We've been married over 11 years and the going is very rough right now. Over 3 years ago, I found out I was clinically depressed, and I then spent the next 3 years going to therapy and taking medication. What I learned during the therapy was that I had some lifelong people-pleaser tendencies and that this resulted in me being unfulfilled in life and marriage - I felt that I met my wife's needs, but that she wouldn't meet mine. As a result of therapy, medication, but also a lot of work, I feel much better about myself and my ability to ask for what I want.
<p>The problem, though, is that there is little affection from my wife. After some months of this, I asked her why she doesn't touch me, hold my hand, say that she loves me, etc. - and she replied that the year before I went to therapy was hell for her and what feelings she had seem to have "been killed off." She says she still loves me and wants the marriage to work, but she still feels unwilling to return affection or give it. Some of this I had guessed from the way she acted, but hearing it finally is a real blow. My wife has never talked much with me and she rarely is open about her personal feelings - hearing this from her makes me wonder if she's just telling me about the tip of the iceberg. My wife's parents had a miserable marriage, so maybe she had a bad role model for marriage. My wife is a very disciplined and talented runner, almost obsessive - I see how hard she works on that and how much time she spends on the computer doing website work, and I feel resentful that she won't spend 5 minutes sitting with me.
<p>So what do I do? I've wanted to go to marriage counseling for some time but she has refused. This morning, she said she'd go - that's good and I'm looking now for a counselor. But she also said that it's ironic that after I have changed so much and improved that she still doesn't have feelings of affection for me.
<p>I know that withdrawing is not the thing to do, but all I want to do is not be around her - I feel a huge amount of rejection and I am so sad about it all that I want to withdraw so I don't get hurt anymore. She feels sorry for me now and has told me how great I am and has put her arm around me. But I don't want affection from her because she's concerned that I'm so sad, I want it because she feels it.
<p>Where do I go from here? I want to keep working on things and I don't want to give up, but I don't want to get hurt more than I am feeling now.

Are you certain that she is not having an affair? My wife acted exactly the same as yours.....?

There is another person who posts here off and on who has been through what your wife is saying she's been through. She has dealt with a depressed husband who has refused to get treatment until recently, and has also admitted "withdrawing" emotionally from him. It apparently is a common defense mechanism and is difficult to come out of. There is a feeling of emotional betrayal, almost, and it is hard to overcome.
<p>My feeling (and I'm not a counselor, just a wife whose husband is leaving her) is that you should be as loving and kind and thoughtful to her as you can. While depression is a disease and therefore you should not be held "responsible" there has still been emotional stress to your wife and she is having a hard time putting that behind her.
<p>I have read something about Solution-Oriented Brief Therapy, which is similar, I think, to the type of therapy they use here. Instead of trying to figure out *where* the behaviors are rooted, solve the immediate problems by making a plan of action. There is less blame and more solution. I would see if you can find a counselor who specializes in marriage counseling and uses SBT in the counseling.
<br>You might even try the telephone counseling offered through this website.
<p>Just my opinion.
<p>terri

Patrick,
<p>I'm the person of whom terri refers to. I have been living with a depressed H for about six years now. The last three being the worst of it. I know and understand where your wife is coming from and hope I can help you in some way. One thing that has been hard for me to handle is that my H tells me he is better and acts as if things should just pick up and be ok from there. I want him to acknowledge what his depression has done to me/us. I don't know if that is justified or not but it is the feeling I have. I also am to the point where I want him to make the moves. He asks me all the time why I don't hug him or talk with him like I do others. I just got so used to not being able to hug him that I don't really know how to start. Its almost like I need him to start courting me again but he feels that after being married for nine years that we should be past that. As far as talking with him, I don't feel like I can share anything with him because what if what I say sends him into his depression again. What if I have hope and faith and trust in him and he slips into his depression again and I'm back where I started. I know we have to take the steps together but I'm afraid to go with him for fear of falling with him. In my mind I want him to make everything better before I open up. I guess I'm looking for a proof that can not be provided. I wish I was clearer on my thinking but this is not a clear cut situation. I think you are off to a better start in the fact that you recognize that the two of you need therapy together. My H and I have our first session tonight and I am scared to of going. I have been going alone for three months now. He has been going alone to someone else for six months. He doesn't think we need this but is willing to humor me. You should definitly get the counseling if she is willing to go. This may help her to open up to you more and in a more constructive way. I don't want to bring you down but your right about this just being the tip of the iceberg. For me, with my H and his depression I learned to have a life with out him because he could not be counted on. Now I have to learn to let him back in, and as silly as it may sound, it is not an easy thing to do.
<p>As far as things you can do everyday. Just keep loving her, don't smother her, listen to her, talk with her about the things that interest her, plans activities that show you want to get out and do things, write her cards telling you how you feel, do the things you did when you first met her. Make a date night that is just the two of you with no kids. And most importantly, hold her without the expectation of . Let her know that you are there for her in all ways.
<p>If you have any questions I will try to answer as honestly as I can. It sometimes hurts to look at yourself so closely and see what is really there in your heart. My prayers are with you.
<p>Steph

