.<p>[This message has been edited by Alice (edited 02-12-99).]

TimBobby,
<p>If she doesn't want to play ball then you can't make her. All you can do is play ball so well that she will be enticed to play with you again. That's easier said than done, but there seems to be no alternative if you want to keep your spouse.
<br>Maybe you sprang the questionare at the wrong time. Sometimes people aren't ready to hear the truth for whatever reasons. Perhaps there could have been some sort of preparatory stage. I don't know. Just speculating.
<br>From here on out just treat her the best you can. Let her see that you mean business. If she feels no pressure from you she may re-evaluate on her own and even get to where she will discuss it with you.
<br>Hope so. We're all looking for the answers here that are tailored for our respective situations. Join the club.
<p>

TimBobby:
<p>Bruce has sage words for you. I hope I might have a few more!
<p>I don't know if you believe in God or not, but even for those who don't, I think there is some great wisdom to be gained from the Bible, soI'm going to share some ideas with you from it.
<p>In the bible, it tells husbands to love their wives the way that Jesus Christ loved the church (Christians), giving Himself up for her (the Church is referred to in the feminine gender.) Jesus loved us enough to not only die for us, but to bear the weight of the sin of humanity in the process. That's pretty strong medicine, in my book. Are you loving your wife with a faithful love that is willing to sacrifice for her benefit?
<p>You are the one who read the book and suggested the survey, and I think that's wonderful and right! Good for you for initiating some solutions to the problems you are facing. Now it is up to you to continue leading the effort.
<p>Now, let me share that, from what you wrote in your post, I am left with the feeling that you had her take the test so that you could show her where she is not meeting your needs and that you feel she should change. If that was truly your attitude, then I can't blame her for being upset. I could be wrong here... just extrapolating from what you posted.
<p>The ball is in YOUR court, in my opinion. Just as Bruce said, you need to be the example now. You can't expect her to change without being willing to change yourself. If she sees that you are serious about meeting her needs, I'll bet she will be more than willing to meet yours. Another biblical concept is that putting the needs of others ahead of our own is the only sure way to peace and joy - and your own needs will be met in the process.
<p>Hoping for the best! God bless you!
<br>Singer

Hi TimBobby,
<p>I haven't "sprung" the questionaire on my wife yet. I think that with HER having read the book (maybe even reading "Give & Take" as well) she won't have the background to accept what you are saying about your physical needs. It sounds like she's putting herself in the place of judging how valid your needs are. (Picture getting her survey back and saying "Waht do you mean I don't say I love you enough? I tell you I love you twice a week, that's plenty!" When she needs to hear it 12 times a week. get it?)
<p>I'd say have her read the book. I think it adds a sense of legitimacy to the questionaire, and gives her reasons to see that only YOU can be the judge of how well your needs are being met. I think that "hearing it from someone else" (Dr. Harley) will impress her more than hearing it from you. Not that she doesn't trust you, just that in her eyes, you're biased.
<p>Let me know if that makes sense or if I've missed the point!
<p>Val
<p>PS (I added this) Singer has some good points - you should certainly be willing to change as well. You do need to get your wife to "see where you're comming from" however. For that, I think having her read the book will work wonders.<p>[This message has been edited by V.]

TimBobby,
<p>I've done the surveys under the 'supervision' of Steve Harley. If your wife is willing, I'd have her read either Give and Take or Lovebusters before His Needs/Her Needs. But the rules (for my case) for doing the surveys were:
<p>1. Do LoveBusters first (the rule of protection).
<p>2. Once you've learned how to effectively eliminate Love Busters, then tackle the emotional needs.
<p>If you try doing the emotional needs and it comes as a surprise to the other person, you're in line for a helping of angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements.
<p>When going over these surveys with your spouse, you are to listen to her 'needs' or 'lovebusters' without comment, unless you need some clarification. No defending yourself. No blowing up. Just listen and take notes. And the same rules apply vice versa.
<p>After you're done, you need to jointly make plans to fill those needs, using the policy of joint agreement. But you must NEVER gain at your wife's EXPENSE. For example, if your need is for sex once a day, and she's only interested in once a month, you need to discuss it with her, but don't force her into an unwanted comprimise. Try to find solutions to your problem that you can both agree on.
<p>You'll find that your wife is much more willing to meet your needs if she's in love with you, and that'll happen when you start meeting her needs. But one of you has to start.
<p>Good luck. It's a process that involves pain, but the endpoint is well worth it.

K, thanks for posting this, it is GREAT advice! I would never have thought about the significance of the order of presentation of these ideas.

n/c<p>[This message has been edited by TimBobby (edited 02-11-99).]

TimBobby:<p>If she's willing to read the book, I don't think you need to do it together (unless she wants to and the two of you want to discuss it in a respectful way---and it might be *too* soon for that). Bring this up respectfully to her, and let your focus be on eliminating the love busters that bother her; see what the reaction is.<p>If you throw her the book and say "I think you need to read this, too..." you're setting yourself up for another round of fighting.<p>When I first was presented with all the information in these books and at this website (this was immediately after discovering my wife's affair), I thought "Cool: here's what I do to hurt my wife, and here are the needs she should meet for me to feel better". <p>It's really easy to get into the unmet needs part. It's taken me some time to learn the protection (Lovebusters) habits; and if you're in a marriage where these have been present for a long time, you need to do a serious job at eliminating them, and establish a good historic record (months) of maintaining this committment. Then, your spouse is going to be much more open to meeting needs. But everytime you smack each other with a love buster, you're hurting your chances to really 'deposit' in the love bank, even if you're occasionally doing the 'right things' to meet each other's needs.<p>Without going over my story in detail, it's been over a year since I discovered my wife's affair. The affair has only been over for a few months. "We're" expecting a child from it. And finally we're at the point where we're discussing the 'needs' issues in a very respectful tone: where she doesn't feel like I'm dictating the rules or trying to take advantage of her.<p>To me that's miraculous progress. But it's taken lots of time, patience, and establishing that 'solid' track record. This isn't an overnight process (usually), but it 'builds habits that last through a lifetime of marriage'. Take it easy, and express to your wife that you major goal is to make this marriage the best it can be (for her): if you achieve that goal, it's very likely you reap the benefit of having a marriage that's great for you, too.

