Murph - no dog, no beaches. Hiking trails I can find locally. But I haven't met a single dad on a playground in 5 yrs. You know, it's not like I live in a vacuum. Dad's don't usually hang out at ballet, piano, or other lessons. Grocery store? I haven't found them there either. Must be bad timing. <P>RWD - you could move the machine to your room. My children know not to touch the machine. I deal with the messages. You could let her know she could leave a brief message - basically name and number but no details. You could get a pager. Just some options. If the children are ok with it, I wouldn't sweat too much.<P>Ok! We all know women struggle with the sex issue. I have a feeling we aren't the only ones but it does seem we're the only ones who will talk about it. It's time for me to hear from the men.<P> NOTE - I SAID MEN NOT MAN!!!!!!<P>Do you guys - plural - struggle with the how far and when issues the way we women do? How do you know where to draw your boundaries? How far into the relationship? All those things you've heard us discuss. <P>Yes, we need to hear from you. We're sitting here wondering where you fellows hide and what you think. Enlighten us. After all, you are affected by our views on the matter and you don't want us to misunderstand you.<P>Personally, after this long time, I've started seeing someone with whom there is a lot of chemistry but I don't yet know if it's general lust or true attraction. You would want to help me make a right choice wouldn't you? <P>MEN or MICE? Speak up!! Are you man enough?<BR>Can you rise to the challenge?

"Can you rise to the challenge" No pun intended <P>711, <P>I would never flame you or anyone else for having sex. My current beliefs about sex before marriage are more practical (for me) than moral or religious. I have been way around the block in that respect before I was married. I was the one who cheated on my second husband. Once. I confessed, he couldn't forgive me. Long story. <P>Anyway, I have something to prove to myself. I was like a "guy" in alot of ways. Using sex to feel an emotional connection. 99.99999% of the time with my husband. That one time I strayed shook me to the core. Given my experience before marriage (which was more than the average woman I'm guessing) made me wonder if I had some problem. Given all the OTHER reasons for not having sex before marriage, me personally, I need to truly evaluate my reasons for having sex. <P>Also, I had sex early in my relationship with both of my husbands. Coincidence? who knows? But the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. Dating the way I'd always dated obviously wasn't getting me anywhere. so, there's my explanation. <P>They always say, that when it is right you will know it. You know that doing anything else will feel like crap in the long run. I know you are lonely. I slept next to my husband almost every night for 8 yrs and I miss that alot sometimes. Sleeping with someone new won't bring him back, or even that connection back. I suppose it summons memories of a better time, but still, not enough to take that risk with someone new. that is just me.

Thanks everyone for helping me with my latest dilemna.<P>Of course, I am getting lots of conflicting advice. Nothing is ever easy in life is it. Always gray!<P>I will let you know how this ends up.<P>

I am mostly a lurker here, but this topic is near and dear. A quick bio: W engaged in year long affair, separated six months, 2 kids, married 16 years.<P>Like many of you, I had little interest in another relationship. I consider myself emotionally unstable. My W has asked for a D but has yet to follow through with it. I am having difficulty in accepting her decision given 2 kids and 16 years. So, why would I want to complicate my life or drag someone else down with all my emotional issues.<P>I got to talking with someone facing their own relationship issues, D after long term marriage. We met, went too far. Any objective view would say we made a mistake.<P>For me, it was no mistake. It was a great experience. Not sure whether this relationship will develop further or not. I think we both feel the risk of getting hurt again. My friend has a wonderful outlook on this. She said that a person has to risk getting hurt to feel the great passion from an exciting relationship. I have spent most of my life playing it safe. Time for a different strategy.<P>When we met, neither of us expected a physical relationship to blossom right away. But from the second we hugged and held each other, I knew it was what I wanted and needed. I can't speak for her, but for me, holding her tight, and being held back, was something I'll remember for the rest of my life.<P>Someone asked what "we men" think about "you women" who are looking for a relationship, serious or casual. Perhaps I am not a good person to answer this question because I am a betrayed H myself. My answer is be HONEST.<BR>Tell me what it is you are ready for or looking for. We are not kids anymore. I can handle anything.<P>As for how do I feel about this woman who conspired with me to make this awful mistake? I think she is wonderful, and I can't wait to see her again.

Men!! Are you out there? Have you spoken up yet? <P>I'll be gone tomorrow. Back Thursday and I expect to have your comments. And since I can't easily tell here who is male and who isn't, please identify yourselves!<P>Please note the plurality of these pronouns!!

