My wife & I will be married 9 years Nov 21, with 2 wonderful children that know mom & dad aren't getting along well. She is a workaholic (like her father & more than likely because of our relationship) and happy with her job. At least she is home everynight - no affairs. We both have enough respect not to stray. We recently discovered our 6 yo daughter (& our son is 8) listening outside our bedroom door while I was trying to "investigate" and with hope, (not to mention a miracle) she'd talk to me. Instead, the typical "you're beginning to piss me off - this is why it won't work" routine begins & the communication is down. If I were to be persistant, only wanting to find a starting point, the routine would intensify to a major blow-out. I bite my tongue, leave the room and helplessly watch what means the most in my life slowly fade away. The next evening, when I was in class, my daughter gave her mom an earful about not helping daddy and how hard he's trying but you don't care.......the evesdropping from the morning before.... That blew the hopeful thought we had - keeping it from the children. We took care of that and I'm praying it's not just a temporary "fix". Needless to say, she just doesn't want to get into it, nor deal with it. I just go about my new & improved daily routine I've adopted since I seem to feel things aren't moving - yet, (not to mention I'll be done with school by summer and this thought has passed my mind - Am I outta here when I'm done with school?) hopefully emitting positive energy - getting the wife & kids up and around, fed and off to work & school along with all the other daily housework that need attention. My homework fits in there between loads of laundry, dishes and the kids homework. My wife & I still sleep together(barely) & have had no sex for at least a month -the longest we've gone. I have totally changed from a taker to a giver and enjoy giving. There is a feeling of fulfillment I get knowing my family is happy. I guess my eyes have finally opened, but she has no drive at this point. She says she loves me but not like a wife should love her husband. That was a bombshell from nowhere a little over a year ago. We talked & I told her I understood that I smothered her & control was another issue identified. Finally, a starting point!. I worked hard to keep some distance to avoid smothering her looking for a light at the end of the tunnel or any other possible confrontation. I also encouraged her to meet up with some girlfriends & go have some fun. It seems that after a news report about a "Mr.Mom" filing for divorce from his successful wife looking to be granted custody and all else like the wife would receive when she was home providing the essential care. I hope she isn't waiting for me to burnout and giveup, because I know what I have(had) and I'm willing to do anything WE have to do to recover from this low point in our lives. <br>I visited Marriage Builders' site for the first time yesterday and found common place that strikes home. Resentment over Issues of Control, Dependency and Identity --- Gosh, what a mouthful =-/ I know & have admitted that, in the past, I have been a controling selfish FOOL, blind to the doom I was sending our relationship into.<br>She knows I love her very, very much. She also knows I'm willing to put forth whatever it takes for her to love me like a wife should lover her husband again.<br>Last week was the last we talked about our problems & she seemed optimistic - we agreed on the weekends - we each make plans on one of the days for a couple of hours to have individual time. I found this site yesterday and read through about everything that has to do with my relevence. I've found possible solutions to be the key for our happieness. I printed out what I had found to share with her. I waited until the kids were in bed and showed her the information I printed & told her of the bookmark for more info. She said she wanted to read it in the morning because she was on the verge of sleep.... Morning came & nothing. I mentioned not a word until I was about to go to a friends house for a few hours later in the afternoon. I said to her, "Hey honey, I'm on my way to John's for a couple of hours, ok?" She said alright and then I asked her if she was going to read the printouts and tell me what she thought of them. She said that she would. When I returned later, the kids were out playing and she was in her spot, laying on the couch. We briefly chatted before I asked if she got to the printouts. She read 2 or 3 paragraphs on 2 different pages & said that she wasn't going to read anymore of it. Her reason: BECAUSE. I asked why she refuses to read it and BECAUSE doesn't help me find solutions. She said, BECAUSE I'm not going to read it. <br>What do I do now, other than burn-out & give up on our future?<br>How can I interest her to read something that could save our relationship?<br>I'm lost, lonely, drowning & I the only person I could turn to isn't in love with me anymore. Where do I go from here? <br>Sorry for rambling, but I just needed an ear or 20 to unload on. Hope to hear something positive(for a change)to keep my drive alive!<br>Desperately trying and getting nowhere, chance

Hi Chance,<br>My suggestions are-<br>1.Tape the forum to the bathroom mirror.<br>2.Sit her down, hold her arms and tell her, I love you...<br>3. Ask her if she loves you, if she says yes, then ask why?<br>4.Do you think she is a little resentfull for you staying at home and her working? Is she getting pressure from others like"what does your husband do?" "What did he do before school?<br>Have you sent her flowers in awhile??<br>Leave a love note in her panty drawer. Leave one under her pillow or favorite book.<br>Make her feel like the most single most important person in the world.<br>Ok, you set some time for yourselfs seperately, now set some time to be together, under no condition will you be apart during this time....<br>Good luck and stick with it..you have a drive,,,let her see it....