Hi all,
<br> This is my first post as I just found this site. I am glad to find a place to discuss problems like these and maybe some solutions or at least people who will listen. Any way my situation seems to fit here.
<br> My wife and I have been married for 7 years. She was a very dependent person when I married her. We were both just out of very bad marriages when we met and we were married a few short weeks later. She needed and wanted someone who would guide her, take care of her, and basically I guess treat her like a child. I did that for her,(very bad move now that I have hindsight). We had a very good marriage until about 4 years ago. I was in a depression,(I didn't know it at the time so I did not seek help), I did not like anyone or anything, I was not very kind to her or my 4 children still at home. About 6 months or so ago she basically grew up all of a sudden. She has become a very changed person, some good, some bad. In becoming this new person she also sayes she loves me but she is not in love with me,(I said"HUH"), from what I am reading this is not as far fetched as I thought. We seem to have no trouble most of the time with affection, kissing, holding hands, sitting arm in arm watching TV and so on but she sayes she mentally can not have sex with me. At first she tried and acually shook with fear and could not stand my touch. Since then we have tried a few times with very little happening. We tried counseling but he was very poor and all it turned out to be was an argument with him watching. She is still seeing a counselor on her own anyway.
<p> I have tried in every way to show her how much I love her and have did everything I could to correct anything I was doing wrong with her and the children but it seems like it has helped very little. She sayes what she needs more than anything is time and space to allow the old feelings to return on their own, I feel like if I don't try constantly to rebuid the marriage it will die on it's own. I push too much I guess but I can't seem to stop. I have tried believe me but I fail each time. I drive for a living so I am gone a lot making it harder due to the fact that when I return home I want to work on it and she still wants to ignore it and let it work out on it's own. She also sayes that the last 4 years have been hell on her, however she was very good at hiding it, our love making was great, she seemed happy and contented with the marriage to the point of telling me how happy I made her and how great I was so it was very devastating to me emotionaly when she dropped the bomb on me when she decided to change and be strong.
<p> I guess what I am looking for is some insight or suggestions on how to give her the time and space she wants without giving up as I really love this woman and want to spend the rest of my life with her. Every time I try I fail. I just last night took her to a grassy hill overlooking the lake where I had set up a small table with candels two glasses of wine, spread a blanket on the ground, it was perfect, the moon was bright, she loved it and was very impressed and looked great, then it happened, I SCREWED UP!!!! Like a fool I tried to make love to her. Well needless to say it was bad and become a very bad argument. I even good angry because she wouldn't, bad huh?
<p> I feel like after 7 years I shouldn't have to date her and start all over agian but she sayes that is what we are doing??? I feel I have much improved and I know it is here to stay but she wants proof by waiting to see if it will last before she commits herself agian, is this normal? I feel that if we could just go on with our lives without the condition that all the problems be solved first that most of the problems will work themselves out, she doesen't.
<p> Sorry for the rambleing on I promise to get better at this but for now I am confused and just typing as I think.
<p> I will be thankful for any words of wisdom or ideas. Good luck to all.