Here is my 2 cents!<P>I have been living with the rejection of my husband for 2 long years, although I have only recently left him. In fact, for a long time I have lived in the shadow of every woman he knew before me, and every woman that he loved while he was with me. Our marriage has been over for a long time -- but I just found the courage to leave.<P>I have fallen hard for a wonderful guy already! Yes, we are dating... But NO SEX. Not that I wouldn't LOVE some! This is my line I have drawn -- and yes, it comes from my beliefs about the teachings of the Bible and my attempts to hold back some of my emotions.<P>Am I scared? YES! Is it too soon? Well, I thought this one over for awhile. I have decided that timing isn't everything. He is fully aware of the issues with my X. And we are there for each other -- he has some issues as well, having left a long-term relationship a few months ago. But should we say no to our relationship because of these issues? I don't think so, although this is a danger zone! We are taking our time about making a final commitment, although our dating is exclusive. I would not trade this for anything in the world. Yes, one or both of us could get desperately hurt. But the relationship is worth the risk, for us.<P>1) Honesty<BR>2) Communication<BR>3) Respect<P>Both so important. We share our insecurities and do our best to be honest with each other. We aren't babes any more -- we are both approaching 40. So we are grown adults, both knowing the risks we are taking.<P>So there -- do what you want with this. Each of us who has been betrayed has to make our own decision as to when we are ready to take the control of our emotions back and not let ANYONE manipulate us. When we are ready to trust, and when we are ready to date.... these are individual decisions. But YOU ARE WORTHWHILE! And as for finding someone.......... It will happen when you least expect it!

IMO, it is women who most likely end up feeling used sexually if a non-marital relationship doesn't work out. Even if a guy would admit to feeling "used" they don't feel real bad about it. <P>Honestly, I wouldn't care how wonderful the guy thought I was. If things don't work out, I don't want to have to go through all the aggravating STD tests with the next guy, and the next one, and the one after that. Basically, I won't have sex with a guy just cause he likes me. If he likes me for me, having sex with him isn't going to change anything. If he decides he doesn't like me so much later on down the road, then I haven't swapped fluids with yet ANOTHER person. <P>I'll agree, being honest is important. If you've got the hots for someone, don't kid yourself or try to talk yourself into believing it is love, cause it's not. Go ahead and have sex and acknowledge that love has nothing to do with it. REAL love doesn't happen overnight. Haven't we all learned that from betraying spouses?<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited June 13, 2000).]

TheStudent,<P>I guess your question is somewhat directed at me because I'm the one with the "wonderful" friend. I think I agree with most of your points about how guys view these relationships.<P>I was just talking with my friend about some of these very questions. She said she would not feel used if I told her I wouldn't be seeing her again. I'm very glad for that because I don't think she should feel that way. We were very honest about where we both were emotionally. I think we were helping each other before we met (she was helping me, I was mostly ranting). I began to think she was a pretty unique person with her willingness to help me, and her insights. By getting together, we are continuing to help each other. <P>Would I continue to think she is "wonderful" if there was no sex? I think this is a good question. I have my theories about adult male/female relationships. They are either developing toward something, or they are growing further apart. They rarely stay the same over time. (my friend disagrees, by the way) So if there was no sex from this point forward, I think our relationship would begin to drift apart. How long would I have hung around if there was no sex? Quite a while I think, if she would have me. She has a great easy going manner about her, fun and easy to talk to. Great listener. Likes to laugh, but can be serious too. I would have liked to spend some time with her. And I will. But if nothing developed from there, eventually you begin to drift apart.<P>If it all ends tomorrow would I say "at least I got some sex out of it." No, I don't think so. What I would remember about it is how emotional and desparate I felt to be close to someone, how it happened, and how grateful I felt that someone cared enough to help me during a very difficult time.

