I need help from those of you who say I sound just like your wives. You say that when the explosion hit it was your wake up call and you changed and did the things you needed to do and now you are not getting a response from your wife to let you know that she recieves you and the changes you have made. I've seen Bruce, Bill and others say that they would love more affection and attention. You have also stated that when you initiate this you get pushed away or turned down in some other fashion. The more I read from you all the more I began to see myself in your wives. My question is this. From your outside view of the wall I have built around my heart, What can I do to bring it down? I'm so afraid of the hurt and the pain coming back that I'm finding it very comfortable in my dark, quiet, SAFE world that I have created for myself. Please help me out.<p>Steph

This may sound simplistic, but it is what all of the relationship books I've been reading have stated: If you act a certain way, you can become that way...<p>Dr. Harley uses a kind of two step process in helping couples recover from infidelity, and I am seeing more and more evidence from people posting here that the damage done by a depressed spouse who is unaware of his or her condition or refuses to get treatment for his or her condition is *very* like the damage done by infidelity. It seems like it takes the same kind of approach to help in the recovery process.<p>The first step is to identify the love busters in your relationship and then to eliminate them. This makes it more comfortable for you to be with each other. <p>The second step is to identify both spouses' emotional needs and then to do things to begin to meet the most important ones (say, 1-3). As you begin to meet each other's needs, I think you will find that the wall will begin to come down on its own.<p>Until you eliminate the love busters in your relationship, there is no closeness or trust in it. Emotional needs cannot be met until the bad stuff is gone.<p>As I said, it sounds simplistic, but maybe it's time for you and your H to fill out the Love Busters Questionnaire?<p>I hope this has helped some.<p>terri

Steph,<p>This is just the problem for the man, how that wall looks from the outside. To me, and to other men as far as I can tell, it looks like a cold, calculated wall of ice. To us it doesn't have to be there. And because we feel that it persists in spite of our passionate efforts we begin to develop a rage about it. From that proceeds outbursts of anger which drive you further away.<br>What saved me in this regard was a conversation I had with my sister. She explained to me (having gone through problems in her marriage) that what appears to be coldness is a defense mechanism. I was looking at it as a deliberate and unecessary weapon against me. She said it was one of the only ways the woman could defend hersself psychologically. That was when I decided to put my best efforts into avoiding all conflict and treating my wife in such a way that she would feel safe in letting the wall down of her own accord. Especially since it was clear that my attempts to bring it down with logical arguments weren't getting me anywhere.<br>One thing that I did tell my wife in the days when I was still arguing about it, and I believe I was right, was that she had gotten comfortable with living within that wall and that she was now grasping it with a selfishness that was no better than the selfishness I had exhibited that got me into trouble. I never pursued that argument any further, but I believe she did think about it.<br>I'm not sure what you can do to bring it down. Since it has become a safe mental haven whatever you do will feel risky to some degree. So I guess it comes down to are you ready to take a risk?<br>As for my part I realized that my wife would have to come to that point on her own, so I resolved to make the relationship feel that it was worth taking a risk for. I think that's the best the man can do. He's lost the wife's trust so, though he can't make her let him back into her heart he can provide the environment (through his actions)that will make her feel like she's taking the least amount of risk if she decides to let him in again.<br>Right now my wife has let me in again. Not fully, but definitely more than I had just two or three weeks ago. I'm not sure what all went into her decision to let me back in. I don't believe it was all based on my actions. But I know that a very significant part of it was.<br>Of course we haven't gone through the years of this that you have but I think it still boils down to the same thing.

Steph-- Once again I really relate to what you are saying.<br>It's amazing that my husband recently described me as cold. I really was flabbergasted---how did he thing I got that way!!<br>But not needing him is much easier. We have lived as co-workers for so long that that is what seems to be easiest and the least painful. But I think Terri is right, if you act a certain way eventually you'll start to feel that way (and fortunatley for me the Prozac is starting to give me the willpower to act that way---before I couldn't care less)<p>Mentally I try to do things I know will please my husband (whether it is having the house picked up before he comes home, or having his favorite meal or doing one of his chores that he dreads) I know that every little bit I can do that is for HIM will SOMETIME pay off. It wont' be instant, but I think I am building up a love bank. I think others had said it here before (probably even you)---just TRY to forget about your own wall and concentrate on your "duties" and maybe it will all fall in place. (I am trying to do just his myself)

