, not because of the fact that she got involved with him, but because they detest her and always did when she worked for him. Does he care???<BR> And he believes he is not controlled by her. He is now not allowed to go to thir homes as ow has forbidden this! and this is freedom?<BR>Help me figure out where this a@@holes brains are PLEASE.<P>I have moved on to make a life for kids and myself,and I am not bitter, bewildered yes, still! confused what was lacking in the marriage..yes, but more important knowing that no matter what I changed within myself to make H "happy" I could never have succeeded...what he wants is so diametrically opposite to our former norm as people and as the parents of our children.......<P> But the choices H is continuing to make IMO are so "out of charactr" that I will never figure out what has become of this smart, intelligent, narcissistic, but loving man. This behaviour and emotional assault continues to dumbfound me. This man was respected for being a compassionate, intelligent , honest, etc man...nothing is left of him.... I guess I will never figure this out...not even when I become old and am on my deathbed.<P>It was d birthday today and H took her out for lunch with ow and her d and 2 of our sons. He bought her T-shirts that are the wrong size and card was written by ow!!!!!<BR>Daughter will accept any crumbs thrown to her by this man...I only hope that this will not make her so needy when she chooses a partner for life...<BR> <p>[This message has been edited by willbok99 (edited May 21, 2000).]

Willbok,<BR>We have been talking about this a little bit over on my last thread. My H is as clueless to the pain he is causing to our S as yours is too. I hope they do someday figure it out, before it is too late. I think in time the kids will just get fed up and stop trying. Kind of like how we will end up. But, what stinks for the kids is that they are forced into dealing with their parents infidelity AND the OP. Could you imagine having the feelings of betrayl and having to go spend weekends with the people who betrayed your family? No wonder kids of D have so many problems. It burns me up. People always say its best for kids to have both parents. Well, that may be true but, how about when it includes this OP? The person they will always feel destroyed their family security. I know that our spouses are equally to blame but, the kids will not want to think of their parent that way so they will focus on the OP. Kind of like we all do.<BR>No good answers. Just wanted to get on my soap box. <BR>I wish you and you kids well. I will pray for your strenghth to get through this ordeal.<BR>Lisa

No, they don't understand. I asked my wife if she thought what she had done was in the best interests of the children. In one of her rare moments of clarity, she said "probably not." But on she goes on her merry way.<P>Had a talk with my 6 yo son the other day. He is terrified of telling his mother that he is mad at her. He thinks if he does this, she will get mad at him and not love him anymore. A six yo should not have to deal with this.

When the affair had been going on for over a year (but I thought it was over), my H had his BD. The family took him out for dinner and we had a very nice time. After a while, he went to the bathroom. He was gone for quite a while, so my 12 yr old son went to fine him. They both came back to the table and my son said Dad was on the phone. My H called him a lier, said he was just washing his hands. My son said, "but Dad, I heard you say good bye". My H again called him a lier. The evening was a disaster after that. My son walked with me back to the car and told me he wasn't lying. I knew he wasn't. <P>This happened over a yr ago. My son tells me it was the worst day of his life for his Dad to call him a lier. Hy X has apologized, but how do you erase that from a young mans mind??<P>------------------<BR>Susan

Willbok,<P>I think we are married to the same man. My H is in denial about the children as well. He says they are perfect angels with him but at home (my house) they are depressed and sad. My 14 year old is angry and has been getting in trouble at school lately. H says it's because I make everyone around me miserable. They're just fine with him. It's all for the same reasons as your kids. They fear losing him permenantly if they are "real" with him. So they pretend to be happy. I'm the "safe" parent. They can be themselves because I love them and I'm not going to ever leave them. He says he's a much better parent now...now that it's part-time. It's easy when you get to see them every other weekend and plan fun get-aways. It's different when you are involved in the day to day life things. But ultimately he will be the one who loses out. You are not alone...I think this is typical betrayer behavior.<P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