Chance,<p>From what I read in your post you don't have any reason for real discouragement yet. Believe me I know what you are going through. But if you and your wife have agreed to doing something like spending time together then you have a lot to look forward to.<br>You seem to have taken the right steps in learning not to press her too much, but now you need to take it a little further. I know it is very maddening when she will not even do what seems to you a simple thing like reading the stuff you printed. You think it wouldn't take much to do that and here you are so eager and willing to do anything to make it all right.<br>Your safest route is to not EXPECT ANYTHING from her for now. It can drive you nuts I know. Sometimes you may have to go somewhere alone and find a punching bag, a crying towel, whatever you need. But for now just don't look for anything from her.<br>I used to try to get my wife to read things, too. Once I asked her if she would read Give and Take, one of Dr. Harley's books, which I'd just read. She said she would and Ileft it on the TV so she'd see it on the way out the door.<br>I called her later that day at work and she said she had looked at it and that it was interesting. In my desparate state I was inwardly leaping for joy. But that day was the only day she looked at it and it was making me mad that she didn't seem to want to put forth the least effort to resolve this thing.<br>The only way you can handle it is not to smother her while doing wverything you can to show your love through action. And al the time you can't expect her to respond in the way your heart is screaming for her to respond. A difficult task, I'm here to tell you, and one I failed at a number of times before I finally realized it was this or lose her for sure.<br>It sounds to me like she has not given up on the relationship though she acts the way she does. If you give her the room to breathe without putting any requirements on her it seems to be the best way to let a woman get herself together. My own wife acted much like yours. Though our relationship is not to where I'd like it to be we are at least on a better level than we were a month ago. She has gotten noticably more cordial and affectionate. Mind you not like it used to be, but a lot better than she's been in recent months. She didn't start responding that way until I really left her alone.<br>So try that and use the forum to vent and relate progress. I think you have every reason for hope.

Thanks Dawn & Bruce for your input! I need anything I can get to feed my drive. <br>I think going to school does have impact, she is the breadwinner and has been for a couple of years. Since I don't "work" & her present state is as it is, I would think so. She knows school is almost done & how anxious I am to get to work! I'm a hard worker. I'm an ex marine, used to work off shore on the oil/gas rigs off long beach & Santa Barbar Channel for a few years which gave us plenty of away time sometimes working 7 days on & 7 days off. By the 5th day off I was ready to get back to work and she was ready for me too. All her uncles & her father have worked in the oil fields all their lives, so she's used to the time away. All the aunts would get together while their husbands worked. I've been into construction etc that's why I'm going to school, to use my brain for a change of pace. I started school becaused I senced things needed some sort of change. We talked and she supported the whole idea from the start.<p>time together is kinda touchy, I guess this is where I must emit my positive energy act as if everything is ok, but don't ask or expect anything? Should I wait until she wants to talk? How do I know I'm even in the right ball game? She hasn't opened up to give me the chance. As it is, she basically has to do nothing when she's home from work, but relax. Usually her girlfriend inconcideratly calls at dinner time, they talk for a few hours missing dinner with the kids & me then shortly after, sleeping. I don't ***** about it and make a big deal, like in the past, trying to fix things. I just don't know!!!<p>Sometimes it seems so hopeless, like being sucked under the surface of COLD dark water, until I cannot hold my breath any longer, then returned to the surface for the long over-due breath of fresh air. She basically hasn't been touching me for a few months and apparently stopped offering sex. I wouldn't ask, but she knew when she did see a hint or two -no more than that- it has been a couple of weeks since... and we'd kinda go through the motions, nothing before, nothing after except a polite thank you and I love you overflowing with sincerity and passion, only to hear the exact words in return like a far away echo. When we did, it wasn't like the remembrance of long past daily fun in the bedroom. We still sleep together probably because I never ask for sex, but when we head off for bed (usually I have to politely wake her up because by 8:00pm, she's about asleep and the kids crash at 8:30. I get them taken care of & tucked in bed, by then the wife's out. At this point, lately I look for a quiet place to just ball up and quietly sob) as she gets comfortable in that last position just before falling asleep, she'll roll over in a loose spoon position & put her arm around me. She may not know she does it, but when she does I fall fast asleep. Sometimes I get cold looks or replies, few times I sence some warmth from a look or reply, mostly it's like looking into a blank face and hearing a momotone reply. Only when I've tried to talk with her and she gets angery do I hear the big "D" word but not everytime. I'm so confused. I don't know what to do! Thanks again for letting me vent. I feel better knowing there are people out there caring enough to share & help strangers in their lowest point of miserable life.<p>chance

