First of all, there isn't one post to my earlier "Ex-wives, Rambos with PMS" that wasn't heart-felt, welcome, and respected. Thanks for writing.<P>I would like to clarify a few points that were seemingly missed in my first post, though.<P>First: I am a mother - two grown children, college degrees, they live 500 miles away from me but we talk and email all the time. I am a grandmother, and a wonderful one, at that! Yes, I do have all the pictures, to prove it.<P>Second: I have been divorced (been the EX) and was a widow prior to my marriage now. I am a registered nurse (pediatric psychiatric nurse for 12 years), court reporter, and paralegal. I was single mother during the period of time when my children were very small until they were teenagers.<P>I have listened to children and actually HEARD what they had to say about what they really felt about divorce, which is more than most "parents" or "bystanders" have done. <P>I have watched children be torn apart by their divorced parents (usually their mothers), being used as pawns and bargaining tools, as psychological mind game pieces, and as wedges between each other and the rest of the world. <P>More times than not, Ex-wives with children transfer all their hurt, guilt, remorse, fears, and paranoias onto the children that are left at home, especially if the children are very very young. This is not the exception. <P>When I used the term EX wives.... I mean EX wives with children at home, teaching their children that daddy was bad and left her so "don't love him or whoever he's with from now on." (Laying guilt on the children if they do love him). And Daddy's laying guilt on them because Mommy kicked him out and left him alone (guilt on the children if they love her). <P>My point in all this (because one who posted didn't see a point) was that I was answering a post to me on my statement "put marriage first, always." <P>If a marriage is nurtured and put first FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, then there are no gray areas, no guessing games, and no one feels as if they are losing their position in the home when the children come as a product of that marriage. <P>I was not at all saying that children should be ignored, neglected, or abused. I was saying that if children are taught that the authorities of the home show each other respect, honor, love, and authority, then the children will learn from that example, follow suit, and will probably not be children of a divorced home.<P>That's the point.<P>The EX's with children........ well, my statements still stand....... Those who have ever said things to their kids when they've returned from visitation like "What did he say while you were there this weekend?" Was SHE there? What did he say about me? Are they fighting like we used to? Did they sleep in the same bedroom?" or "Your Daddy is a jerk or an SOB," or "Why didn't that SOB ever take me there when we were married if he can take HER?" are as guilty of child abuse as anyone throwing a belt buckle.<P>THAT'S THE POINT.<BR>

Pesky,<BR>I agree with some of your statements. My children lived in a home with very little arguing.....and if there was some....it was resolved. They saw a mother and father who loved each other and witnessed it not only through words...but by actions.<P>I have been guilty of saying your dad is being a jerk. But...the truth is...he has/is. I am sick and tired of taking a man to court for being 5 weeks behind in child support. Borrowing money to pay the utility bill the was court ordered by him to pay, so that "our" children won't have to witness a police car come to our house and read us the "eviction" notice because you can not live in a home without utilities. I have had my phone disconnected by him. I have had all my credit cards canceled. I have had my cell phone reported stolen...and disconnected. I have been arrested by him and OW colluding with lies. Our children have witnessed alot. Their father calls repeatedly and spews nasty words about them and me. I have tapes...would you like to hear them. Then maybe you can put yourself in their shoes.....understand how confused...hurt...and unloved they feel. Then maybe when my daughters come up to you...ask you why they should be treated like that from someone who supposedly loves them....see what comment you might make.<P>I have defened his actions the best I can. I have nurtured and listened and kissed away their fears and pains. He hasn't...he just creates more.<P>But back to your statement. My children are going to be the product of a divorce. They, as well as I, did not see it coming. I have tried to never say a bad word...or speak negative about their father. But I am human....and so are those children. They can reach conclusions without a parent saying a word.<P>Our 10 year old knows making fun of her grades or making fun of her buck teeth...is not nice...and when her father continues until she is sobbing....how would you feel. When our 8 year old is picked up by her wrists and literally flung onto the bed and to have her father put his hand over her mouth and nose until she is gasping for air....do you think she walks away feeling loved? So I do not believe me telling them that their father is behaving inappropriate or for that matter like a "jerk"...it is the same as being beat with a belt buckle.<P>As for saying he never took me there .....or boy doesn't appear that he is broke by his spending habits....I don't need to say that. Never have. Again he takes care of that. When he picks them up for visitation, he claims he is so poor he can't feed them. But then tells them he will need to drop them off early because he is going to BW3 to watch the game and drink beer. Or I can't pick you up on Friday because my teeth hurt so bad. Proceeds to tell them all about the extensive cosmetic dental work he had done on his teeth....of course tells that to the daughter that he laughs at about her "bucky" teeth.<P>Explain to our daughter why he walked out the day before her birthday and did not call or come by for over 2 weeks. You see he made this mess....he created this atmosphere....not the horrible soon to be ex.<P>I will not hurt my children anymore than they hurt right now...because I love them. They know that I would never be "mad" at them if they love their father.....In fact I encourage it...of course I do get strange looks by them.<P>You try and sit and 8 year old and a 10 year old down and explain to them that what their father is doing is love. I think that you would see major eye rolling and disgust in their faces.