Talking from the childrens standpoint and believe me they have done plenty of it, I have learned that they have no respect for their father. Our 10 year old is embarrassed by his actions and is just out and out angry at him. Sure, I believe that that anger she had would have diminished by now if he would just stop making them feel so bad. <P>I wanted those girls to have a wonderful, healthy relationship with their father. But he shares far too much with them. Tells them everything he can...about his wonderful life......says nasty things about me to them.....about legal issues......how mom is going to get hers.....just wait until I have custody....etc.<P>Do you honestly believe that our children want to hear this? They just want to be kids.....run around...play....talk on the phone....have sleep overs....but they can't. They are not permitted to use his phone......they are not taken to places where they can be kids. Being drug into a family/bar resturaunt so he can watch a sporting event on TV is not their idea of fun. He rents scary movies and movies that have to do with women being mental or being killed by someone because of divorce or because they are bad...scares them. He makes sounds when they show a woman getting arrested or killed. Usually he is on the phone...behind closed doors talking about me to someone.....and since it is a small apartment...they can hear everything.<P>If they try to talk to him about feelings.....he discredits them....blames them that they feel that way because of me.<P>Those girls just want their dad back.....whether he lives here or not. They just want their dad to love them....not buy them.....they just want to talk to him about stuff and not hear bad things about their mom or for that matter them.<P>It has been over a year since he has been gone and nothing has changed for the better....it just gets worse and worse.<P>Nancy

Grandpabri,<BR>My 9yr old son said the exact same thing. He is afraid to say what he feels for fear he will stop loving him. It is very sad. Truth is he probably would.

Our kids have also said that they don't believe their father really wants them to talk about their feelings, and that they are afraid to say what they feel for fear that he will get angry and maybe stop loving them. And they have concrete evidence that he doesn't want them around if they are not well-behaved and polite. He refuses to have them visit at the same time becuase they fight too much, he claims, and on two occasions he has refused to give gifts to the daughter who won't speak to him. That certainly doesn't seem like unconditional love to them.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by willbok99:<BR><B>Does he understand the effect of the sl*t in their lives? <P>Does he not realize that they do not like her or her daughter and she will never mean much to them...more important does he care????</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My dad was a serial cheater. I can't speak for all cheaters, but in his case, he never grew out of it. Never learned anything from it, and would probably still be cheating today if he were in good enough health to chase women.<P>The effects on the siblings- my sisters and I cannot abide by dishonesty and cheating. We are very hard on ALL guys and really don't give anyone much of a chance at all. Our demands are unrealisitically high and we are always let down because people are human. The slightest betrayal and that's it. it's hard for us to get close to anybody or trust anybody. Both sisters are in their 30s and have never been married, no children.<P>One brother is too young yet to have relationships. One brother is faithful to a fault like his sisters. The other two brothers are dogs! dogs! dogs! they don't care about family, fidelity, or a woman's feelings. Luckily, none of them are married either and none have children. I believe that all of this is a reflection of my dad's behavior.<P>My relationship with my father gets more distant every day. I used to be daddy's little girl and would love to be by his side. As I got older, I realized what he'd done to my mom, realized the effects on his illegitimate children, and just seen what a horrible dad he really was. I can't respect this man. I don't like my dad. <P>I don't like his wife either. None of us do. He's been married to his OW (one of thousands) for 20 years and none of the siblings ever call her on her birthday, for Mother's Day or anything. Some family to marry into. It must be miserable for her. We're not mean people. We don't treat her badly, but we don't respect her as a part of this family because she is one of the people who broke it up.<P>As to what is in my dad's heart, I can only guess. He doesn't seem to have an ounce of regret. he's still selfish to the core.<P>I don't want to give the impression that everyone is doomed to a life of separateness, just showing you how it is in my family. We are not bitter people and don't carry this around with us every day, but it is something that will always be there. We see very clearly what he's done and what it has cost all of us.