Chance? You bet. Do you think you could persuade her to go away for the weekend to some really special place without the kids? Just to hang out, light conversation, fun stuff, and then see if she will open up to you to more? Is she still affectionate, as in are you still sexually active with each other? It doesn't sound like it. Work is a great way to avoid issues and how we really feel, lots are buried inside. Pray for her, and don't push her right now, see if you can get her excited about going somewhere....to get away from the same old routine. Sometimes we get so caught up in other "stuff" we sttart shutting down, which is what she has done to cope. What kind of things did you used to do together as a couple? Will she go for a spontaneous picnic,<br>something totally out of the ordinary. If her dad was/is a workaholic that may be the only way she knows how to cope with feelings, her father taught her that one. I don't suppose she would be thrilled with some sexy sleepwear huh? Hang in there, I will pray for your family. I know it is like pulling teeth when you want to communicate with your spouse and they aretight lipped, I have to leave my husband alon3e til HE starts talking, we are doing better, and like you, I send him emails of articles on this site, he says he reads them, I don't know. Cyberhug, JADE

chance, what you are going through seems pretty much "classic" in many senses ... I know that is hardly comforting, but maybe these words from a book I'm reading will help make it clearer:<br> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"When spouses are in conflict, they develop negative images or labels of each other ("He's insensitive"; "She's controlling") and scan their daily interactions for evidence which confirms these images. Even well-intended deeds are frequently misinterpreted to fit enemy classification. An angry wife may tell herself that the dozen roses sent by her husband are just a sign that he is feeling guilty. A husband who complains that his wife nags all the time might interpret her unusual show of support to do as he pleases as a sign that she must want something from him. Our prejudices color our perception."<br>Weiner-Davis, Michele; _Divorce Busting_ pg 127; Simon & Schuster, 1992.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><br>Weiner-Davis goes on to say that spouses often concentrate on the bad things about their relationships when they are unhappy about them. She believes, based on her own practice and that of others, that one person in a relationship can change the patterns of interaction. This book is an excellent resource if you are the only one trying to change things in your relationship with your spouse or SO. I believe that my changes have affected my relationship, but I'm not sure how as of yet. I know my H is not running out the door to get away from me, but neither has he given up his plans to leave. I don't know how it has affected his relationship with the bimbo, but I believe that it will affect it at some point down the line. I believe, based on things he has told me, that he has no real committment to her - that she is a convenient outlet for his needs. She cannot meet all of them, probably not even more than one or two of the more important ones. I'd love to get him to sit down with me and fill out the Emotional Needs Questionnaire - it would help me to see what I can concentrate on to deposit love units. I believe that he has left a little crack open in his love bank, which means it might not be a simple thing for the love units to get in there, but if I'm careful and aim them just right, and work on putting them in that love bank by easing them into that little space he's left open, they will reach the love bank and eventually change the way he is looking at our marriage. I don't know how long this will take, and I will need a lot of help to be patient and endure a lot of loneliness in the meantime.<p>My point here, is that it is up to you to continue to eliminate Love Busters and to deposit as many Love Units in or as close to that Love Bank as you can. It's hard to eliminate Love Busters if your spouse doesn't indicate what it is that bothers them, but since they are pretty negative behaviors that can be considered relatively obvious in a lot of cases, work on eliminating the ones you can identify - it's pretty easy to recognize angry outbursts ... And if you can identify which needs you haven't been meeting and work on meeting those needs, that will help, too. I believe that I'm being guided here by some power stronger and more knowing than I. I believe that the books I've been reading all fit together - each gives major pieces of the puzzle and with all that I've been reading, I have enough pieces that I think I can recognize the picture. The pieces that are missing are the details of my own situation. Sometimes I believe I'm so close to my own situation that I can't see some of the pieces ... they are hiding there, just out in the periphery, tantalizingly close, but not yet recognizable. I need my spouse's help with finding these pieces, but he's not yet in a place where he is quite willing to help me find them. If I can get him to do the Questionnaire, that will help me figure out if the pieces I have found really belong to our puzzle!<p>I spoke to a mutual friend yesterday (one of the people that knew about my H's affair and didn't say anything), and commented that I don't think he's as certain about moving out as he thought he was before he told me about it. Today, I spoke to another mutual friend (another of those who knew) who has also said the same thing ... this particular individual is one who has not been positive about my relationship for a long time. To me, it is pretty telling that he has now come to the belief that there is uncertainty in my H's mind about his decision. I need to find a way to make that uncertainty grow...<p>Wish me good fortune ... and pray for us... And my prayers and wishes for good fortune are with all here at these MB forums ...<p>terri