Steph,<br> I feel that fear and trust are the briks that make up my wife's wall. She once told me that I had no idea how much I hurt her. She was right I had no idea but I do now because she told me so. Trust on the other hand is something I screwed up because two other times before this we seperated once for a week and the other for a month. Both times I had no idea of what the problem was except she needed space and when I returned I was a little nicer for a while but reverted back to my selfish behavior not really knowing what my issues were. I think she had me return too early, I dident get much of a chance to look at my self to see where I was failing as a husband. Just the fact that I was going to return home made me feel comfortable that things would improve on thier own. Well this time I took suggestions from her and got help, even more than she expected and she tells me what a good guy I am and how good I'm doing. She's told me she respects me now but she has not told me that she trust me with her feelings, but she trust me with every thing else. When's the other shoe going to drop is her attitude. I have been to thousands of hours of support groups, thearpy and can easily see whats going on with her but she does not want to hear it from me. So that being said I would tell my wife or you, that 80% of the problems are knowing what they are and admitting to them. The other 20% is doing something about them. Fear is a snow ball feeling the more you run from it the more you fear it and the less comfortable you are with it. When I first started trying to improve myself I had to admit that I was like a scared child, I had so many fears it was a joke, I feared fear thats how bad I was and had no self esteem at all. I thought if my wife dident like me who would? 13 months later I have lost almost all my fears, maybe all of them. I dont fear loosing my wife for good because I understand that things happen for a reason and that maybe I needed this long an [censored] kicking to straighten my self out. Facing your fear can really be a rush once you get the courage to do it, no matter what it is every time I did it it was a rush and gave me self confidence. One example was I was affraid of heights so I asked some friends that sky dive if they would take me along. Needless to say I was having a heart attact but I closed my eyes and jumped and was very happy to have my feet touch the ground. I dont know If i want to do it again but I'm not affraid of it. I'm still a little shakey at heights but not fearfull. The more you do something comfortable you get with it. Maybe your comfortable with your wall up. Take it down a little and get comfortable with it and your self. 95% of things you fear will happen never happen anyway. Garuntee you'll feel good with your self for facing a fear and by doing so be more comfortable facing other fears. Hope this helps. It helped me.<br> Ken

Terri,<p>I have read everything that Dr. Harley has written to my H. He thinks it all sounds fine but he doesn't think there is a problem. He does not understand why I am unhappy (even when I spell it out for him). We are going to couseling but when she tells him all the things he needs to do he says he is not going to do any of them until he sees improvement in me. I don't, can't, or won't have any improvment until he changes. He will not admit that he has a problem. I know it is not just him but I'm the only one that even admits that they are there. I've spent six years being a giver and I'm not sure how much giver I have left in me.<p>Bruce,<p>I have one question for you. If you had not made the changes you say you made do you think your wifes wall would have come down?<br>Like I told Terri above, my husband doesn't think this is any of his responsibility. My fear is that I will let this wall down just to be attacked because he has done nothing to make me think otherwise. In fact he seems to be building his own wall.<p>GBM,<p>I know what you are saying and I have tried that route...two or three times. Even now I don't expect anything of him and often do things that are just for him. Only to be told that I don't have to or shouldn't have. So you see, even when I do try to reach out to him I am blown off or pushed away. My thought is that he is not really better from his depression. If that is the case then I have doubts that he will ever be better. And if that is the case, I don't know if I can go through that again. I wish you luck in your marriage. I think if you are both trying and both see what the problems are then you can overcome. My prayers are with you.<p>Ken,<p>Funny you should mention fear. At our first therapy session I mentioned that I was afraid and he could not even begin to see or understand why I would be. I have a question for you. Do you think that you would have realized what was going on with you wife had she not asked for the separation? Is it possible for me to get him to see what I'm feeling and going through and still be in the same house as him. We still have sex all the time because my needs for that are stonger than his and I think that because of this he gets the idea that everything is ok. For most women this would be the case but for me it is not. You say that 80% of the problem is knowing them and admitting that they are there. Well talk about hitting the nail on the head. If he is unwilling or unable to do this then what hope to I have of making this better. Why should I let that wall down without hope. Is it going to take me leaving for him to see? I know that if I leave then it is over because of his nature he will become the victim of a wife who didn't understand him. He wants me to stay but keep things the way they are. I can't do that. I have no more energy to be the mom, dad, groundskeeper, housekeeper, nanny, cook, handyman, accountant, and anything else that needs to be done. I have nothing left to give except me and I'm not willing to sacrifice me.<p>Thank you all for your replies. They have really made me think. Good luck to all of you.<p>Steph<p><p><p>