Mental, I agree with you completely. There are some parents who do intentially play mind games, but the majority of us are doing the best we can for our children and ourselves. We are human and make mistakes, but divorce is one of the worst things anyone can go through, and very few come out of it without some scars. I was divorced when my youngest was 13, and it was awful for her. Her father would call and tell her not to tell mother, but he was going out of town to visit his girlfriend!! I was the one there when she would cry her eyes out after talking to him on the phone. I was the one here when he left on Christmas day to pick up his OW at the airport and proceeded to spend the holiday weekend with her. I'm the one who made sure she got the psychological counseling she needed. And as the counselor said--you don't have to say a thing about her father, his behavior says it all!!

PeskyWabbit,<P>I do not agree that most Ex-wives are the horrible parents you portray them to be. I think the vast majority of them are doing their best, as db said. And I think that comparing the occasional negative comment to physical abuse is disrespectful to all those children who have actually suffered physical abuse at the hands of their parents. <P>Perhaps as a pediatric psychiatric nurse, you did not see a typical sample of children of divorce or divorced parents.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have listened to children and actually HEARD what they had to say about what they really felt about divorce, which is more than most "parents" or "bystanders" have done. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I find this statement offensive. Many of us do spend a lot of time and effort listening to and talking with (not to) our children, and to imply that you are somehow better at communicating with unrelated children than are their own parents strikes me as extremely presumptuous. <P>And my statement still stands that children are NOT in competition with the parents. Mature adults realize that love is not something that is quantifiable or limited - no one has to be put first or last - I love my H and each of our six children with all my heart, and there is nothing that fills my "love bank" more than watching my H display devotion toward our children. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited May 28, 2000).]

I am not sure you have talked to too many children. I do not have a diploma hanging over my head....but I should. A diploma that says "Good Parent". I listen to them...and believe me they are not saying that they are being used as psychological mind game pawns. They don't even know what that means.<P>Diploma or no diploma.....children respect and feel they need to protect the person that has been wronged. My children do that....I did not ask them to....imply to them that I wanted them to....and I have read all over this internet and in books that that kind of behavior is completely NORMAL. Many people think that instilling fear in a child is teaching them respect.<P>Children feel abandoned when a parent leaves.....normal. Children feel unloved by that parent who leaves....normal. But it is not normal for a child to disrespect a parent or another adult unless they have been treated with the same disrespect.<P>I will love my children through anything. They know that. But they have found out the painful way, that their father will only love when everything is his way.

PW,<P>I guess this lovely thread was directed to me since I'm the one who was wondering what your point is. I still do. I am here and posting because after 15 years of what I thought was a loving marriage, my H walked out to be with another woman. He has proceeded to miss our childrens' band concerts, ball games, holidays, etc. I have been here. And I've even covered for him, despite the fact I knew he was with the skanky ho. Now, why are you here? Are you trying to offer us future x-wives advice? Most of us are just doing our best. I love my children and I DO NOT like being compared with someone who beats children with a belt buckle...especially seeing as I was physically, emotionally and sexually abused as a child. Your comments were insulting. My children (thank God) have never known the horror I lived through, but that doesn't make their dad walking out on them any easier. You cannot imagine how many times I've bitten my tongue. I haven't hurt this much in a long time - I thought my H truly loved me. The first person who ever REALLY loved me. And he betrayed me. And do you know how hard it is to go through this without being able to cry when you want to cry? To be able to scream when you want to scream? It's damn hard. And I resent your implications that the mothers here are bound to emotionally cripple their children. How dare you!!! I cannot understand the complete lack of empathy you must possess to come here and "say" these things. Unless you are in the midst of a divorce, I suggest you keep your so-called "professional" opinions to yourself!<BR><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