Thank you very much and Good luck! <br>I told her today that I have a counciling meeting tomorrow morning & she was surprised. She said "good for you. I'm Glad." At least something positive. I also said that they wanted to know if we were both going in & I said "no just me." Maybe if she sees that i'm going, with everything else I put forth with a positive attitude, hopefully she'll change her mind, I hope!!! Then I asked if she would concider going. Her reply was "we'll see." It wasn't a NO! That was sunlight for the day... till her totally negative friend mentioned I should just give up, because she isn't happy, etc etc etc.... <p>I told her I was sorry she felt that way after 3 divorces, she should have learned something, but didn't. Then also told her that she has no idea about our relationship. She doesn't or didn't till this evening. they were on the phone & I got dumped on. After hearing the "friend's" remark about something she had no idea about, it bothered me. My wife had briefly mentioned our relationship being in jepordy earlier in the day 2 days ago. she called later to get the details that my wife didn't tell her and hasn't any desire to tell her, but I answered the phone. <p>She asked how I was & said, "holding it all together" her reply was, "well, if there isn't anything there it's over. Why are you together? Just get it over with instead of being room mates." !!!!!!! boy did I get pi**ed. I said, "hmmmm, she must have said something to you." I bit my tongue & said well, there is alot there you have no clue about. Don't you think our family, our kids, our well-being deserves an honest chance? Then I said I had to go. I called back later (*MISTAKE*) got the answering machine & left a message.<p>It bothered me knowing her good friend of 2 years felt like that. I really didn't know her too well but well enough, other than she needs something fixed all the time. I do it smiling. It makes the wife happy & before her friend knew... she always told my wife how lucky she is..... funny how things change. I've always done nice things for her.<p>My message:<br>I wanted to let you know that yesterday I felt hurt you feel so negitive about my relationship. I know you don't care for kids (ours included) but don't you think they deserve a fair chance for their mom & dad give an honest try without any extra negative opinions etc to worsen any hope? I'm not saying anything else other than let us have a chance and our family will be thankfull for your help in trying times. Don't think I'm blaming you for anything at all, I'm not - just hoping you're supportive of something that you said you wanted badly. I was just shocked to hear your reaction and NEEDED to gt it off my chest. It won't happen again."<p>She had the pleasure to my message to my wife. About then I came home & got dumped on. I said I don't know what you were told, but all I said was.... (it was what she heard on the machine) because what I told you she said yesterday to me when I found out you said something to her. <p>My wife must have found something in it because I'm still here. so much for the atta-boy I got earlier in the day<br>

chance, someone needs to take that so called FRIEND of your wives and knock her block off. Rest assured, she's got it coming "one day" when she REALLY faces the judgement day. I cannot believe that ANY friend would ever EVER encourage a relationship to break up. EVEN at the worst of times; there ARE ways to work things out. She is a loser and you were VERY nice by what you said. I would have told her SO much that she didn't want to hear. I am a mother of two boys who were involved in our divorce (thank god to this day we are very close to my ex and they see him almost daily) - but that woman has NO CLUE how a childs heart breaks at their parents parting, she has no idea how to deal with their hurt, their crying, their desparate PLEAS for their parents to reunite. She needs to be slapped and I wish someone would do it to her! I think I'd have "call block" put on my phone to alleviate her from ever contacting my home. <br>Those FRIENDS are the true enemies of families. <br>Sorry to come across so rude but that "really" ticks me off. <p>[This message has been edited by Cndy (edited 11-13-98).]