I too, had a dad that cheated, with a married woman, for yrs.. stayed with my mom, all those yrs too... and when my mom started verbalizing her suspitions about his wrong doings... I didn`t want to beleive her... My dad was my knight in shining armour... <P>I have to tell you all.. I was 25 when I found out the truth.. long story short.. when I did, I went right!!! to my mom and said, don`t be an idiot.. why live like this.. he is no longer in love with you.. it has been yrs.. it is not going to stop or change.. <P>she did finally file, and it took three yrs for her divorce.. it was extremly hard on my mom, and at that time, there was no- no fault divorce yet, but he still took her to the poor house.. to this day, my mom struggles financially, and we have to help her here and there, (there are 6 siblings)... <P>OK.. now comes the weird part.. I didn`t talk to my dad for at least the three yrs it took for their divorce, (family outings, yes, but nothing more) and it took yrs for my heart to get over the crush of my dad doing this to my mom..<P>I now have this very same man, (dad) helping me with my divorce.. and he is angry that my ex!!!!, (who works an all cash business, and makes loads of money) and is being so obnoxcious about our divorce.. (this is a man (my dad) who did exactly the same thing to his wife!! (my mom!!!) and is angry at my ex about our divorce.. can it be dad is now realizing what he put my mom through!!???? probably not.. It is more that I am his kid and any parent protects their kids as best they can.. so my point is.. they never see it.. they never look at them selves.. as the coprit!<P>My dad lost his first lover,(that he left my mom for) to cancer, she never left her husband, for my dad.. the funeral was a weird one.. we all went, (no choice, she was his business partner for yrs..) and we sat with *her* family through this whole thing.. day after day.. <P>his new girlfreind!!! is 30 yrs his younger.. (one yr younger then his youngest child) she is 6 ft tall.. dad is 5`9".. looks like laurel and hardy!!! she look diky.. and (we all think) she is a gold digger..! but!!! he`s happy, and we can`t do a thing about it... so what a world huh!<P>My daughter is 12, and adores her dad, my ex.. (and why not... he is buying her every thing, even her love and just being a part time dad, or as they say, an uncle dad, what can be so bad...?) <P>well one day, when D does grow up.. that horrible rude awakening day will hit her.. seeing him for what and who he really is.. and how he did us both wrong when he left, for his own self indulgences... and lack of abilities to deal with emotional ties.. his biggest problem, which of course is a major problem.. so she will know, at that time, he left for no good reasons... other then his own selfishness... I know I did nothing wrong.. I know I am a good person, on that can be worked with if he opened his mouth and spoke his mind... he held it all in, for what.. to ruin a family.. nice!<P><BR>sorry.. I`m rambling.. but point blank.. kids get the wourst end of the deal.. and the spouse that leaves.. hasn`t got a clue!!!!<P>AV

tryingto letgo:<BR>thank you for your input and perspective.<BR>My kids will jump through hoops to please their dad and have a real life with me that is not smooth, easy or a fantasy. They do resent me for this as they are teens, but too bad I would not be doing them a service if I caved in to all their "fantasy demands" I do resent H for providing them with confusion etc. No H does not want to hear about the ow...she was brought into their lives again through more lies (they knew her as his secretary for 3 years prior to discovery) They live together and my kids knew and stated to me (never to him) that they have no choice whether to see her if they want a relationship with their dad!<P>Grandpari:<BR>My 14 year old d will not discuss things with her dad...she is terrified of the consequences...imagined or real!<P>Sue:<BR>My kids are great! They forgive him all the lies etc, but resent the limits I set in their life...want to be 'free' just like their dad! Nice choices for teens he has demonstrated life is easy and smooth and they want to, at some level, buy into this.<P>Keridwen:<BR>I have read many of your posts and feel so much for you...with ow on your doorstep...and there is nothing one can do if you want your kids to have a relationship with their dad whoich they do need to be healthy adults one day! <BR>MY post today is more venting of the everyday hassles I live through....just more of the same old, same old. and H wonders why my life is not smooth...I am stupid...their lives are so contradictory...and they cannot see this.<P>Mental:<BR>I hope you have had a better weekend this week and you and your girls are doing OK. H is so full of [censored]. (todays post is a big vent!!!) He does not understand what he has caused ...and then not dealt with. I think he is a clone of your H in many ways. The difference is that he does not physically abuse the kids (they would have nothing to do with him) and he could not "sell" himself to the schools and professionals...as they do not like him from what they hear or see from the kids in certain respects. He has had no contact.<BR>What gets to me is that he is living his merry little and pathetic life, using the kids and then expecting to be dealt with as a concerned parent when he clearly is not and I will no longer enable this! Again this is my fault that he did not call me for a year about the kids arrangements and went through the kids!!!!!<P>Nellie:<BR>I did tell him on the phone today that it was time he started behaving as the childrens parent and not doing what was good for him only! <P>Popeye:<BR>Thank you for this insight. I am sure he would have a heart attack if any of the kids took up with a person of same ilk as his ow. All my kids know what he did. I did tell them as he is a coward and plays games, but this game of life is horrendous enough without additional lies.<BR>He also does very inappropriate things, especially with d and she is too scared to tell him and ow that she is scared of a movie etc, for fear of ridicule or rebuke.<BR>numbheart:<BR>Thank you for the insight. H will never understand the pain he caused me or his kids and does not have the emotional depth to feel, IMO. I told him today that I am most concerned about one of my older (19) sons...he of course stated this kid is doing just fine...fighting with me and cutting me out of his life and lioving in my home, but I am concerned as this kid has buried his emotions so deepley that he cannot feel very much for those people around him and needs help. This H does not see, but son is starting to understand what I have been saying to him.<BR>