Good thread topic, TimBobby! I too, recently finished HNHN. Very enlightening! I think I've learned a little more about my wife, what she needs from me, and why she thinks/feels the way she does. (Of course, we never figure them out totally, right guys? LOL) Anyway, I'd like to get my wife to read it, but I DON'T want to come off sounding like: "Here, honey. Please read this so you can meet my needs." (The book's hardcover and it would hurt when she threw it back at me!) If she does read it, then I guess we'll both do the surveys.<p>I'm ready for my next Dr. Harley book. I was going to get Give and Take, but maybe Lovebusters would be a logical next step.

Doug:<p>The books are cheap, get 'em both. And that way, you have something to 'return fire' with should your wife brain you with HNHN...<p>Seriously though, Give and Take has elements of both Love Busters and HNHN's in it. I have all three and 'Surviving the Affair', and I find value in all of them. Now, if I could only get a commission...

z<p>[This message has been edited by TimBobby (edited 02-11-99).]

z<p>[This message has been edited by TimBobby (edited 02-11-99).]

I thought my wife was ready to do the love busters questionaire, and set it out for her to complete. At least she left the impression she WOULD do this for me so I could eliminate the love busters.<p>I came home from class & the kids were bouncing off the walls (10:00pm) mom was sleeping, my clean house a total mess -blah blah blah.......<p>After getting everything squared away & kids in bed, I was finally able to sit down and see the results of the questionaire. She didn't answer any of the 30 questions and numbered the love busters 1 - 5.<p>Obviously she didn't read a thing, skipping to the last page, & randomly numbered the categories.<p>What now? I haven't said anything to her about it but I need to know why? I've been unconditionally giving for some time now and I need to know how to get her to participate. I know of some issues which I've already taken care of (been consistant for months) but she needs to give me more to work on.<p>I can see in her eye at times the loving wife I had, and sometimes what I see is a scared look. (reasons? dunno. there is no OM or OW.)<p>Any input?<br>chance

Chance,<p>What you see is most likely a scared look. I'm not saying that you were an awful husband but from a wifes point of view, it's scary to trust again. I am, in my own words, terrified, afraid and scared. I'm not sure this is how it is for your wife but I don't want to be hurt again. There is no guarantee that things won't get bad again. Everyone calls this the rollercoaster ride and that is just what it is. I know it feels that way for you. I think one big message given out is have patience. Give it time and give her room. Some one once told me not to push my H into a corner because then I force his hand and I may not like the result. Example will teach much faster than words. I see the men in this forum trying so hard to make things right but I see them also wanting to be able to fix it now. It's like they say, OH I see the problem well it's fixed now lets move on. Most women do not work this way. For me it is a wait and see arrangment. He makes promises to me and I give him a chance to prove that he intends to keep them. Some things I believe will continue because they were minor. The big problems I don't have as much faith in. Not only that but when there is a time that he does not come through with his promise it is not just one step back, for me we start all over again. Each time he lets me down the hole to climb out of gets deeper, no matter how far we had progressed. He tells me all the time that he is trying but I guess our definitions of trying are different. I hope my rambling helps you some. I am just as confused as the rest. My prayers are with you. Good Luck! <p>Steph

Nine months after I found out about my husband's affair, I read HNHN. My eyes were opened! I then gave it to my husband and asked him to read it. He did, then asked, "What was I supposed to get from that book?" (Groan!) Apparently none of it sunk in. Here we are, almost two years later, still having problems.

z<p>[This message has been edited by CarlLaFong (edited 02-12-99).]<p>[This message has been edited by CarlLaFong (edited 02-12-99).]

My comments go back to some of the earlier comments in this thread, but from my perspective this almost seems like a catch 22. I can recognize that I am acting inappropriately in my marriage, but my behavior is the only thing that keeps us focused that there is a problem. If I use the love buster philosophy, my wife no longer sees a problem so she stops putting in an effort. She stops and I get more depressed which brings us right back to where we started. What do others think? Is there ever a use for tough love in a failing relationship? This would seem to be in contradiction with this philosophy.

z<p>[This message has been edited by CarlLaFong (edited 02-11-99).]

Carl,<p>I always take with a grain of salt the attachment of labels to people like "fixer-uppers" or anything else. Everytime this is done it automatically places limits on how that person is perceived. Such labels may have limited value in helping one to understand a personality trait or phase someone is going through, but otherwise those labels tend to become self-fulfilling prophcies.<br>For an author to attach such labels and then to call the marriage hopeless says more to me about the chutzpah of the author than about any real understanding of human relationships. Not that there aren't marital situations that are "hopeless". It's just that I harbor a special disgust for some of these "experts" who seem to care more about appearing as though they have THE explanation for things than they do about really understanding human relationships.

Carl:<p>I agree with Bruce's last post 100%! I would take ANYTHING written by Dr Laura Schlessinger (the author of the book you're reading, '10 Stupid Things...') with a HUGE grain of salt! On her radio show, this supposed expert insults her caller's intelligence, and the legitimacy of their feelings, and offers 15-second solutions from the lofty moral high ground she CLAIMS to occupy (but has no right to). IRL, we all know blowhards like her, and we learn to either ignore them, or give them the 'one-finger salute', and THEN ignore them!<p>Oh, did I mention that I don't care for her opinions?