chance, a couple of comments, and they are meant constructively. Don't allow your wife's friend to engage you in any kind of verbal fencing ... you will lose. With your wife in withdrawal from you, anything you say to the friend will come back to her and reinforce her withdrawal. Just imagine that every thing you say to the friend, you are saying to your wife ... and imagine what it will sound like when it is repeated and the negatives are emphasized and magnified. It's obvious from what you are saying that the friend (or fiend, as Glenn might call her) doesn't much care for you - so she will go out of her way to make you sound bad.<p>The other comment is just a reinforcement to find some relationship books and read, read, read. Most of them contain the same concepts but they are all put in a different frame of reference, so there is something new to get out of all of them. I don't know how long you've been acting as "Giver", but just keep in mind that if you've been in "Taker" mode for a long time, your wife is not going to trust the "new you" right away (see my previous post). You will have to keep it up for a long time for her to realize that the change is permanent. She probably has built up a "wall" to protect herself from your Taker, and it takes a lot of effort to get that wall down.<p>I have found a lot of good information at this website, from several of the books that the Dr. Harley has written, and from a number of books recommended by others who frequent these forums. Use the forums' new search feature and find the posts referring to "wall" and those referring to "books" - I'll bet you'll get plenty of helpful information.<p>Wishing you much luck and happiness...<p>terri

Chance,<p>Not infrequently my wife relates stories to me that other women she knows are going through with their husbands. Most of the time they aren't good, usually involving the woman leaving because the man isn't doing his part. Sometimes though she does tell me about those who separated and reunited.<br>She was telling me about one of these last night. When she finished I said, "You know, I really don't like a lot of the input you get. So much of it seems to be negative and I know you internalize some of it against me. Please don't do that. Whatever my very real flaws I deserve the chance to be judged for what I do without having to pay for baggage someone else is injecting into this."<br>Surprisingly she paused and then said I was right, and she said she would try not to internalize anything against me. I also reminded her that in spite of what other men may be doing in their relationships she needed to remember that the man she's married to is not interested in being part of the problem, only the solution.<br>So we not only have to fight this battle directly with our wives, we have to suffer from the crap that idiots dump on our wives. Like Cndy I'd really like to slap one of them good and hard.

Thanks you guys! This really helps me cope, especially the really down days. That's when I'm in here reading & giving some input where it can help.<p>Cndy<br>I agree with you all the way!She has no right judging me the way she did, because I've never said a bad thing to her. I've been her Mr.FixIt since her & my wife met. She is a high maintenence friend that keeps my wife on the phone HOURS ignoring the kids when I'm not here. Not all her fault, mom should have better judgement than let her consume ALL her time before the kids go to bed. They are fed etc etc before I even go to school, so she doesn't even have to do that.<br>No matter what, I won't say another word to her knowing what she has already done. I think the wife sees what happened.<p>terri<br>You are right. All hell would break loose here if I did continue to talk to the wifes friend. Wifey said she won't come here to the house if I'm around. Iasked why? there isn't any reason for that. I never said anything to hurt her feelings. She must be guilty for some reason. I continued to tell the W that I'd still fix her car if she brings it here. I have no hard feeling about the W's friend. I just want no negative BS spewing from her mouth to the W.<p>Bruce<br>Isn't that the same negative BS that get's couples in bad situations? Not all people want to be treated the same..... Treat poeple the way THEY want to be treated. This is my primary target for now. I'm still hoping she'll open up a little soon. She's still looking at the end of the semester as the end of us. Is this where I suck it up and keep on giving no matter what she say in hopes of her to bring down the wall? <p>thanks again chance

Chance,<p>I think this is where you keep giving. The better things are at home the better you will look. I wouldn't stop what you are doing because she would just tell herself that she knew it wouldn't last. Be consistent and be you. As for the friend, prove her wrong. Show your wife that you are not the kind of men her friend has delt with. I know you are already doing this, just keep it up. Be strong and know that we are all here for you. Vent to us so you don't have to vent to your wife. My prayers are with you.<p>Steph

thank you all so very much! Today I went to seek help for me in the marriage. She was surprised I actually went. Hopefully, she'll go with me! The counciler asked if she would be attending, but I said not as of yet. <p>She was very nice to me today after work. She wanted me to do the xmas invitation for her work that she volunteered for, although I said I would help if she had questions about anything, I just ended up doing it. I smiled doing it too, even though she fell asleep on the couch - 7:30pm. When I was done, it was about 10:00 & still had to go to the grocery store! Good thing they are opened 24 hrs. <p>Now that they are all put away, & I came here to get my motivation, I can hopefully get SOME sleep! Good night all & god bless us!

I look at this post & see a very small step in the right direction and it's been about a month. <br>Hmmmmmmm<br>I hope by the time things are going like they should be we aren't retired & sittin in a convilecent home racing up & down the halls in our wheelchairs! =)