I know that my H doesn't see what he is doing. His dad abandoned him and his brother and sister after his parents divorced. So he is determined to stay in our children's lives and not abandon them either.. but it is ok for him to leave me and be with other woman. Our kids are young, (5 and 3), but I see the effects on them already. Anytime I try to talk to him about it, he just brushes me away and tells me that he has made the only choice he could make .. that ours was a dead marriage and that was unhealthy for the children to live with.. he is only 36 and he doesn't want to waste his chance at happiness! It is all about him.. not about the kids. I waited til I was 30 to have kids because I was not ready earlier..I knew I would not be able to act in a selfless manner before. To me that is the critical aspect of being ready for parenthood.. you have to be ready to be selfless.. or to strive for it. he is being so selfish however.. I just look at him in absolute amazement most of the time..He actually believes that leaving the marriage is good for the kids! We had a good marriage... we didn't fight much, never in front of the kids. We had been married for 12 years. We had a strong social circle and I was very close to his family with whom we often socialized. His family is devastated... I still do not know why he feels that our marriage is hopeless.. he refuses counseling or retrouvaille type of programs.. he is convinced that he is making the right choice.. the only choice. My H has lost employees because they are disgusted with his behavior (his business partner found h and ow in the office in a sleeping bag on a saturday). Our friends are polite to him, but they do not want to hang out with him.. they think he is a hypocrite and they don't respect him. However, because they are still polite to him, he thinks I am making it up when I tell him that people don't like what he is doing. He thinks either I am not telling the truth or that people understand that sometimes adults just do this.. just leave a marriage and that is just life! What people understand is that he is abandoning a feasible marriage with two young children for a possibility that everyone else can see is just a fantasy! They can not see all these things because the affair is an addiction...they are in their own way ill... We just need to take care of ourselves and our kids to make things ok for them... Best wishes to you!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by willbok99:<BR><B>What still and always will surprise me, I guess, is how everyone of my 4 kids only want to make their dad feel good, as dictated to on his terms and not by their honest feelings as they are too scared to upset him by expressing their honest feelings. <BR>Therefore all have a superficial relationship with him.....that will reverberate on their dad eventually, but why does he not get it?<BR>[This message has been edited by willbok99 (edited May 21, 2000).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I hope this won't be offensive, only helpful. When I read your letter and the responses, I had almost "flashbacks" of my childhood home. I was one of 6 kids with an alcoholic father and a mother whose every minute was spent trying to control the alcoholic and the emotions of the children.<P>I would ask you to ask yourself these questions, please:<P>1. AM I allowing my children to verbalize THEIR honest feelings, or are they only projecting MY feelings to keep peace with Mom and Dad?<P>2. AM I projecting my resentments and fears of rejection onto my children, suggesting to them that their father isn't WORTH loving or WORTH having a close relationship because of the way I allow him to make me feel?<P>3. AM I imposing MY feelings of abandonment onto my children as a method of receiving validation for my own hurt feelings?<P>4. HAVE I been open to hearing HONESTY that is contrary to my own separate realty, only to mirror it back to those verbalizing their HONEST SEPARATE REALITY as their being wrong or irrational? (Your children, your husband).<P>5. How are my reactions, body language, sarcasms, biting statements about my husband in the presence of my children diminishing their respect for me?<P>6. AM I robbing my husband of my children's respect by presenting myself are being more WORTHY to love?<P> Once children are taught that their father is bad because, yadda yadda yadda, and your father is hateful because, yadda yadda yadda, and your father is mean to me and makes me cry and that's why I'm so mean to you.......... why should they have respect, honor, trust, or love for either one of you?<P>Wouldn't love then be replaced with fear? Wouldn't the children all become magnificent liars, actors, and con-artists, and grow up knowing that both parents were not capable or willing to let them be themselves or to let them love who they chose?<P>I know my mother was always more "aggravated" and "nasty" if we children demonstrated love and respect for our father. It was almost like, "What's the matter with you? Don't you don't what he's done to me?"<P>If parents puts their marriage first in the home, then the respect for each parent, one to the other, will be learned and shared by the children.<P>As soon as a wife degrades the honor of the husband, then the children will pity the father, but they won't feel allowed to love him. BECAUSE HE MUST BE BAD.<P>As soon as the husband degrades the honor of the mother, then children will pity the mother, but they won't love her. BECAUSE SHE MUST BE BAD.<P>If the only messages the children are getting from the heads of their family are that both parents are bad....... should they love you?