I'm kind of glad you posted. Now I can say all the things that I would have loved to say to the Guardian ad Litem and the Custody Evaluator....who chose to believe a lying, cheating and abusive man over 2 children who simply want to be children....not a punching bag or a verbal target.<P>You need to go back to school and invest some of your time reading up on abuse......because if you feel that it is ok for a WS to hurt children and then have the abandoned spouse held responsible....your in the wrong place. Because....NEWS FLASH....the WS already has made us feel that way.<P>Children are not stupid.<P>I agree with what Keridwen said. I too have had to bite my tongue...smiled when I felt like crying......had to wait until the girls were tucked into bed to do my reading and writing. I can't even talk on the phone with a friend for support because of fear the girls will over hear me. <P>I am not responsible for their pain as it is today. I may be responsible for the breakdown of my marriage...because he says I am......But I am a good mother...still learning...but damn good.<P>Nancy

This post is truly obnoxious!<BR>You lead in with a *Velvet Glove* and then you come out swinging!<BR>What a pompous, arrogant, self-righteous, completely fictitious, freaking post this was!!!<BR>I WAS wondering what you were up to with the original post, now it's pretty obvious that you were looking to inflict some pain on some women you don't even know, who've had about all they can stand already...SHAME ON YOU!!!<P>There's a ton of vengefull, ranting, *Second Wives* sites on the net, why not join them?

This is probably the first time I have been fully on the side of betrayed wives, since it was my betrayer status that brought me to this forum in the first place. <P>I have been betrayed several times by my stbx, and damn if it wasn't the most difficult thing on earth to not trash him to his kids! When he first betrayed me, the kids were little, and my oldest daughter still remembers mom being 'crazy'... I cried for a year straight, gained and lost weight, screamed and yelled, and plotted revenge on the women (there were several). <P>When he betrayed me again, it was a different story, since our kids were older, and I had also betrayed. But I'll tell you this, I was as hard on myself as I was on him. And yes, the kids know everything. <P>So, I guess the question is: did I hurt my kids by all this? Here's how I see it...I did the best I could with what I had at the time, which is about as good as anyone can do. <P>For all of you wives who managed to keep your feelings to yourself during all this, I commend you. I have not been as successful, I'm afraid.<P>~Sheryl

PW,<P>I know I have already posted to this thread along with your other one, but I felt the need to post again. I think you do not understand the people here or the reason for this forum. Most of the people here (not all) have been betrayed by the person they loved most in the world and who had promised to love and cherish them for the rest of their lives. We are the walking wounded. Many of us have been hurt beyond belief. And since we don't want to damage our lives any more than necessary, we come here for support, encouragement, to vent, to rage, to cry - all with people who understand and have walked a mile (or more) in our shoes. I can only speak for myself, but I come here and vent for the sole reason of being able to keep my sanity in the everyday world. I can call my H names here. I can rage at what an SOB, jerk, creep, idiot, lout (I could go on) he is. When I get it out here, it helps me NOT to do it in front of my kids. They love their dad. Despite the fact he now ignores them when his "chicky baby" is around and doesn't bother to call them anymore. Despite the fact he doesn't participate as a father anymore. He quit being the Den Leader of my son's Cub Scout troup because it was too much trouble. He couldn't spend as much time planning for his life with the skanky ho. And guess what???? I am the one who had to take the phone calls from confused parents when he just bailed on the troup. I had to tell them that he had to work too much overtime to do Cub Scouts anymore. The fact of the matter is, he is out of work more now in the last 6 months than he has been in the last 15 years combined. I do not want to screw up my kids. So why are mothers being targeted by you? Why not wayward spouses who leave and shirk any responsibility for the well-being of their children? Oh, mine sends money, but he could care less about their emotional health. Where are we horrible x-wives supposed to go to vent our pain, grief and anger? We can't do it at home for fear of hurting our kids. We can't do it at work for fear of losing our jobs. We can't vent to x-spouse & their new love because they couldn't care less. So we come here. I think you have misconstrued a lot of what you have read here. We come here and say these things so we WON'T say them to our kids. I think you are preaching to the choir. It's the ones who refuse any form of release or help that need to hear what you have to say...not the ones here.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!<P>EVERYBODY.......TO NEUTRAL CORNERS.....NOW<P>I would like everyone to note something:<P>\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\The Ex-wives I've been reading about who use children, personal property, cars, clothes,<BR> houses, health, etc., as weapons of endless guilt and threats of financial devastation are<BR> not unlike my husband's ex-wife. <P> I just have one request to make of any man who either has a serious girlfriend or is<BR> thinking about marrying, but who also has an EX-wife with children......... if you're not<BR> willing to give your NEW wife (or serious other) the respect, honor, priority, importance,<BR> support, encouragement, loyalty, commitment, and respect you would any life-partner,<BR> than I suggest you get a cocker spaniel instead -- or become a shepherd.\\\\\\\\\<P><BR>that was the point.<P>many men on this forum are going thru hell and are posting about the evil things their ex-wives are doing, as are the women here as well....but, IF you know that your ex is a nutcase, then warn your partner to be......stand together...united..if you are not willing to do that, then do not get involved with anyone seriously....<P>I do not think this thread was aimed at all ex-wives in general.....read the posts, people...put them in their proper perspectives..<P>Men here complain, and pesky is making a comment on something she has experienced herself....<P>she is simply asking tha tif you know your ex is a psycho, tell the person you are with....<P>some of us had no warning.....and having lived through this, and continuing to live thru this, I know what pesky is talking about.....no, not all ex's turn into raving nutbars, but some do....<P>BEFORE YOU GET F...ING RUDE ALL OVER SOMEONE'S A$$........make sure you are not generalizing the info yourself...<P>and pesky,<P>yes, my stepson has said things about the divorce, and about his feelings that he has never told his mom, dad or social workers...and yes, this kid will be so screwed up later in life and it is so sad to watch it unfold..the guilt he feels just because he loves me, but is not really 'allowed' to.he has been told thatI do not matter, thatI am not to be respectedor listened to..the things he has been toldabout his dad and I's relationship (it started 5 years after the divorce, but son was allowed to think I broke them up)...the ex has physically attacked my H...in front of their child...<P>and all this takes place in an arena where we, as 2nd wives have no place....it affects us and our quality of life, but we have no recourse..other than getting fed up and having our children then becoming the products of divorce....<P>all because of bitterness and anger......on the part of the ex.....and this goes for ex-H's too...I have heard horror stories go both ways....<P><BR>speak not unless you have walked in the shoes and know whereof you speak....<P><BR>Dylan<P>ticked off because an evil ex has dominated, dictated and devastated my life, my H's life and that of 2 innocent children....for the past 5 years<P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