Steph,<br> Q o you think that you would have realized what was going on with you wife had she not asked for the separation? <br> A:No I think I would have stayed the way I was because she was affraid to say how she felt. For fear of my responce and reaction. Just like your worring about his reactions right now.<br> Q:Is it possible for me to get him to see what I'm feeling and going through and still be in the same house as him. <br> A: Sure its possible just be sure you know what you want and express those feelings and thoughts to him, but know that if he's not going to make some consessions what your willing to do for your self; seperate? Dont make threats that you cant back up. if your that sick of it you'll go for it. if your not ready for that out come you will be in the future.<br> You could just stop doing things like the yard, checking, dont do his wash, let him do it for his self. Your not responsible for his feelings. I can see your burnt out and approaching where my wife was. Bring out the issues and discuss them, dont argue. Rember a fight takes 2 people, if you dont feed into it, it cant happen. I see it as pay me now or pay me later and i can tell you that the pain of later is horrible. i feel it every day for 13 months with no end in sight. I only know that things dont last for ever, be good or bad. I was told flat out by my counceler to grow some balls! so i did, small as they may be i now have a pair. ( hope my humor wasent taken in the wrong way)Good luck and God bless, I know its tuff I had to learn the hard way.<br> Ken

Ken,<p>I don't want him to leave me. I don't want this to end. If I let things fall and don't do things and confront him with the problems he may just say to H*** with it and leave me. Then what?? I'm so afraid of losing him that I don't know which is the lesser of the two evils. The three times I have tried to be completely honest with him and give it to him staight his only response was that he would leave so I could be happy. I don't know if he is afraid to work on it or if he just doesn't want to work on it. Right now I don't know what to do. I live it one day at a time and pray that god will be with me and see me through. My counselor thinks it can be saved if he will give but he's yet to budge. Thank you for your help. <p>Steph

Steph - my counselor says the same thing about me and my husband that it can probably be saved if HE wants to help. But he will not. He thinks counseling is a joke; he thinks everything is fine the way it is. I, like you, am everything. The taxi service for all 3 kids, the cook, the maid, the cleaner, EVERYTHING. Sometimes with little ones in school and homework and sports its so overwhelming and then he sits there in front of TV watching wrestling. THATS whats important. Its driven me nuts.

Steph,<br>Like the others, my wife has built that wall around her heart. She admits that she finds it difficult to let me in. She is afraid. She doesn't want to be hurt again. She feels that I let her down, and will again. I can only re-inforce that I will always be here for her.<br>But, something else occured that helped her open up. We had decided to tell the kids that there are issues between us, that did not concern them. I wanted to let them know that we still loved them, despite what was going on. So, when the time came, my wife broke down. Crying to me for the first time in months. She swore she would try harder. Show emotion, intimacy, talk more. She became open and vulnerable. I don;t know whether it was the reality of telling the kids, or that she was more afraid of letting them know anything, than she was of me. <br>I still don't know if she can do it, yet. It took many years to build up that icy wall of protection. I don't expect to melt it overnight. Both of us agree that it will take time.

Bill,<p>I think I would be more than willing to let the wall come down if my H made half the efforts that the other men in this forum seem to be making. I would tell the whole world what was happening if I could. Then I could get some physical support instead of cyber but that would make things really bad for my H. I have almost come to the decision that I would have to ask for a separation to see if that would wake him up (although I don't want one) but he told me this morning that his work is laying some people off in Dec. and they will find out in two weeks. You see, I can't have problems because he can always top me. If I'm sick he is sicker (if that is a word). If I'm unhappy he is worse. I can't ask for a separation when he is going through this. So I will sit here and wait and pray and hope that I can survive for the sake of my kids. Thank you all for your support. It helps even if it doesn't sound like it.<p>Steph