Hbill,<P>I'm glad we are having this discussion. Many times women ask "how do I know he is not feeding me a line?" and my usual response is that if you have sex before marriage, you have no idea if it is a line or not. I can tell you are sincere about keeping an open mind with this woman, being honest and not making any promises. <P>However, alot of men will play at love to get a woman into bed, even nice ones. Professing caring feelings, etc, and the small print basically says "no commitment". And they might even have actual caring feelings. But the bottom line is that they are using each other till something better comes along. Ok. that is fine. You use me, I use you. We're both happy. I just don't want to see any women getting all mushy if some guy comes along and treats them nice, cause it ain't that hard to do. Be nice that is. <P>My other point is that a person can have a caring friendship/relationship to help them through this tough time without possibly exposing themselves to disease dujour and even greater emotional risks. Would you feel so wonderful about this woman if you contracted an STD from her? Condoms don't always do the job. Are you willing to risk that to get yourself through this period in your life? I'm not.<P>Somehow, I just can't feel all warm and fuzzy about someone who makes a habit out of having recreational relationships. I don't feel comfortable using someone else emotionally to prop myself up. I wouldn't like it if they did that to me. I don't want to be anyone's rebound woman , and I would never make anyone my rebound man. Oops. I'll take that back. I did use someone as my rebound man ONCE, and I lost my marriage. <P>My second husband had only been broken up with his girlfriend for 6 months when he met me. In retrospect,he had no business getting involved with someone. He had way too many issues that weren't resolved. I was way too "helpful". Now I wouldn't even think of getting near a guy who hadn't been divorced or broken up from a long-term relationship at least a year, maybe two, and had dated others before me. I'm not breaking anyone else in. That is ok. I'm not expecting anyone else to break me in either. We can be friends and hang out. That is as far as it goes.<P>Also, my sister dated a man for 6 months without having sex with him. This was after not having dated for two years after her divorce. He told her he loved her, etc.etc. She had sex with him and he gave her herpes. When she confronted him, he broke up with her. She later found out that he knew he had herpes. She gets to live with this the rest of her life now. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited June 13, 2000).]

Wow, now we are talking. Add a little sex to the equation and we will hit 200 replies before we know it. Good idea, Cinderella, to ask for some more men to start talking.<P>Glad to hear from Hbill. Your relationship sounds a lot like mine. Except of course, we have not ventured yet into the forbidden zone.<P>I have a date tonight and plan to discuss this topic. He has agreed to go as slow as I want. But, you know I am struggling with that. We have been kind of dancing around this issue but I think it is time to figure out where we are both headed.<P>The Student is right. I don't think this is love. But, just pent up desire. But, boy, it sure feels good to let some of that loose. <P>Talk to everyone later.<P>

711,<BR>Yes, it sure would be nice. Ah, to be back in the good 'ol seventies. All the sex without the worries <P>Ya know, I guess I'm just way too picky and onery in my "old" age. I want real love in my life and I'm not going to go through sex to get it.<P>I'm glad you have someone around who makes you feel sexy and wanted. Hormones can be a nice thing. Frustrating at times, but still exciting.<BR>

O Studios One,<P>I would certainly like to tell everyone here that I had thought about all the issues you raised, and provide counter arguments to defend myself and my actions. Well, I can't. Truth is, I agree with just about everything you are saying.<P>Truth is, guys can be nice, they can use a line. And I suspect, that the hotter they are for someone, the better they are with the nice and the lines. Typical me though, I used all the wrong lines. To be honest, I wouldn't know how to use them in the first place. At one point, I was ranting and raving at this friend to save her marriage. It wasn't a line, I meant it. I was disgusted and distraught that yet another marriage w/children was going down the tubes like mine. She had been telling me that her marriage was way over, but in typical fashion, I wasn't listening. So how do you know if it is just a line? In our case, you have to judge whether the person is being honest or not about their intentions. I guess my friend and I came to same conclusion that we were being honest with each other. Time will tell.<P>Regarding STD's and the risks we were taking, again I think you are right. We could have provided each other plenty of support without the risks. I didn't think about this very much, and I guess that isn't very smart. I feel worse about the risks I created for her, than the ones I created for myself. I hope she is not troubled by this, and we are going to have to talk about it. Again, it comes down to honesty, and how certain you feel about another's honesty. We told each other we had only been with our spouses. For me this is true, but she can't know that for sure. Also I told her I had been with my W a couple of times after her affair began. I can't vouch for W or OM as far as where they have been, so the risks are out there. My question for you is, how do you deal with this issue conservatively? Do you ask for documented medical records? I suspect in the end, most people are going to "jump in" based on their trust in the person, and whether they believe the person isn't just sleeping around. Some will say that my friend and I couldn't know each other well enough to make a good decision. What can I say, I trust her. Plus, we live with other risks all around us. I drive too fast, and read the sports section while driving sometimes. Stupid. And risky.<P>You said, "I wouldn't use someone else to prop myself up emotionally." No rebounding, etc. Well, again I agree. At least I thought I would never do that. But I did. I also was very honest about it with my friend. I told her I was confused and needy and wanted her to hold me up. She was willing, and I am forever grateful. How do you (I) explain it. I saw some clips of the movie "Groundhog Day" last night. You hear many stories here on MB about people in an emotional state of flux. Everyone says you will heal with TIME. I believe them. But my life started to feel like "Groundhog Day." Time WAS passing. But tomorrow ended up being just like today. I was in emotional jail. I could walk around the cell all day long, I could even walk outside occasionaly, and I could always look out the window. But in the morning when I woke up, I was right back in emotional jail. <P>My friend let me out of jail. Thursday will be different from Wednesday, thank God. Yeah, I've still got all the crazy emotions running around my head. I am still fringhtened to death for my kids and what they will face going forward. Will all the risks, all the potential pain and hurt from this rebound, for both of us, be worth it in the end? I can't say for sure. But man, I feel a hell of a lot better than I did two weeks ago.