PW,<P>I wanted to say one more thing and then I promise not to post any more on this thread. Well, at least not immediately .<BR>I am coming from my point of view not only as a betrayed wife and mother of three abandoned children, but also as a child of divorce who has watched her father turn into someone I no longer know. My dad got remarried about 5 or 6 years ago. At first, things seemed great. I was really happy for him and I liked his new wife. She had two daughters and 2 grand-daughters and she was funny and charming. For a while, things seemed really good. But then we started noticing some really weird stuff. We were not allowed to go to my dad's house unless we called first. Now, this was the house we grew up in and had been going in and out of for 30 years. But we respected her wishes. So we would call to go and visit them. When we got there, she would hide in the bedroom and my dad would act really strange and distant. So me and my sister stopped calling and going over. We just saw our dad on the holidays when we got "invited" over. Pretty soon even those invitations dried up. Then we found out around town that our step-mom was spreading rumors that we only saw our dad when we "had" to and that we were just trying to hang on to our inheritance. Our new step-mom was spreading these rumors and telling our dad that we were trying to break her and my dad up. We did no such thing. My dad hasn't seen his grandchildren in 8 months, refused to come to my sister's wedding. I didn't even get a birthday card or Xmas present for heaven's sake. But I sent him birthday presents and Xmas presents, etc. So, as you can see, my impression of 2nd wives is not too good. I'm sure that colored my opinion of you and I apologize. But please consider "our" feelings too. We betrayed are hurting very much and we deserve more respect than you are giving us.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

Soulloss,<BR>Read the CURRANT post.<P>"More times than not, Ex-wives with children transfer all their hurt, guilt, remorse, fears, and paranoias onto the<BR>children that are left at home, especially if the children are very very young. This is not the exception."<P>MORE TIMES THAN NOT?...THIS IS NOT THE EXCEPTION?... <P>YES IT IS!<BR>I am sorry about you horrible experince but IT IS EXCEPTIONAL.

This may be a really stupid question...but...Is it just divorced mothers or fathers or could children from a completely happily married family witness their mothers fears.....their father or mothers guilt....their fathers or mothers hurt or remorse?<P>I know that my girls felt fear when their father was losing his high paying job when he was still living here. I know that they witnessed me crying on more than one occasion.....like when their grandmother was diagnosed with cancer...or when I relived being sexually abused or when one of the puppies died from our litter.<P>So is it bad because I am getting divorced that they now may see me cry...or that they may now know I have fear.....or should children realize that nothing is perfect in this world and learn that through fears...and crying...and hurt....and humiliation...that your life still goes on...that you strive to make right all your wrongs...and that even through all...that love still exists?