Patrick and RB,
<p>My situation has similarities to both of yours. I haven't posted for a few days.
<br>One thing I can tell you for a cold hard fact; get used to loving your wives without expectation of return affection if you want them back. It is one hard thing to do, and you may as well pick out a private spot to cry because you'll need it. But there is no way around it.
<br>Don't even try to figure them out. It's a path to insanity and anger outbursts, which by the way will cause you to crash and burn quicker than anything in her eyes. For some reason they have to do it this way. It has nothing to do with logic or thinking it out, like men (some anyway) do.
<br>Last Friday my wife was sick and staed home from work. I decided to send her some flowers. I had the florist deliver a dozen roses with these words attached:
<p>Though faded beside your beauty
<br>and dim next to your eyes
<br>these flowery tokens of my love
<br>grow from a heart that sighs
<p>She said it's something I didn't used to do much. So I did it. Later I called to see how she was. She said much better and that she got the flowers. Her next words were..."And the reason you sent them was....?"
<br>I was speechless. I said I didn't have an answer. I said I guess I was sending them for the reason a man usually sends a woman flowers, because he loves her and wants to make a good impression, wants to say something he can't say with words. In short my feeling were really hurt.
<br>A little later I went to work on a lady's computer. She is having marital problems also and we've talked about our respective situations. I asked her for the female perspective on my wife's response to the flowers. She said my wife was looking for an ulterior motive, but that I shouldn't take it personally, just let it roll off my back. SHe said by the time I got home the case may change.
<br>When I got home she did hug me and thanked me for the flowers. We also made love. Tonight she spent a lot of time on the computer and on the phone. I used to go ballistic about this. Now I don't. I haven't had an argument with her in over a week. That's great considering how it was just a few weeks ago. I mentioned the computer and she told me not to go there. She actually said, "I am trying, don't mess it up." Well, she isn't trying a lot in my view, but even that admission is more than I've gotten in a long time. I said, "OK, I'll take it".
<br>She said she noticed that I have been much calmer this week and have not argued with her. She said that was really good because every time I argue she said it makes her want to go. When I mentioned the computer she said there were things I still was not doing, though she acknowledged what I was doing. I said, "Ok, we both know my faults. And I'm sure I have plenty of room for improvement. But it's time for you to stop keeping things in and TELL ME WHAT YOU WANT. I CAN'T READ YOUR MIND."
<br>To my surprise she said, "Fair enough". The reason why this is hopeful to me is that, according to Dr. Harley, it signifies entering the state of conflict when you can have that sort of give and take. And the state of conflict is preferable to that of withdrawl where the spouse doesn't want to work anything out.
<br>There were a couple of times earlier this week where I could barely contain myself because I wanted to argue or demand better treatment. But I held back. Now I'm so glad I did. Guys I'm telling you that the woman sees this stuff in such a different way that you will almost certainly wreeck it if you just see it from the male persspective. To us (she'll spend all that time on the computer and with others but not 5 min. with me) it is so obviously rude, unfair and downright cold hearted rejection. When we see that it makes us crazy. But the woman not only doesn't see it that way she is no consciously doing to us what she appears to be doing.
<br>I'm telling you that to survive this thing you've got to get re-wired in your perceptions then get prepared to weather it like a storm. There is (as far as I can tell) no other way.
<br>I may meet another brick wall tomorrow in our relationship. But today it was ok. And if there is anything I'm learning it is to take it one day at a time. Hang in there guys. I know the desparation can be overwhelming, but you can whip this if you're willing to learn a whole new perspective. Not that I've whipped. I may be crying tomorrow. But I'm not today. And I've learned to appreciate that. You will, too.
<p>
<br>

Thank you for the advice. I went out and bought a copy of _How to Win Your Lover Back_ and am reading it. I already knew most of the answers, but was too focused on my needs to care - in short, I've focused on meeting my short-term needs instead of the long-term.
<p>Telling me to look forward to giving affection but not expecting any in return makes me a little scared, but at the same time I love my wife and want to do what I can within reason to make our life together work out. It'll be hard and yes, I've already picked out my spot to sob or show sadness where she can't see it.
<p>While I went through 3 years of therapy, my depression improved dramatically within the first 6 months. As a result of this, I've always felt my wife needed some form of therapy. She is a _runner_, and has told me she feels accepted socializing only w/other runners. This sort of behavior put stress on socializing outside of her circle. I couldn't seem to do anything to improve her lack of confidence.
<p>However, I guess I have to suspend my reasoning to make things work out. She _is_ trying to be nicer to me and has told me that she wants us to have a happy, long marriage.