Hey 711,<P>Don't hold back. Want to hear about the big date.

HBill,<BR>thank you very much for your thoughtful response. It is worthwhile having this discussion so that people can put some thought into everything that is involved. <P>I mentioned my sister. She too "trusted" and jumped in. Now she gets to take medication every day for the rest of her life. Supposedly herpes outbreaks diminish as you get older, though, thank goodness for her.<P> She had slept with two men before she met her husband. Herpes man was #4. Considering that she was about 30 when this happened, I consider her to be pretty choosy about who she sleeps with. Here I was, married to a guy (my first H) who slept with everything that walked, prostitutes, you name it, without protection. I've never had an STD. LUCKY ME!!!! Your girlfriend, or you, could be carrying a disease and not even know it! You can pass herpes and have very minimal symptoms, like something resembling an ingrown hair. Have either of you gotten tested for anything? Sorry. I'm on my soapbox. I just don't want to see anyone else go through what my sister did. <P>There is absolutely nothing shameful about requesting STD tests. Herpes can be diagnosed from a blood test, as well as all of the others. For those of us over 35/40 it might feel wierd, but the times-are-a-changin'. <P>I know what it is like to be lonely. I know what you mean about Groundhog Day. During my Groundhog Days, I seriously contemplated suicide. I can't imagine putting my welfare in the hands of an almost total stranger at a time like this. <P>There is simply too much at stake for me. All of my closest friends lived about a 6 hr. drive away. Fortunately for me, my parents moved within an hour's drive, and I have a very good (female) friend nearby. Making my decision to simply not date has been a huge relief. It wasn't at first. It took awhile to find people to hang out with. I'm pretty happy with the way things are right now though. This last weekend I went sailing with one of my friends. Last night, I shared a bottle of wine with my next door neighbor. The weekend previous, I went into a road-race with my roommate and then we hung out at the park all day with the dogs. It is very, very nice. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited June 14, 2000).]

HBill: You had me laughing so hard when I read your last comment to me. I started wondering if you were my boyfriend in disguise trying to talk me into sex.<P>We had dinner at Dave and Busters and had fun riding the motorcyles, etc. We did a lot of talking, mostly about whether we should be dating so soon. I should have just given him a print out of this post. We decided what the hell, let's date and have some fun. Tonight he is coming over to talk some more. I'm still unsure about all this and need some more convincing. This should be interesting. It sounds like your situation is working out pretty good for now and that you know that it could blow up at anytime. That's kind of how we feel about our relationship. It's risky but we think it's worth the risk. I'll keep you posted.<P><p>[This message has been edited by 711 (edited August 17, 2000).]

I wanted to jump in and add my bit about STD's.<P>Maybe I am old fashioned. I fooled around a little in college...but never had intercourse until I was engaged to my H and he had not either. I was proud of the fact that we had both waited for each other.<P>When I found out about the affair...besides being hurt ect...I was like he gave me germs. <P>He told me I had nothing to worry about...she had not slept around ect...I told him you never know for sure...and what of her H's sexual history.<P>So...it was hard, but a couple of weeks ago I went and had all the test done...and gave my H the bill for it. It was very hard to tell them that NO, I was not in for my annual, I was there because my H had an affair. They were very compassionate with me and I was embrassed...but I felt it was something I had to do.<P>I do not have anything and if my next realtionship wants proof.....I have it. I think I may want proof from him too.....who ever that might be....<P>I find this thread very interesting....as I myself, although my D won't be final for a couple of months as ready to find someone just to do some stuff with. My H told me last night to start dateing....<P>