Wilbok,<P>I have been meaning to get back to you on this. You always bring up interesting threads and it always sounds like something I could have written myself.<P>I have 3 kids, and my ex favors one tremendously (middle) . I have no clue why. He treated the oldest one great when she was the only child. <P>The questions you ask, I ask all the time.<P>I think it depends on the person. If the person was generally a great guy and this affair has turned him into something different, then I do believe some day, they will see all this for what it is. The reason I say that is my ex's dad and mom went thru this. Twenty years later, the dad sees the horror and the mom does not.<P>The mom does not because she was basically a bad person back then and still is now.<P>Grandpabri (i think thats the name) gave me a good quote once. You never truly know your spouse until you divorce them.<P>I have always had a selfish spouse. SO I don't think he'll come around but it does happen.<P>Sending u prayers and hugs, Dana<P>

Nikki123:<BR>Thank you for your post. There is no way the WS wants to hear about the consequences of what has happened to the family....it is NEVER their fault. The losers are the children especially when oe parent has lost all sense of what it takes to parent...God help them, they truly are insane if they think that after all this friendship is possible!<P>Pasky Wabbit:<BR>Interesting name! Thank you for taking the time and trouble to post a reply. No I do not object at all, but would like to reply as I understand my situation:<BR>My children range in age from 14-19 and verbally are not at all hesitant in expressing their feelings about what they do not like about me....but have told me that thier dad does not allow them to discuss anything that will cause any difficulty! All thier anger has been expressed at me....I have lived at and wished I could have left...but my kids needed one parent as the other one was no longer the parent but a friend who had expressed that if they were not nice to him, accepting of ow etc, then he would not see them! Of course he denies this!<P>I have told my kids that thier father loves themand that they need to have a relationship with their father, for their emotional well being...but not at the expense of the relatiponship I have with them or in fact vica versa....but H has manipulated the children and played the victim.<BR>While I do admit that my children know all about the affair....and while I have told them that the way their father is behaving is not right and disgusting, I do not intefere with a lot. The problem is that my H is conniving and will not leave my life alone in terms of the kids and has tried to turn them against me...this has led to major issues between various of the children and myself....and has triggered hurts as their mother ...not hurts due to H's actions...i.e. in his passive aggressive position he has used the kids to hurt me.....and for this I detest him, but I have clearly not directed this anger at kids except for their part in hurting me etc!<P>I hope this makes sense. H is very angry and I know he confides in my children , asks them all about me and my life etc and is very controlling....he cannot understand that he is no longer any part of my life and I need him for nothing, respect him even less and he is the biggest sham of a man I have known.<P>I do not project my hurt by him onto my kids...but am incensed when they attack me and I do react, perhaps due to my oversensitivity of past hurt, but that is part of who I am!<P>Yes, my kids are actors...liars etc...and this is what i battle every day. H has "charmed them" with secrets and lies " to prove his being and obtain their love...what he dos not realize is that the kids love him anyway and this has just put them in the middle and made it so much harder for them and myself as they all live with me, but H plays favourites with them and has the flavour of the month...uses them and it is very dysfunctional.<P>I am by no means perfect and have been the only parent to these children....no matter how hard, I have not run from this he!!...H ran and wants only smooth times and fun!...with 4 teens does anyone have this?<BR>Sorry to go on, but in truth they will either love me or they will not..that is their choice....but I know where I have been for them during this major mess and we all know where uncle dad has been. They will love me or hate me, but I cannot live with their indifference!<P>Lonelymom:<BR>Thanks for your input:<BR>While H has turned on everything he believed in before.....values, understanding of a parents role blah, blah, blah...he always was hedonistic and liked the finer things in life. He will always blame me and I do not believe he will ever take responsibility for his actions as he is emotionally superficial and has no understanding of the depth of despair his family has endured due to his actions. He continues to blame me for everything as he wanted it all...affair, family package, my enableing our lifestyle with my resources etc and I said no more...so it is and always will be my fault in his eyes. Until, if ever, he can confront his part in this mess then he will never ever grow.<P>He will never acknowledge that the affair led to the marriage breakdown and not vica versa. (He had it all) and to confront the mess he has made of his life will alwys be too painful. <BR>Lonelymom