I can relate to the two people posting about spouses becoming depressed. I was the one in the relationship that went through the depression - for about a year. And I knew that afterwards, it was up to me to get things back together and I TRIED not to be selfish and not to think about my needs. My husband had to trust again and I knew it would take time.
<p>Well, starting last fall I started to feel better and things improved a little, not much but a little. We were at least talking about issues and fighting about them again. Then in spring it got even better - he was feeling more supported and loved. Then in May I took the final step to getting my life in order and did the one thing that was still bothering my husband - my weight - and I started to lose the pounds. So, now it has been a year since I started out of the depression and we are back to a good place! We still have our issues and when we fight my husband automatically goes back to "Here we go again, I knew it wouldn't last." But we are going there less and less. He feels supported, he feels our marriage is in a good place and we are planning our future as if we KNOW we will be together forever.
<p>And it is difficult - I had to put my needs last and wait and wait! If we fought, I had to take the first step in making things better. But the work paid off! We are IN LOVE again and that's important. We always loved each other, but now that "in love" feeling is back and I hope to keep it there.
<p>So, you need to court your spouse again. You may feel that you did this already, but you lost it and need to get it back. Do things to please him/her. Show that you are there for them. Admit that you were lousy but are trying to get past that and are also trying to make sure you never go there again. I told my husband that if he ever saw me slipping into a depression again, to tell me and I would seek help immediately. Sometimes you don't see it yourself when it is happening!
<p>Funny, now that my husband and I are doing well, now I buy the marriage books by Harley! I want to keep us in that good place, so I'm learning better ways to deal with conflict and ways to keep us from going there in the first place. Seeking help in crisis is sometimes too late.
<p>
<br>melissa
<br>

Melissa, thanks for posting. You've given me some more hope---
<br>Steph---once again your post is so helpful. Thnks.
<br>Bruce---I MAY have asked the same thing about the flowers as your wife did. But my H ahs never written a little poem for me. If I was used to his prose I'd probably know what he meant. My guess is that she thought it was a conditional message (I forget the last line of it,, but I could have taken it as poor ole me, I love you so much and don't get it in return) It may have helped you to make it an unconditional I love yu message.
<br>Patrick---kind of the same thoguths as I gave to Bruce, make it unconditional, don't LOOK for something in return, just keep plugging at it. I know it is hard. I run up against it myself. I try to unconditioanlly do something nice and gt no reassurance, it HARD. The other day at home I held my husband leg while we were watching tv, I was trying to get his attention to let him know that I'd be keen on the idea of having sex...I could have been holding a tree limb and gotten more reaction......so in my mind I figure he wants NO physical contact (which was definately the case that night!!) (So I didn't let it bother me that we had no intimacy, I don't want him to think everytime I touch his leg we HAVE to have sex)
<br>Good luck to all. I definately need you guys AND my prozac to make this marraige work.
<br><p>[This message has been edited by GBM.]

To Sreph,
<br> Or should I say Deb. My god you sound just like my wife, EXACTLY. We went to councling for about 6 months before our seperation 13 months ago. I continued to go after she quit, she was in that withdraw mode. My counciler told me that she would never return to me or anyone else because of a fear of intamecy. not sex per say but letting someone in for fear of getting hurt. I know she has dated but has no one special. I guess because because of that fear she wants nothing to do with that closness with me or anyone else for that matter. I was told the only way that she will return is for her to realize her fear and to understand it and face it which would be painfull in the beginning but with facing it would eliminate it as a fear. Kind of like driving a car. The first time we drive we're scared but after a wile we become comfortable and now its like auto pilot. I can bet that she is scared to death that if she came back my depression would strike right after things are good and she would get hurt again. Hey Steph does this sound like you. Dont tell me yet, tell me after you look in the mirror and get honest with your self then let me know what happens or what you think. I cant tell my wife to do this because i'm in it, but here i'm on the outside where I can see your situation from a different perspctive. Be honest and give it a try, I'm sure your husband loves you dearly.
<br> Ken