I also believe that you must protect yourself...a night of lust is not worth a lfe, or non life of illness. <BR>After discovering the affair, I too went and got checked, even though my X told me he had not yet had sex with her. But after the second discovery, I just didn't believe him. So, when he moved out the last time, I got checked again. I was ok. Got rechecked 5 months later...still ok. <BR>My friend and I discussed this, as he had been single for three years, and had had a monogamous relationship for a year of that. He and her both got checked before he would do anything. That really impressed me. So, when we knew we were contemplating sex, I asked him to get checked for me. He did, and saw my results. We were very up front about it.<BR>Todays age just doesn't allow any casual sex. And believe me, I was single in the 70s, where anything went. But now you must protect yourself.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Susan

I have been reading this thread,and I will jump in and add my 2 cents. <P>First,I will say that I don't think that there is such a time line that one should follow,if you feel that you are ready,for what ever it may be,just friendship,companionship,what ever the case it is up to the individual.<P>With now a days.......it scares me to death to think of all the stuff that is out there.<P>I have been w/my H/stbx for almost 16 years..(since I was 19,now I am almost 35.)<P>I have made jokes about this,I will have the poor guy fill out a resume on his medical history,past and present,family background,upbringing and so on...LOL...(I am jokeing but kinda serious at the same time.Ya,know what I mean.)I am going to be way picky and not just settle for some guy that can make me LOL.<P>I am really missing right now the companionship,and friendship of a man,going hikeing in the mountains, fishing, swimming, camping out under the night sky,maybe even go to a baseball game or some sporting event where you eat hot dogs and pop corn and drink my favorite Miller lite beer,ya know just going out and having fun.Or just to sit on the sofa and snuggle w/eachother watching a good movie.<P>Nothing serious,but just the affection,hand holding,kissing,holding eachother and talking.(I miss all of that actually way more than the actual act of sex.)(don't get me wrong tho,I do miss "that" too!)I supose it is the intimacy of the closeness of a man,his strong arms wrapped around me,the smell of his cologne.<<<<<sigh>>>>>><P>Ok,I better stop or I will start to sound like a "Romance Novel"...LOL....LOL.. <P>Good luck to everyone..........I hope that someday we can all have the happiness that we all deserve!<P>Take it easy and you all Hang in there!<P>Gina <BR><P>------------------<BR>"If we deny love that is given to us,if we refuse to give love because we fear pain or loss,then our lives will be empty,our loss greater!"-----Anonymous----

Gina, <BR>I am with you here..I also mised that closeness, that companionship, the hugging and kissing. But what I found is that when I got that, I wanted all the rest!!!!!<BR>At 45, I wasn't sure I would even feel sexual again. My x and I had an ok sexual relationship, and I was happy ( I thought) with that. <BR>When I started seeing my friend, we just did the holding, kissing thing, but man, I started wanting more, and more. And we did a lot of talking abou it. I had piles of questions for him, like, "How was it the first time with someone else, did you want it sooner, or could you have waited", etc.<BR>He was patient and answered my questions. <P>One night, he came over. No kids at home, they were with Dad for the weekend. We had been seeing each other a while. We had a romantic dinner and talk. I just decided I wanted to and asked him. It was comfortable, safe, a little scary, I will admit. But for me, I was ready. <P>So, I took the plunge. Do I feel used?? Absolutely not. It was a decision I made because I wanted to. And, I don't regret it. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

Sue,<P>I am glad to hear that you have found someone that you are comfortable w/.That is great!<P>I do understand about wanting more.I will probably be the same way!<P>I just don't get out enough......or should I say in the area's that there are a lot of men around.I am some what shy to the fact of first meeting someone.....(what you say? Gina shy???..no,way.....but ya,I let the guy do the initiating.....I couldn't just go up to some strange guy and start a conversation.)But once I know him and we see eachother for awhile,than I am not shy at all.<P>I work w/all women,so I am not around men,I guess for now that is a good thing! <P>I am hoping the D will be over in Aug.<BR>I don't think that I could start anything until after that........but than you never know.....right??????...I just might find my prince!.....LOL....ya,sure when pigs fly.. <P>Good luck w/your new guy......sounds great!<BR>Have some fun! You do deserve it! <P>Gina <P><P>------------------<BR>"If we deny love that is given to us,if we refuse to give love because we fear pain or loss,then our lives will be empty,our loss greater!"-----Anonymous----