After reading the replys and other posts I have come to realilize that what is needed in my case I guess is a new courtship. My wife and I sat down this morning and listened to Dr Hartley's radio shows on this web site. They were very helpful to make us understand that it is really allright for us to think and have very different needs and also just how important it is for each of us to meet the other's needs without being so concerned if it is what we need at the time.
<p> We listened to the broadcasts and then had a very good talk about them and I believe and very much hope we have come to an understanding of why the love died and just what it will take to regain it. If you all have not done so allready I would very much encourage you to listen to the broadcasts closely. Very many words of wisdom their.
<p> My wife had the idea that she should never do things just because I wanted it or needed it but only if she wanted and needed it. We now know that it is ok to do for the other in order to deposit love units into their love bank and in return that makes the other person happy to do things in return. In other words a loving relationship is a give and take situation and the more love you give the more you will recieve.
<p>Anyway I think we may be on the road to recovery. We spent the day together, went shopping, held hands, kissed with no pressure to do anything else and had a great time, actually laughed and joked agian.
<p>Only time will tell but I assure you one thing I am going to give it my all because just the little progress today feels great.
<p>I'll post agian later and hopefully have good news. Good luck to all and I hope things turn for the better for all soon.
<p>What I have learned is to not give up hope and above all else don't give up on true love because it will survive if it is meant to be and if not take care of yourself first and you will get through the rough times and move on. Wish me luck.

RB, Thanks for some more encouraging news! It is good to hear of the progresses people make as well as the troubles that we all have! It makes it seem for us all like we might someday get to see that light at the end of the tunnel ...
<p>terri

Thank you all for the encouraging words. I am a lot more calm now and I see the wisdom in giving my wife patient, undemanding love. I've written her a long letter that I want to read to her, telling her that her recent statements to me have meant a lot, that I see now how distressful I was to her, that she should continue being as honest as she can with me no matter if it's bad news, and that I love her immensely and want nothing more than to be with her. And, if I have to wait for her love, I will, and not demand it or try to force my love on her. My expectations aren't high, but I feel good that they aren't high at this stage. Time will tell - but I want to thank you people who took time to respond and give me some encouragement.

GBM,
<p>Thanks for the straight shot. I think you may be right about the last line in that poem sounding like poor ol' me. I really didn't mean it that way but I can see how my wife might have seen it that way.
<p>I recently gave somebody the advice of not trying to figure your wife out. I wish I'd follow my own advice. Last night she assumed her usual perch at the computer. I went in the bedroom to lift weights.
<br>When she finaly got off a couple of hours later I went in to check my e-mail. While I was sitting there she came over to me and said I had a pimple on my back so she squeezed it.
<br>A little later my youngest son walks through the house sporting red lipstick marks on his cheek where his mom kissed him. When he showed it to me I said it must be nice to be able to get one of those.
<br>She asked me what was wrong. I said that though I was determined not to pick any fights or get upset that it was very diffcult to deal with the fact that your wife's only contact with you was to pop a zit on your back while strangers on a machine get loads of time and kids get free kisses.
<br>In the past she would just shake her head and walk off. But last night she said, "But that doesn't mean you won't get one later."
<br>Then she called one of her computer girl friends on the phone, telling me she would be off in a few minutes. Yea, right. That means an hour.
<br>So when she finally does come in the living room she lays down on my lap and says, "I know you're pissed. Can you forgive me." She says this while kissing me and grinning.
<br>I don't understand it at all.

GBM,
<p>Thanks for the straight shot. I think you may be right about the last line in that poem sounding like poor ol' me. I really didn't mean it that way but I can see how my wife might have seen it that way.
<p>I recently gave somebody the advice of not trying to figure your wife out. I wish I'd follow my own advice. Last night she assumed her usual perch at the computer. I went in the bedroom to lift weights.
<br>When she finaly got off a couple of hours later I went in to check my e-mail. While I was sitting there she came over to me and said I had a pimple on my back so she squeezed it.
<br>A little later my youngest son walks through the house sporting red lipstick marks on his cheek where his mom kissed him. When he showed it to me I said it must be nice to be able to get one of those.
<br>She asked me what was wrong. I said that though I was determined not to pick any fights or get upset that it was very diffcult to deal with the fact that your wife's only contact with you was to pop a zit on your back while strangers on a machine get loads of time and kids get free kisses.
<br>In the past she would just shake her head and walk off. But last night she said, "But that doesn't mean you won't get one later."
<br>Then she called one of her computer girl friends on the phone, telling me she would be off in a few minutes. Yea, right. That means an hour.
<br>So when she finally does come in the living room she lays down on my lap and says, "I know you're pissed. Can you forgive me." She says this while kissing me and grinning.
<br>I don't understand it at all.